Help me identify this hand saw

[Tom Bender]

It is one my father had but it would have been new before 1950 I think. I can only read some of the maker's mark on the plate and some of this may be wrong. I have used * for unreadable letters.

Top line in large print, hard to read ***NNTPTAC

In the middle in small print TRAIN

And in the middle pretty clear WARRANTED

And on the bottom in large print and clear NEW HAVEN CON

[Jim Koepke]

The only tool maker in New Haven Connecticut that comes to mind is Sargent.

http://www.sargenttools.com/About/Our-History/

A picture might help if you can post one.

jtk

[Phil Mueller]

The Winchester Repeating Arms company made hand saws (and a variety of other tools) for a period of time. They were located in New Haven, Conn. Could the large lettering at the top be “Winchester”? The TRAIN might be Trade Mark, which appeared under Winchester. Take a look at the Winchester 1923 pocket catalog posted at blackburntools.com. May not be the year of your saw, but it does show the lettering style...which might match what you have.

[Tom Bender]

Jim and Phil
The catalogs on these sites are great fun to peruse, but it seems there was another saw maker in New Haven. The saw I have is not in good shape. I am planning to have it sharpened and continue to use it.

391429

The etching is not visible enough to show in a photo and unfortunately the logo nut is missing.

[lowell holmes]

That is a great saw project.
I love resurrecting old saws.
I would keep the handle and saw nuts but I would male a new handle and buy shiny
brass saw nuts for it.

[steven c newman]

Disston IMP saw, made for use by a railroad line in the area ( New Haven RR?) for the RR's Maintenance of Way crew.

[Pete Taran]

Except that it doesn't look anything like the IMP. Plus, if it was, you'd see the etch as it was HUGE. Impossible to say who made it from the info provided. The other maker that operated out of New Haven for a while was CE Jennings.

391594

[steven c newman]

391605
IMP saw, by Disston. Was also the saw they would etch to what ever the customer wanted.
391606
Another one...etch says something about Farmer..
391607391608

Whatever the customer wanted.....

[Pete Taran]

So much to unpack here. The top saw you post I agree is an IMP, at least the handle. I have never seen one with anything but a straight backed blade though. The rounded handles are the dead give away it is an IMP (like I said, at least the handle), All saws sold as the IMP were marked as such.

The second saw, has a blade clearly marked as a D8. Looks like the handle has Atkins hardware as Phoenix was their second quality line. A couple of your Frankensaws Steven? Neither look like the saw the OP posted.

[steven c newman]

More than welcome to take the 3 hr drive down here, and see EXACTLY what each saw is....rather than what you seem to see..which is wrong.


Riddle me this...
391663
Despite the etch saying this IS an Atkins Perfection saw....I suppose you will say it is not, right.

391664
A second saw, not to be confused with the other ( plate shape is a dead give away, right?)
Etch does say something about CRAFTSMAN, and something "Special...."
391665
Frankensaws...there are none in my shop. Amazing how someone can see 400 miles, and call someone else an idiot. But, I get the feeling you did just that. next you will claim that you actually made these saws.....Maybe the one I have that is etched for a place in Cleveland.....just a little panel saw....George Worthington....might have been your neighbor?

[Pete Taran]

Steve,

I'm only commenting on what YOU posted. The last two pictures show a D8 blade (nothing to do with a farmer, standard D8 etch) and a handle with Atkins hardware. Again, nothing to do with the saw the OP posted, or remotely related to what you said it was. Seems like our issues are you just like to make stuff up, and then when you get called on it, post other stuff unrelated to the original point. No one called you an idiot but you....

For reference, here are your two pictures. Dont need to drive to your place to see a picture and draw a conclusion!

391666391667

[steven c newman]

Doesn't do a whole lot, as anyone can take any two pictures, and claim they are from the same saw. I have two Pheonix saws in the shop....neither of which is this saw....need your glasses changed?

Kind of strange, that one picture does not match the other....did you rotate one? Otherwise, I am calling BS.

Just afraid of being proved wrong, is all, ain't it...?

[steven c newman]

391688
Maybe a better view of a REAL Atkins saw.
391689

I seem to recall that "Pheonix" was actually just a plain old Warranted Superior medallion....large eagle...not the Pheonix Bird....

Didn't the IMP saw come in two models? Straight back and a skew? 090 and 091. Selective seeing, perhaps?

I do have quite a few D-8s in the shop, including a 20" long, 10 ppi panel saw...with the 8 inside the D. Well acquainted with D-8 saws

An eagle warranted superior....might have been before Disston added the empty keystone.....

[Pete Taran]

Like I said, make stuff up and then change the subject. <yawn>

[steven c newman]

Like I said, make stuff up and then change the subject. <yawn>

Something you are very good at, no doubt

ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...:p



S

[steven c newman]

Ok, I went to the shop, to check out those saws...since someone else is afraid to...

The "D-8" etch?
391733
With the 8 inside of the D.....belongs to this saw....
391734
Disston D8, 20" long panel saw, 10 ppi.

The "Pheonix " saws I did find?
391735
And..
391736
Neither of which has been used in quite awhile.
There IS another saw with a bird....
391737
But, it says Warranted Superior around the Eagle. 5-1/2ppi RIP saw.
I went through all of the saws I have in the shop.....although, there is a Richardson Brother saw upstairs.....with the Maltese Cross logo on the medallion.

My other D-8s have the Disston medallion....as do the Disston No. 7......both of them.

Hope that clarifies what those two side by side photos actually were. Anyone care to show up, and "pull inventory"? More than welcome.

[Pete Taran]

Steven,

Great job! Still don’t understand how any of that supports your claim that Disston etched anything the customer wanted on the IMP saw since none are Imps. Also don’t understand what any of that has to do with the saw the OP has. But don’t let any of that stop you from posting unrelated pictures of saws you own to make a point apparently only you have in mind.

[steven c newman]

Maybe just a wee bit of research on YOUR part...would tell you which saw Disston always custom ordered and etch for customers.....Disston and a few other saw makers would custom etch a saw for a customer as requested...usually to sell through a Hardware Supply Co. EVERY saw maker did this.....anything to improve sales.

Since you seem to have thing thing about being The Only Source Of all things Saw, and need to always get the last word.....I'll let you go and play Guru.....I am frankly very bored talking to a Troll.

[Pete Taran]

Steven,

Thank you for the compliment! My father always taught me that name calling was the last defense of a weak mind. :) Have a wonderful evening!

[steven c newman]

I have had quite enough of this "My way or the highway BS. Already scared the OP away, maybe IF you EVER take the time to actually READ things....instead of trying to be the next Bob Smalser....or Joe Bailey..

The question I asked is: Disston made a Model 090 AND a Model 091....one was straight backed, the other was skew. Maybe you are confused at which one was which? IF you weren't in so much of a hurry to attack me all the time, and maybe READ what I actually do write, instead of changing things to suit your view.....discussion? Not a chance when it is a one-way street like you tend to operate on. I go by what I have in my hand, not some fuzzy barely readable blurb from some catalog.....I'll will simply place you on the ignore list....and then take a shower to remove the stench...

[Rob Paul]

Tom, the only saw I know of that has a skew back blade with a pseudo lambs tongue handle is Geo. Bishop's No 115 "Cincinnati Saw Co".
Saw Manufacturers frequently provided saws to Hardware companies, with blades etched for the Customer's business. Perhaps your saw is a Bishop saw made specially for a New Haven hardware store ?
see https://geobishopsaws.blogspot.com/2017/01/no115-cincinnati-saw-company.html?view=flipcard (https://geobishopsaws.blogspot.com/2017/01/no115-cincinnati-saw-company.html?view=flipcard)

[Joe Bailey]

Newman

Couldn't help but notice this post of yours on a competing forum

391790

Your answer is in Mr. Taran's post #7 above.

[steven c newman]

The "answer" is in Disston's 1918 catalog.....look it up.

[Joe Bailey]

The "answer" is in Disston's 1918 catalog.....look it up.


I don't think you understand; I don't need to look it up, I already knew the answer.

[Phil Mueller]

According to the 1918 catalog, models 085, 087, 090 and 091-IMP, were available for custom names. All were straight back.

[steven c newman]

Model 035 was a skew back...also available for custom names.

[Phil Mueller]

Yes, you are correct. I was more curious about the statement you made earlier
“Didn’t the IMP saw come in two models? Straight back and a skew? 090 and 091.”

[Pete Taran]

Phil,

I don't take the catalog to mean that. Below are 3 pages from the 1914 catalog, which is quite a bit rarer than the 1918 one that everyone cites. In the 1914 catalog, there are 3 pages of special saws etched to order, 14 total. They are reproduced here (apologies to Steven if they are fuzzy):

391807391808391809

The 1911 catalog has no special saws etched to order, and the 1918 catalog has 9 etched to order. From these 3 data points, my take away is that the saws etch to order craze started after 1911, peaked in 1914, and was already fading in 1918.

This is speculation on my part, but based on observation. I believe the saws shown are examples of saws that were special etched and ordered by someone else and added to the catalog as a standard item. The reason I say this is that I have most of them in my collection, or I have handled them in the past. The Black Diamond, Phila Saw Company, The Clipper and The Enterprise are pretty common. You will also notice two other things if you carefully look at the catalog pages. First, each of the saws has a model number. That tells me it was not some one off deal, but rather a regular item. Second, on 9 of the 14, there is a notice that the image on that saw was a registered trade mark of the US Patent Office. If they went to the trouble to register the image with the USPTO, it's unlikely that they would allow just anyone to use it.

I think the most logical explanation is that Disston is saying, "Hey! If you have a cockamamie idea for a saw etch and want us to make it for you, look at all these other cockamamie saw etches we've done in the past."

The next thing you might notice, if you were inclined to, is to look at the bottom of page 141. There you will see the Model #90 with an etch called "Our Saw" It has a straight back and a nib. Directly below that you will notice the infamous "IMP", Model #91. It too has a straight back. I looked in my records and realized I had an IMP saw. Unlike other hazy examples folks might have been recently regaled with, this one leaves little to wonder about what it looked like. You'll notice it's identical to the catalog, as all Disston saws I've seen are:
391810391811

From the catalog and the saw shown, I think that you can conclude that the Number 90 is not, in fact, a skewed back of the IMP. It's a completely different saw, and it didn't have a skew back.

Turning from the IMP saw, for a minute, let's get back to the saw that the OP posted about. There is conjecture that this is a Hardware store etch. I just don't think it is. In every hardware store saw I've ever seen, it's a regular saw model with the etch in the middle of the blade where it should be, and to the right, there is the etch for the Hardware Store. A few examples from my collection:

A Disston #7 with an etch for a hardware dealer in NY, Reed and Auerbacher:

391812

A Disston #9 with an etch for a hardware dealer in Boston, Burrill & Dutton:

391813

A Richardson Saw, with a faint etch for a hardware dealer in Portsmouth, P Wendell & Co:

391814

In every case, there are two etches. It does not seem like the OP's saw fits this description.

[Pete Taran]

Further, there is talk of it being a RailRoad saw. Like Hardware Store saws, the saws made for the RR had a main etch which corresponded to the model number, and to the right, had the RR etch. These are not as common as Hardware Etches, but one I had handy is shown below from the P&R Railway Co:

391815

So what does this leave us with? Seems like the OP's saw is not an IMP, as some speculated. Further, there is no evidence that Disston ever made a saw etched IMP which had a skew blade. It does not seem to fit the accepted practice of a hardware or RR etch.

What is the saw then? Who can say. Perhaps a better example will turn up, or I will run across one in my collection that is in good enough shape to figure it out. I just know what it's not, and that's an IMP.

Yours in Arcane Saw facts,

The Saw Troll

[Phil Mueller]

Pete, thank you for taking the time to post all this information. It would make sense that someone said “can you make this configuration for me”, and Disston thought, if he wants that, someone else may want it as well and gave it a model # and put it in the catalogue. If, after a period of time, few orders came in for it, it was dropped. I also have to believe he was aware of Ford’s assembly line efficiency and worked to minimize the # of configurations and custom offerings, although I am not familiar with how similar car and saw making production processes were or the effect on labor and costs.

Let me me just say that your expertise and extensive collection are not lost on this SMC member. I am, however, a bit in awe that you can see a saw in a vintage catalog, and then actually find it in your vast collection ��!

P.S. never noticed this on the Disstonian site until now...nice work, Pete.
ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS: Information on manufacturing dates comes from Erv Schaffer's book Handsaw Makers of North America, ©1999, Osage Press. Information on manufacturing dates of saw medallions is the research of Pete Taran, and was published in "The Fine Tool Journal". Check out Pete's website (http://www.vintagesaws.com/).

[Stewie Simpson]

It is one my father had but it would have been new before 1950 I think. I can only read some of the maker's mark on the plate and some of this may be wrong. I have used * for unreadable letters.

Top line in large print, hard to read ***NNTPTAC

In the middle in small print TRAIN

And in the middle pretty clear WARRANTED

And on the bottom in large print and clear NEW HAVEN CON

http://www.library.yale.edu/thecitycourse/Data_Tables/Commerce/Companies_New_Haven_1897_by_product_address_and_ho me_addr.xls

http://www.library.yale.edu/thecitycourse/Data_Tables/Commerce/Businesses_New_Haven_1913_1998_by_product_address_ CEO.xls

[Pete Taran]

Rob Writes:


Tom, the only saw I know of that has a skew back blade with a pseudo lambs tongue handle is Geo. Bishop's No 115 "Cincinnati Saw Co".
Saw Manufacturers frequently provided saws to Hardware companies, with blades etched for the Customer's business. Perhaps your saw is a Bishop saw made specially for a New Haven hardware store ?
see https://geobishopsaws.blogspot.com/2017/01/no115-cincinnati-saw-company.html?view=flipcard (https://geobishopsaws.blogspot.com/2017/01/no115-cincinnati-saw-company.html?view=flipcard)

Rob, this is an excellent observation and triggered a random neuron to fire in my head this morning as I was thinking about this saw. I remembered that Erv Schaffer, in his excellent book "Hand Saw Makers of North America" listed all the hardware stores that resold saws from other makers (they are on pages 45-48 for those who have the book). I didn't see any hardware store except for Sargent operating out of New Haven. I'm sure Erv's list is not all inclusive, but considering the volume that would have been required to purchase a run of saws for custom etching, it's not unreasonable to assume that Sargent in fact sold this saw.

Further, below is the entry for Sargent in Erv's book, page 47:

391829

You will notice they sold a wide variety of other maker's saws, to include Disston and others. I looked through my catalogs and didn't see any Atkins or Simonds saws with that pseudo lamb's tongue that you pointed out. I don't have anything for CE Jennings, although I've had a lot of his saws, and don't recall seeing one like the OPs saw.

Then it hit me that the answer could be right under our nose. Direct your attention to page 139, the No 40., third saw from the top:

391830

The saw shown there is identical to the OPs in every way. Placement of the saw nuts, the pseudo lambs tongue and the skewed back. Looking further, this saw does not appear in the 1918 catalog, which is why many probably didn't draw the connection.

I'd like to state that is an educated guess, and not proven fact, but when you consider that the OPs saw has a New Haven etch, and Sargent operated out of New Haven, AND sold Disston saws, AND Disston had an identical saw sold in their catalog called the #40 which looked identical, I don't think it is a stretch to conclude that Disston made that saw for Sargent and it was their Model #40.

As an aside, I would LOVE to get an example of the "The Nabob". I wonder if Nabobs back then were Natteringly Negative? Something new to be on the lookout for.

Regards,

The Saw Troll

[steven c newman]

Here ya go...first come first serve....maybe you can id any of these...from 400 miles away....better hurry, trash day is Tuesday around here.
391881

[Pete Taran]

Steven,

Housekeeping is fun, glad you are ridding yourself of some of your less appreciated gems.

The Saw Troll

[Tom Bender]

Thanks Pete, the 115 and the 121 appear to have the same etch but with the top and bottom lines of text changed. Yesterday I put it in the mail to you for filing so you should have it today or tomorrow. I'll add an order for identification.

[Pete Taran]

I received Tom's saw today in the mail and now can conclusively state that it is indeed a Disston #40 skew back saw. For the haters out there, or those who are skeptical, please consider this "Proof of Life" photo to prove I in fact have Tom's saw:

392035

With that out of the way, some analysis. The etch was very hard to make out, but with some digital enhancement with the right lighting, I offer the following:

392036

On the left hand side you can see the etch from the 1914 catalog and it has been magnified several times. On the right you can see the remnants of the etch of Tom's saw. It should be obvious to most the many similarities. Most prominent is the central star with the circle around it. Also visible is the "Trade" in "Trademark" and the word "Patent". Both match the etching in the catalog exactly in style and location.

While it should be easily discernible that the bottom does indeed say "New Haven", the top I could only make out several letters. It was driving me crazy, I looked at it under different kinds of light, applied oils and dyes. Finally, I got just the right combination and I could make out the last three letters, "IAC". I immediately thought of Pontiac, but the word was way too long. I finally realized that the first letter was a Q. So, a long word, starting with a Q and ending in IAC. I fired up google maps pointed at New Haven, and the answer was right in front of my face:

392037

From Wikipedia, the font of all knowledge: The Quinnipiac—rarely spelled Quinnipiack—is the English name for the Eansketambawg (meaning "original people"; c.f., Ojibwe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anishinaabe_language): Anishinaabeg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anishinaabe) and Blackfoot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackfoot_language): Niitsítapi), a Native American (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Americans_in_the_United_States) nation of the Algonquian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algonquian_peoples) family who inhabited the Wampanoki (i.e., "Dawnland"; c.f., Ojibwe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anishinaabe_language): Waabanaki, Abenaki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abenaki_language): Wabanakiyik) region, including present-day Connect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connecticut)icut.

So, let's review. A saw made by Disston, the #40, presumably for Sargent, a large hardware dealer out of New Haven, CT. An etch which says "Quinnipiac" which is a marsh to the North of New Haven, and also the name of a modern day University.

The one thing that is new, maybe anywhere, is that it appears that for the "Saws Etched to Order" it wasn't like they recreated the entire etch. Rather, they replaced the top name line and the bottom location line to suit the customer. I think that is new information which hopefully now that it is recorded here, can avert future flame wars on the topic.

Some will likely disagree with the assessment, but, for those with a fair mind and an eye toward the facts, it seems pretty open and shut to me.

All the best,

The Saw Troll

[Phil Mueller]

Very cool, Pete. Thanks for sharing. And Tom, thanks to you as well for sending it to Pete so we can all benefit.

[Sanford Imhoff]

This is good stuff. Thank you, Pete.

[Rob Paul]

Interesting that the Bishop 115 saw and the Disston 040 saw are identical in handle, blade, and overall etch designs, with the only difference being minor word changes within the etch and Bishop's "115" being replaced by Disston's "star" in the circle at the etch centre. I wonder who was copying who ? (Also, note that the central star in the etch on Tom's saw is upside down from the Disston illustration)

[Pete Taran]

Rob,

It's hard to imagine that Disston copied Bishop. Considering Disston in 1914 was already a world wide concern and Bishop was a small regional maker. Further, in 1914, Bishop was already circling the drain, going completely kaput in 1919 by merging with Ohlen. It would not surprise me if Bishop contracted with Disston to make that saw for them because Disston could make it cheaper than they could. Further, from the catalog:

Hand filed and set, with beechwood handle, polished edges and 4 brass screws. This saw bears the ‘warranted superior’ medallion rather than the Geo H Bishop greyhound. This denotes it as one of the saws in the more modest price range.

I think the fact that it comes with a warranted superior medallion supports this premise. I'm sure that would be the way that Disston made it and sold it. Digging into it further, I see that Bishop also made a P-26 saw. As most know, Disston bought out the Vulcan Saw Works in 1890, so for Bishop to make one of those saw models, he would have needed the permission of Henry Disston and Sons. When you buy a company, you get all their trademarks as well. No way they just decided to remake that saw in their own image without permission. Permission denotes some sort of cooperation between the two firms.