Mitered frame and panel table top question

[Reinis Kanders]

Just read this nice article by Wilbur Pan
https://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/chinese-furniture-overview

He showed this nice tabletop with mitered corners. I thought that type of top was basically impossible to build without veneer. Were is the expansion taking
place?

https://www.popularwoodworking.com/wp-content/uploads/Figure-9a.jpg

Thanks!

[Jim Becker]

I personally wouldn't build a table like that for the obvious reason of wood movement, despite how nice it looks. It's not "impossible" to do, but there is great risk with joinery like that, even if the center panel is veneered, stable sheet stock. The wide aprons will still expand/contract, so how those corners are put together gets "interesting" to make sure they don't crack apart. IMHO, of course...

[Andrew Hughes]

Once you learn how to walk on rice paper you can things others can't do.
Young grasshopper

[Mel Fulks]

It's clearly a succesful attempt at rustic. Thanks to wood movement! You like the table in the photo....full speed ahead!

[Reinis Kanders]

That table is from 17th century and is solid wood according to the article, thus the question of how to build something in that style and have it endure 400 years.

[Derek Cohen]

That table is from 17th century and is solid wood according to the article, thus the question of how to build something in that style and have it endure 400 years.

The answer is simple. To avoid movement at the mitres, keep the table in a climate controlled environment, and away from heat or moisture. A dry climate would be best Make sure that the wood is acclimatised to the surroundings before construction, and then do not move it far from this. Easy :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Steve Jenkins]

Some woods just don’t change much if any with humidity changes. Around here I know several people who use mesquite and construct like that with no problem. Don’t think I would.

[johnny means]

It appears as though the corners are glued with the center being left to float like a typical frame and panel design. Notice the seam in the middle.

[Kevin Jenness]

1. stable wood

2. stable environment

3. solidly built frame joints w/ mitered mortise and tenon that survive panel expansion

4. Any panel expansion has been contained by a well built frame. Any shrinkage, which may have followed compression set, shows in the slightly open joints between boards and between the panel edge and frame.

If I were building this design with the woods available to me the center panel would be thick veneer, but the surviving examples of Ming tables prove that it can be done in solid wood.

[glenn bradley]

That is impressive. I would shy away from such a design for the obvious reasons. The maker undoubtedly had knowledge of his materials and conditions learned through generations of experience. I imagine if you took that piece to somewhere inclement or very humid, things could go very wrong even after 4 centuries.

[J.R. Rutter]

We could also be seeing a photo of that table taken at max humidity/expansion. If it was built with just a bit of room between planks, it could easily expand and contract within a certain range and be in good shape.

[Mel Fulks]

An old antique Chinese table , did not suspect that! I do know the chairs when I see them.

[Andrew Hughes]

I don’t think the table is 400 years old. I’m not a believer

[Kevin Jenness]

Andrew, I can't vouch for this particular photo, but I have several books on Ming era furniture depicting similar tables with flush panels in mitered frames. Believe it. https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/42734

[Patrick Walsh]

I have been wanting to make a table like that where the legs also miter into the miter of the frame and panel top or a three a way mitered joint.

I hadn’t given much thought to the the joints opening up to be perfectly honest.

I actually ran into this table by mistake just a couple weeks ago at a Bonsai nursery near to me. It’s not exactly what I’m thinking but pretty darn close.

I’m not sure exactly how old the table is but it is in a space that is not climate controlled in the north easy where the climate and namely humidity fluctuates drasticly.

I’m thinking so long as there is actual proper joinery of the Japanese style everything should be just fine?

I could be completely wrong?

391885

[Patrick Walsh]

I’m thinking something like this but pegged maybe for the underside and not through so you don’t see it.

Personally I wouldn’t mind seeing the peg.

https://i2.wp.com/www.daedtoolworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/DSCN3690-769938.jpg

Or even better. Clearly you would have to haunch both joints to accept a panel.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZZYjlsT-Ho

[Brian Holcombe]

If they’re small miters you really don’t have to worry much, especially in rift sawn material. If they’re wide, they will gap in most places with a range of humidity.

The cutoff point for me would be about 2.5”, beyond that I would prefer a joint that hides the movement.

Ive seen that type of wide miter table after it travels to the US and sits in a place with a heater running, they stand no chance.

The one Wilbur shows seems to be very thoughtfully constructed and has probably lived in a similar humidity range after it was made. Great article, and I’ve attended Wilbur’s speech on the subject, which I found quite informative.

[Mike Cutler]

In 1993 I made three doors like that for our upstairs bathroom. Mitered corner, frame in panel, construction. Ten of the twelve joints are just as tight as they were when I made them. The two that failed were both on the hinge side of an 80" door. A door which I wanted to divide in half, but was over ruled by the "client". ;)
I think I got lucky personally and that it's only because they are in a bathroom, that they made it. The swings in humidity are much less than other parts of the house.

It's impressive for sure that the table lasted that long period, let alone with that type of top, but I would have to believe that the wood was very carefully selected. The ends were sealed with whatever they had back then, and whomever made it was a heckuva craftsman.

I think that the math would suggest to construct a different type of top.