Custom woodworking business?

[Eric C Stoltzfus]

Do any of the members on here have a custom woodworking business? As in people come to you with an idea, you draw up a design and give them a quote for it, and you build it for them? Is this a viable business idea?

[Robert Engel]

How will you get them to come to you? Who are they?

I have a business (not ww'ing) but these are fundamental things to consider.

Custom ww'ing can be many things. I know a couple guys who love to make furniture & run successful shops, they readily admit the bulk of their living comes from cabinetmaking and the occasional conference table.

I have a friend who built a pretty successful business on nothing but a Facebook page, so keep in mind the very first thing you need to do is get a website and Facebook page.

It also helps to have a portfolio of projects to show off your talents.

[johnny means]

Viable, certainly. Difficult, certainly. I managed to make a living selling children's theme beds for a decade or so. Financially, physically and mentally I would have been better of building custom millwork for someone else. It was very rewarding, though.

[Jim Becker]

Lots and lots of SMC community members do custom furniture, cabinetry and other work. My new retirement business includes that. But I don't "draw up" any designs gratis to produce a quote...that's paid work, too. The exception is for speculative work/marketing prototypes, etc., for folks I'm friends with.

[Peter Kelly]

Figure out some sort of desirable niche woodworking product or service and specialize in that. Random custom work can be very difficult to price out and ensure consistent profitability. Ostensibly less risk of entering an already saturated market as well.

There's currently a thread on this very subject on the Woodweb Business and Management Forum.
http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/forums/business.pl?read=825262

[Matt Day]

I started a small custom furniture business last year. Emphasis on small. It’s really a glorified hobby that I have insurance for and a website, which makes people more comfortable to pay me for work.
One of the biggest lessons I’ve learned so far has been that you might go into it work thinking you’ll make coffee tables and dining tables and desks, but most of my inquiries have been about semi-random things made out of wood. Such as a statue stand, display case, planters, etc. Also, once you really start tracking time and materials, you’ll see how long it really does take to complete a project. That makes it hard to handle more than a project at a time. My marketing is word of mouth, because if I get 3 projects at once I’m toast.
Lastly, I by no means pay the bills and would never plan to. My wife is a physician and that’s where the bread comes from, not my teeny tiny business (smaller than a small business).

[Larry Edgerton]

For most people, no. You are not going to get rich, and at times it can be frustrating.

Read "Making Things Work" by Nancy Hiller. She captures every bit of BS you are going to have to go through very well.

[Darcy Warner]

It's just great, people suck, people don't value your time, best thing you can learn is to just say no.

[Brandon Speaks]

What do you mean by business. I think most hobby woodworker businesses are more of a cover my cost to do wood working model not a pay your bills model.

I have tried to map out a viable business model around a hobby several times and always quickly come to the conclusion that even if market was not a problem (which is a false assumption anyway) that it would not be possible to replace my day job and maintain a standard of living that I want. It would come close if I would also sell my house and go live in my small hunting cabin which could eliminate many personal expenses and live very frugally, but even then was iffy.

Only way I could ever pull it off is if my wife suddenly starts making a bunch of money, or when I retire. After this conclusion I switched tactics and instead focus on working and saving in such a way to make early retirement a possibility.

I dont mean to discourage you, people do pull this off, but you do have to go into it with your eyes open.

[Charlie Jones]

I once had a small woodworking business. For three years I managed to do my day job and the business. It required many night in the shop until 11:00 Pm. I made enough money to buy my tools. I am considering restarting it to supplement my retirement. I plan to work smarter this time. I agree that FB or a website is valuable.

[Mark Bolton]

Also, once you really start tracking time and materials,

This is what you need to quantify out of the gate. We have a full time shop here doing a wide variety of work nearly 100% wholesale to contractors, interior designers, architects, and retail shops. Its a bear.

You can search the archives here and on most any other forum to find all the answers your going to get anywhere. Its extremely hard, its extremely demanding, and you'd better love riding roller coasters.

With day to day products what you will most often find is that many who have a small woodworking business have a spouse that carries a lot of the burden of the household (some extra income, health insurance, and so on) and Im not taking anything away from that model but its absolutely not an honest accounting of what it is to be "in business". Sadly now with so many people retired, have a bit of money, buy a CNC machine or setup a dream shop for their retirement or side hobby while earning money elsewhere, you may likely have a very very difficult time competing on anything someone can be making in their garage during their off time that will make them a few bucks towards their fun-in-the-shop-time and they dont in any way shape or form have a desire to do the honest math of how much they are making. They would just about do it for free just for the fun.

You will likely need to find product(s) that require things those people cant provide. One end of the spectrum is niche commodity items and the other end of the spectrum is extreme high end work (and Im talking extreme like establishing a demand for 15-20K dinning/conference tables, $2500 rocking chairs, and so on). With any type of commodity item all you have to do is look to etsy or other online craft sales sites to see that many people are willing to work for pennies on the dollar. If your in a market, and have the aptitude for the uber high end market that can be lucrative but everybody and their brother are knocking off Maloof chairs when being creative use to mean you may find inspiration from someones work but you dont copy it.

Do your homework. Ask your local community, go talk to local shops to find out if there is a demand. Dont rely on friends and word of mouth, they can be phenomenal but are not a guarantee.

[andy bessette]

I customize yachts. Most of it is custom woodwork, though I design and build in many different materials and have a lot of metalworking as well as woodworking equipment. Also get involved in some repairs and am skilled in many different boat building specialty areas, but do no painting or varnishing professionally. All my business is from word of mouth as I do no advertising. It has been viable for over 40 years.

Prior to this I had a career in engineering design. Much of that experience carried over to boat building and helps me take on rather challenging projects.

[William Hodge]

It would be smart to first come up with a viable business plan.

You need to identify a product that you are able to make and sell to people, for a profit. The process should match your skills and equipment. You should be able to offer better service and product than the competition can.

Community colleges and community development corporations offer classes in writing a business plan. You might discover that you are best suited to do something you had not thought of. For example, I wanted to build furniture. I found out that people pay for furniture out of discretionary money, but they get mortgages to buy millwork. Millwork is an investment in a property that will increase the sales value of a building. I haven't ever been paid to build a piece of furniture.

Temperamentally, I am better at selling millwork than I am at selling something people don't need, like an end table. I know someone who can make people happily open their wallets to pay for a wooden music stand. Find what you feel good about selling.

[John Sincerbeaux]

I have had a small WW business for 17 years now. It has worked really well for me because I use my “real job”, flying for a living to support the WW business. Flying to Hawaii weekly has allowed me to buy Koa while on my layovers then bring it back with me as cargo. I then produce high-end Koa boxes with Marquetry tops and bring them back to the islands where I have sold them in galleries and stores. I also get several commission pieces from the endless stream of pilots and flight attendants that I work with every trip. Definitely a very unique product in a very unique environment, but it has worked well and has been a lot of fun.

[Darcy Warner]

I need a sugar mama like Matt Day has. Lol.

[Chris Fournier]

I made a living out of my shop for many years. It's true that you'll make money making cabinets if you have the knack, I don't consider that woodworking... But I'll say this: Woodworking is a good way to make a hard living but a hard way to make a good living. Personally I've left the field to make real money and I am. But I'll leave real work as soon as I can to be semi-retired and enjoy my old age and make some money to prop up my retirement income. Woodworking is fun! It just might not be fun if you rely on it to make a living. Do what moves you and adapt! Good luck!

[Joe Jensen]

I've done occasional commissions over 40 years as a serious amateur. Most people have no idea that a custom piece will cost more than mass produced crap from Ikea or Walmart, seriously. There are those that do understand, and want something truly custom. I had one customer who had a tree milled from a family farm and they had me make several pieces. I would encourage you to keep a day job and add in the woodworking for hire. If people want custom they will wait for it. Also, charge $50 min per hour if working in your hobby shop. I found that when I charged more I got more commissions. $100 an hour would realistic if you have a shop. Don't forget that designing, buying wood, driving to the customer, etc all take time and you need to be paid.

[andy bessette]

I've done occasional commissions over 40 years as a serious amateur...
charge $50 min per hour... $100 an hour would realistic if you have a shop. Don't forget that designing, buying wood, driving to the customer, etc all take time and you need to be paid.

Come on! Be serious. No one is going to start out by trying to charge $100/hour for all their time "designing, buying wood, driving to the customer, etc." Just really bad advice.

[Martin Wasner]

$100 an hour would realistic if you have a shop.

In my shop, if an employee can't crank close to $100/hr gross, they don't last long. My time, uninterrupted, I figure is worth about $200.

[Darcy Warner]

In my shop, if an employee can't crank close to $100/hr gross, they don't last long. My time, uninterrupted, I figure is worth about $200.

Exactly. So many people undervalue their time.

[Darcy Warner]

Come on! Be serious. No one is going to start out by trying to charge $100/hour for all their time "designing, buying wood, driving to the customer, etc." Just really bad advice.

Not really. It's way too hard to try to recover from not charging enough. If I am doing something related to work, someone is paying for that time.

[johnny means]

In my shop, if an employee can't crank close to $100/hr gross, they don't last long. My time, uninterrupted, I figure is worth about $200.

I'm curious as to how you calculate that value. If I could have found employees that could generated that type of value, I'd be retired on a mega yacht by now.

[andy bessette]

We're going to need hip boots if it gets any deeper.

[Mike Kees]

Andy,as a business owner what Darcy says about it being way to hard to recover from not charging enough is spot on.I started on my own as a carpenter about 25 years ago and charged way to little my first 5 years or so,it took nearly a decade to get my rates to a level where I could afford to live. I to value my time at a minimum of 100/hour. What everyone who is not a business owner misses is that we pay for everything that wears out ,goes missing,or gets screwed up. Then there is taxes on umpteen levels,wages,etc. At the end of the day you have to be making money off employees or there is no point in having them. Mike.

[andy bessette]

MK--what you guys are missing is that this is a startup, not a profitable company with employees, and with the company executives earning $200+/hour. I'll bet when you started out, 25 years ago, you did't charge every minute of time spent at $100/hour. It is misleading to imply that this is what the OP should expect to get while he is trying to start a new business. There'll be lots of time spent that can't even be charged into the jobs he may be fortunate to get. And there'll be jobs where he winds up on a very steep learning curve and not all his time will be chargeable.

[Matt Mattingley]

I have been custom building things from customer designs for about 25 years. The largest job I had was about four years ago for about $1 million bid. It was a two-year project and I was only 10% involved. There was four customer revisions that had to pay for work that was done prior revisions.... all materials were paid for. Any mistakes.... fix and replace. Got to do it as a drawing! If the drawing was wrong, the customer paid double. There was a few stop build and analyze how far I got on the previous design which needs to be paid. Custom building is great if you have customers with deep pockets and you got them on the hook. Revisions are NOT free. This job ended up running 40% over just on my part. There was a secondary part that also ended up running 20% over.. But this was a $3 million build. The customer wanted TO change our part more than changing the other Builders part as contracts work as a percentage.

Why fix the house when you can fix the kitchen cabinets to fit the house.

Cross all your t and dot all your i well writing up your contract! This particular project was for a well known German SUV manufacturer.

Stepping on your own toe always hurts less... than letting somebody else stepping on your toe!

I can build for IKEA. When/if I’m building something for them, there will be no lights/people in the building when production starts. It’s kind of hard to compete. People want to buy cheap. This is why Walmart floods America.

Next time you’re in Homedepot and you find a very knowledgable grey-haired guy. Ask him where he used to work. You already know what he’s pushing, that’s what you’re therefore. Cheap cheap cheap. Good chance being he used to be your foundry guy that built (your vintage craftsman/Oliver/Tannewitz, Northfield ...) tablesaw that is no longer in production. Now ask him which table saw is better on the rack and tell him you want the best of the best. Then listen to his rent.

Finish by telling him you want a saw stop that was patented and developed by an American which was sent all to manufacturing in China.

Remember to give him a big hug as you leave with your new ¥$¥#

[Martin Wasner]

I'm curious as to how you calculate that value. If I could have found employees that could generated that type of value, I'd be retired on a mega yacht by now.

What my product costs, and how long it takes to build?
As an example, I charge $131.67 for a drawer. I can build a dovetail drawer on average in about 45 minutes. That works out to about $175/hour. That doesn't include the time spent mounting slides, locking devices, or mounting the front. I'd say there's another five to ten minutes added on for that.
I can build a flat panel cabinet door in about 15 minutes, I charge $51.98 for those. That's a bit over $200/hour gross.

If I could get an employee to do what I do, they'd be making a really solid living. Not Russian oligarch money, but pretty dang good for a tradesmen.


Gotta remember, self employment involves doing a lot of crap that is necessary, but not directly generating revenue. Like scrubbing the head, cleaning the shop, or doing payroll. Things that are necessary to the function of a business, but you're not billing for it.

Overhead is way more than people would think. My shop with no employee costs takes about $7k a month to keep it afloat. Taxes, insurance, insurance, insurance, mortgage payment, water bill, electric bill, etc. 60% of my product disappears in material and hardware. An employee making $25/hr costs more like $35/hr by the time you pay them, payroll taxes, and work comp. That leaves me $5 an hour to deal with them screwing up, wasting material, or damaging tooling. That's not much, and honestly is pretty close to breaking even if they are getting paid that much and only generating that kind of revenue. 5% isn't a bad margin, so long as things go well though.

[Martin Wasner]

MK--what you guys are missing is that this is a startup, not a profitable company with employees, and with the company executives earning $200+/hour. I'll bet when you started out, 25 years ago, you did't charge every minute of time spent at $100/hour. It is misleading to imply that this is what the OP should expect to get while he is trying to start a new business. There'll be lots of time spent that can't even be charged into the jobs he may be fortunate to get. And there'll be jobs where he winds up on a very steep learning curve and not all his time will be chargeable.


I'm not disagreeing, with limited resources, you need to make up for the efficiency that an established business has by jamming in the hours. But, you can't sell yourself short either.

[Larry Edgerton]

I made a living out of my shop for many years. It's true that you'll make money making cabinets if you have the knack, I don't consider that woodworking... But I'll say this: Woodworking is a good way to make a hard living but a hard way to make a good living. Personally I've left the field to make real money and I am. But I'll leave real work as soon as I can to be semi-retired and enjoy my old age and make some money to prop up my retirement income. Woodworking is fun! It just might not be fun if you rely on it to make a living. Do what moves you and adapt! Good luck!

On the custom one off side this is spot on. Fun to do the weird stuff, but hard to make a living as its hard to find people that will pay the real costs. At least in my neighborhood. I keep track of costs on every job and on the jobs that I like, the kind most shops can't do, I always lose money. Losing money to me is any time my shop rate dips below $50hr. Keep in mind that my tools were all paid for when I was doing cabinets, much more profitable but to me mind numbingly boring.

Martin has a good handle on it, I wish I was that good with numbers, but I have always got sucked into the strange jobs out of some illogical need to do something new all the time.Unless you are fortunate enough to do business in one of the crazy money areas, places I would generally not want to live, production is a better, more predictable way to go.

[Brian Holcombe]

You guys have more years in this than me, but my opinion is that when you first go into business as a small custom shop you’re not efficient enough to be worth $100/hr. After a few years you become efficient.

$100/he is not that much. I had my chimney swept...the quote worked out to $431/hr. I mentioned I wasn’t willing to pay 3x the typical rate for ‘skilled’ labor and they were ready to walk out of my house. How’s that for a niche!

[Mike Kees]

Andy you missed my point entirely. I told you I screwed up by NOT charging enough out of the gate. If the OP does the same then he did not learn anything from reading this thread. No I did not charge enough in my early years and it cost me dearly. This is solid business advice,take it for what it is worth. If you plan on going into or being in business and expect to earn your living from it starting out charging enough is very important. If the OP wants to do this as away to supplement his income then that is a whole different game. Mike.

[Jim Becker]

MK--what you guys are missing is that this is a startup, not a profitable company with employees, and with the company executives earning $200+/hour. I'll bet when you started out, 25 years ago, you did't charge every minute of time spent at $100/hour. It is misleading to imply that this is what the OP should expect to get while he is trying to start a new business. There'll be lots of time spent that can't even be charged into the jobs he may be fortunate to get. And there'll be jobs where he winds up on a very steep learning curve and not all his time will be chargeable.
I'm a start-up and my target rate has been $100 an hour from the get-go, whether it's work I'm doing with my hands or machine time for the CNC. I'll cut a true friend a break, but decided early on that undercharging is a hard thing to break away from as mentioned by others above as well as by folks I trust who have their own small businesses in trades and otherwise. Yes, it's true that there will be "uncompensated time", especially in the beginning when initial marketing is involved, but that's not something that should be used to drive the expected hourly rate down since it will only hurt later on.

[Matt Day]

I should also mention to the OP that this topic comes up every 6 months, so do some searching here to find lots of information. I wonder how many of those guys we knock some sense into?

[David Kumm]

When discussing rates per hour it is also important to understand that not every hour is billable and controlling the nonproductive unpaid time is critical. When explaining rates to clients in the accounting business, I tell people the rate is irrelevant without knowing how productive or fast someone can work. I learned long ago not to ask how hard someone works but rather how much they got done. It is also important to - at times- overwork everyone including yourself. The available work usually consumes the available time and it is only when you are overbooked that you find out what everyone is capable of. Those are the times you make real money. The times you are comfortably busy pay the bills and maybe make you a living. Dave

[Wade Lippman]

I tried to get into it years ago but didn't make a go of it.

1) While you certainly should get $100/hour, good luck getting work at that price. A table for $5000?! Maybe once you have established customers.

2) You have to do things that are wholly objectionable. A customer wanted a "cherry" fold down desk to match an Ethan Allen chest of drawers. That required putting dark stain and dye on cherry. Couldn't talk him into birch; had to "paint" the cherry.

[Darcy Warner]

If I have stuff to do that doesn't really pay, or that I can bill for, I work those 4 hours after my regular 10 hours I already put in. My boss is a Richard.

[Yonak Hawkins]

I envy you guys who can get $100 an hour every hour of the week. If you keep busy at that rate, more power to you. In my area, if I asked for $100 an hour, I'd be sitting looking at the phone a lot.

[Darcy Warner]

I envy you guys who can get $100 an hour every hour of the week. If you keep busy at that rate, more power to you. In my area, if I asked for $100 an hour, I'd be sitting looking at the phone a lot.

I live in podunk IN, you don't ask, you tell. I have never made any money from poor people. The more I ask for my services, the better the clients get.

[Patrick Kane]

Yet another hobbyist here. I started off selling crap on etsy--coat racks made of base of all things lol. I think i was 23ish and just out of school. Really enjoyed working on the house, and decided i wanted a small shop of my own. Unfortunately, i had diddly after the house, which precipitated the etsy stuff. I tracked expenses and time like a maniac, and i think i averaged $20ish an hour. At the time, i bet i was only making $18-20 salaried at a corporate job, and i was happy with the etsy stuff. Every dime i made i poured back into tools. Upping my tooling lead to a wider array of jobs i could take. Theres only so much you can make with a dewalt miter saw and a couple crappy F clamps. My goal was always to make as much or more than my hourly rate at my office job. For quite a few years, i was churning out quite a bit of business. Last year things peaked, and i also started to feel a little burned out. Also didnt help that i essentially had every tool i 'needed', which was the primary motivator originally. For whatever reason, banking a lot of cash on the side in exchange for my fleeting free time started to lose its allure. I turned 30 this year, have a banging shop, and a nice jumpstart on a retirement account. Im a little sad i spent a lot of my mid and late 20s working late nights and weekends, but it also helped me dig out of student debt and meaningfully contribute to a 401k when i otherwise might not have.

Its all well and good to set a number you want to hit, but ultimately you are tied to market price and how effective/efficient you are. Funny how everyone has independently arrived at the same conclusion for home shop time. I always shoot for $75-100/hr gross minus lumber. Recent project was replacing furniture tops that were damaged during a move. 2 hours spent chiseling the cracked and broken granite tops off, 4 hours selecting boards, milling, gluing, and creating templates of the curves/shape of the previous granite tops, 1 hour sanding, 1 hour spraying, 1 hour delivery and install. Give or take 8-10 hours to complete the project. That was a $1100 job. I used roughly 30-40 bdft of 5/4 or 6/4 cherry that i bought out of a barn for maybe $1.50 a bdft. Turned out well, and aside from chiseling glued down granite off the base furniture, it was an easy build.

Thats an example of a random/odd job that frankly no decent pro shop would want to touch, but a guy like me can gobble up and make money on. Ive taken vacation time to do jobs and even had one stint when i switched jobs to do this "full time" for a month. The money was there, but the lack of benefits, stability, and career longevity turned me away. I am the one that needs to provide all those things to the family since my wife owns her own one-woman-show small business. Like others said, its a nice way to make a modest income, never struck me as a great way to make a lot of money. I would either run myself ragged to achieve that number, or end up managing a shop and not doing much o the work myself. Still, there is definitely merits and benefits to living an enjoyable and modest life running your own small show.

[Joe Jensen]

My point was to build the custom furniture business over time with customers willing to pay what will earn you enough to eventually make a living at it. Here is an example. My wife has a friend who was insistent that I build a custom cabinet for their home theater room. I wasn't very interested but my wife got me to quote it. Simply cabinet but the finish had to match the rest of the cabinets in the room and it was a bitch to match. I quoted like $500 a foot for an 8 foot lower cabinet. Basic, raised panels, alder, nothing special and quick to build. But when I counted;
- the 45 min drive each way to measure
- the 45 minute drive each way to install
- the time spent sketching it up to build
- the time spent driving to buy alder (which I hate)
- the time spent making samples of finish to match it
- the time spent ordering hinges, etc etc

Not counting any shop supplies, or overhead, I only made $75 an hour. Now, I'm an amateur and if a pro the material would be delivered, I'd have inventory, etc. What I am saying though as a small guy, the hours outside of building are real hours. BTW, I don't quote an hourly rate, I quote a price for the job. If the customer won't pay that then I don't work on paid projects in the shop. If I really wanted to go full time, I'd do is slowly. Keep a day job that pays insurance and do the projects at night. Build up a clientele and when you start to have A LOT more requests for work at prices that will make you a GOOD living, quit the day job and go full time. Also for the prices I'm talking about, the output has to be fine furniture grade and not something that looks like amateur hour.

[Robert Engel]

Lack of experience to produce a labor estimate is, I think THE biggest issue starting out because

1) you've got no experience doing a job and
2) you haven't yet developed the efficiency that comes with experience.

Do you "run an open tab", ie, add up the hours and charge it when the job is done? That's not feasible. Actually, I had a friend who did antique car restoration he charged like that but he had 40 years experience, was extremely talented, and constantly turned away business.

Let me illustrate with real life examples. With no prior experience, I built a complete kitchen for my home. Yup, by the time I got to the 20th cabinet box, and 20th raised panel door, I got pretty darn efficient!! After I was done, the kitchen designer we worked with came by to check it out & told me it would be a $30-35K job in their shop, (minimum depending on hardware). I was quite taken aback, then I added up the materials/hardware and it came to about $6000 (and I'm sure I didn't have them all). I have no idea of the labor, but if it was 200 hours, that's right around $30K. Truth be known, I probably had closer to 400 hours in it. My point is, I would have no earthly idea what to charge for labor prior to the job. You really have to keep track of your shop time to get an idea.

After that experience I had the opportunity to work with a friend of mine in a commercial cabinet shop. We were building cabinets for my business - yes I hired it done because after doing the kitchen I couldn't build/install them even for myself for what he estimated. Plus it was all laminate work which I don't like to do. Anyway, I learned some shortcuts, jigs and ways to build cabs better and in 1/2 the time.

I think one approach starting out is get quotes yourself from a couple shops. Then quote your prospective customer 10-15% less. This will get you in the ballpark. Your lower overhead will offset for lack of efficiency.

For one-off type work, the problem gets even worse. Let's say your asked to give an estimate & build a trestle dining table and set of chairs. He's already been to the $100/hr guy and got a quote. What do you do? You hate to say no, but f you knock off 10% you still have to invest your own time learning to bend wood, etc. when IKEA sells a well made solid wood chair $70??

A couple guys I know with successful small shops, both did that with cabinetmaking. One has a back round in a cabinet shop, the other was a carpenter. They told me the only way they can compete with the big shops in town is lower overhead/taking smaller jobs. They are both limited on the size of jobs they can take due to issues finding dependable labor. They also told me a selling point is some people want more personal service & equate "custom" with a small shop, not a big commercial shop..

One is a good friend told me his heart is really in furniture making. But in our area its pretty much non-existent market. He makes the occasional conference table or desk, (slab work, too) but he told me his custom cabinet work is what keeps him in business. 95% of his work comes from word of mouth he does not have a website, Facebook page or advertise in any way. The way he got started was building cabinets while he was working as a carpenter for a contractor 40 years ago.

I thing its a difficult business to break into because its manufacturing based, not service based, and you have to have a solid business model to compete with the big boys.

[Mark Gibney]

There's lot of good advice and honest opinion based on people's real experiences on this thread.

I would add that, like ANY business, work for someone else before you jump into launching your own business. Maybe (Eric, the OP) is working in a cabinet shop or for a furniture maker, we don't know. When you work for someone you learn so much that you're not even aware you're learning - not just how to cut wood, to build a plywood box, but the pace of the business, how to talk to clients, you also get to know suppliers, you get to really know what machines / tools you need. You can pick up tools as a great bargain comes around, and store it in your garage as you get it up and running properly.

You may even get small jobs your boss doesn't want, and you may even be able to use the shop to do the work.

Getting a shop up and running is a huge investment in money and time. If you're on your own getting your physical shop going, trying to find work, trying to design and make - that's a lot of balls in the air.

And of course if you can work out of your garage or a building on your property you'll save a bundle in overhead. If you decided you want to specialize in chairs then you can probably work out of a big garage, if you end up making 10' tables you might need to get a bigger place.

[Warren Lake]

In Europe you need your papers and more to have a bus. Likely Saw stop has sold a lot more saws here where its a free for all with injuries from people with no training (dont need to tell me about trained people who have had injuries, the realities of big jobs and deadlines is a different world )

You need your papers to be an electrician or plumber in NA. Lets get that in gear so the playing field is more even to start. Likely there would be less junk out there.


Martin in your time to make a drawer how long of that is the actual dovetailing? think last I saw you had a new dovetail machine.

[Andrew Hughes]

I got a new woodworker this week. But I had to let him go all he wanted to do is eat popsicles and complain the jointer was too tall.
I even gave him a stool to stand on.:)

[Jared Sankovich]

Interestingly I was listening to a Bryan Boggs podcast today where he mentioned a quick sentence or two on estimates and pricing. If I'm remembering correctly he mentioned $100/hr for his shop on custom pieces.

[Mel Fulks]

I got a new woodworker this week. But I had to let him go all he wanted to do is eat popsicles and complain the jointer was too tall.
I even gave him a stool to stand on.:)

Good looking kid. Put him in sales department !

[Andrew Hughes]

That’s actually a good idea, I should bring when I go out on bids.
Maybe I’ll land more jobs.
Then I can get that boy in a proper daycare I’m tired of watching spongebob :)

[Warren Lake]

At trade shows some companies have a booth tart. I did the top craft show years back in Toronto. If someone came in with a puppy or a baby my booth was packed and you could not move. havent done those shows in a long time but if I went back id have a booth tart with a baby who had a puppy. :)

[Martin Wasner]

Martin in your time to make a drawer how long of that is the actual dovetailing? think last I saw you had a new dovetail machine.

Three minutes and change.

[Mark Bolton]

God these threads just make my head spin. The entire thread is laced with $100/hr numbers but dingbats want to believe the 100/hr number is a fallacy or conspiracy to dissuade new entrants.

Do your math. Do your math on having a single employee. If you have a single employee and are not turning 100/hr out the door your out of business.

No one said you have to "ask" or "tell" your customers what your hourly rate is. Unless your in a royally luxurious position with regards to demand if your not pricing by the job you haven't read the first paragraph of any book on business.

Your hourly rate is an accounting number at the end of a job (or week or month). At that point your either doing honest accounting or your cooking the books.

This has all been archived so many times its nuts.

[andy bessette]

...dingbats want to believe the 100/hr number is a fallacy or conspiracy to dissuade new entrants...

Calling us names does not help your argument, is in very poor taste and in fact should not be allowed here.

[Mark Hennebury]

Do any of the members on here have a custom woodworking business? As in people come to you with an idea, you draw up a design and give them a quote for it, and you build it for them? Is this a viable business idea?

No. I think that covers it.

[Darcy Warner]

No. I think that covers it.

Boom!!! Lol

[Darcy Warner]

I didn't know this was a safe space....

[Warren Lake]

Its not, we have machines that can cut your fingers off here. Er well some have one that doesnt, oh never mind.

[Mark Bolton]

We're going to need hip boots if it gets any deeper.

So now the overlords have decided to moderate out my response. You felt free to insinuate above that statements were getting "deep" which I think anyone knows what we would be deep in. You seem to feel the statements were so deep we wouldnt only need gum boots but rather hip boots because information was so deep and assumingly odorous.

Yet the term dingbat as opposed to insinuating that people in the profession are arbitrarily putting out enough "stinky" information that you'd require hip boots is somehow offputting?

The overlords will have at it yet again...

[Mark Hennebury]

To the OP Eric, Can you survive in a custom woodwork business? sure, just like you can survive playing Russian roulette. But why would you try?

If you like woodworking, that's called a hobby.
If you like making money, that's a business, and there are a lot easier businesses to make money.

Just like some can survive Russian roulette, there are those the survive in custom woodworking, they are the special ones, that have all of the right ingredients: knowledge, skill, discipline, marketing skills, market niche, contacts, equipment, facility, location, right time, right place, and the ability to find a steady flow of paying customers. etc......

So the question that you have to ask yourself is...are you feeling lucky today.....

If you have a job working for someone else, you work 40 hours, you get paid for 40 hours.

You open your own shop, you work 40 hours, at least 20 of those wont be chargeable, doing other business stuff; meeting with customers, doing quotes, marketing, setting up your shop, picking up supplies, cleaning your washroom, sharpening and cleaning up etc..... the list is endless. Don't forget customers from hell, and jobs from hell.

So on top of having to charge double what you got paid at your job you also have to pay for your shop, machinery, tools materials, supplies, insurance, utilities etc.. and job screw-ups and damages and broken machinery etc..

So based on that give me a quote for two custom made chairs similar to the photo, i can buy them for about $250 a piece, so i would buy them from you if you can do them cheaper and to my design.

391232

[John Sincerbeaux]

When i was in college, i worked for a successful cabinet maker in LA. He did amazing work, had about ten employees, and was always busy. But, he apparently got burnt out, sold his business and became a LA county Fireman. Ill never forget what he told me. He said he now had a state-funded pension, health care, and worked only 10 days a month.

What no one seems to ever mention in this conversation is pension? I wonder how many independent woodworkers are actually building a retirement portfolio for their future?

[Martin Wasner]

I didn't know this was a safe space....

Haha, right!?

[Martin Wasner]

What no one seems to ever mention in this conversation is pension? I wonder how many independent woodworkers are actually building a retirement portfolio for their future?

I currently own one rental property that my cabinet shop leases from me. In a few years I'm going to put up another building to lease out. If I survive that, I'm going to probably buy more space in another town.

Money is the easy part if you have a mildly successful business to leap off of.

Cabinet/wood shops aren't worth anything as a business. Equipment will pull 25% of it's replacement value at auction, (or less). All you're left with is the real estate so you better be doing something smart to prepare for the future.

[Darcy Warner]

I plan on selling my prescription drugs when I get old, or just work until I die.

[Martin Wasner]

Oh sure, take the easy route

[andy bessette]

...open your own shop, you work 40 hours, at least 20 of those wont be chargeable...

That was my point...starting out, one should not expect to make a killing on every hour worked. And, to bring in business and develop a reputation and clientele, one might have to underbid some other hungry woodworkers. The hourly rate you wind up getting, to start, will wind up being whatever it is, not some fantastic number pulled from thin air. Once you are established and your fixed expenses are being paid, then you can get picky about only accepting the most profitable jobs.

The custom woodworker, working for himself, gets no pension beyond his investments and what he might sell his business for. It's not for everyone.

[Darcy Warner]

That was my point...starting out, one should not expect to make a killing on every hour worked. And, to bring in business and develop a reputation and clientele, one might have to underbid some other hungry woodworkers. The hourly rate you wind up getting, to start, will wind up being whatever it is, not some fantastic number pulled from thin air. Once you are established and your fixed expenses are being paid, then you can get picky about only accepting the most profitable jobs.

The custom woodworker, working for himself, gets no pension beyond his investments and what he might sell his business for. It's not for everyone.

Sounds great, it's what most people think you should do, it's also why so many don't last very long.
I like making money, not owning a job.

[Mark Bolton]

That was my point...starting out, one should not expect to make a killing on every hour worked. And, to bring in business and develop a reputation and clientele, one might have to underbid some other hungry woodworkers. The hourly rate you wind up getting, to start, will wind up being whatever it is, not some fantastic number pulled from thin air. Once you are established and your fixed expenses are being paid, then you can get picky about only accepting the most profitable jobs.

The custom woodworker, working for himself, gets no pension beyond his investments and what he might sell his business for. It's not for everyone.

This is where your lost. The numbers in this thread are not arbitrarily pulled from thin air. Read any SBA publication. There are bare minimums to.merely breathe air in business all of which are likely more than you think your under bids can afford. And it's been stated in this thread yet conveniently ignored. You dont get work by under bidding. Period. You get work by delivering.

[Chris Fournier]

$100/hour? Go ahead and be honest about the time it will take to design, procure materials, build, finish, install/deliver and bill out the job. Show your client that quote and move on to your next quote! You are now in the quoting business at $0.00/hour. $100/hour which I have indeed made in my shop was NEVER EVER on custom work but on production work that I had refined in process and knocked out in batches - scales of economy. $100/hour is a commercial contract rate when you have it right, work done for a corporate client. And even then you are knocking it out of the park. In my opinion, if you tell me that you are getting $100.00/hour woodworking you are not being honest about your time on the job.

Just like everyone I interview for a job these days and I ask them how much they expect to make - $100K. 22 years old to 65 years old. Car business. Simple fact: we all are delusional about what we want to make $$$. And our financial reality confirms this.

[Darcy Warner]

I have customers I bill by the hour. Its half what I pay my attorney, I think 250.00hr for him is a deal.

[andy bessette]

I have customers I bill by the hour. Its half what I pay my attorney, I think 250.00hr for him is a deal.

What specific type of custom woodwork are you billing at $125/hr?

[Darcy Warner]

What specific type of custom woodwork are you billing at $125/hr?

Reproduction millwork and architectural millwork repair.

[Patrick Walsh]

In my area “metropolitan north east” going shop rate starts at $75..

Does that mean every job the boss is making $75 hr straight up for produced work. No way as mentioned the trash needs to be taken out, lumber racks filled, bathroom cleaned, mistakes and changes to projects that can’t be charged resolved. Driving here there and everywhere. That does not account for bids meetings with clients paying the bills or a million other things.

I just build the stuff and this is what I see. Looks like a pretty hard way to make a living to me. I think there is a good chance I out earn my boss with all my overtime. I’d take working hourly as a custom cabinet maker woodworker any day over being the boss.

It’s 24/7 for my boss and a huge amount of stress to keep it all under wraps, work coming in, work going out, bills paid, debts collected and enough overhead to keep it all going when cash flow is low. I know he has a huge credit line, like huge and often has to use it all. I’m always paid on time thanks to this credit line.

Anyway I’m sure I’ll work till the day I die and unless he has some plan bigger than what he is currently doeing he will to. Well his wife will collect a nice pension so there’s that. Most custom woodworkers I know also have some kind of back story that allowed for money not being the most important aspect of their existence. In most cases it’s a wife or parent.

[Larry Edgerton]

In my area “metropolitan north east” going shop rate starts at $75..

Does that mean every job the boss is making $75 hr straight up for produced work. No way as mentioned the trash needs to be taken out, lumber racks filled, bathroom cleaned, mistakes and changes to projects that can’t be charged resolved. Driving here there and everywhere. That does not account for bids meetings with clients paying the bills or a million other things.

I just build the stuff and this is what I see. Looks like a pretty hard way to make a living to me. I think there is a good chance I out earn my boss with all my overtime. I’d take working hourly as a custom cabinet maker woodworker any day over being the boss.

It’s 24/7 for my boss and a huge amount of stress to keep it all under wraps, work coming in, work going out, bills paid, debts collected and enough overhead to keep it all going when cash flow is low. I know he has a huge credit line, like huge and often has to use it all. I’m always paid on time thanks to this credit line.

Anyway I’m sure I’ll work till the day I die and unless he has some plan bigger than what he is currently doeing he will to. Well his wife will collect a nice pension so there’s that. Most custom woodworkers I know also have some kind of back story that allowed for money not being the most important aspect of their existence. In most cases it’s a wife or parent.

Patrick, what I would not give for an employee that can see what you see!

The premier builder around here is Jeff Ford. Nice fellow, does exceptional work, and can charge basically whatever he wants. But his backstory is in his name.

I plan on working till noon on the day of my funeral.

[Larry Edgerton]

That was my point...starting out, one should not expect to make a killing on every hour worked. And, to bring in business and develop a reputation and clientele, one might have to underbid some other hungry woodworkers. The hourly rate you wind up getting, to start, will wind up being whatever it is, not some fantastic number pulled from thin air. Once you are established and your fixed expenses are being paid, then you can get picky about only accepting the most profitable jobs.

The custom woodworker, working for himself, gets no pension beyond his investments and what he might sell his business for. It's not for everyone.

For what its worth I agree. When you start out you are inefficient because of your tool selection and experience. The value of the end product does not go up because you are inefficient, your hourly rate goes down by necessity. As you add tools that speed up the work, the price of the product stays the same but the amount that you produce in an hour goes up, so the wage follows minus the amortization of the equipment involved.

And then if you are an idiot like me that hates production work it gets even tougher. I'm always learning new things and do not feel it is fair to the customer to charge them for my lack of knowledge or tools. For example I just did a series of free form tables and the first table took me three times as long as the last. I knocked back the hours on the first one when I billed out because in good conscience I feel it was my shortcoming that caused the time to be so high, not the customers. So I adjusted, I feel good, they are happy and I still make a good living. And, more important to me, I got to try something I had never done.