Justifying A Major Tool Purchase

[Julie Moriarty]

Doing my best to keep the "I WANT IT!" out of this debate, here's the facts:

I've been able to deal with not having a power jointer and using a benchtop planer because the supplier back in Chicago did mill work and the wood in stock was planed. Since moving to Florida, that's changed.

Supplier #1 doesn't have any power tools, not even a Skil saw. And their prices are outrageous. Supplier #2 doesn't have a jointer but will plane wood for 40 cents a square foot. All the wood they have in stock is right off the mill's bandsaw, not even skip planed. But what they sell is always thicker than sized. Example - 4/4 I bought recently was 1-1/16" to 1-1/8" thick. To take that to 3/4" I start by resawing ~3/16" off. That leaves me with thin stock I would not have had if I had them plane it and I'm already putting some of that to use.

I spend 25 or more hours per week in the workshop. And since moving here I've been working the planer pretty hard. I replaced my old one with a Dewalt 735, thinking it would handle the workload better. I was wrong. It can't even handle what the old one could. Plus it won't lock the depth and it keeps tripping the overload. Right now Dewalt service has it. I have no idea what they will come back with. In the meantime I've been wondering if I need to rethink things.

My options:

1) Use what I have and incorporate the drum sander to do the planing the benchtop can't.

2) Start buying the cabinets or furniture I need and cut back on woodworking and find something else to keep me busy.

3) Find $5K and buy a planer/jointer that can handle the workload.

And I'm not sure if I came here to be convinced I need a planer/jointer or I want to be talked out of it.

Comments welcomed.

[Martin Wasner]

Buy used. Buy separates if you can afford the space.

My SAC 12" jointer I paid $2k for, it's in pretty nice shape and great to use. Setting the knives is a horrific experience.

I think I sold my old 15" four post grizmatic planer with curved knives for $1500.

If you found similar prices, you'd be in for $3500 and be light years ahead of where you're at a and under $5,000

[Dan Friedrichs]

I hope the service center finds something wrong with your DW735, because the experiences you describe with it sound very different than what I experienced when I had one...

OTOH, a new 12" A3-31 with spiral cutterhead is only $4k.

[Brian Nguyen]

I've tried to plane boards using my 19/38 drum sander. It's maddeningly slow, and I abandoned that idea instantly.
I'd buy the planer/jointer machine if I'm in your shoes :)

[Jacob Mac]

Could you get a jointer plane and get it flat enough to use your planer once you get it back?

That might keep you in business while you save your pennies and/or find a better solution

[Will Boulware]

I'll add another vote for used machinery.

How much space do you have? How wide are the boards you're working?

I've got less than $2k in my old 24" jointer and the knife setting process isn't anywhere near as bad as what Martin's talking about. (Never worked on a Euro machine, so I'm clueless about what they require.) And I just picked up an 18" Delta wedgebed planer for well under a grand. If you're space-challenged, there are plenty of old 8-12" jointers around and a plethora of 12-13" planers in the "wow, that's not as much as I thought" range. You don't have to drop $5k to fix this problem, but you might have to pick up a wrench and dig around for some how-to stuff.

The biggest thing I'm seeing here is..... If you're spending 25 hours a week in your shop, there is no way you're going to give this up and be happy with it! Fix the machinery problem, or grab some hand tools and learn to work stuff that way, but don't give it up!

[Rod Sheridan]

Julie, buy a nice jointer/planer and be done with it.

You've worked all your life, you deserve something that takes the drudge out of jointing and planning.

I'm on my second Hammer A3-31, buy the one with the Silent Power cutter and the digital height gauge.

You'll save so much time it will amaze you, and having a 12 inch wide jointer is fantastic...............Regards, Rod.

[Ben Rivel]

Hammer A3-31 Jointer/Planer combo is on sale right now for around $4K with the helical cutter head. I know because I just ordered one finally. Mine should be here next month some time. I say being how often you say you will be using yours and if you dont have the space for separates, take a look at the Hammer! It's a very well liked machine.

[Mike Cutler]

Julie

I do this to myself all the time. Try to justify tool purchases. It drives my wife nuts.
Right now I'm doing it to myself over a couple hundred dollars worth in shaper cutters. I keep trying to convince myself that I can do it with what I have, but I know that doing with new. purpose specific cutters, would be much easier, faster, and ultimately result in a better outcome.
I would not be able to function without a jointer and planer. I want way too much control over the material I put into a project. Grain and appearance are just as important to me as good joinery. I don't build a lot these days, but what I do build, I want to look as professionally done as I am capable of accomplishing.
I have to agree with the rest, to look at the used market, even it meant a trip "back up north" to get it. I've seen more than a few jointer/planer combo's on Craigslist.

[Julie Moriarty]

The Hammer A3-31 is the JP I'd like. With the helical head, it's $4090. Add the mobile kit, dial indicator & handwheel and a 2nd set of knives and you're at $4,900, including tax. Shipping is another $500. Even with the straight knives it's close to $5K delivered. The mobile kit is a must. The dial indicator I could wait but I know I'd eventually get it so why not now. Anyway, it's a big chunk of money and my SO has already balked at the price.

I was just at the workbench jointing an edge on four 4/4 boards. All total it was less than 20' in overall length. Took me an hour. Last two days I've put in 15 hours and don't have a lot to show for it. It's frustrating. And I have 2 bathrooms and the laundry room I haven't even started yet. Cabinets needed in all. Then there's three tables in the works, besides what I'm working on now, and who knows what else.

I've looked at cheaper JPs but reviews all pretty much chased me away. It's strictly a money thing. Living on an electrician's pension doesn't leave a lot at the end of the month so there would have to be sacrifices made. This has to be a two thumbs up decision and it's not right now. I guess more than anything I'm questioning if I'm being selfish pushing this purchase.

[David Utterback]

Having seen posts of your work, it seems that you may need a jointer wider than 8". Sorry about the 735 problems. Mine is probably more than 10 years old and has been trouble free after I replaced a faulty breaker. It has never tripped the overload on the machine.

[David Kumm]

Watch for a 12" jointer first. For 2000-2500 you can find a good 12" and make do with the lunchbox for the time being. A 13-15" planer can be had for less than 1K and even after the head conversion, you will be less than 2K into it and spread the purchases out to whenever the deal shows up. They will take up a little more room but I'd want extended tables on a short JP and that costs too. Dave

[Julie Moriarty]

I'll add another vote for used machinery.

How much space do you have? How wide are the boards you're working?

I've got less than $2k in my old 24" jointer and the knife setting process isn't anywhere near as bad as what Martin's talking about. (Never worked on a Euro machine, so I'm clueless about what they require.) And I just picked up an 18" Delta wedgebed planer for well under a grand. If you're space-challenged, there are plenty of old 8-12" jointers around and a plethora of 12-13" planers in the "wow, that's not as much as I thought" range. You don't have to drop $5k to fix this problem, but you might have to pick up a wrench and dig around for some how-to stuff.

The biggest thing I'm seeing here is..... If you're spending 25 hours a week in your shop, there is no way you're going to give this up and be happy with it! Fix the machinery problem, or grab some hand tools and learn to work stuff that way, but don't give it up!

Space is an issue. So nothing more than a 12" JP would fit.

I actually don't know what I'd do with myself if I gave up woodworking. Some weeks I've put in over 50 hours. It keeps me sane. I've got some very nice hand planes but too often they teach me I'm no spring chicken anymore. Probably good for keeping the Grim Reaper at bay though.

[Jim Becker]

Well...I'm a J/P fan for sure, but that's certainly a personal choice. Since you like to work with really terrific material, you may be well served by having a wide face jointing capability at the same time as serving your thicknessing needs. Your unique "shop" also comes into play here, of course, since it's currently "your house". But that's just one persons opinion.

[andy bessette]

Buy used. Buy separates...

This.

Don't shop at the closest big box store for a DeWalt planer. Get a real one. Very pleased with my early Delta 13".

My near mint 8" Powermatic jointer cost me $700 IIRC.

[Zachary Hoyt]

If you're just jointing the edge of boards you can do a lot with a 6" jointer. I got mine for $50 on Craigslist. I also have a $400 15" mid-80s Taiwan-made 4 post planer that I found on Craigslist. They're not the best tools, but for a volume of wood like when I had 100 1x6x8 pine to plane the 15" planer is a lot better than my little DeWalt 733, and the little jointer is good for some things. You can do a lot with skip planing, though it has a lot of limitations too.
Zach

[Rod Sheridan]

Julie, skip the second set of cutters until you need them, it will be years from now.

Go for it, times too precious to waste on drudge.

If you're still licensed go do some electrical work for a week and put the money toward the J/P, that week of work will be made up in a month when you save all that jointing and planning time........Rod.

[Greg Parrish]

Wanna buy my DW735 with Shelix head? I want a hammer combo unit myself.

I could probably bring it to you in the next week or so if your in Orlando or Tampa area. LOL :D

[Julie Moriarty]

If you're still licensed go do some electrical work for a week and put the money toward the J/P, that week of work will be made up in a month when you save all that jointing and planning time........Rod.
All my neighbors know I'm an electrician. They have seen the panel change I did, conduit I've installed, many have come to me for help on little things and I've told them all if they have any electrical work to call me and maybe I can do it for less. One neighbor is doing a major renovation, two have built new houses but not one has talked to me about possibly doing the work. :confused: A couple of guys in my local moved down here. One I talked to said we can't get a license in Florida because they first require you work for four years for a contractor. In Illinois I'm a master electrician. Here I'm bupkis.


Wanna buy my DW735 with Shelix head? I want a hammer combo unit myself.

I could probably bring it to you in the next week or so if your in Orlando or Tampa area. LOL :D
You could send yours back to Dewalt, too, and they could put it next to mine. :rolleyes: All I've heard from them so far is two letters that came in the mail yesterday. Both were UPS stickers and instructions for sending the planer back. I sent it a week ago and they got it two days later.

[Albert Lee]

Doing my best to keep the "I WANT IT!" out of this debate, here's the facts:

I've been able to deal with not having a power jointer and using a benchtop planer because the supplier back in Chicago did mill work and the wood in stock was planed. Since moving to Florida, that's changed.

Supplier #1 doesn't have any power tools, not even a Skil saw. And their prices are outrageous. Supplier #2 doesn't have a jointer but will plane wood for 40 cents a square foot. All the wood they have in stock is right off the mill's bandsaw, not even skip planed. But what they sell is always thicker than sized. Example - 4/4 I bought recently was 1-1/16" to 1-1/8" thick. To take that to 3/4" I start by resawing ~3/16" off. That leaves me with thin stock I would not have had if I had them plane it and I'm already putting some of that to use.

I spend 25 or more hours per week in the workshop. And since moving here I've been working the planer pretty hard. I replaced my old one with a Dewalt 735, thinking it would handle the workload better. I was wrong. It can't even handle what the old one could. Plus it won't lock the depth and it keeps tripping the overload. Right now Dewalt service has it. I have no idea what they will come back with. In the meantime I've been wondering if I need to rethink things.

My options:

1) Use what I have and incorporate the drum sander to do the planing the benchtop can't.

2) Start buying the cabinets or furniture I need and cut back on woodworking and find something else to keep me busy.

3) Find $5K and buy a planer/jointer that can handle the workload.

And I'm not sure if I came here to be convinced I need a planer/jointer or I want to be talked out of it.

Comments welcomed.

Hi Julie

You have come to a woodworking community for help... I think our ideas will be biased towards quality machinery that you can keep, use and possibly resale if you dont like it.

here are some facts from your post:
1. you spend 25 hours in you workshop - this is a lot if woodworking is not your primary income.
2. You used to have the stock milled to your size, now this has changed and unless you find a supplier who can do the mill work. otherwise you are stuck.

therefore I think you deserve a quality JP combo. a $5k budget can get you a very nice machine that you will be happy with.

Drum sander - I end up with a proper 43 inch SCM wide belt sander. with drum sander you will be changing the sand belt more often than changing the diaper on a baby if you use it frequently.

JP combo - a quality JP combo will increase your efficiency - your 25 hours may drop down to 20 or less depends on what you do, I use my JP combo more often than anything else. that was after 3-4 years of owning a 16" wide Robland with Tersa blade so I recently upgraded to Felder AD951. I dont really know if it is because wide JP are so useful thats why I use it a lot or what I make require a lot of work on JP combo thats why I work a lot with my JP combo. either way, a wide JP combo is super versatile.

[Peter Kelly]

https://miami.craigslist.org/mdc/tls/d/hammer-table-saw-c3-31/6630465201.html

Been on CL for a few months. Needs a good home!

[Glen Gunderson]

One thing that has helped me justify larger tool purchases is reminding myself that the value doesn't disappear as soon as you buy the tool. If you buy a $4K jointer/planer, it's not like that $4K is gone forever like if you spent it on a vacation or something like that. If you change your mind in a few years or want to upgrade later, you've still got thousands of dollars of value in it that you can recoup. With used tools this is even more of a factor. If you get a good deal on used machinery you can often end up using it for years and then selling it for about what you paid.

Also, the older I get the more it gets knocked into my head that life is too short to spend time doing things you don't really enjoy. Milling wood and sanding can get kind of old, so I was happy to invest in machinery that makes that faster, more accurate, and less frustrating, even if it was hard to justify strictly in terms of time and money savings.

[Matt Day]

The DW735 is a plastic toy in my opinion. At minimum get a 4 post planer. Watch for 12” jointers on sale used. Got my Northfield LD for about $800. Spending $5 on a combo seems crazy with the prices of used out there (at least in the mid west). But, I enjoy buying used machinery and going to auctions, some people don’t like it or don’t have the time or don’t want to move/fix up and old machine.

[Larry Frank]

My DW735 is a great toy and I use it a lot for thinner wood and making final cuts on wood. I also have a 3 hp Jet planner and use it for more production type work. There is a use for both. Because many of the larger planers use a serrated infeed roll, you have to take off a larger cut to clear the marks.

I do not think criticizing everyone who uses a DW735 and saying their tool is a toy is very useful. Could I rebuild a piece of old iron...yes. But for me it is not the best use of my time.

[Phil Mueller]

Well, it sounds to me as though your woodworking hobby has turned into work. You’re pressuring yourself to get bathrooms, entertainment centers, tables, and whatever else done. The craft has become a job. And because it’s become work, you’re frustrated that the tools you have are just not working fast enough.

I figure you can either bite the bullet, buy the tools you want, get the projects done, and probably enjoy the process more, or take a deep breath, take the pressure off, and take some pleasure in moving at a slower pace.

Does seem to me though, from the perspective of getting that second thumbs up, that if you priced out all the cabinets and furniture you want for your home, you’d be well over $5k.

[Matt Day]

I didn’t mean to offend anyone with my DW735 comment, and I apologize if i did. I know they are popular and a great choice for a lot of folks. Just saying that compared to a bigger cast iron planer it’s hard to compare.

[Mark Rainey]

Well, it sounds to me as though your woodworking hobby has turned into work. You’re pressuring yourself to get bathrooms, entertainment centers, tables, and whatever else done. The craft has become a job. And because it’s become work, you’re frustrated that the tools you have are just not working fast enough.

I figure you can either bite the bullet, buy the tools you want, get the projects done, and probably enjoy the process more, or take a deep breath, take the pressure off, and take some pleasure in moving at a slower pace.

Does seem to me though, from the perspective of getting that second thumbs up, that if you priced out all the cabinets and furniture you want for your home, you’d be well over $5k.. Good points Phil. You raise some deeper issues we all face. The high end bicycle we just have to have. The best vacation... Julie, woodworking is a great hobby. Our relationships are more important. We need balance. And we all know woodworking tools can be a bottomless pit. As Phil said, take a deep breath, enjoy the shavings coming off that hand plane while listening to some good music and do not rush.

[John TenEyck]

I see used equipment for great prices all the time from folks in FL who get too old to use them anymore. Seems to me you should be able to find a good jointer and planer or J/P combo down there for a lot less than a new one if money is what's holding you back. Personally, I almost always buy used because you get more value for your $'s, but I understand the allure of shiny new paint, too. If space is a huge issue look for a 10" Inca J/P. I had one for more than 25 years and made a house full of projects with it. It looks like a toy but it did everything I ever needed. They typically sell for less than $750. I like my MiniMax more, but it takes up substantially more space, too. Good luck no matter what you decide.

John

[Julie Moriarty]

Well, it sounds to me as though your woodworking hobby has turned into work. You’re pressuring yourself to get bathrooms, entertainment centers, tables, and whatever else done. The craft has become a job. And because it’s become work, you’re frustrated that the tools you have are just not working fast enough.

I figure you can either bite the bullet, buy the tools you want, get the projects done, and probably enjoy the process more, or take a deep breath, take the pressure off, and take some pleasure in moving at a slower pace.

Does seem to me though, from the perspective of getting that second thumbs up, that if you priced out all the cabinets and furniture you want for your home, you’d be well over $5k.
It is very much like a job, Phil. The only difference is I get to take breaks when I want to. My frustration comes when, at the end of the day, it looks like I got nothing done. (My boss (me) is a taskmaster! ;)) All I have for a day's work today is a stack of milled pieces and a barrel full of shavings. I spent most of the day hand planing.

You're right about the cost of cabinets. I priced out the cabinets we need for the bathrooms and laundry and gasped! Maybe that JP price isn't so bad. :rolleyes:

[Matt Mattingley]

Julie, buy a nice jointer/planer and be done with it.

You've worked all your life, you deserve something that takes the drudge out of jointing and planning.

I'm on my second Hammer A3-31, buy the one with the Silent Power cutter and the digital height gauge.

You'll save so much time it will amaze you, and having a 12 inch wide jointer is fantastic...............Regards, Rod.
Rod, you joined the silent cutterhead group? Welcome, it is a nice head. Sometimes I wish I had the coin and space for the three knife silent cutterhead in the 16 inch.

We always want bigger and better. But I am very happy with my A3-31 silent cutter! My only complaint is I wish they could handle more CFM on dust collection.

[Roger Marty]

My DeWalt 734 benchtop planer had overload problems. DeWalt replaced the switch and problem solver.

I use a little 6" jointer I found on Craigslist for $75. Do I wish i had a big 8"? Yup. But the little 6" does the job for anything 5-6 feet or less.

[Jerome Stanek]

All my neighbors know I'm an electrician. They have seen the panel change I did, conduit I've installed, many have come to me for help on little things and I've told them all if they have any electrical work to call me and maybe I can do it for less. One neighbor is doing a major renovation, two have built new houses but not one has talked to me about possibly doing the work. :confused: A couple of guys in my local moved down here. One I talked to said we can't get a license in Florida because they first require you work for four years for a contractor. In Illinois I'm a master electrician. Here I'm bupkis.

Now you know how I felt when I worked in Chicago. I had to hire carpenters that had no experience in installing CVS fixtures and equipment and the electricians told me that I couldn't show them the correct premade cable to hook up the pharmacy cabinets. I wasn't installing them just pointing out which cable goes where as they had no clue. The did try to steal the light bulbs that I had bought because their's were burnt out and they would not get more. One crew even blew up a bunch of equipment because they hooked up 220 to 120 stuff.

[Prashun Patel]

I like my 12” jointer planer. A combo machine gives the typical user more jointing capability and less planing capability than they would buy in separates.

It works for me.

I like having a spiral head for both ops. I wouldn’t have splurged for this if I had separates.

Look for precise depth setting, because you may need to switch back and forth between ops.

One thing I underestimated with the combo is the pain of dust hose management. The jointer vents below the table, and the planer vents above, so that has to be planned for. The two ops also vent on opposite sides.

[Julie Moriarty]

I figure you can... or take a deep breath, take the pressure off, and take some pleasure in moving at a slower pace.
Phil, this has played in my head since I first read it. Yesterday was pretty frustrating in part because the gnarly wood kept changing grain direction causing edge jointing to be more of a science project. I kept dreaming of a spiral head jointer creating flat, smooth surfaces in minutes rather than hours. But Zen woodworking certainly has its benefits.

I don't know if a JP is in the cards but I do know I can't stop creating, designing and building. Kinda like this guy: https://vimeo.com/78788086

[Jim Becker]

Some of this comes down to how much and in what way you want to invest not just for now, but for your continued woodworking activities. I'm not sorry in any way that I took the long term approach some time ago to invest in the tools I did, knowing that it would certainly be harder to do so when I reached retirement or something. (which I did last fall) You can do a tactical buy or you can do a strategic investment. Or you can do neither... It's nice to have choices! And I will say, given your talent, I hope you'll be doing this for a good long time.

[Mike King]

IMHO, the jointer/planer is the foundation tool. Don't skimp on this one! A high quality combo will make you much more productive and allow you to spend your time on more productive tasks.

Mike

[Rick Alexander]

I have a Parks 12 inch planer that my dad purchased new in 1973 or thereabout. Has a little surface rust (very little) on the beds but otherwise would clean up like new and has very few hours on the Baldor motor. I have a 20 inch grizzly with a byrd head in it so I really don't need the Parks but to this point haven't had the heart to sell it since my dad passed 18 months ago. A byrd head for this planer is $828 and the heft and power the planer offers cries out for one - way more than a lunchbox style. Buy the Parks from me for $500 add the byrd and you're in business for rough cut lumber all day every day for years to come. Plus if you decide to sell it I bet you could get 1K anytime you wanted with that head on it. Those old Parks are tanks.

[Bill Dufour]

I would recommend a 18" rockwell wedgebed planer and a 8"jointer. should get those for under $2,000. I realized most of my drawerfronts are between 6-8" tall so a 8" jointer lets me do then in one piece.
With a planer you will have to have powerful dust collection or the chips will be recycled and crush the finished wood causing bad surfaces.
Bill D.

[John Sincerbeaux]

Julie,
I think you already know what is best for YOU!
Your #2 option leads me to believe maybe you’re not “all in” with woodworking?
My advice... If you’re totally passionate about woodworking, then buy the best, most expensive equipment/tooling you can afford. No one ever regrets buying nice equipment, new or used.

[Brian Holcombe]

Prior to buying a J/P I spent the majority of my time prepping material. After buying it I spend the majority of my time cutting joinery.

I don't regret doing it all by hand prior, but I'd be hard pressed to go back. The best part is that the machine makes a more consistent and reliable product, doing similar work by hand is very time consuming (to nail the accuracy on four faces on every stick). For all intents and purposes I can make the material 'perfect' which is a wonderful place to start, when I make a run of something the last part fits the same as the first.

In the rare cases I did outsource material prep, I found it extremely difficult. I'd constantly get material back that had been run through a planer with dull knives, or against the grain or sniping, or what have you and the end result was always that I was chasing out the error of the operator or of the worn out machinery being used. When you bring it in house you can keep after the end product a lot more carefully. I change knives very rapidly given the volume of lumber that I plane, it's my prerogative to do so but something that I couldn't ask of someone else running their own machine.

[Julie Moriarty]

In the rare cases I did outsource material prep, I found it extremely difficult.
Even when all I was doing before was having the supplier joint one edge, I sometimes found chip out. And in cases where long boards had a bow, when they jointed the board, it could lose an inch of more of the width. Sometimes that meant I'd have to buy more lumber. When I control how the wood will be milled, there's little waste.

I just got a quote from the Felder rep nearest me (curiosity killed the cat). The Hammer A3-31 with Silent Power, mobile kit, dial indicator & handwheel and two 200mm extensions delivered is a bit over $5.8K. Online, the Silent Power is 4-8 weeks out. The rep has it in stock. My head is spinning! And the Titanic is headed for an iceberg.

[Greg Parrish]

More than I thought based on online price but probably due to all the extras. Is that delivered?

[Brian Nguyen]

Maybe there's sales tax if she's buying from a local dealer. Online prices may not have tax although you really should be remitting them at tax time anyway.

Julie, did you consider the fact that you can likely sell your 735 on CL when you get it back? It may get you $300 easily, which takes off some of the sting of buying this beautiful piece of machinery.

I'm doing my part to steer the ship toward the iceberg heheheh.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Julie, do you really need the extensions?

I don't normally use mine. The only one I always have on the machine is the planer outfeed, the feed is 6m/minute so short pieces fell on the floor:D

regards, Rod.

[andy bessette]

...The Hammer A3-31 with Silent Power, mobile kit, dial indicator & handwheel and two 200mm extensions delivered is a bit over $5.8K...

It can be a lot of fun to blow a bunch of $ unnecessarily. But I get more of a kick out of finding bargains on great used machines.

[Dan Friedrichs]

I just got a quote from the Felder rep nearest me (curiosity killed the cat). The Hammer A3-31 with Silent Power, mobile kit, dial indicator & handwheel and two 200mm extensions delivered is a bit over $5.8K. Online, the Silent Power is 4-8 weeks out. The rep has it in stock. My head is spinning! And the Titanic is headed for an iceberg.

I agree with Rod - the extension tables are so rarely useful as to be unnecessary. And I suspect you're paying full retail price for them whether you buy them now or later. Likewise, hold off on spare cutter inserts - the included 4-sided ones may last you a lifetime. I also wonder if the mobility kit is worth the cost - many have put nice casters on and had great results. $4100 plus $152 for dial+handwheel is $4250 (plus shipping and tax).

[Julie Moriarty]

Looking at videos, the mobile kit looks workable in my garage. The planer, bandsaw and tablesaw are stored against one wall. The first two always have to be moved out to use them. A few feet from where the planer and bandsaw sit is a floor drain and the floor is pitched to the drain. I have to work the wheels of the tools around so they don't wobble.

The garage used to be an open carport, thus the floor drain. The only time that drain might be used is if we have a storm surge so I could pour floor leveler over it but I'm no fan of concrete work. None of my floor tools are even close to 700 lbs so I have no idea what it's like moving around that kind of weight, let alone what that weight on an uneven floor might do to the frame.

As for the extensions, what I have set up with the benchtop is shop-made infeed and outfeed extensions with an additional fold-down extension on the outfeed. That setup eliminated snipe on the Delta planer and has worked pretty well with the Dewalt. It's just nice not to have to run to the other side to catch short pieces. But I could probably build something with unistrut. I've got most of the hardware already.

And here I am, doing exactly what I said I'd try not to do. But if I wanted to be talked out of this purchase, I should have gone to a macramé forum. :rolleyes:

The iceberg looms ahead...

[Jim Becker]

"Arrrrh...arrrh....arrrh..." :) :D

[David Kumm]

I feel like a wimp. I've got extensions on my 8' jointer and most every other machine. I hate tipping boards and seem to always work with 8-12' long boards of the 5/4-8/4 thickness. I don't run very well anymore either. Dave

[Albert Lee]

Even when all I was doing before was having the supplier joint one edge, I sometimes found chip out. And in cases where long boards had a bow, when they jointed the board, it could lose an inch of more of the width. Sometimes that meant I'd have to buy more lumber. When I control how the wood will be milled, there's little waste.

I just got a quote from the Felder rep nearest me (curiosity killed the cat). The Hammer A3-31 with Silent Power, mobile kit, dial indicator & handwheel and two 200mm extensions delivered is a bit over $5.8K. Online, the Silent Power is 4-8 weeks out. The rep has it in stock. My head is spinning! And the Titanic is headed for an iceberg.

Do you need the extension? you can cut out a lot of the accessories and save you some $$

I work with 8' long boards and I dont have extension... maybe I should. the planer extension for the AD951 is $200. I cant justify $200 for a piece of metal thats mass produced.

[Bradley Gray]

I have a Parks 12 inch planer that my dad purchased new in 1973 or thereabout. Has a little surface rust (very little) on the beds but otherwise would clean up like new and has very few hours on the Baldor motor. I have a 20 inch grizzly with a byrd head in it so I really don't need the Parks but to this point haven't had the heart to sell it since my dad passed 18 months ago. A byrd head for this planer is $828 and the heft and power the planer offers cries out for one - way more than a lunchbox style. Buy the Parks from me for $500 add the byrd and you're in business for rough cut lumber all day every day for years to come. Plus if you decide to sell it I bet you could get 1K anytime you wanted with that head on it. Those old Parks are tanks.









Julie,

I have one of these planers and you should jump on this offer. This is a real planer that with maintenance will last several lifetimes.

I use mine with the original 3 knife head (I do back-bevel the knives) and it has been a workhorse for 35 years.

You can check out the manual on OWWM (Parks 95)

[Bruce Wrenn]

Julie, are you building case work, or furniture? Case work is just plywood, or melamine boxes,with a pretty face. The boxes can be butt screwed together, as only the face and the ends are seen. Doors can be bought, ready to finish, or prefinished. Try to locate a copy of Danny Proulx's book "Making your own kitchen cabinets." This book changed how I built cabinets. As for machines, I would watch CL for a used four post 13" or 15" planer, and a 6" jointer. With the guard removed and replaced by a shop made Euro guard, you can face joint board as wide as 9" on a 6" jointer. My hardwood supplier seldom has any board that are wider than 9." The 15" planer will handle anything you throw at it. As you have found out licensing boards are usually in business to protect those who already hold licensees. Seldom does the licensee holder lift a finger to actually do the work. They only hold the licensee, thus restricting competition. Doing a remodel while living in the house is @#LL! Only advantage is the short commute to work, which means you can work longer because you are already home. I don't know how far you are from Atlanta.. IWF is there this coming week. It is amazing to see how automation has become the standard in the woodworking industry. Worth the trip, and the $20 registration fee. Bruce

[Alan Lightstone]

Julie:

Boy, I wish you had posted this 6 months ago when I sold my Laguna J/P combo with helical knifes. I'm about 90 min north of you. Would have been thrilled for you to get it.

That being said, buy the good stuff. You won't regret it.

[Rick Potter]

I am already jealous.

[Dan Hahr]

I'd hold back on buying any new planer until you get your DW735 back or tried another one to compare. I've used big ole 20" planers and have a Delta 15" planer as well as a 735. With sharp knives, there is NOTHING that doesn't come out well enough that a trip to the drum sander won't fix. I've run everything from cedar and fat lighter pine to jatoba, bubinga, bolivian rosewood, hard maple, and teak through it and have never had to run less than 1/64th at a time and that would have been on a 12" wide board. I have bogged it down with a deep cut, and a 1/16th at 8+" of hard wood will make it struggle a bit, but normally, a 1/32" cut will work on any wood, any width. (However, do not ever try to run kempas over HSS knives of any kind...)

I keep my knives sharp and the bed waxed. If a board stops moving, the feed rollers are dirty. DNA on them cleans them up and gives them the grip again. I got one of the first ones and it is still going strong. I do tend to use it for the last 1/16 of an inch unless the wood is prone to tear out. I am somewhat ashamed to say that I have used the same knives in the Delta 15" for the last 8 years without sharpening them. They are chipped but still sharp enough to do the majority of the wood hogging before the board sees the 735. It's also much faster and will cut an 1/8" off 15" wide poplar without missing a beat. I can't wait to see it work after I get around to setting the new knives I've had for 7 years.

Also, I hate to waste wood, but I'd shy away from cutting 3/16 off one face before planing any type of wood to get 3/4. I've had good luck with resawing bolivian rosewood with a hand saw to get bookmatched panels and it was very stable, but I think I just got lucky. I always plan to remove an equal amount from both faces.

I could definitely justify buying a nicer used 15"+ planer or an 8" jointer to upgrade my 6" one, but there's no way I would spend 5-6K on a tool that I have to switch between operations, and that I couldn't run a wider panel through. I just built a 2700 sq ft home and built three custom vanities, all the kitchen cabinets, custom pantry, and a custom island. Plus, every bit of trim in the home was custom made from poplar, from rough cut and 13/16 lumber. Even with the cost savings on the house, I couldn't justify a combo machine. (I did justify a Supermax 19-38 sander, I just wish it was before I finished the 700 feet of 7" base molding with a ROS.) And, several kitchen door panels were resawn, bookmatched cherry, with some really curly cherry thrown in for fun.

Dan

[Bill Dufour]

Julie,

I have one of these planers and you should jump on this offer. This is a real planer that with maintenance will last several lifetimes.

I use mine with the original 3 knife head (I do back-bevel the knives) and it has been a workhorse for 35 years.

You can check out the manual on OWWM (Parks 95)

Fine woodworking has an article on how to adjust a planer and the example machine is a Parks 12". I did not realize the knob to lift the front guard is actually the depth adjustment.
Bill D.

[Jim Becker]

Julie, are you building case work, or furniture? e

Julie has a bunch of threads in Woodworking Projects (where finished work and builds go) that illustrate her wonderful work...which spans both casework and furniture. She also builds guitars.

[Julie Moriarty]

Julie has a bunch of threads in Woodworking Projects (where finished work and builds go) that illustrate her wonderful work...which spans both casework and furniture. She also builds guitars.
Thank you, Jim! I was just thinking today how nice it would be to have a jointer for guitar necks.

We had a talk last night. We both agreed if all we did was purchase cabinets for the two bathrooms and laundry room the cost would quickly exceed the JP cost. I had a cheap jointer for years but gave it away before we moved. It was easier to get boards edge jointed by the supplier than mess with that thing. But I will admit even a cheap jointer was nice to have. Now I have to hand joint everything.

And then there's this - I talk myself out of doing a lot of things for lack of a jointer... and now a decent planer. One of our neighbors has expressed an interest in having me make a live edge coffee table but I balked at it because of all the handwork I'd have to do. But if I could make a few bucks on the side, that would ease the pain of a JP. I could also save over $400 by picking it up myself. We've been about a long weekend in Miami for a while. We could rent a trailer there and pick up a pallet jack here, do all the heavy lifting (like roller wheels), then return the jack and trailer all for a little over $100. Florida charges tax for deliveries making that $500 shipping actually $535.

With a couple of end tables and a live edge coffee table planned, sure would be nice to have a quality JP. This purchase may still have some life in it. But I will wait until the DW735 comes back. Maybe they won't be able to fix it and they send me back a new one. That would increase the value when selling it.

[Brian Holcombe]

Even a 16" machine doesn't get you very far with live edge stuff. You'd need a monster for that.

Great to have a wide jointer for everything else though. I put Aigner extensions on mine when I need them, I need them fairly often. For instance I'm flatting 16/4 x 8" x 120" material soon. That's heavy enough that I don't want to try and maintain it flat to the tables on my own doing, which is poor practice in any case.

[Jim Becker]

I agree with Brian about the benefit of having a wide jointer. It makes it a heck of a lot more versatile, including accommodating odd-shaped workpieces. It's hard to appreciate sometimes if there's no experience with an "aircraft carrier wide surface and cutter head", but it can be eye opening once one is available. A quality J/P provides that in a space that is a lot easier for many woodworkers to accommodate in their shops, too.

And Julie...a nice "romantic" trip to Miami to enjoy the area while picking up your new power tool will be fun!

[Julie Moriarty]

Even a 16" machine doesn't get you very far with live edge stuff. You'd need a monster for that.
For slabs, I use a router sled to level them
http://julimorcreations.com/2220/Kit/Island/Island_032.jpg

But for the legs that JP would sure make life easier. :)


And Julie...a nice "romantic" trip to Miami to enjoy the area while picking up your new power tool will be fun!
You should have been a power tool salesman, Jim. You would have made a killing! ;)

[Wakahisa Shinta]

Re: mobility for the Hammer A3-31

I did not get the Felder's mobility kit for my A3-31. I put the JP on leveling casters with ratchet adjustment because I wanted to move the JP in any direction. Later on, I ended up with a narrow-fork pallet jack for other heavy tools. Thinking back, I would not have purchased the caster given my experience with the pallet jack. Instead, I would bolt the JP onto a custom pallet and use the pallet jack to move it. The pallet jack costs about $250 new.

[Grant Aldridge]

Julie I'll throw in a mobile base recommendation for the Portamate brand, I have their highest rated one and a medium one (3500 & 2500 I think). The big one is under my 12" jointer and my 6yr old daughter could roll that machine around the shop! It cost about $140 off Amazon.

[Brian W Evans]

Put me in the iceberg camp. I had a DW735 and a 6" jointer for a long time and, while you can do quite a bit with them, my 16" JP (Minimax FS-41 Classic) is in such a different league that I do not consider milling lumber a chore anymore. I have the Tersa knives in mine and really like them. I had a Byrd in my old jointer and don't have a strong preference either way.

I would seriously think about going to the IWF as others have suggested. Maybe you can parlay your A3-31 money in to a 16" j/p for about the same price.

I wrote a review of the Portamate 3500 mobile base (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?249277-Review-PORTAMATE-Super-Duty-Universal-Mobile-Base-PM-3500) a while back. I'm very happy with it and don't find it at all difficult to move my machine around, although an uneven floor might be a big issue with any mobility option.

Best of luck in your decision. I look forward to seeing more of your work.

[Peter Christensen]

I don't understand the insistence of milling wood down to 3/4" for everything. Take it to whatever needed to get smooth and flat surfaces. 3/4" is just an industry standard because machines could always get that size from thicker or thinner rough 4/4 stock. Unless you do production work or need a given thickness to fit hardware or match something else you can do what looks best.

If you want the combination machine get it. You can always sell it for close to what you bought it for if you find it doesn't suit you after all.

[Greg Parrish]

WOW! Do they make that kind of discount at IWF? Wish I was able too make it up there.


Put me in the iceberg camp. I had a DW735 and a 6" jointer for a long time and, while you can do quite a bit with them, my 16" JP (Minimax FS-41 Classic) is in such a different league that I do not consider milling lumber a chore anymore. I have the Tersa knives in mine and really like them. I had a Byrd in my old jointer and don't have a strong preference either way.

I would seriously think about going to the IWF as others have suggested. Maybe you can parlay your A3-31 money in to a 16" j/p for about the same price.

I wrote a review of the Portamate 3500 mobile base (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?249277-Review-PORTAMATE-Super-Duty-Universal-Mobile-Base-PM-3500) a while back. I'm very happy with it and don't find it at all difficult to move my machine around, although an uneven floor might be a big issue with any mobility option.

Best of luck in your decision. I look forward to seeing more of your work.

[Jim Dwight]

I have a small shop and prefer to work from rough lumber. I haven't had the time to make much furniture since buying a 50 year old house in 2013 that needed a lot of work. I need to stop playing on my computer and get started pulling the balusters and sanding the last area of hardwood floor that needs refinished. When I get it done, I think I am done with the interior.

I have a 8 5/8 jointer with short beds, an INCA, and an old Ryobi AP-10 planner. I don't use the jointer much. If I face plane the boards, I usually end up to thin for my project. That might not happen with your supplier. But I don't have big difficulties using slightly non-flat lumber off the planner. I rip an edge straight on my DeWalt track saw. I could do this on the jointer but it's easier with the track saw.

I bought the Ryobi used for $100. It would hardly work but the issue ended up being totally VERY dull knives. With sharp knives, it has planned a couple hundred board feet or more so far. It only goes to 10 inches wide but that is seldom an issue. It it is, they can be ripped and glued back together. The head doesn't lock and it tends to snipe but it is very usable. For my purposes, I have no plans to upgrade my planner. It works fine for what I do. I have a couple bedroom sets to make when the house is finished - hopefully starting later this year. I am pretty sure it will all get planned with the little Ryobi.

I think a lunchbox planner isn't a serious limitation for most hobbiests. You seem to be on the high end of hobby work, however. It might make sense to get a floor standing planner, maybe a Grizzly if you want to keep the cost low. But it may create a space issue for you. Seems like your big issue is the DeWalt broke. Maybe you are wearing it out but it's hard to say.

[Van Huskey]

WOW! Do they make that kind of discount at IWF? Wish I was able too make it up there.

The best deals are if you bring a trailer and take home a machine that they have at the show. Felder usually has show specials but they also usually give the same deals if you order right around the show dates, they have the summer specials catalog out now and the A3 31 is on sale as others have mentioned. I think the only J/P Felder is bringing to IWF this year is an AD 941. Unless you are already going to be at IWF it is unlikely to save the cost of going unless you buy a floor machine.

[Brian Holcombe]

There is a CU300 minimax in the classifieds for $6500 located in FL. Might be worth looking into.

[Julie Moriarty]

No savings on shipping (with a long weekend in Miami thrown in there) because the JP is shipped from Delaware. Don't know why online there's a 4-8 week delay but through the sales rep you can get it right away. I thought the Miami rep had it there but he said they don't have a showroom or warehouse in Miami yet.

We'll be heading out shortly to buy some furniture. Something tells me the JP isn't on my SOs radar anymore. :(

[Jim Becker]

Bummer...I was looking forward to your big smile on acquiring a new machine!

[Randy Heinemann]

Seems like you have enough responses already but . . .

I don't own a drum sander but my understanding is that a drum sander is not a replacement for a planer. The amount of material that a drum sander can remove in a single pass is much less than a planer and the travel through the sander is much slower than a planer. I don't believe that a drum sander and a planer are meant to serve the same purpose although they both will flatten and thickness.

As for giving up woodworking, that sounds like something you aren't really considering and shouldn't.

I bought a Jet 8" helical head jointer over 5 years ago. I was never sorry. Don't know what width boards you normally are able to buy, but I rarely find boards wider than 8" so being able to flatten one side of a board before thickness planing made a huge difference in my woodworking. So, maybe wait for a Jet sale and see what the best price is you can get. The Jet HH jointer isn't the best on the market, but it does a great job; good clean surface and the carbide inserts have not yet needed to even be rotated.

As for the planer, I have owned my Dewalt 735 for over 10 years without a problem except that the knives could have a longer life. Hard to identify with the problems you describe, but I wouldn't expect a lot from Dewalt. They have been through many changes over the past several years and are great at making cordless tools, but their service access isn't what it was.

Judging from your posts, you plane a lot more lumber than I do, so a planer upgrade seems definitely in your future. Maybe a used one is a good option, but I'd do a lot of comparisons of prices for new versus used and service and parts over the life of the tool before you try used. The reason I have rarely bought used is that I'm a terrible judge of what could go wrong and I hate spending my time refurbishing equipment instead of woodworking. Even sharpening is sometimes irritating even though it's necessary.

I think combos are a great possibility. However, you might want to analyze your workflow. Sometimes a combo machine can change the order of things. For example, I normally joint one side of a board flat, then plane the board to thickness (or close depending on what I'm doing), and then joint one edge to either face, depending on direction of grain, and finally rip to the final width (joint the new smooth). That order of things would be cumbersome with a combo because of the changeover required (not a huge deal but still a little cumbersome).

In the end, with the apparent volume of lumber you are using, a Dewalt 735 is probably not heavy duty enough to handle it. A wide/long bed jointer is a godsend for processing rough lumber. Don't know if this helps at all.

[julian abram]

I didn’t mean to offend anyone with my DW735 comment, and I apologize if i did. I know they are popular and a great choice for a lot of folks. Just saying that compared to a bigger cast iron planer it’s hard to compare.

I could not agree more with this comment. Like many I started woodworking with a DW734, then sold it and bought a DW735. A few months ago I purchased a Grizzly 15" spiral four post. All 3 planers will surface wood but the Dewalts now seem like toys compared to operating the Griz. The Griz cuts smooth and easy like it's not even working, just coasting. No more screaming and straining as the stock moves through the planer. Just night and day difference.

[Larry Frank]

Every tool has its appropriate use. I have a 15" Jet and it is great for big jobs and big cuts. It works great. However, I also have a DW735 and use it for lighter cuts and smaller pieces. Given the serrated infeed roller, I have to take off quite a bit to remove the marks. With the DeWalt, I can take off precise amounts.

It is similar to having a big bandsaw for resaw which works great for that. I have a big Jet Bandsaw but also have a 10" Rikon for detail work that the Jet will not do.

[julian abram]

Every tool has its appropriate use. I have a 15" Jet and it is great for big jobs and big cuts. It works great. However, I also have a DW735 and use it for lighter cuts and smaller pieces. Given the serrated infeed roller, I have to take off quite a bit to remove the marks. With the DeWalt, I can take off precise amounts.

It is similar to having a big bandsaw for resaw which works great for that. I have a big Jet Bandsaw but also have a 10" Rikon for detail work that the Jet will not do.

Agree, very true.

[Julie Moriarty]

There's no question the DW735 planes smooth as butter. But with the problems I've had with it, I probably need something with more power. Reviews I've read on the Silent Power cutterblock on Format4/Felder/Hammer planers and jointers are impressive. From what I've seen in videos, you wouldn't need a second planer to smooth the surface.

BTW, the DW735 I sent in for warranty service seems to have been lost by Dewalt. They are shipping me a new planer.

[Steve Jenkins]

Sounds like you got the best resolution for the 735 that you can . I hope it works for you. I have a Felder 20” planer with a urethane infeed roller and smooth steel outfeed and you can take off just a couple thou if you need to. Mine just has straight knives. Occasionally with highly figured woods I wish for a helical head but not all that often. Planes nearly glass smooth with zero snipe.

[andy bessette]

...They are shipping me a new planer.

I would resell it immediately as a brand new planer.

[Ben Rivel]

I would resell it immediately as a brand new planer.
Good advice!

[Charles P. Wright]

I got a 16" combo and am super happy with it, but I realize that this is very expensive. I did a set of kitchen cabinets with a 6" ridgid jointer and a DW735. It was doable, but the bigger machine is a joy to use. The one piece of advise I have is that I was able to get by with a 1hp double bag dust collector, but the new J/P overwhelmed it because of the size of the shavings. A trash can separator sort of worked. This is maybe not an issue if you don't get straight knives like I did; but it would be terrible to blow all that money on the J/P and then have the frustration of jamming your DC system whenever you use it without having to drop even more money.

[Julie Moriarty]

The one piece of advise I have is that I was able to get by with a 1hp double bag dust collector, but the new J/P overwhelmed it because of the size of the shavings. A trash can separator sort of worked. This is maybe not an issue if you don't get straight knives like I did; but it would be terrible to blow all that money on the J/P and then have the frustration of jamming your DC system whenever you use it without having to drop even more money.
I've been wondering about that. My DC is only 3/4HP. If I managed to swing a JP, it would definitely have a Silent Power cutterblock. That would ease the load on the DC some. I used to have a 6" jointer and that, and the 12" planer, would occasionally clog the ductwork at one 90 bend. When I installed the ductwork in the new place, I made sure to avoid the pitfalls of the last ductwork layout.

I've got 6" coming into the cyclone, reduced to 4" to the machines, so I planned to upsize the run from the JP to 6", if I bought it. I'll worry about that when, and if, I place the order.

[Jim Becker]

Julie, your DC is "a bit" undersized if you start milling wide stock with the J/P (or similar tools), so you'll want it as close as possible and with as short a hose as you can manage.

[Julie Moriarty]

Julie, your DC is "a bit" undersized if you start milling wide stock with the J/P (or similar tools), so you'll want it as close as possible and with as short a hose as you can manage.

In my last shop there was 15'or more from where the jointer or planer were hooked into the ductwork. Now it's about 5'. It's taken everything I've thrown at it so far, even when the DW735 head dropped on a 12" wide board. ;)

On another note, one thing I wasn't crazy about with the JP combo was raising and lowering the planer bed every time you switch it over. This may solve that problem. :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veJPpksmW8w

[Jim Dwight]

A small DC is more compatible with a lunchbox planner. I had a really small one and it could not keep up with my 8 5/8 jointer. The thin stock removal per pass generates chips at a lower rate than is possible with a bigger sturdier and possibly wider tool. Removal of more chips requires more airflow.

I do not love making a bunch of passes for my lunchbox planner but it is an upgrade from the planner head with manual feed for my old Inca. That was REALLY a chore. But not as bad as hand planes. I guess it's all relative.

With a big jointer/planner you could do what I do now and just sweep up. The chips from planning are a lot easier and quicker to sweep up than is the dust from sawing or sanding.

[Jim Becker]

Julie, a number of folks use the old drill/driver trick to raise/lower the thicknessing bed on a J/P for convenience. I don't mind cranking mine and it doesn't take much time, but the method is valid for sure.

Don't underestimate just how much material you can produce from the J/P out the DC port...and DC is required for it to work. It's a real mess to clean out the hood if you get ti clogged with the "fluffy" shavings that come off some kinds of materials, especially softwoods. DAMHIKT....my cyclone upgrade was predicated on this from, um....experience... ;)

[Julie Moriarty]

Maybe my physics is flawed, but if I am taking the same thickness from the same width board at the same speed, the amount of shavings from any planer should be the same. The max width board on the Delta was 12-1/4", the Dewalt is 13". Since setting up the DC here, I haven't had any problems with clogging. The max width board on the Hammer A3 31 is 12". Unless I start hogging off big chunks from full width boards, physics says there shouldn't be any problems.

Am I missing something here?

[Brian Holcombe]

The Dewalt has a blower, if I'm not mistaken. I think that is the difference.

A good dust collector is a must, IMO. If you have room for it get the largest bin or double bins so that you can work for a while without emptying them. I have a 30 gal and it is a PITA. I made bookcases recently and created something like 200gal of shavings. That's dumping the container about 8-10 times (you can't fill it up all the way), with a 55 gal that would be 4-5 times. Seems trivial until you're doing it all the time.

I have a V-3000 and I would not have regretted a more powerful DC.

[Greg Parrish]

Same here. V-3000 here too and my dewalt fills it quickly too. It does have a blower so I’ll be interested to see how the hammer likes it.



The Dewalt has a blower, if I'm not mistaken. I think that is the difference.

A good dust collector is a must, IMO. If you have room for it get the largest bin or double bins so that you can work for a while without emptying them. I have a 30 gal and it is a PITA. I made bookcases recently and created something like 200gal of shavings. That's dumping the container about 8-10 times (you can't fill it up all the way), with a 55 gal that would be 4-5 times. Seems trivial until you're doing it all the time.

I have a V-3000 and I would not have regretted a more powerful DC.

[Ben Rivel]

The Dewalt has a blower, if I'm not mistaken. I think that is the difference.

A good dust collector is a must, IMO. If you have room for it get the largest bin or double bins so that you can work for a while without emptying them. I have a 30 gal and it is a PITA. I made bookcases recently and created something like 200gal of shavings. That's dumping the container about 8-10 times (you can't fill it up all the way), with a 55 gal that would be 4-5 times. Seems trivial until you're doing it all the time.

I have a V-3000 and I would not have regretted a more powerful DC.


Same here. V-3000 here too and my dewalt fills it quickly too. It does have a blower so I’ll be interested to see how the hammer likes it.

You guys satisfied with the suction of the V-3000 and just wish you had gone with the 55 gal drum? Or you're finding that the 3HP isnt enough for a 12"+ planer?

[Brian Holcombe]

My planer is 16". 3hp is enough, but I would not have regretted more.

35gal drum is a PITA, I would much rather have 55gal.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Ben, I have a 1.5HP Oneida cyclone and it works fine with a Hammer A3-31 12" jointer/planer.............Regards, Rod.

[Julie Moriarty]

The Dewalt has a blower, if I'm not mistaken. I think that is the difference.
My present DC worked with the Delta 22-540 for years at the old place, except for occasional blockage at one 90 elbow. I redid the elbow and that seemed to fix the problem. I ran that same planer in the new place, with a ductwork layout designed from lessons learned, without any problems for the first two years here. So, from my personal experience, I'm not seeing why there would be any issues unless, maybe, I pushed the JP to its limits.

[Jim Becker]

My planer is 16". 3hp is enough, but I would not have regretted more.

35gal drum is a PITA, I would much rather have 55gal.
When I got my very first Oneida system it had the 35 gallon drum. That didn't last long...55 gallon since and I can fill that thang pretty darn fast, too, with the J/P! Is the stand yours is on adjustable in height? If I recall from my visit, it's on some kind of tripod or similar...

Rod, I had the 1.5hp unit at first, but had to upgrade after I got my J/P as it didn't have enough velocity to keep the duct work from plugging with certain material.

[Greg Parrish]

It’s on a pipe stand. They sell pipe extension risers to plug on when using the 55 gal drum.

I have the metal 35 gal drum and it’s fine for me. I’m in a neighborhood with a very small yard though so dealing with 55 gals would be difficult with no easy place to dump it. I bag my current sawdust and give it away. Reuse the bags for a while since they are nice thick bags. I made a pvc riser for mine that allows me to have casters under my drum for ease of movement. Works great so far.

I dont really think the 5hp was needed for mine but it’s a small space. The 3hp seems fine but a larger drum would be nice in some cases.

[John Lanciani]

You guys satisfied with the suction of the V-3000 and just wish you had gone with the 55 gal drum? Or you're finding that the 3HP isnt enough for a 12"+ planer?

3Hp is plenty, +/-1 cubic yard (200 gallon) bin is just about right; https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?207858-Dust-collector-pics-and-ideas&highlight=

[Rod Sheridan]

Jim, I'm lucky, I have 5 feet of duct to the J/P, and my cyclone has been modified from the internal filter to a much larger external filter. That helped the flow...........Rod.

[Jim Becker]

Jim, I'm lucky, I have 5 feet of duct to the J/P, and my cyclone has been modified from the internal filter to a much larger external filter. That helped the flow...........Rod.
I had the external filter mod, too...but the run was a little longer. That system is still in daily use at a friend's shop...I bought it in 2000 so it's paid for itself more than once for more than one woodworker, IMHO. :) The bigger impeller on my 2hp Commercial (predecessor to the Gorilla) handles everything I ask it to, although at this point with the CNC, I wish for bigger so I could use it for more than one machine at a time effectively.

[Brian Holcombe]

When I got my very first Oneida system it had the 35 gallon drum. That didn't last long...55 gallon since and I can fill that thang pretty darn fast, too, with the J/P! Is the stand yours is on adjustable in height? If I recall from my visit, it's on some kind of tripod or similar...

Rod, I had the 1.5hp unit at first, but had to upgrade after I got my J/P as it didn't have enough velocity to keep the duct work from plugging with certain material.

I think they make an extension for the stand. I may make that change before the next big milling job, dumping out that bin every few passes gets tiring.

[Albert Lee]

It’s on a pipe stand. They sell pipe extension risers to plug on when using the 55 gal drum.

I have the metal 35 gal drum and it’s fine for me. I’m in a neighborhood with a very small yard though so dealing with 55 gals would be difficult with no easy place to dump it. I bag my current sawdust and give it away. Reuse the bags for a while since they are nice thick bags. I made a pvc riser for mine that allows me to have casters under my drum for ease of movement. Works great so far.

I dont really think the 5hp was needed for mine but it’s a small space. The 3hp seems fine but a larger drum would be nice in some cases.

I have 2x55 gal bags on my dust extractor, if I am in planning/thicknessing mode. both of these bags will be filled within an hour.

I dont dump my shavings/dust. I put them in a wheelie bin like this, they are 250litres, which is about 55gal. I have 4-5 bins like this, a lot tidier than a lot of dust/shavings floating around. I live in a suburban area too. I put them on social media for people to collect, for free.

391984

I am so gonna get that briquette press. stopping and opening up my dusty every hour is not fun.

[Martin Wasner]

The chips that an inset head makes are pretty easy to pull through a dust collector. Granular and small, they flow nicely and are more forgiving than what comes off of a straight knife.

The rare occasion we're planing hard, we'll fill a 55 gallon drum every five minutes. My lack of ability to clear sawdust from the hopper is the main reason I haven't put the moulder online yet. It will probably be worse than the planer.

[Jim Becker]

I think they make an extension for the stand. I may make that change before the next big milling job, dumping out that bin every few passes gets tiring.

Yea, worth it, IMHO. I actually stuck the motor of my Oneida unit up between the ceiling joists to insure I could get a 55 gallon bin under it with enough slack in the connection between the bin and the cone so that it wasn't arduous to empty.

[Frank Pratt]

Hmm, I used to use a Ridgid shop vac with my 13 Delta planer & rarely had issues with it plugging up. I never took much more than about 1/32 off a full width board at a time though. There were lots more renegade chips that escaped though.

I too have a 35 gal drum & wish it was bigger, but the DC room only has an 8' ceiling, so I live with it.

[Van Huskey]

The rare occasion we're planing hard, we'll fill a 55 gallon drum every five minutes. My lack of ability to clear sawdust from the hopper is the main reason I haven't put the moulder online yet. It will probably be worse than the planer.

Time to pull out the checkbook and purchase a rotary air lock. :D I love spending other peoples money!

[Julie Moriarty]

I got the OK to buy the A3 31 but now have some concerns.

> I'd be storing the JP with the width parallel to the wall and the 5' length coming out from the wall. With the mobile kit Hammer makes, the axle of the two wheels is perpendicular to the length. No matter how I imagine it, that configuration would complicate storing the machine. I'd probably need a different mobile base. But would it be stable with the turning wheels across the width?

> With all the talk about needing a larger DC, if that is truly necessary, purchasing the JP is out. No way I can afford the JP AND a new DC. Out of the question.

This is what I have right now (less the DW735 which is somewhere in UPS limbo)
http://julimorcreations.com/Images/CycDC/dc_PGI_01.jpg

If I replaced the 6" elbow with a T and came straight out of the T with an elbow, down the the JP with 6" hose, would this work? Or do you all feel there's no way a 3/4 HP cyclone DC with 30 gallon drum can handle a 12" jointer-planer?

I don't care about having to empty the drum often. When it's full, it's a challenge to dump the chips as it is now, and I'm not getting any younger. This will have to do.

If the jury is unanimous introducing a 12" JP to the existing DC system will never work, I'll have to plant a money tree out back.

[Prashun Patel]

Julie, check out this thread:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?235004-Please-Hammer-don-t-hurt-em-(A3-31-set-up)/page4

I had the same concern as you. I prefer the "great lakes" style casters. They are pretty strong fairly stable. The trick is to get good washers for the top of the stems. Over time, if the nuts loosen, the casters can sag. This will lead to permanent braking. DAMHIKT...

You will have to drill two holes and find a way to elevate the machine will mounting the casters. Unless you have a forklift ;)

If you find your current dc fine with the DW735, then you shouldn't have a problem with the A3-31. For a while I ran mine connected to a 3/4hp portable single stage unit with poor filtration. It worked fine. In fact, i would argue it works better ((for the jp) than my current set up using a 3hp cyclone. The dust collection was fine, and the portable's bag was WAY more convenient to change.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Julie, get the mobility kit for the wheels and tow bar, then drill 2 holes in the planer infeed end of the cabinet for the new axle location.

I made a base for mine however that wasn't really required, I could have just drilled the cabinet to change the axle orientation.

I have a 1.5HP Oneida cyclone that works great with the A3-31, it has the smaller (35 gallon??) bin and that's as heavy as I want when it's full of sawdust.

Here's a shot of my A3-31 on the mobile base.

392026392027

[Robert Engel]

Julie,

Don't have time to read the thread if you've bought a machine, disregard.

I own a both a 8" Grizzly jointer and 20" planer been in use for ~10 years not one single issue.

Check the Grizzly combo machine $1500.

[Frank Pratt]

I got the OK to buy the A3 31 but now have some concerns.

> I'd be storing the JP with the width parallel to the wall and the 5' length coming out from the wall. With the mobile kit Hammer makes, the axle of the two wheels is perpendicular to the length. No matter how I imagine it, that configuration would complicate storing the machine. I'd probably need a different mobile base. But would it be stable with the turning wheels across the width?

I wonder if a SawStop ICS mobile base could be adapted to work for that. It has 4 swivel casters & a hydraulic lift. Works very well.

[Jim Becker]

Julie, never, never, ever use a "Tee" in a dust collection system. Just provide a port you can use with the J/P as close to the DC as you can for best results. You "should" be fine for now as long as you don't take "big bites" with the machine.

[Julie Moriarty]

Julie, never, never, ever use a "Tee" in a dust collection system.
Right, it should be a Y. And I can do that. But did you see that T at the top in the picture above? :o

[Julie Moriarty]

Julie, check out this thread:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?235004-Please-Hammer-don-t-hurt-em-(A3-31-set-up)/page4

I had the same concern as you. I prefer the "great lakes" style casters. They are pretty strong fairly stable. The trick is to get good washers for the top of the stems. Over time, if the nuts loosen, the casters can sag. This will lead to permanent braking. DAMHIKT...

You will have to drill two holes and find a way to elevate the machine will mounting the casters. Unless you have a forklift ;)

If you find your current dc fine with the DW735, then you shouldn't have a problem with the A3-31. For a while I ran mine connected to a 3/4hp portable single stage unit with poor filtration. It worked fine. In fact, i would argue it works better ((for the jp) than my current set up using a 3hp cyclone. The dust collection was fine, and the portable's bag was WAY more convenient to change.
Thanks, Prashun. Those casters you have look pretty heavy duty. I think the heaviest machine I have on wheels is 300 lbs. From what I read, the A3 31 is 700. I was looking at jointer mobile bases as a possibility.

From reading your linked thread, the issue about the DC not picking up all the chips is something I can relate to from the last place. With the Delta 22-540 and 20' or more of duct to the DC, I often found chips laying about the planer. Using that same planer in the new shop, I didn't see that but the distance was much less and all the joints are taped.


Hi Julie, get the mobility kit for the wheels and tow bar, then drill 2 holes in the planer infeed end of the cabinet for the new axle location.

I made a base for mine however that wasn't really required, I could have just drilled the cabinet to change the axle orientation.

I have a 1.5HP Oneida cyclone that works great with the A3-31, it has the smaller (35 gallon??) bin and that's as heavy as I want when it's full of sawdust.

Thanks Rod. I like your mobile base. It looks pretty sturdy. I made a mobile base for my 300 lb bandsaw out of Unistrut. I had everything laying around so I gave it a shot. The biggest problem was, in trying to prevent the base from being too unwieldy, I didn't give the casters enough room to rotate 360. It was still too unwieldy so I dumped it during the move.

I was thinking of using the Hammer mobile kit and drilling holes where needed. My only concern was would the wheel axle being parallel to the width make the whole thing unstable? I'm guessing it's pretty top heavy.

[Rick Potter]

An inexpensive way to make a HD base is to use a chunk of 1 1/8" flooring underlay plywood, and mount four all metal wheels (rotating) from Home Depot. They are 5 or 6 bucks each, and have held up much heavier loads than you have.

The wheels come in 2 and 3" sizes. I just got some 3" to mount under my 37" Woodmaster sander.

To lock the wheels just make some 'C' shaped blocks to hold the wheels when in use. If you want to get fancy, install long bolts in the ply to reach the floor and screw them down to hold it steady.

I know it sounds cheesy, but it works great.

[Rod Sheridan]

Maybe my physics is flawed, but if I am taking the same thickness from the same width board at the same speed, the amount of shavings from any planer should be the same. The max width board on the Delta was 12-1/4", the Dewalt is 13". Since setting up the DC here, I haven't had any problems with clogging. The max width board on the Hammer A3 31 is 12". Unless I start hogging off big chunks from full width boards, physics says there shouldn't be any problems.

Am I missing something here?

Yes you're missing 2 things

1) the Hammer feed speed is 6 metres/minute, a lot faster than your lunchbox planer.

2) The depth of cut on the Hammer is going to be much deeper ( you're going to typically take a couple of millimetres off per pass). You'll make way more chips in the same time period.........Rod.

P.S> That doesn't necessarily mean you'll have clogging issues as the Hammer uses a 120mm port (5").

[David Kumm]

The other issue is size and shape of the chips. Long stringy shavings will tend to clog easier than the chips created by a spiral head. At least that has been my experience. The design of the internal dust chute, the head itself, and the make up air available also impact the cfm under pressure needed. Two collectors that read the same cfm at the machine port might not pick up the chips the same depending on how the additional restriction of the machine itself affects the change in static pressure and the ability of the impeller and system to deliver cfm at that higher pressure. Dave

[Warren Lake]

out of interest one of the reasons I bought my original machines from one dealer was talking to him he told me about being hired by industry to do different tweaks to factory equipment. One of them was devising a way to break up shavings so there was less clogging. Its too long ago now to remember how he did that. He was hired by big veneer companies and others and once we talked it was clear he wasnt a guy in a nice shirt compared to the other dealers. Bonus as well his prices were lower and saved enough to buy one more machine and delivery at the time was free two more bonuses.

[Jim Becker]

Right, it should be a Y. And I can do that. But did you see that T at the top in the picture above? :o

Um...yea...I did. ;)

[Charles P. Wright]

Julie,

I think you are in a much better position than I was. I had no cyclone, just the hose going straight to a fan before the bags. Also I have straight knives, your helical head shouldn't create the same long shavings that the Tersa head does.

Good luck.

Charles

[Van Huskey]

Another reason the Hammer may create more chip issues is that the Dewalt has a blower built in to help evacuate chips, as Rod noted we can't say you will have issues but there are multiple reasons pointed out here that indicate you MIGHT.

[Martin Wasner]

Congratulations Julie. You will be much happier with that machine than your current setup.

Have fun jamming the appropriate SO cord into the box on it. Every euro machine I've got made my electrician curse.

[Chris Parks]

I put mine on a particle board base with four casters under that.....about 4 years ago and it still works fine and I can push it in any direction. The absolute must have with the Hammer is the in handle height gauge, deadly accurate, saves a heap of time, repeatable and brings a smile to my face every time I use it because it is mechanical and mechanical stuff does not work as well as digital so we are told.

[Julie Moriarty]

Every euro machine I've got made my electrician curse.
We electricians are prone to complaining. And gossiping. The often told joke was "The three forms of mass communication are telephone, television and tell an electrician."

[Clint Baxter]

Stability shouldn’t be an issue as long as you don’t decrease the footprint of the base. The leveling feet in the front are actually offset a little from the corners so casters such as Pratel mentions would maintain that footprint.

392041392042

You can see the location of the wheel as well as the leveling foot. The A3-31 sits very solidly on these points without any rocking or movement.

Clint

[Jacques Gagnon]

...maybe because electricians are well versed in « current » affairs?🤓

[Martin Wasner]

...maybe because electricians are well versed in « current » affairs?🤓

Don't get me going on electrical puns. Ohm so many, and I don't have the spark for resistance. Watt were you thinking switching that idea on anyways?

[Jacques Gagnon]

Ok Martin you win. From now on I will follow your lead and benefit from your common sense.

[Warren Lake]

I buy some electrical supplies from a well known electrical supplier. The family last name is Watt. I questioned him years ago and it really is. I think the bus was even in his last name many years then sold and he had to started up in another location not using his name.

Martin ive always hooked up with a Hubbel strain relief into the box on the machine. I will say that most of the older Italian machines I have have crap plastic boxes on the outside and on almost all the used machines I buy they are broken. The Hubble strain relief is a bit of a bother to get the cable into at times, ive sliced a bit of the outside jacket slightly and usually throw some spit on there to get it to slide in and to bottom out in the connector still its a strain. They are a bit pricey but I like them and seemed to have a pretty good stock from the past, likely faint when I need to buy more.

[Julie Moriarty]

Yes you're missing 2 things

1) the Hammer feed speed is 6 metres/minute, a lot faster than your lunchbox planer.

2) The depth of cut on the Hammer is going to be much deeper ( you're going to typically take a couple of millimetres off per pass). You'll make way more chips in the same time period.........Rod.

P.S> That doesn't necessarily mean you'll have clogging issues as the Hammer uses a 120mm port (5").
I was trying to find the feed rate of the Delta 22-540 so I could compare it to the A3 31. One site said 22.6 ft/min or 6.9m/min, faster than the A3 31.

In this picture you can see what I had set up in the old shop, including a visual on the distance to the DC.
http://julimorcreations.com/Images/KitCab/Kit_Cab_07.png
None of the PVC fittings were glued in so there was probably some loss there and the change over from PVC to metal wasn't the tightest fit but I did duct tape those connections. With the above setup there was always some chips that didn't get sucked up by the DC. I don't remember seeing any evidence of them hurting the finish of the boards though.

As for how much I'd take off a board, I would have complete control over that. So it looks like the DC issue may be workable.

FWIW, in the above picture I was planing about two dozen boards, 6"-9" wide and over 9' long. Never once did the planer overload trip or bog down and stop. After what I've seen from the DW735, I have no confidence it would perform as well. The new one is supposed to arrive today.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Julie, I think you'll find that that is the no load speed on the lunchbox, they're a lot slower than the A3-31 in use.

You are correct in that you will determine cut depth, however once you have a real planer you will be taking deep cuts to save time and cutters.........Have fun with the A3, you're going to love it......Rod.

[Julie Moriarty]

Stability shouldn’t be an issue as long as you don’t decrease the footprint of the base. The leveling feet in the front are actually offset a little from the corners so casters such as Pratel mentions would maintain that footprint.

You can see the location of the wheel as well as the leveling foot. The A3-31 sits very solidly on these points without any rocking or movement.

Clint
Thank you, Clint. And thank you again for answering my PM. The footprint dimensions you supplied - 630mm, (24-3/4”), across the front and 490mm, (a little over 19-1/4”) - eased my concerns about installing the wheel axle parallel to the width. But I still have some concern about the single point pivot of the lifting bar. Each use will require a 90 degree turn before setting it back down. If that thing ever went over, that would be bad.

I was looking at the Portamate 3500. That would seem to work pretty well for my situation. But I have no idea how I could lift a 700 lb machine onto that base. At the last shop I used a ratcheting lift secured to the bottom of the floor trusses to pick up my 300 lb bandsaw and set it into a similar mobile base. That was a bear!

Thinking back on work, I've been involved in moving plenty of transformers and switchgear many times heaver than the A3 31. We'd use a Johnson bar to pry them up and put what we called "tanks" under the corners to move the gear into place. Those tanks were amazing! But the four corners of the PM 3500 are connected by square bar stock that encloses the interior space where the machine goes, so the entire machine would have to be lifted up and set back down in the PM 3500.

When I started this thread, I thought money was the only issue. Was I wrong!

[Julie Moriarty]

I just looked back on Clint's pictures and it dawned on me if I used Hammer's mobile kit with the lifting handle, installed 90 degrees to Clint's, would the handle hit the planer bed when trying to lift that end of the machine off the floor?

[Julie Moriarty]

... however once you have a real planer you will be taking deep cuts ...
Oh yeah, if only for the sheer satisfaction of being able to do it! :D

[Bryan Lisowski]

Julie, congrats on the new machine. If you order the base first and have it assembled, getting the machine on shouldn't be to big of an issue. You can shimmy the J/P off the pallet and onto the base.

[Brian W Evans]

I was looking at the Portamate 3500. That would seem to work pretty well for my situation. But I have no idea how I could lift a 700 lb machine onto that base. At the last shop I used a ratcheting lift secured to the bottom of the floor trusses to pick up my 300 lb bandsaw and set it into a similar mobile base. That was a bear!

Thinking back on work, I've been involved in moving plenty of transformers and switchgear many times heaver than the A3 31. We'd use a Johnson bar to pry them up and put what we called "tanks" under the corners to move the gear into place. Those tanks were amazing! But the four corners of the PM 3500 are connected by square bar stock that encloses the interior space where the machine goes, so the entire machine would have to be lifted up and set back down in the PM 3500.

Julie,

I put a PM 3500 under a Minimax FS41 Classic J/P without lifting it. Did it right on the pallet, then rolled the machine down a shop-made ramp onto the floor. My father (in his 70s) and I did it without breaking a sweat. IIRC, my Minimax weighs about 10% more than the A3-31.

Here's the process: Use a pry bar to lift one corner of the machine at a time and assemble the mobile base corners and stretchers under the machine. Once the corners and stretchers are assembled under the machine, pry the mobile base up and put the wheels on. Definitely a two person job but not difficult. Unlike many mobile bases, the 3500 has threaded holes for the bolts connecting the stretchers to the corners - there are no nuts to tighten on the inside. This makes assembling around the machine possible, or at least easier.

One last thing: I think I used 2x4s to lift the machine so I wouldn't damage it, but I definitely used an iron bar to lift the mobile base.

[Jim Becker]

Julie, if the base you are considering can be assembled flush or nearly flush to the floor, you can raise one end of the tool, block things up, slide the parts in place and tput things together before jacking and removing the blocking, lowering, etc. You may even be able to incorporate this process into the work you'll do to remove the tool from its pallet upon receipt.

I have a base I use with my lathe that's setup that way. In the very, very rare situation where I need to move the tool, I just jack up one end, place that side of the base, lower the tool, jack up the other side of the tool, place the other half of the base and go from there.

[Rod Sheridan]

I just looked back on Clint's pictures and it dawned on me if I used Hammer's mobile kit with the lifting handle, installed 90 degrees to Clint's, would the handle hit the planer bed when trying to lift that end of the machine off the floor?

Hi, I rotated the axis of movement 90 degrees ( as you saw in the photographs I posted).

I don't have an issue with that.

The only issue you might have is that when you couple the handle to the machine, you might have to have it forward or back of the table, until you lift it, in other words, it doesn't matter........Rod.

[Julie Moriarty]

Thank you, guys. I'm trying to make sure this is the right decision. The replacement 735 just arrived and I'm not feeling the love. I know I'll be thrilled with the A3 31 but I also know the sheer weight of that machine will be a challenge. I want to cover all the bases before making the purchase. I don't want any surprises.

One more question, if anyone knows the answer. Is it a crazy idea to utilize the Wixey WR10 I had installed on the 735 and mount it to the A3 31? I saw a picture of one mounted to a Jet JJP-12.
http://www.wixey.com/planer/fit/jet-jjp12/03.jpg

Or is the dial indicator Felder makes so superior that I should sell the Wixey with the 735?

[Derek Cohen]

Julie, the dial indicator on the A3-31 is just so accurate. Mine is in metric and I can dial in 0.1mm. Plus it does not require a battery. The Wixey is a toy alongside it. (I do like Wixey, and have one on my Hammer K3 slider).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Warren Lake]

Never had the digital stuff I use my caliper and its fine. The weight thing its a bit of a bother to move heavier stuff. I dont see much difference moving a machine if its 1,300 lbs or 2,500 lbs. Heavy is heavy. There is no substitute for a heavy machine. My General 8" jointer works. Its levels below the heavy SCM combo.

[Dan Friedrichs]

I mounted the remote-reading Wixey on my C3-31. In retrospect, I wish I had bought the handwheel. Buy the handwheel.

The Wixey works fine, but the "robustness" seems more aligned with a lunchbox planer.

[Rod Sheridan]

Thank you, guys. I'm trying to make sure this is the right decision. The replacement 735 just arrived and I'm not feeling the love. I know I'll be thrilled with the A3 31 but I also know the sheer weight of that machine will be a challenge. I want to cover all the bases before making the purchase. I don't want any surprises.

One more question, if anyone knows the answer. Is it a crazy idea to utilize the Wixey WR10 I had installed on the 735 and mount it to the A3 31? I saw a picture of one mounted to a Jet JJP-12.
http://www.wixey.com/planer/fit/jet-jjp12/03.jpg

Or is the dial indicator Felder makes so superior that I should sell the Wixey with the 735?

Yes, you should use the Felder mechanical gauge, preferably in metric.

Stop worrying about the weight, the mobility kit makes it extremely easy to move. It's not like you're going to be carrying the j/p up and down the stairs all day :D

[Stephen Ryan]

I wonder if a SawStop ICS mobile base could be adapted to work for that. It has 4 swivel casters & a hydraulic lift. Works very well.

I have an A3-31 sitting on a SawStop ICS mobile base; it doesn't fit as-is because the back wall of the A3 is a couple of inches too long to fit (it looks like it's only 1/4" too long, but there's a lifting bar in the mobile base that needs some extra clearance). I ended up putting a couple of sheets of plywood in the base to raise the floor up high enough for the A3-31 to clear the lifting bar in the back of the mobile base, which works well enough, but it does raise the whole thing up by an inch and a half.

[Julie Moriarty]

Stop worrying about the weight, the mobility kit makes it extremely easy to move. It's not like you're going to be carrying the j/p up and down the stairs all day :D
Once it's on the mobile base, my worries about weight are over. It's getting it from the pallet to the mobile base that's got me concerned. I have memories of almost killing myself moving a 300 lb bandsaw up four stairs. I thought my heart was going to burst! But in my older age, I'm tending to be a bit more sensible. Imagine that! :rolleyes:

[Jim Becker]

Once it's on the mobile base, my worries about weight are over. It's getting it from the pallet to the mobile base that's got me concerned. I have memories of almost killing myself moving a 300 lb bandsaw up four stairs. I thought my heart was going to burst! But in my older age, I'm tending to be a bit more sensible. Imagine that! :rolleyes:
This is why you link the two operations....move it off the pallet directly onto your choice of mobility solution to minimize lifting, etc.

[Warren Lake]

if you set your digital gauge to .7500 and run your material say a 12" wide board then take a caliper and measure both sides what do you get on the caliper

[Peter Christensen]

I can't remember if you have a basement shop or in the garage. If the garage a local rental centre will have an engine crane that will easily lift the machine to put the cart under. It shouldn't cost all that much to rent for a half day or the day and can be broken down into small enough parts to carry in pieces and move in the trunk of a car. I have my own and for the last couple decades it has been indispensable. Good rope or some slings are all you need. Good time to pick up any other heavies at the same time that need moving or lifting. Anvils, big flower pots, logs and the like. ;)

[Clint Baxter]

I can't remember if you have a basement shop or in the garage. If the garage a local rental centre will have an engine crane that will easily lift the machine to put the cart under. It shouldn't cost all that much to rent for a half day or the day and can be broken down into small enough parts to carry in pieces and move in the trunk of a car. I have my own and for the last couple decades it has been indispensable. Good rope or some slings are all you need. Good time to pick up any other heavies at the same time that need moving or lifting. Anvils, big flower pots, logs and the like. ;)

This would be the simplest way to place it on something like the Portamate.

However, I’m with Rod in the suggestion to mount the mobility kit at the end of the long axis instead of across the long axis. Ive never felt it to be tippy when moving it, but I don’t typically spin it 90degrees that often. I have done it in the past however and noticed nothing.

Clint

[Rick Potter]

Don't you have a pool boy who could do that for you? ;)

[Julie Moriarty]

Garage, Peter. I looked into an engine hoist. They have the knockdown version as well as tow behind. With most of the heavy equipment I've lifted at work, there are specific points where slings and such go. With a JP, do you just wrap the slings under the table?

[Peter Christensen]

Julie if the manual for the machine is any good and I don’t see why it wouldn’t be, there should be a diagram of where and how to lift it.

[Martin Wasner]

With a JP, do you just wrap the slings under the table?

NO!

There should be specific lift points, or a slot to put a fitting into to lift from.

General millwright rule, if it moves, don't lift from it.

[Jim Becker]

Garage, Peter. I looked into an engine hoist. They have the knockdown version as well as tow behind. With most of the heavy equipment I've lifted at work, there are specific points where slings and such go. With a JP, do you just wrap the slings under the table?
My J/P actually has decals that mark the lift-points.

[Julie Moriarty]

That's what I was thinking. The locking handles would be taking all the weight of the cabinet below the table and anything in it (like a heavy motor). The pictures I've seen don't show any sign of lifting points. Many heavy items we've lifted on the job will have removable lifting eyes, but that would seem overkill for something the size of a JP.

Last night we had what is probably our last conversation about justifying a major tool purchase. It went something like this...

Q: Why do you need to spend $5K on a planer?
A: Because no one will give one to me. (levity intended)

Have you looked at other similar jointer planers?
Yes. I looked at Jet, cheaper but mixed reviews, and Minimax but don't know their price range. Probably close to Hammer.

What is it you don't like about the Dewalt?
Right out of the box it was a screamer. I even posted that on SMC. But the surface it produces is so smooth I resigned myself to needing ear plugs and muffs when using it. Then the other problems started. Head dropping during planing. Breakers tripping. Motor overload tripping and feed rollers slipping. I felt I was worse off than with the old planer and I hadn't even had the Dewalt a year. And the knives they supply don't last long and cost $80 per set. I was already on the second set when I sent it in for service.

How much would you use the jointer planer?
Well, look at all we have left to finish in this house - two bathrooms and the laundry room, I still have to make legs for the live edge coffee table plus two end tables. And if it's everything I believe it to be, I'll probably be looking for things to make after the house is done.

Can you get by with what you have?
Sure. But considering the fact we no longer have a hardwood source that offers planed boards, will joint an edge upon request and do any milling you want for a fee, a jointer planer here is almost a necessity. I could use the drum sander for thicknessing boards and hand planes for jointing and flattening. Lots of work. But yes, I can get by with what I have.

Could you generate any income with the Hammer?
Possibly. There's a lot of work in planing and jointing. A JP cuts that to a fraction. I've considered making live edge tables to generate income but have no idea how that would go. It would be great to sell some of my work but I'm not much of a salesperson.

Well, maybe I can help you with that. If it will make you happy, then buy it.

I'm not sure if I effectively justified the purchase or just whined my way into a Yes.

[Jim Becker]

https://rgffqg.dm.files.1drv.com/y4mTrU87H2J5rnXhDEBJAtWdQc8DejhEjUXMURq0FPYi9ZLC_r Uhf7NtkIMCZmIXfqlejt9yFfKkrHhqVoQrrrnwpCT2pJWKeiRQ ZAzPNl1Gwu44SQDRQsS_DrRk60ppOz7WVFuWqA9QC9DG75wOu5 rkqhoLtySgxh1z0fW1iQ-nEa6ALvgdbvLtEp7JkB-aVMMNLR_4btxKfN38__bywmmMA?width=480&height=360&cropmode=none

[Rod Sheridan]

Julie, there is absolutely no need to lift the J/P at all.

There are 2 methods of doing this

1) using a pallet jack and the 2 lifting bolt holes in the J/P for the other fork. Then drive it down a wood ramp onto the floor.

2) put a pry bar underneath it, lift it an inch, put wood blocks under it. Install the mobility kit, drive it off the skid using a wood ramp.

Or you can do what I've done for many A3's, lift it with a prybar, put quantity six 1/2" EMT rollers under it. Start rolling it off the skid, Once you have 12 inches of it off the skid, put blocks under that end. Pull the skid out with the machine on rollers until there's only 6 inches left on the skid, put blocks under that end. Pull the skid all the way out. Using a pry bar reduce the height of the blocks an inch each in succession until it's flat on the floor.

Do not bother trying to lift the machine, something stupid will happen to you or the machine.

Have a look at this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6NdUNM5QWA

If you have any questions PM me...................Rod.

[Julie Moriarty]

Thanks, Rod. No problem with the EMT, got plenty left over from piping the garage. I've used that method many times at work but hadn't thought of using it with the JP. Guess my head was too deep in wood dust.

I've seen that video, so many times I'm embarrassed to say. :o Harry is like family now. :rolleyes:

[Rod Sheridan]

Harry is also a great guy in person, I get to spend the first week of September with him.........Rod.

[Albert Lee]

Julie, there is absolutely no need to lift the J/P at all.

There are 2 methods of doing this

1) using a pallet jack and the 2 lifting bolt holes in the J/P for the other fork. Then drive it down a wood ramp onto the floor.

2) put a pry bar underneath it, lift it an inch, put wood blocks under it. Install the mobility kit, drive it off the skid using a wood ramp.

Or you can do what I've done for many A3's, lift it with a prybar, put quantity six 1/2" EMT rollers under it. Start rolling it off the skid, Once you have 12 inches of it off the skid, put blocks under that end. Pull the skid out with the machine on rollers until there's only 6 inches left on the skid, put blocks under that end. Pull the skid all the way out. Using a pry bar reduce the height of the blocks an inch each in succession until it's flat on the floor.

Do not bother trying to lift the machine, something stupid will happen to you or the machine.

Have a look at this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6NdUNM5QWA

If you have any questions PM me...................Rod.

I tried using 1) to drive my AD951 down with a wooden ramp... with 2 bolts resting on one of the fork, but somehow it didnt work, while I was scratching my head on how to move it off the pallet(the monster weighs more than 2000lbs!) I realised the AD951 is so wide that I can fit both of my pallet mover's fork underneath it. problem solved.

[Martin Wasner]

Q: Why do you need to spend $5K on a planer?



My wife likes asking silly questions like this once in a while. A little different for me, but I don't even bother telling her when I buy anything anymore.

[Greg Parrish]

Wonder if one of the narrow fork pallet jacks would fit under the A3-31?

[Jacob Mac]

392205

Here's a helpful diagram.

Also, wouldn't hurt to check out the Minimax.

[Julie Moriarty]

Also, wouldn't hurt to check out the Minimax.
I only took a look at it casually. Prices I saw seemed to be about the same but that was with the Tersa knives, not the Xilent cutterblock. I'm pretty set on the spiral cutterblock.

[Dan Friedrichs]

I only took a look at it casually. Prices I saw seemed to be about the same but that was with the Tersa knives, not the Xilent cutterblock. I'm pretty set on the spiral cutterblock.

The "SilentPower" spiral is REALLY nice.

If you were impressed with the finish coming out of the DW735, you will be even more impressed with this.

[Brian Holcombe]

I’m very happy with Tersa, beautiful finish off the planer and change knives in a minute. I’m not that into spiral cutters, having seen the results of them for years with a little wear on them and comparing to Tersa. I use HSS and M+ knives so far, will probably buy carbide too so to have them for the harder stuff. It produces enviable finishes on everything from cedar to tear out prone woods and grain reversals.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Brian, I've never seen the Tersa system in person, but the videos look very cool. I can certainly see the argument for speed of change (vs flipping dozens of insert cutters). But is there something about the Tersa knife that cuts differently than a straight knife (how does it avoid tear-out)?

[Julie Moriarty]

The "SilentPower" spiral is REALLY nice.

If you were impressed with the finish coming out of the DW735, you will be even more impressed with this.

Dan, if what I saw in this video accurately reflects the kind of finish the Silent Power cutterblock produces, I think I'll be more than happy. I've worked with a lot of figured maple but never have I been able to produce this kind of depth in the chatoyance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyHi5d5aAEw

I realize he fed the maple very slowly but it's still impressive.

[Martin Wasner]

I don't know how or why the Tersa knife does so well compared to a regular straight knife, but it does. So much so, that I'm going to put them in the moulder instead of insert heads. I don't know what the price difference is.

The insert heads leave a good cut, but it's REALLY easy to not do a good job reinstalling the inserts. Everything needs to be cleaned properly and torqued properly to get things to seat properly. I think they make a lot more sense in smaller heads and in a hobbyist shop. I can throw away a lot of wood for the cost of changing inserts a 24" head, or I can swap Tersa knives in few minutes is my justification.

I wish I had a Tersa head in just about everything.

[Brian W Evans]

I’m very happy with Tersa, beautiful finish off the planer and change knives in a minute. I’m not that into spiral cutters, having seen the results of them for years with a little wear on them and comparing to Tersa. I use HSS and M+ knives so far, will probably buy carbide too so to have them for the harder stuff. It produces enviable finishes on everything from cedar to tear out prone woods and grain reversals.

This is my experience as well. I used to have a Byrd head in a jointer, but I prefer the Tersa in my J/P. I also used to have a DW735. I don't think the Tersa does quite as well as sharp knives in a DW735, but pretty close.

[Julie Moriarty]

Outside of quick change and self adjusting, how does Tersa differ from straight knives?

[Mel Fulks]

They are available in several steels. Like most they refrain from actually telling you the what the grade actually is. But the one that is 18 percent tungsten is T1 , a good grade that was for years unavailable after being withdrawn from sale for war
effort.

[Jim Becker]

Outside of quick change and self adjusting, how does Tersa differ from straight knives?
They tend to be sharper and it's bone-head simple to shift one or more slightly laterally to deal with a nick from material. Multiple metal formulations also provide some flexibility, especially when combined with how fast it is to change them. They are also two-sided, meaning each knife can be flipped over...twice the life. That said, they are not re-sharpenable to any degree compared to traditional straight knives.

Spiral has the advantage of quieter operation and is particularly good at dealing with very gnarly material.

Both are good systems. I'm very happy with my Tersa knifes on my MiniMax J/P and have been since I bought it in about 2003-4...I forget the actual date.

[Charles P. Wright]

I only took a look at it casually. Prices I saw seemed to be about the same but that was with the Tersa knives, not the Xilent cutterblock. I'm pretty set on the spiral cutterblock.
You should get in touch with Sam Blasco. When I inquired about a spiral head last year, he said he could do it for the same price as a Tersa. I did go with the Tersa based on his recommendation of getting a smoother finish than any segmented spiral head.

[Julie Moriarty]

The first thing I hated about the DW735 was how crazy loud it was. Much louder than the Delta it replaced. You'd think that working on construction sites would have acclimated me to noise but from the earliest days I used ear plugs. I remember being in my mid-30s and going in for a union-recommended hearing test. After the test, the tech told me I had amazing hearing for someone working so long in construction. My eyes may be going bad but my hearing is still good because I've never tolerate being pummeled by loud noises. It was so much easier to just put in ear plugs. I'll put up with time-consuming insert changes if it gets me some quiet. :cool:

[Julie Moriarty]

You should get in touch with Sam Blasco. When I inquired about a spiral head last year, he said he could do it for the same price as a Tersa.
Thanks, Charles. I'll do that. The Felder rep has gone silent.

[Greg Parrish]

Thanks, Charles. I'll do that. The Felder rep has gone silent.

Call the one I shared. He emailed me this morning about my order, on a Saturday.


Tim Derr


Sales Representative





FELDER GROUP USA


2 Lukens Drive, Suite 300 (https://sawmillcreek.org/x-apple-data-detectors://3/1)


New Castle DE 19720 (https://sawmillcreek.org/x-apple-data-detectors://3/1)


https://sawmillcreek.org/blob:https://sawmillcreek.org/3bf574a2-a0dd-4959-b301-fa1571db8514
+1 866-792-5288 ext. 225 (tel:+1%20866-792-5288;225)


t.derr@felder-group.com (t.derr@felder-group.com)


www.felder-group.com/us-us (http://www.felder-group.com/us-us/)








For a minimax, there is a dealer down the road from you in Bonita springs advertising the lineup online here. About same price as the hammer with silent head sale price. If nothing else maybe it gives an idea on pricing.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-MiniMax-FS30-Classic-12-Jointer-Planer-SALE/331308529750?hash=item4d2386f856:g:qDMAAOSwkVxa~qs C

i don’t know this dealer so do your due diligence of course.
24577 Redfish Street; Bonita Springs FL 34134 (https://m.facebook.com/profile.php?id=280784658607041&refid=17)
Website: http://www.reardonmachinery.com


Ebay Site: http://stores.ebay.com/ReardonsWoodworkingMachinery
Fax Number: 239-498-1809 (tel:239-498-1809)
Office Number: 239-947-0348 (tel:239-947-0348)
Cell Phone: 239-250-1528 (tel:239-250-1528)

[Dave Cav]

All of the woodworking machinery reps are probably crazy busy with IWF right now, but I have had excellent luck with Sam Blasco at MiniMax. I spent a lot of time with him last year in Las Vegas when I bought my MM20 Bandsaw.

[Jim Becker]

Sam's contact information:

Sam Blasco
sam.blasco@scmgroup.com (sblasco@scmgroup.com)
512-931-1962 (tel:512-931-1962) (shop)
512-796-3036 (tel:512-796-3036) (mobile)
866-216-2166 (main office/parts/tech services)
www.minimax-usa.com (http://www.minimax-usa.com/)

[Julie Moriarty]

I was grocery shopping today. When I went to the deli for some reason I wondered what the price per pound of the JP would be. Rough calculations came up with $7/lb. I looked at the prices of meats and cheeses in front of me and I realized that JP is a pretty good deal.

[Warren Lake]

The demo shows what they are comparing this head to machining done on the other side with zero info about how it was done. If you point is to show something is better then show it dont leave out five or six details that all have an affect on cut quality. Use the same side of the board in the same direction and same feed rate never mind the other stuff missing.

[Jacob Mac]

I bought a JP from Sam Blasco and a bandsaw from Reardon. Reardon was orders of magnitudes more responsive than Sam. But nether one of which was helpful, or all that necessary. If you have a problem, neither Sam nor Reardon will help. They will just tell you to call Minimax. So I would put little stock in who you buy a Minimax product from.

[Cliff Polubinsky]

Julie,

I had the Hammer mobile base on my A3 31. If you only want to roll it forward and back it's fine. But if you want to reposition it to somewhere else in the shop it's not optimal. Another option for the mobile base is to get the Shopfox D2508A mobile base and a pair of Steelex D4173 swivel casters to replace the non-swivel casters on the base. You'll have to drill some new holes in the caster mounting plate to move the new swivel casters out enough to allow full movement. With this combination you can move the Hammer in any direction.

And seriously consider the Silent Power head. It handles gnarly grain so well you can usually get away with running against the grain if needed.

Cliff

[Julie Moriarty]

I had the Hammer mobile base on my A3 31. If you only want to roll it forward and back it's fine. But if you want to reposition it to somewhere else in the shop it's not optimal.
With the two portable planers I've owned, both were bolted to the top of a mobile cabinet. There has never been a time I've been able to use my planer without rolling it out into the room. The only time I can foresee not needing to roll the JP out would to joint a short board. An easily maneuverable mobile base is a must for my small shop. Thanks for the suggestion.

I'm hoping to hear from the Felder rep today. I'd like to finalize this decision. Working without a planer for the first time in ~20 years is tying my hands.

[Julie Moriarty]

Submitted the purchase authorization form... Might be joining the Felder family soon.

[Julie Moriarty]

Locked in the last A3 31 available until October. Whew!

I ordered the DC fittings necessary to fix up the ductwork so it's ready for the JP. Also ordered 10' of 5" hose and the Portamate 3500. With everything else I've got going here, I'll have to put in some overtime. :cool:

[Dan Friedrichs]

Congrats, Julie! You'll love it. Post pictures once it arrives.

[Cliff Polubinsky]

Julie,

You may already know this but the dust port on the machine needs an adapter to take a 5" hose. Your salesperson should be able to fit you up with one if they haven't already.

Cliff

[Greg Parrish]

Awesome news. Congrats. :)

[Jim Becker]

Congrats, Julie! You're going to enjoy having that great machine!

[Julie Moriarty]

Thanks, guys. Part of me is thinking this will be the first REAL woodworking machine I'll own.

[Brian Holcombe]

Awesome! Congrats!

[Greg Parrish]

Thanks, guys. Part of me is thinking this will be the first REAL woodworking machine I'll own.

Thats how I feel about mine. They can’t get it shipped fast enough. Very excited. LOL

[Alan Lightstone]

With a JP, do you just wrap the slings under the table?

Julie:

I specifically asked the Felder tech about this on Friday at IWF. He said to absolutely not lift up the jointer table from underneath the wings with slings - you would damage the unit. As has been said, there are lifting points. They were suggesting a narrow pallet truck, which I had purchased for just this purpose (among others).

BTW, thoroughly enjoyed going to IWF and lusting after the machines I'll be getting. You'll be thrilled. They are more impressive in person than on the web site. Incredibly solid, well made machines.

[Rod Sheridan]

Thanks, guys. Part of me is thinking this will be the first REAL woodworking machine I'll own.

Yes it is, have fun, welcome to the family........Rod.

[Greg Parrish]

Will the narrow pallet jack jack fit under the machine or does it require the lifting bolts on one side? I can’t figure out if a normal width jack or a narrow one is better. Was going to try to rent one or buy a cheap one.




Julie:

I specifically asked the Felder tech about this on Friday at IWF. He said to absolutely not lift up the jointer table from underneath the wings with slings - you would damage the unit. As has been said, there are lifting points. They were suggesting a narrow pallet truck, which I had purchased for just this purpose (among others).

BTW, thoroughly enjoyed going to IWF and lusting after the machines I'll be getting. You'll be thrilled. They are more impressive in person than on the web site. Incredibly solid, well made machines.

[Derek Cohen]

Locked in the last A3 31 available until October. Whew!

I ordered the DC fittings necessary to fix up the ductwork so it's ready for the JP. Also ordered 10' of 5" hose and the Portamate 3500. With everything else I've got going here, I'll have to put in some overtime. :cool:

Julie, enjoy! I love this machine.

Did you get the digital gauge?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Warren Lake]

narrow are 21" to the outside of the forks, regular is 27". I bought a 27" one and its great to finally have one but its too wide for most machines. it takes some extra fiddling blocking up. Most larger shops have a number of them but I always see the two sizes. 21" is likely a better choice.

[Julie Moriarty]

Will the narrow pallet jack jack fit under the machine or does it require the lifting bolts on one side? I can’t figure out if a normal width jack or a narrow one is better. Was going to try to rent one or buy a cheap one.
From the video on the Felder website, they used one leg of the pallet jack. I've done that before and you just have to make sure it's balanced well and you have a hand on top to prevent tipping.

Julie, enjoy! I love this machine.

Did you get the digital gauge?

Regards from Perth

Derek
I got the digital gauge & handwheel. Everyone raved about it & I was sold. That was the only accessory I bought. I was looking at extensions but they are expensive. I'll wait on those, if the need arises. I also didn't get the mobile kit. The three point system didn't look like it would work as well for me as a four point one would.

I'm wondering about the torque driver for the insert screws and if it's necessary or worth the $85 to buy one. They have a kit but it's pricey. When I see many of their prices at their eShop, I'm thinking I'm shopping for Festool products.

[Greg Parrish]

From the video on the Felder website, they used one leg of the pallet jack. I've done that before and you just have to make sure it's balanced well and you have a hand on top to prevent tipping.

I got the digital gauge & handwheel. Everyone raved about it & I was sold. That was the only accessory I bought. I was looking at extensions but they are expensive. I'll wait on those, if the need arises. I also didn't get the mobile kit. The three point system didn't look like it would work as well for me as a four point one would.

I'm wondering about the torque driver for the insert screws and if it's necessary or worth the $85 to buy one. They have a kit but it's pricey. When I see many of their prices at their eShop, I'm thinking I'm shopping for Festool products.

In the video they are using a set of bolts on outside of machine to ride on one fork while other is underneath. Hard to see but they mention it.

[Jim Becker]

A lot of these machines are great to move with a pallet jack; specifically a narrow version and preferably the "short" leg version, too. My slider can handle a regular width pallet jack, for example, but prefers a short leg version. The one I rented to move the machine was the long fork version and it couldn't go all the way under. (not a problem to move it, but requires more space obviously)

A narrow and short pallet jack might be a good investment for this rather than a mobile base, honestly...feet are always on the floor while using the tool and the pallet jack can be stored under the tool when it's not in use for nearly zero footprint. It can then be used for other tools and loads, too, over time. Northern Tool and Harbor Freight should have good solutions for this.

[Greg Parrish]

A lot of these machines are great to move with a pallet jack; specifically a narrow version and preferably the "short" leg version, too. My slider can handle a regular width pallet jack, for example, but prefers a short leg version. The one I rented to move the machine was the long fork version and it couldn't go all the way under. (not a problem to move it, but requires more space obviously)

A narrow and short pallet jack might be a good investment for this rather than a mobile base, honestly...feet are always on the floor while using the tool and the pallet jack can be stored under the tool when it's not in use for nearly zero footprint. It can then be used for other tools and loads, too, over time. Northern Tool and Harbor Freight should have good solutions for this.

Like this, or does this look too narrow and small?

https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200680712_200680712?cm_mmc=Google-pla&utm_source=Google_PLA&utm_medium=Material%20Handling%20%3E%20Pallets%20% 2B%20Pallet%20Handling&utm_campaign=Strongway&utm_content=55834&cm_mmc=Google-pla&utm_source=google_PLA&utm_campaign=&mkwid=s&pcrid=39129660716&devicetype=t&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4sKrwoiQ3QIVVIezCh0XsQTGEAQYBiAB EgJgQvD_BwE

[Peter Christensen]

I'm wondering about the torque driver for the insert screws and if it's necessary or worth the $85 to buy one. They have a kit but it's pricey.

I can't speak to the machine but in the CNC machine shop that I worked in they had the torque drivers at every bench because when someone would do the tightening without the screw could break / strip the threads in the hole, or the insert could come loose and disintegrate, damaging the holder and often the part. If you don't want to spring for the torque driver buy a very good torque wrench. At least with it you can keep fresh torx driver tips in it. You're spending a lot of money to get the machine. Do you think it is wise to risk damage to the head to save a few dollars?

[David Utterback]

This may be one of the most useful threads ever for justifying future tool purchases to my SO. Great rationale and justifications for any upgrades. Thanks!!!

[Derek Cohen]

...I'm wondering about the torque driver for the insert screws and if it's necessary or worth the $85 to buy one. They have a kit but it's pricey. When I see many of their prices at their eShop, I'm thinking I'm shopping for Festool products.

Julie, I have a dedicated torque wrench. This is taped to the rear of the machine along with spare carbide inserts. The price here is in AUD. It will be cheaper in USD.

https://www.avantiplus.com.au/products/ZEWS0A114/title/t-handle-torque-wrench-5nm?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIx5Hmx5iQ3QIVhA0qCh0Fgw-0EAQYASABEgLAtPD_BwE

https://static.avantiplus.com.au/images/products/ZEWS0A114_large.jpg

The important feature is the 5Nm rating.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Julie Moriarty]

This may be one of the most useful threads ever for justifying future tool purchases to my SO. Great rationale and justifications for any upgrades. Thanks!!!

Don't forget to compare the price per pound advantages! For instance, go to the deli and see what the price per pound is for meat and cheeses. Compare that to the approximate $7/lb cost of the A3 31 and the A3 31 looks like a steal, especially considering whatever you buy at the deli will be gone in a week or so. A tool can last a lifetime. Gotta look at all angles. ;)

[Julie Moriarty]

Julie, I have a dedicated torque wrench. This is taped to the rear of the machine along with spare carbide inserts. The price here is in AUD. It will be cheaper in USD.

The important feature is the 5Nm rating.
Thanks, Derek. I think I've watched just about every Felder video on planers, jointers and combos. When they show knife changes, they just use a standard tool. No mention of torquing. But when they show replacing inserts, they show spraying the area with a cleaner, brushing out all the debris and torquing the insert screw. And Harry mentioned the 5Nm torque. That's when I began to wonder if torquing was necessary. Time to add one more tool to the collection!

[Jim Becker]

Like this, or does this look too narrow and small?

https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200680712_200680712?cm_mmc=Google-pla&utm_source=Google_PLA&utm_medium=Material%20Handling%20%3E%20Pallets%20% 2B%20Pallet%20Handling&utm_campaign=Strongway&utm_content=55834&cm_mmc=Google-pla&utm_source=google_PLA&utm_campaign=&mkwid=s&pcrid=39129660716&devicetype=t&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4sKrwoiQ3QIVVIezCh0XsQTGEAQYBiAB EgJgQvD_BwE

The depth is perfect for this application. It's relatively narrow, but I suspect would be perfect for moving machines like a J/P, properly centered. You're not lifting very far, either.

[Greg Parrish]

The depth is perfect for this application. It's relatively narrow, but I suspect would be perfect for moving machines like a J/P, properly centered. You're not lifting very far, either.

Im thinking it may be too wide to fit under the end gap space and maybe too narrow to center under the machine and the side lifting bolts for proper balance but I can’t find any detailed measurements of the base

[Jim Becker]

I wouldn't use something like this from the end...the tables will get in the way. This would be from the front (or back) and "should" work for most machines. I know it would have no problem fitting under my J/P outside of potentially needing slightly more vertical clearance which is something that could be handled by some "feet" in the corners.

[Greg Parrish]

I wouldn't use something like this from the end...the tables will get in the way. This would be from the front (or back) and "should" work for most machines. I know it would have no problem fitting under my J/P outside of potentially needing slightly more vertical clearance which is something that could be handled by some "feet" in the corners.

Hmmmm..... so maybe this is a better route than the mobility kit I already ordered. Would just need to mount machines on riser blocks, like a 4x4 or 3x3 depending on spacing required by pallet jack. Something to ponder even though I was initially looking just for a way to get the machine off the pallet.

[Julie Moriarty]

Greg, if I find I need a pallet jack to get the machine off, you can rent them for cheap. The rental place near me has them at $17 for 4 hours, $25 for the day.

[Bill Dufour]

If you are changing inserts every day get a feel for the correct torque. But if you do it once a year buy the torque wrench. A torque wrench can be used on every machine the torque driver only for one torque. But will a torque wrench be easy to use and read on the stuff you need to adjust.
I do not think torque sticks are that accurate in such small sizes.
Bill D.

A torque screwdriver is what you need. Calibrating is an easy physics exercise.

Even Hoe Depot has one!

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-1-4-in-Hex-Inch-Torque-Screw-Driver-H4DTRQ/204772217

[Peter Christensen]

Another reason to use a torque wrench over the torque screwdriver is it is a lot easier to apply the 5Nm (44 inch pounds) when you are older and are faced with tightening dozens of screws. Being that Julie was a wire puller for many years she may have great grip strength but it could also mean her wrists are shot too.

As to having a feel for the correct torque we tried a little experiment when I was an aircraft mechanic. We got half a dozen experienced mechanics to tighten 10 nuts (1/4") with a box end wrench and then verified the torque with a calibrated torque wrench. None were able to tighten all the nuts within the torque range and most were over tightened. If the tightening is important it should be done with a torque wrench.

[Larry Frank]

Get a good torque wrench as there are too many that are not very accurate. When I was working, we had to calibrate the torque wrenches every few months and maintain the records. We threw out a lot of bad ones but many had been abused.

[Julie Moriarty]

Another reason to use a torque wrench over the torque screwdriver is it is a lot easier to apply the 5Nm (44 inch pounds) when you are older and are faced with tightening dozens of screws. Being that Julie was a wire puller for many years she may have great grip strength but it could also mean her wrists are shot too.

Turning in those little screws on switches and receptacles and twisting wires together is worse on the wrists than pulling wire or bending conduit. But you're right about the screwdriver type torque driver like Felder makes. What I'd prefer is the T handle type. Felder videos show T handle drivers for the straight knife changes but not for their torque driver. Amazon has T handle torque drivers for bikes. No idea of the quality.

I've got a 1/2" torque ratchet but that might be a bit overkill, and a little unwieldy too. :rolleyes:

[Greg Parrish]

I’ve got small and medium Matco torque wrenches. The small one is rated in inch pounds with corresponding equivalent Nm markings and the medium one runs from 10 to 80 (or 100) foot pounds. I’m thinking the small one will work with the correct inch pound rating.

[Julie Moriarty]

After looking at all the options for a torque driver I ordered the Felder. From what I saw online, prices for torque drivers ranged from ~$15 to over $200, so obviously there's a big difference in what's available. You get what you pay for. Most of the more expensive versions had screwdriver handles. Most of the T handles were geared for bicycle maintenance. No idea about quality, accuracy or durability. By ordering from Felder, there's no guesswork involved.

On another note, after I submitted the authorization form and placed the deposit, I was told by the Felder rep, "You will get further Details from my office ladies about Balance, Delivery and all." That's where it was left Monday. As Tom Petty said, "The waiting is the hardest part..."

[Julie Moriarty]

Just listed the DW735, including table extensions and Wixey WR510 digital readout. Asking $500. Does that price sound reasonable?

[Brian Nguyen]

Julie,
I sold the same DW735 setup for that price within a day. You should be able to do the same.

[Prashun Patel]

Very. Great machine, and the accessories make it very reasonable.

[Greg Parrish]

Just listed the DW735, including table extensions and Wixey WR510 digital readout. Asking $500. Does that price sound reasonable?

Just sold mine today. Sold within 1 day of listing. Sent you a PM with price info that may help or may be depressing.

On a side note, I got a picture of my A3-31 all crated up and awaiting shipping. Inquired about status and the sales rep walked down and found it and sent me a picture. Excellent service.

[Julie Moriarty]

I just tallied up the total cost of the JP plus everything else I anticipate needing. The list includes the JP, torque screwdriver, Super Glide & Metal Glanz from Felder, ductwork fittings from Kencraft, 5” self-cleaning blast gate from Lee Valley, 5” x 10’ flex hose and Portamate 3500 mobile base from Amazon. Total price - $5,385.73, less whatever I'll get for the 735. No doubt, by a long shot, the most I’ve ever spent on a single tool. Hope there will be no regrets...

[Jon Nuckles]

But it joints AND planes, so it is really two tools at only $2692.87 each!

[Matt Mattingley]

I just tallied up the total cost of the JP plus everything else I anticipate needing. The list includes the JP, torque screwdriver, Super Glide & Metal Glanz from Felder, ductwork fittings from Kencraft, 5” self-cleaning blast gate from Lee Valley, 5” x 10’ flex hose and Portamate 3500 mobile base from Amazon. Total price - $5,385.73, less whatever I'll get for the 735. No doubt, by a long shot, the most I’ve ever spent on a single tool. Hope there will be no regrets...
Julie, did you get the silent cutter head? I’m guessing you did with the torques screwdriver.

I went through the exact same thing as you are about seven years ago when I made my decision. I had the same Dewalt. (I only have a small shop)I made up my own mobile base. I made up all my own couplers using 4 inch ABS couplings. The OD of ABS is 5 inches. (I use 5 inch blast gates) on one side of the ABS coupling I turned out some of the material on the inside. This makes for a quick connect to the 5 inch blast gate and the A3–31 dust port. Two dollars.

By the way, I’ve never regretted my decision.

[Julie Moriarty]

But it joints AND planes, so it is really two tools at only $2692.87 each!
One more way to justify a major tool purchase. ;)


Julie, did you get the silent cutter head? I’m guessing you did with the torques screwdriver.

I went through the exact same thing as you are about seven years ago when I made my decision. I had the same Dewalt. (I only have a small shop)I made up my own mobile base. I made up all my own couplers using 4 inch ABS couplings. The OD of ABS is 5 inches. (I use 5 inch blast gates) on one side of the ABS coupling I turned out some of the material on the inside. This makes for a quick connect to the 5 inch blast gate and the A3–31 dust port. Two dollars.

By the way, I’ve never regretted my decision.
Yes, Silent Power cutterhead. Though the adder costs more than the 735. For me, the reduced sound level and the cut quality is worth it.

Thanks for the tip on the ABS coupling, Matt. And for the idea of turning it to the exact size. My plan is to duplicate what I have for the other machines - DC - solid metal duct - blast gate - flex hose - machine. The 5" hose came yesterday. The ID of the flex measures 4.75". The JP connection is 120mm or 4.72". Is that ID or OD? But the measurements seem so close I should be able to figure something out but that ABS coupling may be that "something else".

The 5" flex will be dedicated to the JP. The only time it would be disconnected is if I rearranged the shop tools. Right now, I don't see that happening.

No bites yet on the 735 but I only have it listed locally. But last night I suggested it might make a nice birthday/Christmas for my SO's son. He's an apprentice carpenter.

[Rod Sheridan]

Julie, 120mm is the outside diameter of the flange.

I use the Felder right angle connector for both my machines, works best in my situation. I have the ducting overhead, that way in planer mode it goes up, out of the way.......Rod.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Julie

Something to keep you going while you wait for your machine to arrive :)

These photos were taken during a recent build (bow-fronted apothecary chest). There were 24 drawers, and what I appreciated that the A3-31 could do, is to joint and thickness short sections (the drawer sides) without any sniping. Actually, I don't believe hat I have ever experienced sniping on this machine. Working with such short pieces enabled the wood to be maximised, that is, minimal thickness was lost.

The hose is 5" ....

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ApothecaryChestWeekend7_html_729e8f63.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ApothecaryChestWeekend7_html_50c27808.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Greg Parrish]

Whoop, whoop. Getting me excited too. LOL

what fitting would I need to attach a 5” hose to the machine and the other end to my 6” PVC duct? (Or the Lee valley metal self cleaning 6” gate).

[Julie Moriarty]

Julie, 120mm is the outside diameter of the flange.
That means the OD of the JP flange is the same as the ID of the flex. Seems all I need is a hose clamp. Something tells me though that it's not going to be that easy. Metric and Imperial never seem to get along.

[Bryan Lisowski]

Julie, I would think you would want something else besides just a hose clamp. You may want to do something like the rockler dust right handle thing and a connector to the size of the port. I would think it would make moving the hose easier from jointer to planer mode easier. I think Guy at Guy's Woodworking did a video similar for his jet J/P.

[Matt Mattingley]

Julie, Here are my ABS fittings and mobile kit. Yes, 120 MM equals 4.725”. The ID of a 4 inch ABS Coupler is 4.500” and the OD of a coupler is 5.00”. So I turned 0.225 out of the inside of one side of the Coupler. At the machine I added a small piece of 4 inch ABS and a 90° elbow. The 5 inch hose is just clamped to the outer flange of the 90°.
392552392553392554392555392556

If and when this piece is in the cards for you, it is a pretty good read out. I originally went with the imperial one, but I wasn’t happy with how it worked. The acme thread for the planer table is a metric pitch of 2MM per rotation. I returned it for the metric one.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H7NoR_JTLkw

https://youtu.be/H7NoR_JTLkw

[Greg Parrish]

Crud. My brain doesn’t work in metric. Ugh. So the imperial scale isn’t going to be as functional I guess

[Rod Sheridan]

That means the OD of the JP flange is the same as the ID of the flex. Seems all I need is a hose clamp. Something tells me though that it's not going to be that easy. Metric and Imperial never seem to get along.

I use this Felder part

http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/Extraction/Quick-Connectors/Bow-quick-connector.html

Regards, Rod.

[Clint Baxter]

I used a Fernco connector, https://sawmillcreek.org/blob:https://sawmillcreek.org/7d64a103-f49d-4163-b60d-880825dee19d, to connector the dust collection hood to an Oneida 5” Quick-Connect adapter, https://www.oneida-air.com/inventoryD.asp?item_no=SCOLLECT50&CatId={6CA3B980-BD80-4A76-B08A-A0E3C6E64D19}. I typically pull the hose off to flip the hood and then just plug it back in. Has worked really well for me.

Should be be able to find the correct size Fernco at a plumbing supply, if not at one of the big box stores.

Clint

[Jim Becker]

That means the OD of the JP flange is the same as the ID of the flex. Seems all I need is a hose clamp. Something tells me though that it's not going to be that easy. Metric and Imperial never seem to get along.
Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I thought you mentioned a 4" hose up above and I'm lazy. :) So I'll make a general statement that covers the bases. You can squeeze a 4" hose on a 100mm port like I have on the MM16 bandsaw, but not onto a 120mm port. A 5" hose can be adapted using either the Felder component or a Fernco rubber sewer pipe connector with the connector fitting "over" the machine port and the 5" hose fitting "over" the Fernco connector with a hose clamp to keep it in place. That's how my J/P is setup.

And Gregg, this is how I'm setup in my shop. I have a 6" drop to the J/P (metal, however) and it reduces to 5" after the blast gate to accommodate the hose to the machine as noted in the previous paragraph.

[Julie Moriarty]

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I thought you mentioned a 4" hose up above...
Right now there is a 6" inlet on the cyclone that I split into 4" either way. I ordered fittings to put a 6x6x6 Y at the cyclone, one will go up to the ceiling, the other will drop down to the JP then reduce to a 5", then to a blast gate then to flex then to the JP. That 5" flex has a 4.75" ID. The blast gate is coming tomorrow so I'll see how that works with the flex. The duct fittings are supposed to be here Tuesday.

When this is all done, every machine in the garage will have a dedicated feed to the DC. No more moving hoses around. :D

[Jim Becker]

Sounds like a plan! (he says from your wonderful state of Florida where he's checking up on his 88 year old mom-child :D )

[Greg Parrish]

My machine is getting here Tuesday afternoon so I’m going to just wait to see what’s what when I get it. I have 6” and 4” hose on hand, but no 5”. I used a fernco adapter to connect my Oneidas 7” inlet to my 6” pipe. May be able to so something similar on the JP. Will survey and adapt it over to fit my existing system somehow though. No worries about that.

[Jim Becker]

If you can go 6" to the machine and just adapt there...no harm and even better performance, although 5" works great.

[Greg Parrish]

If you can go 6" to the machine and just adapt there...no harm and even better performance, although 5" works great.

Thats what I’m thinking but want to make sure I can adapt in a rigid enough way and also that the 6” hose isn’t too cumbersome since it has to move. But, this is my preference assuming I can find or make a solid adapter at the machine.

[Matt Mattingley]

If you can go 6" to the machine and just adapt there...no harm and even better performance, although 5" works great.
Can’t too much performance be problematic?? I find it is. Can you explain? I stand strong behind internal air pipe speed should exceed 65 mph to keep pipes clean.
I use a 5 inch blast gate, 5 inch hose and my CFM is too high as it sucks the toggle baffle to an inbetween position. I actually have to close my blast gate to about 50% to get efficient suction. See pic.
392570
My DC has 20 inches of water column and 1400 CFM through a 5 inch hose.(about 1925 CFM through 6”). If I remember correctly the A3-31 only needs about 400 CFM or the baffle problem occurs. I did read somewhere once that somebody came up with a solution using neodymium magnets. If anybody has that link I would be interested in another read. My dust collector is a homemade Job using mostly Bill Pentz design. I think I could probably pull the proper efficiency through a 3 inch hose.
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?220526-Bill-Pentz-cyclone-build&highlight=

Jim, what do you have CFM and water column to your machines? What are your thoughts on water column???

[Julie Moriarty]

My machine is getting here Tuesday afternoon...
Wish I could at least complete the sale. Wave $5K in front of any salesperson and watch that money vanish from your hands. Not with my Felder rep. I sent the authorization form and deposit on 8/27. Yesterday I had to remind him I'm still waiting to complete the sale. One of the ladies from his office emails me with some info. I write back with a simple question. Still waiting to hear back. If it's this hard to buy something, what will it be like after the sale? I'm having concerns...

[Julie Moriarty]

Sounds like a plan! (he says from your wonderful state of Florida where he's checking up on his 88 year old mom-child :D )

Hope she's doing well, Jim

[Julie Moriarty]

Julie, 120mm is the outside diameter of the flange.
I just got the 5" self-cleaning blast gate from Lee Valley. The OD on the flange is 4.75", the same size as the ID of the 5" flex hose. So as it stands right now, it doesn't look like I'll need any weird transition from the JP to the blast gate. Since I'm not a tinner, I don't know the ID of 5" rigid duct offhand but I do know with the duct I've already installed, the 4" LV blast gates worked fine with 4" rigid duct. I'll know for sure on Wednesday.

[Jim Becker]

Jim, what do you have CFM and water column to your machines? What are your thoughts on water column???

I have no way of knowing that information and if you're using the numbers from your system's manufacturer for those you mention, unless they have fan curves to back it up, those numbers are not likely real. That said, getting 1400 CFM through a 5" duct is also a pretty incredible thing... ;) 600-800 with a really good system...might make more sense. You can only fit so much air in there!

[Matt Mattingley]

I have no way of knowing that information and if you're using the numbers from your system's manufacturer for those you mention, unless they have fan curves to back it up, those numbers are not likely real. That said, getting 1400 CFM through a 5" duct is also a pretty incredible thing... ;) 600-800 with a really good system...might make more sense. You can only fit so much air in there!

LOL, I am the manufacture.

This is though a 5” blast gate and 12’ of 5” flex. The ID of tested tube was 10.5”. Tell me what you come up with with 2200ft/min. To CFM.

https://youtu.be/SB9Bt23iYBY

[Chris Parks]

Thanks, guys. Part of me is thinking this will be the first REAL woodworking machine I'll own.

The mission now is to buy a slider, you will never regret it.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Wish I could at least complete the sale. Wave $5K in front of any salesperson and watch that money vanish from your hands. Not with my Felder rep. I sent the authorization form and deposit on 8/27. Yesterday I had to remind him I'm still waiting to complete the sale. One of the ladies from his office emails me with some info. I write back with a simple question. Still waiting to hear back. If it's this hard to buy something, what will it be like after the sale? I'm having concerns...

Don't worry. This is just the Austrian way of doing business. There is no "customer is always right" mentality.

[Larry Frank]

What you can get through any system is dependent on many factors. The system is one thing but the duct sizes and where in your duct work you are using are also critical.

I built the following recently and it has 4" flex coming off a 6" duct. The plastic pipe on the end is 4" DWV. I checked the flow and was getting just under 1000 cfm at about 8.5" water. I am using this to pick up dust while doing some carving with an angle grinder. I have no doubt that if I did the same with a 5" flex hose and pipe I would be in the +1300 cfm range.

392594

It would be interesting to see a fan curve for Matt's cyclone. I re-read his build thread and an incredible job. However, I really do not trust the fan anemometer and a hot wire anemometer measuring multiple points across a duct would be better and more credible. However, I see no reason to not believe Matt's number of 1400 cfm given his dust collector.

[Rod Sheridan]

Wish I could at least complete the sale. Wave $5K in front of any salesperson and watch that money vanish from your hands. Not with my Felder rep. I sent the authorization form and deposit on 8/27. Yesterday I had to remind him I'm still waiting to complete the sale. One of the ladies from his office emails me with some info. I write back with a simple question. Still waiting to hear back. If it's this hard to buy something, what will it be like after the sale? I'm having concerns...

Quit worrying Julie, it's going to be just fine.

It's unusual for hobby people to buy machinery via the normal commercial system ( purchase orders). Felder's model is based upon commercial customers ordering machinery, sight unseen and receiving a delivery date.

It changes the dynamic from one where a company grabs your money immediately, to one where it gets processed at the normal pace. Also everyone has been busy at IWF, or are back at work trying to wade through the stack of orders generated at IWF.......Rod.

[Julie Moriarty]

Don't worry. This is just the Austrian way of doing business. There is no "customer is always right" mentality.
So this is an Austrian thing? Remind me not to do business with Austrians again.


Quit worrying Julie, it's going to be just fine.

It's unusual for hobby people to buy machinery via the normal commercial system ( purchase orders). Felder's model is based upon commercial customers ordering machinery, sight unseen and receiving a delivery date.

It changes the dynamic from one where a company grabs your money immediately, to one where it gets processed at the normal pace. Also everyone has been busy at IWF, or are back at work trying to wade through the stack of orders generated at IWF.......Rod.
This whole Felder buying experience has been like pulling teeth. And the verbiage of the deposit and purchase contracts offers no protection for the consumer while providing full protection for Felder. My experience has been companies that go to these extremes to protect the company do so because they don't want to deal with dissatisfied customers after the sale is complete.

Then yesterday I was told if I want to pay with a credit card I have to pay an additional 3%. Nowhere did I see this in the quote I was given. Nowhere did I see this in the non-refundable deposit contract I signed. Only after they have my money do they tell me this. This caused my SO to want to cancel.

Sorry Rod, but I'm just not feeling really good about this experience.

[Tom Dixon]

Is it Legal to Charge Customers a Credit Card Processing Fee?All merchants are allowed to charge their customers a convenience fee for using a credit card if the customer is using a non-customary payment channel. For example, if a business primarily accepts payments in person, a convenience fee may be added if their customer uses a mail or telephone order.
The practice of always charging customers a fee for credit card payments, no matter how the transaction takes place, is called a surcharge. These are currently prohibited in 10 states—Colorado, Connecticut, Florida, Kansas, Maine, Massachusetts, New York, Oklahoma, and Texas.


Convenience FeesConvenience fees are a subset of credit card surcharges, and are permitted in all states. However, laws govern when a business can and cannot charge their customers a fee.
Convenience fees, like surcharges, must be clearly displayed at the point of sale. Therefore, if you discover a fee only after the transaction is processed, you can submit a complaint with your credit card network. The network will then follow up with the merchant in question.
Source: https://www.valuepenguin.com/credit-card-surcharges-convenience-fees