What do you guys think of this saw feature?

[Erik Florip]

First- here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNxAFys86Jo) is a video of the saw being used and showing the toothline.

The Idea:

Leave a section of the toe without teeth. Two benefits...the saw starts very smoothly with very little chance for chatter, if the layout line is marked with a knife and square, the chance of a square cut is very good.


This was not my idea. I saw it on the Glen-Drake joinery saw. It is being utilized differently on his saw but the idea is the same.


What do you guys think? I didn't know what to expect before building the saw- now, I really like it. I don't struggle to start a saw smoothly but I like knowing that my first cut is perfectly square to the face and full width.

[Warren Mickley]

You are solving a problem that an experienced worker does not have. The question is whether you want to spend time learning alternative techniques and then have to relearn when you have more experience.

We hold the saw against our thumb and start lightly in the forward direction. (Actually you should be able to saw in the air above the cut just being steadied by the thumb, but in practice we start cutting right away.) We don't lay the saw on the wood and start with a jerk as in your video.

[Simon MacGowen]

my first cut is perfectly square to the face and full width.[/QUOTE]

#1 Warren is right about the re learning thing.
#2 The design does allow a beginner or someone who struggles with starting cuts to begin the sawing easier. So such design should be looked at as a training wheel unless one plans to stick with that saw.
#3 Such design however does not guarantee square cuts or plum cuts as it facilitates the starting only. If your hand/arm movement/body are not in sync, your cuts could still be off.

Interesting concept though. No harm trying to see how it works. May be a good training wheel for those who have had bad sawing experience and given up.

Simon

[Jim Koepke]

We hold the saw against our thumb and start lightly in the forward direction.

For me the lower horn on the handle is for controlling how light the saw touches the work.

Maybe this can help a beginner, but not as much as practicing technique developed over centuries.

jtk

[Erik Florip]

Before I go to far into this, know that I'm playing devil's advocate for the saw. I build a fair number of saws and recently had this feature suggested to me. It looked iffy but after playing around with it, there is some value to the design. Not a game changer, but useful.



my first cut is perfectly square to the face and full width.

#3 Such design however does not guarantee square cuts or plum cuts as it facilitates the starting only. If your hand/arm movement/body are not in sync, your cuts could still be off.

Simon[/QUOTE]

This may be true if it's the first time you've touched a saw. However, I'd argue that after a few practice cuts you'd be sitting pretty good. I'm only referring to the face of the board and assuming that an accurate square was used to guide the scribe/knife.

I think it would mainly be beneficial on a dovetail saw since these are typically the saws used for exposed joinery.

I really appreciate hand cut dovetail joints and use them in box/furniture construction. I'm not a pro at either but I get pretty consistent results...but there are always those few cuts that are just slightly off. Not a big deal but there is often a little doctoring to leave a crisp look.

Even the pro's mess this up from time to time and need to repair their work. I have drawn a lot of lines in my life and wouldn't trust myself to draw a straight line longer than 1/4". Saw stroke isn't much different, human error is always there.

If there is a struck line, the saw stroke will follow it without any deviation. Not only does it follow it but it "sets" the cut. I was getting about 1/8" depth of cut on the first stroke, the cut was full width. With a properly set and sharpened saw, the rest of the cut is likely to continue on the path of the initial cut. Care still needs to be taken to ensure the saw is aligned with the downward direction.

Pro
-easy to start
-saw will follow a knife line
-added weight due to a longer back

Con
-doesn't focus on proper technique
-jerking motion (the video shows my first use of the saw, this speed isn't necessary)
-more material to make
-new guy is cutting better joints than the experienced woodworker (just kidding)


I regularly tell my 5 year old daughter "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". I only used this saw for a handful of cuts before shipping it out. I'd need a few finished projects with the saw to see how it worked out.

and since you guys like hand tools...check out these saws I just wrapped up. Handles are east indian satinwood.

391640

[Frederick Skelly]

Are you with "Florip Toolworks", Erik? I've heard good things about them.

[Simon MacGowen]

[QUOTE=Erik Florip;2840082]Before I go to far into this, know that I'm playing devil's advocate for the saw.

- I always think anyone who plays the devil's advocate or has a seemingly unworkable idea should be supported -- the person, but not necessarily his or her idea. Too many good ideas are killed because they are not consistent with the old way of thinking or proven practices. Cell phones would have never been born if we had let the landline businesses dictate our world!

Even the pro's mess this up from time to time and need to repair their work. I have drawn a lot of lines in my life and wouldn't trust myself to draw a straight line longer than 1/4". Saw stroke isn't much different, human error is always there.

-True about messing up, even Rob Cosman has written a few pages about fixing dovetail mistakes (yes, some non-fatal mistakes are fixable, But please, forget about saw dust and glue!).

BUT, starting a square cut (which is not the same as a plumb cut) is simple. To ensure your cuts are square, make a very light cut on the endgrain and CHECK (visually or with a square if the pencil line is sawn) if the light kerf is square. Realign your saw if not. This will work 99.9% of the time. Try it with your non dominant hand!

Plumb cuts or angled cuts? It is a different story unless you use a guide block. That is where you can tell between a seasoned sawer and someone less saw-proficient. But with determination and guided practice, anyone can become a good sawer.

Simon

[Stewie Simpson]

http://www.blackburntools.com/articles/saw-tooth-geometry/images/rake-guidelines.gif

For my liking the ideal rake angle falls within the range of 5-10 degrees. The dominant consideration being ppi.

[Derek Cohen]

Eric

I have a saw like this - the Glen Drake joinery saw. I reviewed it here (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/GlenDrakeJoinerySaw.html). That was 6 years ago, and my opinion has not changed. It is a saw for beginners, and when they outgrow it, they will hate it. I consider Kevin Drake to be innovative and inventive. I love his mind. He is also a craftsman. But I cannot recommend this type of saw. I found is so frustrating! There is no transition from no/small teeth to large/coarse teeth, and the result is a rough, jerking action. Further, one cannot place the saw on the workpiece in the middle of the plate (sometimes we want to) because the teeth are too large in that area.

Learning to take the weight off the saw is what it should be about. That is the simple essence of good sawing ... not taking the teeth out of the saw. That will not teach anything.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Simon MacGowen]

Interesting chart.

Simon

[Ted Phillips]

Shannon Rogers posted his reaction to that saw tooth pattern. His basic point is that if you are using proper sawing mechanics then you don't want or need this saw. The toothless design allows you to "build up momentum" before the teeth engage. This will result in inaccurate cuts as the first teeth hit the wood and start jumping and bouncing in the cut- and this affects accuracy more and more as the saw loses it sharpness...

The proper way to saw is to use the handle to take weight off the toe of the saw as you start the cut.

[Erik Florip]

Are you with "Florip Toolworks", Erik? I've heard good things about them.

That’s me. Glad to hear I haven’t tarnished my name yet :)

Thanks for the feedback.

Derek,

The person that came to me with the request for this saw owns the glen drake version. They had the same complaints and asked if I’d change the design. It’s a 12” dovetail plate with 10” of 15ppi teeth. It doesn’t prevent the saw from traditional use.

[glenn bradley]

Interesting idea. I was beat up a bit by the purists when I added a little more rake at the front of my DT saw to make starting easier. That saw is still filed that way but, I have others. I now start the forward motion against my thumb and just above the material. If there was only one way to do things, the world would be a lot less interesting.

[Phil Mueller]

Not to hijack this thread, but Stewie, I’ve seen that chart. The one thing I’m not too sure about is the miter saw rake at 25 degrees. Based on this chart I filed a miter saw at that angle...can’t remember the fleam at the moment. I must say the cut is finish quality, but it’s slow as molasses.

[Simon MacGowen]

Interesting idea. I was beat up a bit by the purists when I added a little more rake at the front of my DT saw to make starting easier. .

Same idea as the now discontinued L-N progressive teeth saw?

Purists? Or just a bunch of obstinate woodworkers?

Simon

[Derek Cohen]

Andrew Lunn made saws under the banner of Eccentric Toolworks. Magnificent saws. He used a variation that worked very well. Rather than using different size teeth, he added a lower rake on the initial teeth. This simply made the teeth cut a little more gently, and the transition was imperceptible. I have 14" crosscut carcase saw, and it works.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Myers]

I have the GB saw and my experience with it parallels largely what is mentioned above.

I bought it as my first joinery saw, along with the kerf starter tool. I have used it for multiple small tasks including dovetails, tenons, crosscuts. I have used the kerf starter less and less. The toothless entry serves its purpose well. Ther other aspect of the saw not mentioned is the toothless portion at the heel. That definitely helps train you to take full length strokes rather than chattering away using only the middle 1/3 of the available teeth.

My biggest problem with it is feeling the angle of the plate to the workpiece. My traditional backsaws make it much easier for me to sense.

So I'll be getting a traditional dovetail saw to use, and I will get a traditionally filed tooth pattern. If my youngest shows an interest I have no qualms teaching him with the GB saw, and I'm sure I'll use it for various tasks.

[Jason Lester]

Same idea as the now discontinued L-N progressive teeth saw?

Purists? Or just a bunch of obstinate woodworkers?



I just bought the Cosman dovetail saw. It's not progressive, but has 22 tpi for the first couple of inches and then 15 tpi for the remainder. It just came in today, but in some quick test cuts, it does seem to help with starting the kerf. It saws really fast too. The handle is also composite instead of wood, but it feels good in the hand and is surprisingly heavy.

[Noah Magnuson]

... Too many good ideas are killed because they are not consistent with the old way of thinking or proven practices. Cell phones would have never been born if we had let the landline businesses dictate our world! ...

Simon
You're not going to sell me with that example...;)

[steven c newman]

Not sure IF that will work for me....as I start a saw cut back near the handle area....usually between the etch and the handle....But, that is just me.

[glenn bradley]

Same idea as the now discontinued L-N progressive teeth saw?

Probably not as sophisticated. I just increase the rake on the first inch or so.