Saw files

[David Ragan]

Have some expected to be excellent Disston saws from Pete Taran and Mike Allen.

Both guys above have been great--now I need time.

Have some BORG saws to practice saw sharpening

What brand of files do you all get?

Does it make a difference?

I know file need to be >2x height of the tooth, and then something about the arris and gullet

(Have plans to make a vise)

Thanks guys

[Brandon Speaks]

I have not tried many brands but have the Bhaco files ordered in a kit from LV that I have been very happy with. I got the full set so I would have a variety around but will likely reorder individual sizes based on what is getting used the most. I also ordered one of the veritas saw file holders, although I have not tried it yet it seems like it would be helpful for rake and fleam.

I have heard bad things about current production nicholson files in comparison to bhaco but dont have first hand experience.

Those borg saws likely will not be ok to practice on. They generally have impulse hardened teeth that will wither break off or ruin your file. If you want a saw for practice you can get a bent disston or WS for a couple bucks. Honestly though I just learned by diving in on good saws. Its really hard to mess one up. If you dont get it quite right just resharpen. What I have seen though a pretty poorly sharpened saw still cuts much better than a dull one. If you go slow and pay attention to tooth shape its pretty easy though. Some dycam or other layout fluid on the teeth helps to see what you are doing.

[Phil Mueller]

David,
Go back through Pete’s site and read through his tutorial on saw filing in the Library section. Also take a look at his saw maintenance section. I follow Pete’s file size chart in that section. Pete is currently recommending Nicholson, which I have been using for some time now, and to my semi-novice opinion, they work very well.

For more reading, you can go to Blackburn Tools. He sells mostly Bahco. If you ever get to retoothing a saw, he also has full scale templates.

I’ve used both the Bahco and Nicholson. Both do the job.

And as Brandon said, do not practice on BORG saws. They are not meant to be resharpened and will ruin your files. For practice, I hit every garage sale I could find and picked up a number of vintage junkers for $2-3 each. Or you can find “lot sales” of junkers on eBay. Doesn’t matter the condition of the handle, etc. All you really want is a decent vintage saw plate that doesn’t have a lot of rust pits at the tooth line.

Good luck!

[Stewie Simpson]

2-3year ago I purchased 3 full boxes of mexican made nicholson taper files on the recommendation of others.

I still have 2 files short of those 3 boxes today in my workshop.

2 words would reflect my experience with those of mex.files .Utter Crap.

[Phil Mueller]

Stewie, what brand do you recommend?

[Stewie Simpson]

Stewie, what brand do you recommend?

Phil;

NOS WILKSHIRE Taper Files (made in Australia).

NOS NICHOLSON Taper Files (made in USA)

[Brian Hale]

2 words would reflect my experience with those of mex.files .Utter Crap.

I couldn't agree more!

I got so frustrated with junk files that wore out before i finished sharpening 1 saw...... What makes them so bad is the teeth on the tip of the triangle break off/wear out fast so they're no longer cutting in the gullet of the saw teeth, then the file rocks throwing off the angle you're trying to maintain. That's bad enough if you have some experience sharpening a saw but if you're just starting out you'll keep trying to figure out what you're doing wrong.

For the last several years i've been searching for NOS file from several manufacturers, the older the better.

I also agree, don't try to work on those new saws with the hardened teeth, you'll trash a file in just a few strokes.

Brian :)

[Rollie Kelly]

You might email Ron Bontz and ask him what he uses.

[Stewie Simpson]

The Bahco taper files (made in Portugal) share similar early corner edge failure as the mex.nichs.

Unable to provide the forum Link due to SMC forum rules.



followed Paul Sellers’ approach to sharpening. I jointed the saw aggressively because the teeth were pretty uneven in height, then proceeded down the blade using a brand-new Bahco Portugal Slim Taper file (#1 in the image). By the time I was done, it was screeching badly, even though I’d changed up sides of the file halfway down. The saw was sharper, but didn’t seem as sharp as it should be (still had some flats on the teeth), so I took another pass down the saw with another brand new file, this one a Bahco Portugal X-Slim Taper file (#2 in the image). I had to switch to a new edge on the file at 1/3 and 2/3 of the way down the saw, and it barely finished the job. Considering the saw was nearly sharp to begin with, I’m not happy about that. Take a look at the missing teeth on the two file corners. I asked Paul Sellers about this in the comments on one of his recent posts and he graciously answered, suggesting that I might have a saw with unevenly tempered teeth. Is this unusual? I don’t think I’m going to buy any more Bahco files in the future if I can barely get one sharpening out of them. It doesn’t seem much better than what I’ve read about Nicholson Mexico-made files.


https://s3.amazonaws.com/vs-lumberjocks.com/no1oidt.jpg

[Mike Brady]

Availability of saw files it at almost crisis stage. I noted that LN is selling off some China-sourced files and indicating they will not be available in the future; which I interpret as a thumbs down. They formerly carried Grobet, which must have soured.

I ran into Slav, The File Monger, at a MWTCA meet over the weekend. He says he almost never sees saw files anymore, and he scours the new/old stock market. People who currently do a lot of saw filing are not revealing their file sources.

Can anyone comment on Lee Valley's offerings in files? How about from other sources?

[Stewie Simpson]

Mike; you may want to check with Daryl Weir. Fair chance he is still an active member of SMC. https://sawmillcreek.org/member.php?13383-Daryl-Weir

[David Myers]

Second the caution about those Borg saws:

They may be impulse hardened and not amenable to sharpening.

[Phil Mueller]

I’ll just say this, then leave it be. When you don’t want to take the time to obtain NOS, Bahco and Nicholson will get the job done. I just filed two crosscut saws using two edges on one file. They are sharp, cut well, and run straight.

[Bill McNiel]

I have been using Tome Feteira files made in Portugal with satisfaction.

[steven c newman]

Last saw file I bought, I got four saws sharpened with it....I bought a Stanley Saw File..
391208
This will be used on the next saw.
391209
I needed a handle to hold the files, too...
391210
And a $10 saw vise....Wentworth No. 1.
As I can only see teeth to about the 7-8ppi range, file is about the right size.
YMMV

[Mike Brady]

Well said, Stewie. What I can't understand is why makers go to the expense of operating a file producing business and then produce crap? Surely there is still a need for decent files in industry. ---or am I wrong?

[Luke Dupont]

Seconded. I have the same experience. Avoid Nicholson files.


2-3year ago I purchased 3 full boxes of mexican made nicholson taper files on the recommendation of others.

I still have 2 files short of those 3 boxes today in my workshop.

2 words would reflect my experience with those of mex.files .Utter Crap.

[Kees Heiden]

My Bahco files ain’t that bad. I have filed new teeth in new saw plates with them without the kind of edge damage in the pictures above. And sharpening existing teeth doesn’t destroy them that quickly either. I use Bahco needle files for the dovetail saws.

[David Ragan]

What does NOS mean?

Any concern about an arris on the corner to prevent me from screwing up the gullet?

[Stewie Simpson]

David; of a much earlier date of manufacture but still in new/unused condition.

New Old Stock.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/old%20stock%20saw%20taper%20files/DSC_0017_zps4b03c297.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/old%20stock%20saw%20taper%20files/DSC_0017_zps4b03c297.jpg.html)

[Pete Taran]

I couldn’t disagree more about the quality of Nicholson files. I have always used the files I sell to others. I have changed brands many times over the years. Started with Simonds, then Bacho, then Grobet and now Nicholson. If I can’t use them to my satisfaction personally, then I don’t sell them.

I use a Foley filer for the vast majority of my file work. Since it’s mechanical, I often take almost 1/8” inch off per single pass. This is extreme, but if teeth are regularly spaced but poorly shaped, this saves on retoothing. No person could put enough pressure on a file to cause this kind of cutting by hand. In my experience the teeth wear away before the corners fail. I don’t think there is a perfect saw file made. I don’t think there ever was. Changing angles when hand filing puts a lot of pressure on file teeth at the tips. When you have a piece of steel that is hardened to 70 Rockwell, it can’t take a lot of abuse.

Having said all that, expecting a file to last forever is the wrong approach. I use one edge per saw and move on. When it’s done, it’s time for a new edge. I can’t speak for Nicholson quality years ago, but current production works just fine for me. I have been selling Nicholson for about 2 years now. Instead of searching for unobtainium, try what’s avavilable.

[Kees Heiden]

+1

Get used to what is available. NOS isn’t in my area. And use the files like a good user. They can get away with quite some pressure but try to learn to feel how the teeth are doing the work.

[Graham Haydon]

I've been very with Bacho saw files purchased via workshop heaven here in the UK.

[Simon MacGowen]

Instead of searching for unobtainium, try what’s avavilable.

+1

There is another thread about WR chisels where people asked about their quality. Frankly, most hobby woodworkers DON'T need premium chisels ($80 a piece or more) to do decent work. The marketing people, supported by magazines and writers and reviewers, have done a great job about promoting high end chisels. I read one where it says "it is a bargain compared to xxx Japanese chisels." If you have money and want to spend it on some nice tools, go ahead, and you don't need justifications.

How many hobby woodworkers file their own saws? Few people know how to do it or have done it. Those who do it are over worried about the files unless they sharpen saws for a living. I may sharpen my rips a few times a year -- tops == (less for my cross cuts), and each file has three edges. I can reuse each edge at least once or twice if not more and that means I am not spending much on buying saw files.

Simon

[Mike Brady]

To Pete Taran and others: When you refer to Nicholson tapered files are you meaning NOS or Mexico origin? If Pete's comments refer to the Mexican files I find that very encouraging, but my experience with them ( The Nicholsons in the green packaging and made in Mexico) has been mixed. Nicholson also made some Mexico origin files in their old blue/red packaging that were inferior. I'm going to assume that Pete goes through a quantity of files in his business whereas I am maintaining only my own small collection of saws. Anything above 14ppi I am utilizing needle files that are very satisfactory. Perhaps Nicholson has reach a point of quality equilibrium. Their files are sold by almost every Ace Hardware store, a nationwide chain. 6Xslim is their smallest file in stockin the stores; $6-8.

I do find it interesting that Lie-Nielsen is not stocking any saw files as they once did. I reading that to mean that they have not found any to sell that they can stand behind. I would love to know what LN factory saw-smiths are using on their production saws.

[Pete Taran]

The files I’m referring to are the ones currently made in Mexico. New production, not new old stock.

[steven c newman]

I just head to the local Green Borg ( Menard's) and buy a single file...maybe once a year. Saws between 5-1/2 to 7 ppi are about all I can see well enough to sharpen. Might do two or four a year. Not doing sharpening for a living....mainly to get the three rip saws sharp. I get the Stanley brand, $5.98+tax for a single 6" slim taper file. Usually get four sharpenings out of each file. Not a big issue, just want to maintain the saws I use.

Saws 8ppi and up? They get sent out to be sharpened....$0.60 per inch. Eyes I have see double at that level....let someone else do the work. IF I get allowed to go to the shop, I might get to see where Stanley has their files done. Saw set in the shop is a Millers Falls No. 214.....seems to work nice on the bigger teeth...saw vise is just an old Wentworth No. 1.....

[Mike Brady]

Thanks for that info, Pete and Steve.

[Stewie Simpson]

I couldn’t disagree more about the quality of Nicholson files. I have always used the files I sell to others. I have changed brands many times over the years. Started with Simonds, then Bacho, then Grobet and now Nicholson. If I can’t use them to my satisfaction personally, then I don’t sell them.

I use a Foley filer for the vast majority of my file work. Since it’s mechanical, I often take almost 1/8” inch off per single pass. This is extreme, but if teeth are regularly spaced but poorly shaped, this saves on retoothing. No person could put enough pressure on a file to cause this kind of cutting by hand. In my experience the teeth wear away before the corners fail. I don’t think there is a perfect saw file made. I don’t think there ever was. Changing angles when hand filing puts a lot of pressure on file teeth at the tips. When you have a piece of steel that is hardened to 70 Rockwell, it can’t take a lot of abuse.

Having said all that, expecting a file to last forever is the wrong approach. I use one edge per saw and move on. When it’s done, it’s time for a new edge. I can’t speak for Nicholson quality years ago, but current production works just fine for me. I have been selling Nicholson for about 2 years now. Instead of searching for unobtainium, try what’s avavilable.

Here is a truth about a Nicholson saw file now. The saw files made in Mexico have file teeth that consistently break at the corners as soon as you start using them. They didn’t used to do that ever. Now they do it with remarkable consistency. That means that instead of getting several saw sharpenings from one saw file, perhaps ten to fifteen, sometimes you may get only two or three. That then means that the saw file now costs $15-20 in real terms. The reason is that if the corner breaks, the file stops cutting. https://paulsellers.com/2012/04/nicholson-files-and-home-depot-blow-it-again/

https://i0.wp.com/ps-5e0.kxcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/PICT0012.jpg?fit=1024%2C768&ssl=1

https://i0.wp.com/ps-5e0.kxcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/PICT00032.jpg?fit=1024%2C768&ssl=1

[Stewie Simpson]

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=280690&d=1376215210

[Joe Rogers]

Have to register to see the linked information. Don’t understand that limit as one cannot audit the data to determine if joining is desired.
I have heard that the Mexican Nicholson files are improving. The first iterations were soft. Perhaps the process was over swung to increase hardness. As they continue to manufacture files perhaps continued feedback and product returns for warranty adjustment will accelerate the improvements to a correct quality level.
Joe

[Pete Taran]

So Stewart, I guess we will have to disagree. People can believe some random far ago experience from you, who has filed what, dozens of saws in their lifetime, or from me, who uses them everyday, currently, and has filed 10s of thousands of saws in their lifetime. The distinction is just that simple.

When Nicholson moved their production to Mexico, there were issues as you might expect. But they have worked them out. That is the reality on Aug 12, 2018.

[Warren Mickley]

About twenty years ago I was watching a Williamsburg blacksmith file a latch he had forged. Looking to start a conversation I asked how long a file lasted doing that kind of work. Another smith, way in the back called out "depends who's using it."

A good hand filer is able to make a file cut easily without much wear. I think guys should be bragging about how long they use a file, not how quickly they can wear one out.

[Jim Koepke]

A good hand filer is able to make a file cut easily without much wear. I think guys should be bragging about how long they use a file, not how quickly they can wear one out.

This makes me think of an old adage, "nothing can be made to be fool proof as there will just be a quick found supply of more ingenious fools."

jtk

[Pat Barry]

I couldn’t disagree more about the quality of Nicholson files. I have always used the files I sell to others. I have changed brands many times over the years. Started with Simonds, then Bacho, then Grobet and now Nicholson. If I can’t use them to my satisfaction personally, then I don’t sell them.

I use a Foley filer for the vast majority of my file work. Since it’s mechanical, I often take almost 1/8” inch off per single pass. This is extreme, but if teeth are regularly spaced but poorly shaped, this saves on retoothing. No person could put enough pressure on a file to cause this kind of cutting by hand. In my experience the teeth wear away before the corners fail. I don’t think there is a perfect saw file made. I don’t think there ever was. Changing angles when hand filing puts a lot of pressure on file teeth at the tips. When you have a piece of steel that is hardened to 70 Rockwell, it can’t take a lot of abuse.

Having said all that, expecting a file to last forever is the wrong approach. I use one edge per saw and move on. When it’s done, it’s time for a new edge. I can’t speak for Nicholson quality years ago, but current production works just fine for me. I have been selling Nicholson for about 2 years now. Instead of searching for unobtainium, try what’s avavilable.
One edge of a file per saw and then its done? That seems pretty low for an expectation. What is the reason for your result? Do you file both forward and backwards or just forward only? Do you press very hard and take deep cuts? It would seem the corners would always be the fragile point, why don't your corners wear out before the faces, is that because you are more focussed on the tooth surface and not the gullet?

[David Eisenhauer]

With an apology to David R as I do not mean to hijack a thread, but I would be very interested in Warren? Jim? Stewie? anyone? pointing me in the direction of any information on correctly using a file so as to prolong its life and achieve desirable results. Like many, I was raised in a farm/ranch/do-it-yourself environment and was told to "file it down some so it will fit" or "sharpen it with a file" without any other instruction other than "don't drag the file backwards over the cut". My only self-produced opinion towards better file use lately has been to attempt to allow the file to cut under its own power as opposed to bearing down on the file with lots of pressure and I don't even know if that is correct. Any help would be appreciated.

[Kees Heiden]

It's a matter of feeling how the file cuts. A good file has a very distinct feel of cutting. So it is a matter of using just enough pressure to get that feeling.

That, and using even pressure throughout the stroke and using most of the file, not just the middle bit. Also support your work well, so it doesn't vibrate.

[Simon MacGowen]

That, and using even pressure throughout the stroke and using most of the file, not just the middle bit. Also support your work well, so it doesn't vibrate.

That's about it! Stoning would help a lot if the teeth are not uniformly worn.

I self taught myself how to sharpen a saw, and have found the longevity of a file depends on many things in addition to the quality of the file, which is only one factor. Peter Taran may be one edge per saw because he is looking for efficiency, and people pay for his file expenses. I get more filings per edge because speed of completion is less important to me.

I wouldn't be surprised if some people prematurely dull their files and edges by not lifting the files or going light on the return strokes. Other factors like number of teeth, hardness of steel, etc. also affect the wearing of your files. My saw files are either Bacho or Nicholson.

Paul Sellers claims he lengthens the life of a saw sharpness using a diamond hone. I have had no experience with that to form a view on it. But if it does work, it could reduce the wear of any file.

And I enjoy saw filing more than sharpening, because I always sit down when I sharpen a saw.

Simon

[David Ragan]

Stewie, is there a way to view that information w/o the registration?

David E-no worries.

Earlier I mentioned something quasi-technique about the desirability of an arris on a file. One merchant w good reputation sells them, says keep one from messing up the gullets.

After reading all this, I don't know what to think or buy.

Technique is a big factor, of course.

How about a poll-data from files purchased in the last 12 months?

[Tom M King]

With an apology to David R as I do not mean to hijack a thread, but I would be very interested in Warren? Jim? Stewie? anyone? pointing me in the direction of any information on correctly using a file so as to prolong its life and achieve desirable results. Like many, I was raised in a farm/ranch/do-it-yourself environment and was told to "file it down some so it will fit" or "sharpen it with a file" without any other instruction other than "don't drag the file backwards over the cut". My only self-produced opinion towards better file use lately has been to attempt to allow the file to cut under its own power as opposed to bearing down on the file with lots of pressure and I don't even know if that is correct. Any help would be appreciated.

Long smooth strokes, and a vise that holds the saw securely enough so it doesn't chatter. I use the whole file. I only use one hand, and the file is seated in the tooth on the little smooth end first. That gives a split second to make sure I'm putting it in the right place. A light is placed so the last filed tooth shines brightly back at me, as I go to the next tooth. I try not to wait too long to sharpen anything, so when sharpening a hand saw, I almost always only take one stroke, but vary the pressure depending on what it needs. I never back up with a file.

I've never heard of anyone else filing with one hand, but that's the way I learned to file a chainsaw chain, and using two hands always felt awkward to me, so that's just the way I do it. As for how long it takes, I never timed it, but remember before going to lunch one day, not too long ago, I had been cutting the peak Cypress shingles on a roof with an 8-point, and we broke for lunch. I sharpened one side of the saw while the first helper was washing his hands, and cleaning up, and the other side while the other helper washed his before it was my turn.

The first video I saw of a person, mentioned here, that complained about files breaking down, was taking very short strokes. I wasn't smart enough to understand the benefit in that. I buy full length files, so I use the whole file.

If you watch someone file a competition timber cutting saw, you won't see them bearing down really hard, but more like they are caressing the tooth.

I'm sure I don't do anything like as much sharpening as Pete does, but I use handsaws a lot working on old houses because often it's faster to mark something that's most likely out of square, or plumb with a preacher, and cut it with a handsaw. When building new houses, all siding was cut this way.

Only picture I have stored here that applies. The siding looks tight, but you can move any piece in, and out with a fingertip. Even if siding is getting painted, I don't like to use caulking unless it's absolutely necessary, and certainly don't want to use it on bare wood.

edited to add, to answer question about what type of file: I've bought a lot of singles to test, but don't end up keeping up with what's what, so I've lost track, but can't remember ever having any teeth break down. They just get so they won't cut, but sorry, I don't keep up with how long that is either. I do really like the Black Diamonds that came out of my Grandfather's General Store that the doors were just closed on in 1935.

[Tom M King]

I don't know the maker of my vise. I bought it from The Best Things, and Lee had never seen one like it before either. It has no maker name, or mark on it. I found this picture from when it first came, beside a more commonly available type that most people will be familiar with. It'll hold any backsaw (except the miter box one) without needing to move the saw, and only requires one move for hand saws.

https://www.woodtalkonline.com/uploads/monthly_2016_02/viseview2small.jpg.293dc47b3ff02e72f779aa5ba119848 7.jpg

[Stewie Simpson]

Stewie, is there a way to view that information w/o the registration?

David E-no worries.

Earlier I mentioned something quasi-technique about the desirability of an arris on a file. One merchant w good reputation sells them, says keep one from messing up the gullets.

After reading all this, I don't know what to think or buy.

Technique is a big factor, of course.

How about a poll-data from files purchased in the last 12 months?

David; the major concern with rounded corners on the taper file is a loss of tooth height within the formed gullet.


https://i1.wp.com/paulsellers.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/DSC_0009.jpg?resize=600%2C398&ssl=1


Stewie, is there a way to view that information w/o the registration?

David; not that I am aware of.

[Pete Taran]

One edge of a file per saw and then its done? That seems pretty low for an expectation. What is the reason for your result? Do you file both forward and backwards or just forward only? Do you press very hard and take deep cuts? It would seem the corners would always be the fragile point, why don't your corners wear out before the faces, is that because you are more focussed on the tooth surface and not the gullet?

Pat,

As I mentioned above, I machine file most of the saws I sharpen. 90% of those have teeth that are out of whack with angles all over the place. This places extreme wear on the file, so I blow out a single edge getting one saw sharp. Retail, a file edge costs $2 on average. It doesn't seem like a huge investment to me to expect it to do more. If a saw has nice even teeth and just needs a touch up, I can get two sharpenings from a single edge.

I don't push files to ridiculous limits. As you might expect, filing saws for over 25 years, you perform a lot of experiments on what works and what doesn't. A file cuts best when it is new. That's not rocket science. Pushing it further can yield results, but they are not as good as if the file were new. I figured this out long ago. I built a reputation on perfection, and my customers deserve the best I can give them, so I use a single edge because that yields the sharpest, fastest and smoothest cutting saw. All the files I have used over the years lasted and held up similarly. Simonds, Bacho, Grobet, they all lasted for about one sharpening per edge. All lost teeth on the edge, all got trashed. To think of a file as some perfect tool that is to be reused is foolish. It's not a $500 Japanese chisel, it's a $6 piece of hard steel that gets a little more worn out every time it touches metal. When it's shot it's like a used up piece of gum. It gets spit out and a new one is used.

To answer your direct questions, I only file forward, been at this 25+ years, not figuring out that a file only cuts on the push stroke in that amount of time is just silly.

As I mentioned, I use a machine that presses harder than any human ever could. Not every time, but when I need to remove a lot of steel, this is the approach. It is not kind to the file teeth.

The corners and the faces wear out similarly as I take the time to line up the file with the tooth to be filed. It is interesting to note that Foley made their retoothing punch a few degrees less than 90 degrees so when a new set of teeth is filed, the point of the file does little cutting. This extends the life of the file. If all the teeth on the corner are gone, the file can cut no deeper. Since a deeper cut is required to sharpen a tooth, when that happens, the file is trash and can be used no more. The way I file, and the way filing should be performed is that the file bears on the front of one tooth and the back of another at the same time and to the same degree. This allows you to sharpen a saw with a single stroke per gullet.

The only thing I'm focused on is getting the saw as sharp as it can be and as smooth cutting as it can be. Anything else I'll leave up to others to prognosticate on. :)

[Stew Denton]

Hi Jim,

Speaking of fools and sayings...a friend of mine used to say: "Things can't be made"Fool Proof," only fool resistant, because fools are too determined and resourceful." How true.

Regards,

Stew

[Stewie Simpson]

I will only make this comment once; my personal views on the need for better quality taper files should be considered closely aligned to the needs of the vast majority of hand saw users that still sharpen their saws by hand.

Those views should be considered in direct conflict with the values imposed by someone who is using a Foley saw filer, who openly states that he is applying greater downward pressure on the file than any human could, and then follows up that comment with, to think of a file as some perfect tool to be re-used is foolish.

Stewie;

[Pete Taran]

Stewart,

I’ll call your saying only once thingy and raise you one.

If I am using a file with more pressure than any human can and achieve excellent results and get a really well performing saw, then there can be no issues with the file for hand filing users. I use a machine because it yields better results than anyone could by hand. Perfect exact angles every time. Fleam and Rake, all the same.

Really sorry you got got a bad batch of files 5 years ago. Perhaps it’s time to get over it and move on. It is, as they say, a bit of an old chestnut.

[Stewie Simpson]

If I am using a file with more pressure than any human can and achieve excellent results and get a really well performing saw, then there can be no issues with the file for hand filing users. I use a machine because it yields better results than anyone could by hand. Perfect exact angles every time. Fleam and Rake, all the same.

Pete; I can only recommend you put aside that foley machine, allocate the time required to improve your saw sharpening technique, and you will achieve a better insight into the needs of your clientele who are not relying on a saw filing machine.

regards Stewie;

[Pete Taran]

Stewart, appreciate your kind input, but when you have reached the acme of perfection, suggestions like yours just ring hollow.

[Vincent Tai]

Pete; I can only recommend you put aside that foley machine, allocate the time required to improve your saw sharpening technique, and you will achieve a better insight into the needs of your clientele who are not relying on a saw filing machine.

regards Stewie;

Stewie; Pete has probably been filing saws for longer than I’ve been alive. I’m sure he came to the foley machine to meet customer needs and the turn around time needed while facing the amount of saws + varying degrees of condition. I don’t think a disagreement on the quality of a file warrants saying Pete needs to improve his saw sharpening technique; the guy was co partner in the Independance Tool business that brought back modern well made backsaws made by small businesses; at least to my limited understanding. I think his experience of the hard use of saw files in a machine is valuable and logical; I think his belief that our human hands can’t push them harder then the foley makes sense, although with a bad vise setup and rattling that is a one way path to hell for the file. A saw plate with the tooth line set too high above the vise is not great for the file when the plate flex is now pronounced and starts attacking the file. Perhaps a less personal and set look at what the both of you say might allow for more questions to be raised and answered.

All this talk of files and the hand cut rasps in the Auriou thread gets me thinking about making some files again. I have made a few before on the fly for some tasks and actually have been putting off making a few I need for a particular project. Perhaps I will fiddle with saw files, but they do not seem easy to handcut. Yikes another project.

Happy filing,

Vince

[steven c newman]

Went to an Estate Sale last year ( I think?) and did not have any room for these two machines.....
391430391431
So...I didn't even ask them how much they wanted for both.
I get about 4 saws per Stanley 6" slim taper file ( $5.95 + OH Sales Tax). I mainly sharpen the rip saws I have...about two or three times per year, usually when another wayward saw wanders into the shop.
I set the saw in the saw vise as low as I can...gullet bottoms are a blond hair above the edge of the jaws, barely. Also have a habit of "tapping" the file on the jaws every few strokes, seems to knock any stuck filings from the teeth of the file. I also just let the file do the work. I am never in a rush, I don't mind having to slide the saw to get to another section of teeth.

After I had sharpened one rip saw awhile back.....and took it for a test drive....it was making a rip cut faster than my hand could get out of the way. My "Saw Stop" was the left index finger....one slice across, and I stopped.....that cut healed up without a scar....unlike a similar "nip" from the bandsaw....which did leave a scar.

Just the way it works in MY shop...YMMV.

[lowell holmes]

I will add my two cents, I bought this set. Good product from a good vendor.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=69854&cat=1

http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/

[Randy Chesnut]

I'm sure I'll get slagged for this but I have to admit that I have adopted Paul Sellers' hacksaw technique for extending the life of my files, particularly when the teeth are really wonky or I am converting to a much different profile (rip to cc, for example). I use Tome Fèteira files and have been very happy with them but can get quite a bit more life out of a file if I can spare the gullet cutting required of the apices of the files. I put a fine hacksaw blade backwards in a pad saw handle and pull it Japanese style until I get a bit of a gullet expansion. I pull from one side on rip saws and do half of teeth from each side on a cc saw. Theoretically, I guess this also slightly increases the saw's ability to clear the debris as well.

I also find that the life of a file varies greatly with the type of steel used in the saw. Different steels (and different manufacturers) cut different and sound different.

Surely there is variation between and within file manufacturers so that one batch may be somewhat different. The Tome Fèteira files all seem excellent but also seem to vary a bit between files. I just swap them out when they start to squeal or don't slide well. Producing (and then using) a sweetly sharpened saw is such a joy that I have no trouble changing files or file sides whenever I sense cutting misbehaviour.

[Warren Lake]

Good info on files, have several hand saws donated and been holding off not wanting to learn on them, have asked a couple of sharpening services and didnt like the answers. I sharpen all kinds of other stuff die grinder on bandsaw blades sawzall blades and and, Have my original files then a ton from an auction then the old guy told me to take all his tools few weeks before he passed. Im not in the shop right now are the Nicholson files labelled mexico rather than US or do they even put either country on them?

[Mike Brady]

I'm a bit surprised to hear about machine filing of saws. I've seen the equipment but I was thinking that machines were used primarily during the manufacturing of saws. Besides Pete Taran, do any of the well-known saw makers or sharpeners delivery their saws right off of a filing machine? Lie-Nielsen? Bad Axe? Daryl Weir? Mike Wenzloff? Matt Cianci? My impression is that they might use a retoother, but followed by hand-filing and setting. I file my own and was taught by Daryl Weir.

[Simon MacGowen]

I'm a bit surprised to hear about machine filing of saws. I've seen the equipment but I was thinking that machines were used primarily during the manufacturing of saws. Besides Pete Taran, do any of the well-known saw makers or sharpeners delivery their saws right off of a filing machine?

Are Veritas saws machine-filed?

I got the feeling that they are but I have not come across any information about that aspect. They cut very well when compared to some of those you have named.

Simon

[Stewie Simpson]

I'm a bit surprised to hear about machine filing of saws. I've seen the equipment but I was thinking that machines were used primarily during the manufacturing of saws. Besides Pete Taran, do any of the well-known saw makers or sharpeners delivery their saws right off of a filing machine? Lie-Nielsen? Bad Axe? Daryl Weir? Mike Wenzloff? Matt Cianci? My impression is that they might use a retoother, but followed by hand-filing and setting. I file my own and was taught by Daryl Weir.

Mike; avoiding any further discussion on the merits of saw filing machines, with the saw making work that I do, the teeth are all shaped, sharpened, and set by hand.

My personal views on the Veritas Star-Trek backsaws I shall keep to myself. But from what I hear, they represent excellent value for your buck.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/my%20backsaw%20builds/_DSC0068_zpsryzsqtz7.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/my%20backsaw%20builds/_DSC0068_zpsryzsqtz7.jpg.html)

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/my%20backsaw%20builds/_DSC0069_zpsaerdaaim.jpg

(http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/my%20backsaw%20builds/_DSC0069_zpsaerdaaim.jpg.html)http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/my%20backsaws/_DSC0019_zpsurca0blg.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/my%20backsaws/_DSC0019_zpsurca0blg.jpg.html)

[steven c newman]

Starting to remind me of a fellow about 20 years ago.....he started a Grand Crusade against all things from Minwax. Page after page, sometimes three or four at a time. He was trying to get everyone who would listen to buy a different brand. Why? Turns out he was selling that other brand, and Minwax was cutting into his sales. Then, he also started on shellac, saying the ONLY kind to use was freshly made from flakes. Flakes that you could buy from.......yep, he was the main supplier in the tri-state area of flake shellac. Brands like Zinsser were on the crusade's hit list.

Now a days...seems to be something like that going around......makes one feel like watching late night tV......Info-mercials.

[Pete Taran]

Mike,

Saw Filing machines have been around since before there was power to make them run via motor. I know for a fact that Lie Nielsen uses a filer because when I sold him the business in 1998, the saw filing equipment was part of the deal. Mark Harrell uses an Acme filer which he prefers to the Foley. I also know that Mike Wenzloff, if he still makes saws, uses a filer as well because we had many conversations back in the day about how to get the best performance out of it.

I'm not sure where this "doing it by hand is better mindset" is coming from. Blacksmiths no longer forge steel for car leaf springs because a better result can be made by machine. People no longer tap rubber trees and cook the sap down to make tires because it is easier done by machine. Most people no longer save fat trimming from beef to render to make their own soap. Machines are around because in almost every instance, the product that is produced is superior to what could be done by hand.

When I first started making dovetail saws back in 1996, I was already an accomplished hand filer. I taught myself to file to tune regular saws I had purchased and get them cutting right. I had a dream of filing the dovetail saws by hand, but after doing a couple dozen with 17 ppi teeth, it was just too time consuming and tedious. I looked for a better way. That better way was the foley. With the proper file and machine modifications, it will produced a better saw plate than anyone could by hand. It is impossible to hold the file completely consistent when hand filing like a saw filer can. You might think they are the same, but if you look at the teeth under the microscope on teeth that small, you will see the angles are all over the place.

I've found, in the end, people don't care how you get their saw sharp, just that it is sharp and cuts great. That is the goal I strive for, not some outmoded feeling for nostalgia of the old days.

FWIW.

Pete

[Phil Mueller]

Always impressed with your saws, Stewie. Beautiful work.

[Jason Martin Winnipeg]

It's disappointing that someone has to defend themselves for using a machine in their business or even for personal use. Just let everyone use what they want to use, it's not hurting you or anyone else at all. Sheesh.

[Pete Taran]

Jason,

Such is the situation on the interwebs. Everyone is an expert, and your experience counts for nothing. I don't let it bother me though, I'll keep shipping razor sharp machine filed saws, and the arm chair skeptics can remain in their arm chairs.

Happy Filing!

[Derek Cohen]

I'm amazed at the chutzpah that Stewie has in criticising Pete, who is the recognised doyen - father even - of modern era backsaw makers. I think that this thread has run its course.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Brady]

Pete, thanks for that explanation. If you look at this from the perspective of a hobbyist / consumer, I don't recall ever having a saw maker or sharpener refer to their using a filing machine (retoothing--yes) in a manufacturing tour, video, or personal appearance. I have read many accounts of the art of saw filing and how the relative randomness of the human sawtooth filing stroke makes for a smoother cutting saw. It makes no difference to me as a person, like many others, who is comfortable with saw sharpening. It does explain an instance where I had the opportunity to use a couple of NOS vintage saws that surprised me by their rough cuts and overset teeth. It also explains why saws from certain makers have similar sawing characteristics even between saws produced over a period of years; Lee Valley back saws, for instance. I don't mean to portray this as some sort of dirty little secret; but on the other hand, I can't say that anyone other than you has been forthcoming about it either.

[Tom M King]

In 1974, I hired a good carpenter in his '70's, Mr. Randolph Pierce. Mr. Pierce had bought into the sales pitch of the Foley filing machines, and bought the equipment to sharpen hand saws, and circular saws, thinking that he would earn extra income. This was still the time when carpenters used handsaws a lot, because there was not a good power miter saw yet. Finish work got done with Langdon-Acme's for the most part, and handsaws used by all good carpenters for finish cuts on stair parts, and wide baseboards that were too large to get into the miter box. I doubt Mr. Pierce ever realized a profit from the machines.

I forget what Mr. Pierce charged for sharpening a handsaw, but it was not much. A lot of other local carpenters sent him saws to sharpen. He did a good job with the machines, and our handsaws always cut true, and fast.

Mr. Pierce died sometime in the '80's, and I sent some saws, by another carpenter, to a filer in the next county. Only after I got them back was I told that fellow had terrible eyesight. He got the plate on the big backsaw for my miterbox out of parallel, and I saw no choice but to learn how to sharpen handsaws myself. I was already pretty good at filing a chainsaw chain, so I picked it up fairly easily.

There was nothing in the world wrong with the saws sharpened by Mr. Pierce, on his Foley machine. If he was still here, I doubt I would have ever picked up a file to sharpen a handsaw.

This particular forum is the worst I know of anywhere, for chest thumping. Maybe it needs another name. This from one with 4% Neanderthal blood.

[Simon MacGowen]

It also explains why saws from certain makers have similar sawing characteristics even between saws produced over a period of years; Lee Valley back saws, for instance. I don't mean to portray this as some sort of dirty little secret; but on the other hand, I can't say that anyone other than you has been forthcoming about it either.

I had the Bad Axe saw which is carried by Lee Valley and the product page clearly describes it as hand filed. One can take it that if the saws are not described as hand filed, one cannot assume it is hand filed. Same for rasps, some of which are described as hand cut. Origin should be treated the same manner: if it is not stated as made in USA, it cannot be assumed as America made.

I see a huge difference in hand cut rasps vs machined rasps, but none between hand filed and machine filed backsaws, including the expensive Rob Cosman's.

Simon

[Jim Koepke]

I have read many accounts of the art of saw filing and how the relative randomness of the human sawtooth filing stroke makes for a smoother cutting saw.

From my limited experience filing saws, "relative randomness" of your teeth does NOT make for a smoother cutting saw. Especially if you end up with random tooth heights in the process.

One curiosity of mine, if Pete would care to answer, is how many saws a day can a machine file compared to a person filing?

Also while the machine is filing can the attendant be taking care of other business like packing and unpacking other orders?

If a machine can increase throughput maybe it is wise of a business operator who uses such an advantage.

My guess is a machine can also help to avoid a lot of headaches from eye strain.

jtk

[Pete Taran]

Jim,

It's a mixed bag. The machine cannot be left unattended while working. There are so many moving parts, it requires constant attention. I watch it like a hawk. Having said that, a super, competent filer can likely file a saw complete in 30 minutes from jointing to shaping to cutting in fleam. The saw filer can do it in less than 5 minutes for a rip saw, slightly longer for a crosscut.

As previously mentioned, I use it for the repeatability aspect of it. Also, as many saws as I have filed, I would surely have arthritis if I did it by hand.

100% agree about the randomness comment. Even one tooth that is over set causes a rough cut. An occasional low tooth will not cause any harm. An occasional high tooth is just the opposite and can kink a saw in the hands of the wrong person.

I got my first saw filer quite by accident. A good friend and a guy I worked with while I was an Army Officer near Baltimore owned a historic house in Gettysburg, PA. The home originally had a cupola on the very top of the roof that you could stand on and look over the town. At some point it was ripped off. He wanted to make a new one, but didn't really know much about joinery. I helped him timber frame a replacement which was a pretty complicated project. We framed it in his barn out of hemlock, and then hoisted it on the roof assembled with a crane.

He wanted to pay me, but I wouldn't hear of it. He knew of my interest in saws, so he asked if I would like this saw filer contraption that was in the basement of the house that we were building the cupola for. I gladly accepted. It's my favorite out of the 6 that I own. It is the same filer I used to sharpen every IT dovetail saw that I ever made, except for the first few dozen.

391563

[Jim Koepke]

[edited]

As previously mentioned, I use it for the repeatability aspect of it. Also, as many saws as I have filed, I would surely have arthritis if I did it by hand.

100% agree about the randomness comment. Even one tooth that is over set causes a rough cut. An occasional low tooth will not cause any harm. An occasional high tooth is just the opposite and can kink a saw in the hands of the wrong person.

I got my first saw filer quite by accident.

Thanks for the answer Pete. The story brings a smile.

Many things in my life have been much better due to being able to count on their repeatability. My hope is such an accident rolls my way one day. There are a a few saws in my shop that could use attention. It is enough just to keep my regular users sharp.

The first phrase that comes to mind about a high tooth is snaggle tooth. Haven't heard anyone say that since the 70s.

jtk

[Tom M King]

Google " Foley 387 saw filer youtube " , and there are several videos, if you want to see one operate. Extra spaces to make it easier to copy, and paste, but the forums did away with the space.