How to decide between nail down and floating floor?

[Ken Platt]

Folks -

I will be putting a floor in a small room in our house, a three-season/sunroom, about 200 square feet. It has been decided that we are going to use bamboo, in what they call the "stranded" form, probably 1/2 inch thick. (I can't use regular 3/4 inch thick because there isn't enough clearance under the doors).

The "subfloor" , which is the only floor at all in there now, is strip flooring - looks like fir to me, not any hardwood that I can recognize - laid straight onto the joists. It's in pretty bad shape, and not terribly flat, as well as being a bit uneven at the edges of some of the strips.

I've installed several floors in our house over the years, have a nailer (PC model) and am used to the process of nailing down tongue and groove wood floors. But there are a number of nice looking click-lock/floating options amongst the bamboo samples that we like, and I'm wondering about folks experience with these sorts of floors. Part of me feels that nailing down a floor just feels like the right way, but I wonder if the floating floor will cover the irregularities more easily, plus I'm a bit worried that the expansions of the wood soon-to-be subfloor and the strand bamboo will be different enough to be a problem if nailed. I am planning on laying the bamboo parallel to the current wood floor strips, but still.

Anyone have experience with these click-lock floating floors? Care to share? Much appreciated -

Ken
North Granby, CT

[Julie Moriarty]

About 20 years ago I laid down about 800 sq/ft of Pergo with glue joints. When we moved three years ago the floor still looked great. And the glue made the joints waterproof.

When we were getting ready to sell the house, I put Pergo click lock in the kitchen. Very easy to install but not nearly as indestructible as the glue stuff.

In the new house we installed about 900 sq/ft of CoreTec flooring (with 200 to go). It's completely waterproof. What we bought then telegraphed irregularities in the sub floor. Today they make thicker versions that, I believe, don't. What I'm most impressed with is how durable the flooring is. We're still remodeling and that floor gets abused occasionally. It's held up great. And since we live in Florida, we're always tracking in bits of sand. Even sweeping every day, I always get up some sand. I was really worried that might start to sand the floor but after about two years I've seen no evidence of that.

[George Bokros]

Just had a click lock floor installed. When they came to install it the put a straight edge on the floor and said the floor could not be installed because the floor was not flat. They had to put down a leveling slurry to fill in the low spots before the floor could be installed, of course there was an extra charge and a delay in installation. The glue together Pergo was not an issue on a sub-floor that was not flat.

This similar to what is required for a ceramic or porcelain tile floor.

Just thought I would share what I just experienced two weeks ago.

[Lee Schierer]

It is a multi consideration decision. Nail down floors will raise the floor height more than the laminates. This means that thresholds and doors opening to that room may have to be adjusted. Nail down floors use finishes that will tolerate wear for 10-15 years, some can be refinished some cannot. If you like real wood, laminates come close, but only have so much variation built in to the pieces.

[Jim Becker]

I personally like floating floors for this kind of situation...they are easy to install, look nice and take "movement" out of the question relative to what's under them. I've installed several and am about to do another in my small office in our home to provide a better surface for my desk chair.

[Ole Anderson]

We installed 800 sf of 12 mm (just under 1/2") nail down bamboo T&G in my son's home after pulling up the previous 3/4" oak with the v groove. Used a HF nailer. You had to be real careful to seat the gun properly or a slight bump would show where the nail distorted the thin flooring. Staples worked better than cleats. Overall a real nice install. An uneven subfloor will be a problem with any method. My finished basement/workshop floor is floating Pergo and looks nice too, just not as nice. Kitchen is nailed down bamboo, real nice. I laid click vinyl strips in my MH and had to come back two years later and glue all the joints with Gorilla glue to eliminate joints opening up due to temp extremes.

[Kev Williams]

9 years ago we remodeled the kitchen in the mobile home we bought 2 years before. We put down the cheapest floating tongue/groove flooring Ikea sells, was like $1.30 a sq ft. Some friends have been renting the place for about 4 years, before that one of our kids lived there. That floor still looks like the day I put it down, I'm quite happy with it. And it's NOT waterproof flooring, just need to wipe any splashes...
392173

About 5 years ago I put down floating glue-together vinyl flooring in our house cooking area from Home Depot. While the floating-floor part of it is okay, the crap keeps separating at the seams, especially near the fridge- which would be expected if we moved the fridge regularly, but we don't!
392176

Of course, you don't nail down this stuff, but I'm assuming part of the reason it's separating is BECAUSE it's a floating...? These aren't the only gaps either...

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I personally won't warranty a snap lock floor unless it's over a really flat subfloor. Some of it will unlock if it flexes, which is a pain to fix in the middle of a room. I've seen vinyl plank do it the most, but others will too. I'd recommend laying it across the grain from the subfloor, seams can cause you problems if they line up on both. I'm a nail it down type of guy, I like the better finished result. I'd also use full thickness and just cut down the doors, it's not hard to do.

[Robert Engel]

I think its best to remove the existing subfloor and replace with plywood.

We went with full thickness bamboo in our master bedroom addition. The installer used both nails and glue.

Needless to say, there is no squeaking. :)

Couple things I learned about bamboo: it is not as hard as you might think & don't use it in a damp environment, despite the fact is grass and not wood.

This would be a consideration if there is an outside door to the elements. You may want to have a tile landing area there.

[Alan Rutherford]

... I'd also use full thickness and just cut down the doors, it's not hard to do. Makes sense to me.

[Ken Platt]

I appreciate all the replies.

Ole, as it happens, I found cautions about using 16 gauge floor nailers - which I believe the HF gun is - as causing dimpling in the surface. If you are curious, here is https://www.ambientbp.com/blog/nail-down-bamboo-flooring one of those pages. I only know about the gauge of the HF nailer because I just learned about the dimpling/16 gauge issue, and of course my floor nailer is a 16 gauge (surprisingly difficult to learn what the gauge on floor nailers, often not listed anywhere). So, I've been checking prices on 18 gauge floor nailers. Definitely a "con" for nailing, as although I love buying tools, it'll be like $200 for something I have no other use for after this project.

Steve, I really appreciate your opinion. Opening up at those click-locks is a real concern - I've fiddled with samples, and I just have trouble seeing how such an easy-to-go-together joint can stay tight over time. In terms of "laying it across the grain", that seems contrary to all my instincts as a woodworker - the solid wood subfloor has to expand some and as I understand the makeup of this strand bamboo stuff, it's largely glue and won't expand at all, which seems a recipe for something giving out. Am I missing something here? Also, the shape of the room - rectangular - would make laying the new floor at right angles to the subfloor look wrong, and was firmly vetoed by my wife when I broached the idea. What do you think would be the problem if the seams lines up in a course or two? The current floor seems very sturdy, without any give at the seams that I can detect.

Robert, I thought about removing the current subfloor, but that one also got vetoed for a number of reasons. It's always nice to really do a project in the best way, but this is one of those times I have to settle for better rather than best.

For those with "click-lock" floors - when you walk on them, is there any loose feel, or "give" that you don't find with a nailed down floor?

Thanks -

Ken

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Steve, I really appreciate your opinion. Opening up at those click-locks is a real concern - I've fiddled with samples, and I just have trouble seeing how such an easy-to-go-together joint can stay tight over time. In terms of "laying it across the grain", that seems contrary to all my instincts as a woodworker - the solid wood subfloor has to expand some and as I understand the makeup of this strand bamboo stuff, it's largely glue and won't expand at all, which seems a recipe for something giving out. Am I missing something here? Also, the shape of the room - rectangular - would make laying the new floor at right angles to the subfloor look wrong, and was firmly vetoed by my wife when I broached the idea. What do you think would be the problem if the seams lines up in a course or two? The current floor seems very sturdy, without any give at the seams that I can detect.

Thanks -

Ken

Most houses built before sheet goods became widely available, used a diagonally laid wood subfloor. This subfloor is either shiplap, tongue and groove, or just boards. They then nailed the tongue and groove wood flooring to the subfloor, in a different direction than the subfloor. This made the floors behave better for several reasons. The main one though is because wood moves, especially construction grade material, and it will always take a new shape as it acclimatizes to the house humidity and temperatures. They used to use better wood, but even then the subfloors aren't made of pristine quarter sawn stock. Some of the stuff I uncover is downright ugly. By nailing the wood floors on a different direction, they were able to bridge the 1/8" bumps and divots that were inevitable, and the strength of the two layers made a sound flooring system. Nails can flex, and as the layers move, they can loosen, which is why real old wood floors can squeak.

I'm not aware of any click lock product that doesn't call for a really flat surface in their directions, and they all want you to install over a pad (some are built in) or sound linoleum. They use the pad to fill the inevitable little imperfections in the subfloor. The point is to give as even support as possible, which is good enough for most instances. Where you run into issues are on uneven or open seams, like room transitions, old wall lines, gaps in the subfloor, etc. The manufactures are careful about saying that any of these must be fixed before their flooring goes down, but the truth of the matter is, people who buy snaplock to DIY, usually can't identify a subfloor problem, so people like me get called when it fails.

I should have specified the problem with parallel overlapping seams. Most wood subfloor isn't really flat, and if there is a 1/16" bump at the seam, it'll wiggle the clicklock seam for the entire length, each time it's stepped on. The pad won't stop this because the unsupported length is too long, and it will actually be cut by the seam in high traffic areas. This will unlock (usually ruin) the little tiny joint. By laying a different direction, the seam only works the clicklock at the intersection of the seams, and it holds up better. You said your floors are very level, so you probably don't have to worry about it, but it can be a problem, so check those seams well if you are going parallel. Usually a bouncy seam can be tightened up with some screws.

The #1 reason I use solid, full thickness, nail down flooring on most of my houses, is that I have tremendous flexibility in the install. I can make a piece fit with the table saw, I can patch bad spots without disassembling the whole floor, I can adjust the tongue and grooves as needed, etc, etc, etc. I can also install it faster than clicklock, and it definitely feels more solid than any floating floor. If I want a fast floor, buy it prefinished and it's done when the last nail (actually I usually staple) goes in.

[Patrick Walsh]

Just a few short years go I had been working for custom home builders doing different carpentry related tasks mostly finish work but not only finish work.

For the last couple years I have been working for a custom cabinet shop. Point is I have been in and out of custom and mostly high end homes for the last twenty years.

I’ll keep it simple. Imop anything but a real hardwood nail down floor is nothing more than junk. I see the floating be it glue down or true floating being used in the semi high end custom market. But guys true doing quality high end work would never even consider using uanything but nail down hardwood.

The stuff is junk, what happens when the floors buckle, what happens when they do get to beat up and need refinishing and you can’t refinish them or in some cases you can maybe refinish them once. Not to mention if they are installed under all your built in cabinetry as traditionally they are installed.

Seems to me it’s just another trans in the direction of everything is designed to last ten years then go in a dumpster. Twenty if you are lucky.

[Lee DeRaud]

The glue together Pergo was not an issue on a sub-floor that was not flat.I replaced a 19-year-old glued Pergo with click-together Pergo last year during my kitchen remodel: both had the same requirement for flatness, 1/8" over 8' IIRC.

[Lee DeRaud]

About 20 years ago I laid down about 800 sq/ft of Pergo with glue joints. When we moved three years ago the floor still looked great. And the glue made the joints waterproof.

When we were getting ready to sell the house, I put Pergo click lock in the kitchen. Very easy to install but not nearly as indestructible as the glue stuff.
I went through a similar exercise in my kitchen/family-room. Yeah, the new stuff is easier to install than the old stuff, but it's all relative: "push-and-click" felt more like "pound-and-curse". Those joints are NOT going to come apart.

That's for the moisture-rated Pergo ("Outlast+" in Home-Depot-speak), not sure about the other varieties. I do know that the non-Pergo stuff from Lowes I used in the spare bedroom was a lot easier to put together.

[Ken Platt]

Steve sold me on nail down; it just seems like more of a sure thing.

Any thoughts on staples vs cleats inn the 18 gauge recommended for this strand bamboo stuff? Models?

[Ole Anderson]

Can't give you a direct answer as I used the HF gun which is 16 ga, but staples gave us less problems on bamboo than did the cleats. However my 18 ga Bostich brad gun couldn't consistently face nail in the very hard stranded bamboo, they just crumpled, had to use my 15 ga gun.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I think you'll be happy with that decision Ken. I use several guns, The prefered one is a standard Bostich 15 gauge stapler (that hammer shown is priceless for flooring, you want it even when you aren't using the stapler), but it won't get close to the end wall, so you need a few more, like the little Senco stapler, and a finish nailer for that last one to be face nailed. I use a 15 gauge Senco for that. I've never had trouble with staples, so I don't use cleats. Use the hammer gun to get ridiculously tight seams, it'll even straighten moderately warped stock if needed. Senco flooring stapler if you don't need the extra force.
https://www.cpooutlets.com/on/demandware.static/-/Sites-cpo-master-catalog/default/dw63ae1b1f/product_media/bst/bstnmiiifs/images/xlarge/bstnmiiifs.jpg
https://www.nailgundepot.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/s/l/sls20hf.jpg

[Chris Padilla]

Those fir planks are going to move a lot more than some decent plywood if you're going the nail down route. Someone else mentioned replacing it with plywood--I would strongly second that even thought it is a lot more work, time, effort, and money. Otherwise, the floating would be better over the planks.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Those fir planks are going to move a lot more than some decent plywood if you're going the nail down route. Someone else mentioned replacing it with plywood--I would strongly second that even thought it is a lot more work, time, effort, and money. Otherwise, the floating would be better over the planks.

I disagree Chris, it's a proven system over 100s of years to nail flooring over planks. Everything in a house moves around, it's OK.

I wouldn't replace the plank subfloor unless it's going to tile, then you need to decouple the wood from the tile, but it doesn't matter for wood flooring. I would put a bit of rosin paper or flooring paper between the subfloor and the new floor, but that's really it.

I've never seen any other pros do it differently either, unless there is some structural issue.

[Patrick Walsh]

Only thing I’ll add is with regard to sanding bamboo.

And my experience is not with flooring but with bamboo sheet stock.

I’m just thinking your floor is not level or has some humps and depressions as i thinkk you mentioned?

I imagine the product you have chosen is pre finished?

Regardless if you ever need to refinish it and plan to have the floors sanded the traditional way you are going to sand through the layers of the bamboo at unefer rates resulting in a real mess.

I would also second pulling up the old sub flooring and putting down some advanctech. Pay now or pay later.

[Robert Engel]

Curious what is the problem with fixing the subfloor?

Seems like that would be a must of course, depending on how uneven it is.

Maybe you can put down a laminate floor barrier or else you may be some creaks?

[Julie Moriarty]

For those with "click-lock" floors - when you walk on them, is there any loose feel, or "give" that you don't find with a nailed down floor?
Neither the Pergo or CoreTec click lock floors I've installed had any loose feel or give to them. But the Pergo floor bothered me because there was a slight gap that water could easily penetrate. With the CoreTec floor, the joints are so tight you can leave water on them and it will stay there until it evaporates. There is no difference in the feel of walking on nail down vs. click lock related to movement that I've ever noticed.

You mentioned a preference about which direction the planks should lay. With floating floors, you can lay the planks in any direction.

As for installation, I found CoreTec to be much more difficult than Pergo, mostly because the joints are so tight. My SO works for a flooring company and told me their installers do not recommend trying to reuse CoreTec flooring like one can with standard click lock flooring. I know from personal experience it's a lot harder to take up CoreTec planks that have been locked together than Pergo. Pergo almost falls apart. With CoreTec you can do it but it's a challenge.

[Tom Bender]

We have mostly 3/4" nail down but I recently installed a floating floor. Will never do that again. It was a lot of pounding and cursing and even a little unevenness in the subfloor caused creaking at the joints.

It's really not that hard to trim the bottom of a door.

[Ole Anderson]

It's really not that hard to trim the bottom of a door.

Especially if you have a track saw.

[David Helm]

I come down on the side of the "nail-downers" and the plywood folks. Forty years carpentering and laid lots of floors including floating. For my own place, when I laid bamboo in the upstairs, nail down was the only way I would go. One other consideration for the floaters; if there is to be a permanent solid object placed on top of it (i.e.island) the movement of the floor will cause separation of seams. That which is under the island cannot move. The whole point of floating floor is to accommodate movement. I learned this the hard way when a (then) boss ordered me to lay the floor prior to installation of the island (against my strenuous objections). When the seams later opened up he blamed me.

[Ken Platt]

I appreciate all the continued suggestions and comments. For those who've mentioned pulling up the current floor and putting in plywood, while I appreciate that this is perfect way to do it, it's just too much work for a room that we don't use all that much and are just looking to improve a bit. Should I even suggest it to my wife, she'd probably have a rug (which is the alternative plan to reflooring) purchased before I finished my sentence. Same, pretty much, for trying to alter the doors, which are large and heavy due to being almost entirely thick glass. Were this room a central, "showpiece" room, might be different.

Also, much of the rest of my 60 year old house is built with the strip flooring nailed down to solid wood subfloors, with the subfloors running at a 45 degree angle to the flooring, so putting a floor over solid wood doesn't seem inherently incorrect.

Great discussion, much appreciated.

Ken