Sharpening for chisels and planes

[Greg Parrish]

With my new Lie-Nielson planes showing up and a handful of their chisels on the way, I’ve been reading about sharpening stones till I’m dizzy. I have a tormek with jigs but think I probably need flat stones for the best edge.

Are the Shapton glass stones best? Something like this setup? https://robcosman.com/collections/sharpening/products/sharpening-apprentice-kit

The Lie-Nielson site looks to use a 1,000, 3,000, 10,000 setup in their sharpening video for their honing guide. Are these the best approach?
https://www.lie-nielsen.com/product/blade-sharpening/blade-sharpening-ohishi-waterstones-?node=4203


just trying to pin down something and was thinking of maybe combining ideas from the two with a trend 300/1,000 diamond plate to sharpen at 1,000 and to flatten stones at 300 and combine it with the Ohishi 3,000/10,000 stone from LN.

I did search but again it makes my head swirl trying to figure out best route for my really nice new tools. any thoughts? Thanks.

[David Bassett]

At its core sharpening is just removing the dull parts of the steel. Any of the options you mention should work fine, but while the Shapton Glass stones have their fans they are usually considered an expensive option (with high cost per mm of thickness.)

The issue the L-N blades have, with some stones, is that some abrasives won't effectively cut the hard carbides in A-2 steel. The "gentler" abrasives tend to be found in natural stones and until / unless you open that Pandora's box shouldn't really come into play.

Since your blades are on the way and his service can be very slow, I hesitate to mention Stu's, at Tools from Japan, Sigma Set (https://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=335_404_403&products_id=1667&zenid=578ae7bdca3406d204a4aa0a17928bc9) and Budget Solution (http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=335_405_583_585&products_id=2055), but they are well respected and great values.

One other thing you will need with stones, especially water stones, is a way to flatten them. This can be as inexpensive as drywall screen on a flat surface (messy!) or the frequently preferred diamond flattening plate. Atoma is the most common plate I see recommended, but almost any option has it's fans. One (currently out of stock :( ) option I think is the best tradeoff of price & quality is Jon at Japanese Knife Imports Diamond Flattening Plate (https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/sharpening-accessories/products/diamond-flattening-plate)

[Luke Dupont]

With my new Lie-Nielson planes showing up and a handful of their chisels on the way, I’ve been reading about sharpening stones till I’m dizzy. I have a tormek with jigs but think I probably need flat stones for the best edge.

Are the Shapton glass stones best? Something like this setup? https://robcosman.com/collections/sharpening/products/sharpening-apprentice-kit

The Lie-Nielson site looks to use a 1,000, 3,000, 10,000 setup in their sharpening video for their honing guide. Are these the best approach?
https://www.lie-nielsen.com/product/blade-sharpening/blade-sharpening-ohishi-waterstones-?node=4203


just trying to pin down something and was thinking of maybe combining ideas from the two with a trend 300/1,000 diamond plate to sharpen at 1,000 and to flatten stones at 300 and combine it with the Ohishi 3,000/10,000 stone from LN.

I did search but again it makes my head swirl trying to figure out best route for my really nice new tools. any thoughts? Thanks.

There is no best approach. Some people use sand paper. Some people like myself prefer oilstones. Some like man-made stones, some prefer natural stones. Some people use a guide, others prefer free-hand. There's pros and cons to each, of course.

For starters, I think your idea of a diamond plate and a single 3000/10000 grit waterstone is a good place to start. A good diamond plate is useful no matter what system you eventually go with, and is useful for getting things dead flat (as long as it comes flat itself).

My general advice is to learn initially with a coarse, quick cutting stone that stays flat. Try sharpening free-hand: it's not difficult and will give you the flexibility to sharpen all kinds of tools that won't fit in a jig -- not to mention allow you to use the whole surface of the stone. Don't fret too much about angle: your body will learn. Stay consistent and patiently work the bevel until you feel a burr. That indicates that you got down to the edge. Then flip back and forth between the bevel and the back and work off that burr gently to get a true cutting edge. That's the key to sharpening. Learn to get good geometry first. Then you can worry about polishing to higher grits and getting a sharper cutting edge. For a long time I just sharpened on a diamond stone and a loaded strop, or an India oilstone (about #400 grit) and a loaded strop. Both methods were very simple, quick, inexpensive, and gave me a very good edge.

That's just my take, though. I've never used a tormek. You might also prefer to use guides/jigs ultimately, and if their limitations don't bother you / they do everything you need, then that's perfectly fine.

[Luke Dupont]

At its core sharpening is just removing the dull parts of the steel. Any of the options you mention should work fine, but while the Shapton Glass stones have their fans they are usually considered an expensive option (with high cost per mm of thickness.)

The issue the L-N blades have, with some stones, is that some abrasives won't effectively cut the hard carbides in A-2 steel. The "gentler" abrasives tend to be found in natural stones and until / unless you open that Pandora's box shouldn't really come into play.


This is a really good point / thing to consider. I personally avoid such steels as I like to use natural stones -- both water and oil, and I prefer to be able to sharpen and repair edges easily if they get chipped or damaged. I don't mind trading a bit of edge retention for ease of sharpening (and the ability to use my favourite stones). I also think it's easier to learn to sharpen on softer steels.

But, those are purely personal opinions, and if you already purchased tools on the harder side don't worry about it: you'll have some excellent tools and just need to find a system that will work with them.

Diamonds will cut just about anything. I don't know anything about which synthetic waterstones are good/bad for hard steels, but I'm sure more knowledgeable people can offer you some good suggestions.

[Greg Parrish]

Thanks guys. I guess I’ll stick with the water stone LN sells and recommends and go the route of picking up that 300/1000 Trend diamond plate to use as my 1,000 and the 300 to flatten the 3000/10,000 stone.

I already ordered the LN hone guide with the chisels as it just looks too easy to use for bench chisels at least. I’m sure over time I’ll get the hang of free hand sharpening too. By then I’m sure like all my other tools my sharpen stones will refine themselves too.

[Andrew Hughes]

Greg nothing wrong with what ever you pick. The time you spend mastering your setup will soon enough make you a expert.
The Tormek is a good machine because the hollow grind makes freehand easy.
Sharpening threads are ego driven because everyone’s right :eek:

[Chet R Parks]

Here's what I do. Tormek with 10 inch, 800 grit CBN wheel, to 1200 DMT diamond plate, to Spyderco super fine stone. BTW I don't think you can go wrong with the new SE-77 jig for the Tormek. As always YMMV but I'm vary satisfied.
Chet

[Stewie Simpson]

At its core sharpening is just removing the dull parts of the steel. Any of the options you mention should work fine, but while the Shapton Glass stones have their fans they are usually considered an expensive option (with high cost per mm of thickness.)

The issue the L-N blades have, with some stones, is that some abrasives won't effectively cut the hard carbides in A-2 steel. The "gentler" abrasives tend to be found in natural stones and until / unless you open that Pandora's box shouldn't really come into play.

Since your blades are on the way and his service can be very slow, I hesitate to mention Stu's, at Tools from Japan, Sigma Set (https://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=335_404_403&products_id=1667&zenid=578ae7bdca3406d204a4aa0a17928bc9) and Budget Solution (http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=335_405_583_585&products_id=2055), but they are well respected and great values.

One other thing you will need with stones, especially water stones, is a way to flatten them. This can be as inexpensive as drywall screen on a flat surface (messy!) or the frequently preferred diamond flattening plate. Atoma is the most common plate I see recommended, but almost any option has it's fans. One (currently out of stock :( ) option I think is the best tradeoff of price & quality is Jon at Japanese Knife Imports Diamond Flattening Plate (https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/sharpening-accessories/products/diamond-flattening-plate)


David raises a very valid point regarding the Shapton Ceramic GlassStones.

Size

The Shapton GlassStone measures 210mm x 70mm x 10.5mm. This is approximately 8-1/4" x 2-3/4" x 3/8". Each GlassStone is 10.5mm in total thickness with 5mm ceramic sharpening matrix and 5mm glass backing plate. This size is a good size for sharpening most tools and knives.


https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Assets/Images/SHGL_1.jpg

What is a GlassStone?

The stone itself is not made of glass. The ceramic sharpening matrix is actually white. The glass is only on the bottom of the stone to serve as a base. The grit and micron equivalents are marked on the underside of the stone and visible through the glass side for easy identification.


The blue line represents stone consumed.

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/020711_1709_Waterstonet27.png

[Greg Parrish]

Wow, if I interpret that graph correctly the shapton pro japan is the better buy, no?

[Stewie Simpson]

Wow, if I interpret that graph correctly the shapton pro japan is the better buy, no?

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/020711_1709_Waterstonet27.png

So, what does this bunch of squiggly lines actually represent?
The blue line is the amount of stone ‘used up’ during the white steel test. The stones are ranked from left to right on how much of themselves they gave up in the quest for knowledge.
The red line is the number of follow up strokes on the #5000 Naniwa Superstone to get the polish to the edge.
The green line is how broad the polish on the bevel was once it touched the very edge (represented as a percentage).
Now, the blue line goes up, as you’d expect it to. What’s interesting is not on the left half of the graph when looking at the green line, but what’s happening on the right side of the graph. From the left, the green line is very predictable. Blue goes up only slowly, green stays right up there, reflecting that the amount of stone consumed for those stones was low, and that naturally the level of dishing on the stone/rounding of the bevel was also low. The small deviation up there isn’t something you’d notice in day to day sharpening, so on the left, yes these stones “stay flat”.
As the graph shows, it is obvious that using up more stone translates into dishing and bevel rounding, until you hit the very end of the graph with the Sigma Select II and King Neo. These two stones had a significant amount of their life taken away (actually less than a percentage point, but still significant!) but not that much dishing evident. In the case of the Sigma, actually very little dishing was observed, and if these stones were graded on observed bevel rounding, they would be much closer to the left side of the graph.
Why?
Simple, the Sigma Select II and King Neo are intended for very tough, abrasion resistant steels, such as High Speed Steel (HSS) and Stainless Steel (SS) respectively. Because the white steel chisel did not offer a challenge to them, they got the job done incredibly quickly, before they could dish to a significant degree. So while they may feel soft, and are comparatively soft, they might not be able to effectively resist dishing ,like the much harder ceramic type stones, but they are able to ward off dishing by getting the job done fast.
Another fly in the ointment is the King Hyper. While it sits solidly on the right side of the graph, the amount of observed dishing and follow up strokes is quite low. Why is that? Again, there’s a logical explanation.
The King Hyper is made of similar stuff as the hard, ceramic stones but in a softer binder so it does ‘spend’ itself to get the work done quickly. However, because the abrasive is quite tough and high quality, what’s being shed and left on the stone is still working very hard and not ‘spent’ as it might be if the abrasive used was less durable. So while the stone itself might be dished, the slurry is doing just as much as the abrasive still on the stone. A curious observation, and while it might not sound so impressive here and now, the implications are very interesting, especially for some of you out there reading this.
The King Deluxe lives up to its reputation of being soft and easily dished. No surprise there. The Sigma Oribest however fared very poorly, and the reason is that it’s of the same intention as the King Neo and Sigma Select II, but the binder is soft, maybe a little too soft. This does help it deal with very tough, hard steels but when pushed beyond its limits, it can’t keep up. A good stone if you need something that will work with tough steel, just don’t push it too hard, it will bite back.

If you prefer a stone that “will not dish,” stick to the stones on left side of the graph. If you prefer to get things done quickly, stick to the stones on the right. If none of this is important to you, throw a dart and pick the one it lands on.

Thanks again for reading, https://www.toolsfromjapan.com/wordpress/?p=756

[Greg Parrish]

Wow, thanks. Wealth of info. I bookmarked that page. Lots to read there.

As mentioned above I went ahead and ordered a starter set to get me practicing.

This in 3,000 / 10,000: https://www.lie-nielsen.com/product/blade-sharpening/blade-sharpening-ohishi-waterstones-?node=4203

This diamond plate from Trend in 300 b 1,000: https://www.trend-uk.com/en/US/product/U*DWS_CP8_FC/2/5/classic_pro_stone_finecoarse_8_inch_doublesided.ht ml


And this honing / lap fluid called Honeright Gold: https://www.amazon.com/STN-HRG250-Sharpening-Specifically-Formulated-Non-Corrosive/dp/B00F5XTWL0




that gives me a way to flatten the water stone and it gives me two mediums to work with and grits from 1,000 to 10,000. I’ll add on from here as needed as I go and learn more.

PS - I have a leather strop I picked up at woodcraft last month with an intermediate starter set of pfeil carving chisels. Forgot about it till now.

[Brandon Speaks]

There is no right or magic answer. Just remember the options available 20, 50, or 100 years ago. I like DMT diamond for some tasks, sand paper for others, and as much as I didnt want to like it I use a 6k grit water stone for others. The one items I will swear by is a strop for final polishing, I use pinewood forge strop and white gold honing compound, but there are many others that are good.

To be honest I really believe you can do a lot with a little in sharpening, and technique matters more than medium. I am no guro though

[Luke Dupont]

To be honest I really believe you can do a lot with a little in sharpening, and technique matters more than medium. I am no guro though

For fun, I like trying out different sharpening media, and I have to agree.

I even picked up a few random stones near a river, flattened them, and while they cut slowly, they managed to put a very nice edge on a knife.

Also had surprisingly good results with a particular $1 stone that I picked up at daiso, which cut way finer than its rated grit, but left a good edge. Could easily be used for all around general sharpening, though.

Granted, I don't use these to sharpen anything as I have better options. But it just goes to show that just about anything works.

Also, I second the strop advice. I find it the best / easiest / most cost efficient alternative to a finish stone. You can go straight from a very coarse stone such as an India or diamond stone to a strop loaded with chromium oxide.

[Greg Parrish]

I looked and the strop I picked up last month with my pfeil carvers is a flexcut knife strop like this: https://www.flexcut.com/home/product/pw14-flexcut-knife-strop

that going to work okay on chisels and planes too?

[Luke Dupont]

I looked and the strop I picked up last month with my pfeil carvers is a flexcut knife strop like this: https://www.flexcut.com/home/product/pw14-flexcut-knife-strop

that going to work okay on chisels and planes too?

As long as it has a hard backing to keep it from flexing too much it will work just fine. I generally just buy leather scraps and glue them to a piece of wood.

[Stewie Simpson]

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/020711_1709_Waterstonet27.png

The following shows the Sigma Power Hard Ceramic Stones after sharpening a W1 plane iron to 13000 grit.

Note; to achieve a fair and reasonable comparison on the resulting wear patterns on each grit stone, the removal of the wear bevel on the back of the iron, and re-establishing the flat primary bevel were both completed on a flat glass bed of #220 then #400 grit alum oxide sandpaper, prior to using the ceramic stones. The ceramic stones also received a full flattened with the diamond flattening stone prior to working the iron.


http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/ceramic%20stone%20wear/DSC_0109_zpsbl6delih.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/ceramic%20stone%20wear/DSC_0109_zpsbl6delih.jpg.html)

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/ceramic%20stone%20wear/DSC_0110_zpsi3sjofi3.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/ceramic%20stone%20wear/DSC_0110_zpsi3sjofi3.jpg.html)

The ceramic stones then received a quick scrub before being marked with a pencil to highlight the level of flatness after working the top surface of each stone with the diamond flattening stone.

The final photo shows the results after 12 strokes of diamond flattening stone on each stone. #400, #1000, #6000, #13000.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/ceramic%20stone%20wear/DSC_0111_zpsfssmutfj.jpg
(http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/ceramic%20stone%20wear/DSC_0111_zpsfssmutfj.jpg.html)
http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/ceramic%20stone%20wear/DSC_0112_zpspbkh78ya.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/ceramic%20stone%20wear/DSC_0112_zpspbkh78ya.jpg.html)

[Jessica de Boer]

I have heard positive things about that Sigma 13000 stone but I wonder what kind of edge it produces compared to a natural stone? I've always found the edge a very high grit synthetic produces to be very transient but maybe this stone is different.

[Greg Parrish]

Stewie, thanks for the detailed info but I’m not sure how to take the results. I see that they didn’t completely flatten which shows stone wear, but I don’t have anything experience wise to compare that to. I’m assuming it is a sample of good stones, right? Also What flatten plate are you using?

Thank you very much. Please Keep sharing. I’ll start to put 2 and 2 together as I get more experience with stone sharpening.

[Robert Engel]

Take a look at this (https://www.chefknivestogo.com/ckcodipl40.html). Looks identical to a Trend

[Greg Parrish]

Hmmmm. Only difference I see is the trend doesn’t have the lines on the 1,000 side. Regardless I bookmarked it for later.

[Stewie Simpson]

Greg; the results confirm that the coarser grit stones within the Sigma Power range have a higher susceptibility to abrasive wear than their finer grit stones.

The diamond plate I am using is the Atoma #400.

Stewie;

[Brandon Speaks]

As long as it has a hard backing to keep it from flexing too much it will work just fine. I generally just buy leather scraps and glue them to a piece of wood.

Yes the flexcut is fine. When I bought my pinewood forge strop for my carving tools I moved my flexcut to my sharpening station for chisels and planes. Their compound is a little hard for my taste and I have to warm it up a little to get it to apply how I want. I still use it though.

[Stewie Simpson]

I have heard positive things about that Sigma 13000 stone but I wonder what kind of edge it produces compared to a natural stone? I've always found the edge a very high grit synthetic produces to be very transient but maybe this stone is different.

Jessica; below are the specs supplied by Stu on the #13000 Sigma Power stone.


Sigma power ceramic stone #13000 (no base)

Sigma Power ceramic stones are not easily found outside Japan, but that does not mean they do not have an enviable reputation around the world for being something 'above average'.

Designed for sharpening blades of greater tenacity than standard carbon-steel alloys, they remove metal rapidly while staying relatively flat and dish free.

This #13,000 grit stone measures 205x75x25mm and is supplied without a base.

[Phil Mueller]

Thank you Stewie for all the info (and time!) you have provided on this thread. Very informative.

[Vincent Tai]

I have heard positive things about that Sigma 13000 stone but I wonder what kind of edge it produces compared to a natural stone? I've always found the edge a very high grit synthetic produces to be very transient but maybe this stone is different.

Very nice durable edge. Though I've never had a problem with edge life off any high grit synthetic. the Sigma 13000 is definitely one of my favourites along with my two Jnat finish stones. The Lee Valley Sigma 13000 Power Select II ceramic is the same as the Sigma 13000 Power ceramic stone you can get on Stu's site, if you take a look the 13000 is the same for both available lines on Stu's site. Might be faster getting it from LV. The edge off of the 13000 is very nice to feel. It is a fast finisher and even though I've used mine plenty and for a few years I still have a good bit of stone left. If you lose control of your tool and dig it in or raise it and dig it in the stone can be gouged. I've had nothing disastrous happen in terms of that and I suspect it will be hard to do more than minor annoyance and cosmetic damage. The Shapton equivalents are a lot harder but the Sigma 13000 is my preference. The softness has not bothered me even with my appreciation for my very hard Ozuku.

[glenn bradley]

Hmmmm. Only difference I see is the trend doesn’t have the lines on the 1,000 side. Regardless I bookmarked it for later.

The only thing I can add is my experience. I have not had a Trend diamond product last for beans when compared to DMT products I have that have lasted years. All of my Trend products either wore out or were returned. Your mileage may vary.

[Jessica de Boer]

I found the 13000 on global rakuten for just €67,50, that's cheaper than toolsfromjapan or Lee Valley. I might just order it for that price.

@Vincent Tai: Do you use it to sharpen Japanese blades? What kind of finish does it produce, it is highly polished or is there a nice contrast between the hard and soft steel?

[Vincent Tai]

I found the 13000 on global rakuten for just €67,50, that's cheaper than toolsfromjapan or Lee Valley. I might just order it for that price.

@Vincent Tai: Do you use it to sharpen Japanese blades? What kind of finish does it produce, it is highly polished or is there a nice contrast between the hard and soft steel?

I do often use it on Japanese blades, laminated blades. It is an interesting stone for these laminated tools, at first there is an almost kasumi type finish; the hagane is mirror polished but the jigane is contrasted, the abrasive seems aggressive enough to just cut the jigane differently. I often go through a couple or three synthetic stones quickly ending with the Sigma 13000 (touch ups) when mortising for a long time with Japanese chisels and I can clearly see the definition of the lamination. Natural stones have it beat out by far though. But if you spend enough time on the stone then it will polish up the whole bevel and produce that garish look. Often if you are sharpening up a kanna for the finish planing you can see the jigane just transitioning into the mirror polish stage. I woke up this morning and stumbled down into my shop to get a couple chisels ready and having read your questions I decided to see how long it would take for the 13000 abrasives to break down and polish the jigane; a couple minutes later I could still see the lamination somewhat but it was a pretty garish sight. Very polished. However it was sharp enough for any task a couple minutes earlier without the excess polishing and without the garishness. I think on tools with bigger bevels (Kiridashi) it might be hard to avoid the polish. I suppose the speed at which it does its work makes up for the possibility of excess polish in a laminated tool, and the speed also prevents over polish if you catch yourself.

Jessica, can you share that global rakuten link somehow? If the forum doesn't allow a link in the thread I would very much appreciate a PM with the link, my Google fu is no match for this site. At that price I might snap up a couple at the end of the year and be set for a while. I'll inevitably have to scratch the itch and get many more stones in the upcoming years but I really like the sigma 13000.

Thanks,

Vince

[Jessica de Boer]

I will post the link here and we'll see what the admins want to do.
https://global.rakuten.com/en/store/kokoya51/item/10372/?l-id=rgm_search_en_rvp_widget
I'm lucky because I know someone in Japan who can buy it for me and then send it to me. If you're not so lucky you would have to use a forwarding service or proxy buyer and that will probably negate the price difference.

[Chris Parks]

It may surprise some but a lot of Japanese don't use stones at all but Silicon Carborundum Powder on a metal substrate, there are some YT videos showing this and a friend of mine recently did a course where he was shown this method so I decided to have a play and see what happens. I do my sharpening free hand so if you use a jig you might find this method a bit difficult to deal with.

I obtained an old worn brake rotor from a car, it is cast iron, cost nothing and my son happens to have a brake lathe at his work so he machined it for me both sides. I then hollow ground a few blades on a 180 CBN wheel and using some 240 powder wet it into a paste, water, oil, light grease whatever you fancy will do for that. The beauty of this system is it is progressive in grit size as you work, it starts at 240 or whatever powder is chosen and as you continue to sharpen it breaks down to a finer grit the more you keep going and you can hear it happening. You want a 20,000 finish, just keep sharpening and that is what you get. My friend was told to keep at it until the powder turned white and then instantly stop but he was using water where I used some oil so I don't know if the same criteria works.

After I thought I had taken it far enough I stropped using green compound on a piece of MDF and it certainly is at least as sharp as any of my previous methods and I do use Stu's three stones or some Shapton glass stones to compare it to. Total cost was less than five dollars including the fuel to pick up the rotors and no mucking around with progressive stone grits into the bargain. I will pre mix some powder/oil so as to speed things up a little. I can't think of another way to sharpen a blade for less money and less mucking around.

[Jessica de Boer]

Stanley Covington recently told me about an experiment that was done at a university in Japan on a convex vs a flat bevel. They found it's faster to sharpen a flat bevel and there was no noticeable difference in edge retention. The bevels on my chisels have always been convex so I decided to see if I can get them completely flat or at least very close to flat. I found it impossible to create a truly flat bevel by freehand sharpening them but I'm very close. My bevels still have a tiny bit of convexity, maybe 0.25mm but I have already noticed a difference in speed of sharpening. It's now much easier to erase the scratch marks of the previous stone as I work my way up in grit size. I have ordered a Richard Kell Nr.2 honing guide and my plan is now to do the initial sharpening with the guide on the coarse grits to create a flat bevel (and keep it flat), and do the finer grits freehand. I'm also going to make a block with several stops so I can easily set the distance I need for my oire, usu and atsu nomis.

[Chris Parks]

Stanley Covington recently told me about an experiment that was done at a university in Japan on a convex vs a flat bevel. They found it's faster to sharpen a flat bevel and there was no noticeable difference in edge retention. The bevels on my chisels have always been convex so I decided to see if I can get them completely flat or at least very close to flat. I found it impossible to create a truly flat bevel by freehand sharpening them but I'm very close. My bevels still have a tiny bit of convexity, maybe 0.25mm but I have already noticed a difference in speed of sharpening. It's now much easier to erase the scratch marks of the previous stone as I work my way up in grit size. I have ordered a Richard Kell Nr.2 honing guide and my plan is now to do the initial sharpening with the guide on the coarse grits to create a flat bevel (and keep it flat), and do the finer grits freehand. I'm also going to make a block with several stops so I can easily set the distance I need for my oire, usu and atsu nomis.

Jessica, how did you measure the .25mm or even detect it?

[Vincent Tai]

It may surprise some but a lot of Japanese don't use stones at all but Silicon Carborundum Powder on a metal substrate, there are some YT videos showing this and a friend of mine recently did a course where he was shown this method so I decided to have a play and see what happens. I do my sharpening free hand so if you use a jig you might find this method a bit difficult to deal with.

I obtained an old worn brake rotor from a car, it is cast iron, cost nothing and my son happens to have a brake lathe at his work so he machined it for me both sides. I then hollow ground a few blades on a 180 CBN wheel and using some 240 powder wet it into a paste, water, oil, light grease whatever you fancy will do for that. The beauty of this system is it is progressive in grit size as you work, it starts at 240 or whatever powder is chosen and as you continue to sharpen it breaks down to a finer grit the more you keep going and you can hear it happening. You want a 20,000 finish, just keep sharpening and that is what you get. My friend was told to keep at it until the powder turned white and then instantly stop but he was using water where I used some oil so I don't know if the same criteria works.

After I thought I had taken it far enough I stropped using green compound on a piece of MDF and it certainly is at least as sharp as any of my previous methods and I do use Stu's three stones or some Shapton glass stones to compare it to. Total cost was less than five dollars including the fuel to pick up the rotors and no mucking around with progressive stone grits into the bargain. I will pre mix some powder/oil so as to speed things up a little. I can't think of another way to sharpen a blade for less money and less mucking around.

Chris, I know of the use of Kanaban (flattening plate) with silicon carbide abrasive powder as a way to flatten and somewhat pre polish tool backs. This is fast and somewhat gets rid of the problem of water stones going out of flat too quickly and affecting the tool back. I can see the possibility of some bevel work with the kanaban but not as a mainstream thing in Japan. All the YT vids I know of that show the use of the Kanaban also show instructors or the craftsman go to their water stones and work the backs some more and make a point of establishing good bevels and a nice finish with diamond and waterstones (videos by the tracestudy channel etc). So do the various craftsmen and smiths I follow on social media. I have heard whispers but unconfirmed of using the method you've mentioned as a way to sharpen in Japan. I hesitate to accept that a lot of Japanese don't use stones and use this method, but then the world is pretty big. I may very well be hopelessly ignorant. Do you have any info on the course (Japanese course?) or it's teacher? I always like going to read about this sort of thing.

I think I have seen one video of the making of a kanna where in the rough bevel shaping stages after hardening and some adjustments a jig and SC powder on plate setup was used to flatten the bevel. The blade was then worked again on the back with the plate and then run through the usual progression of water stones.

I did briefly experiment with SC grit and some other powdered stuff on a substrate as a sharpening method, this was in junior high before I really got into hand tools. I really didn't like it. I was also oblivious to what good sharpening technique was so a lot of it was probably newbie influenced. A certain odd rounding bevel technique I had watched wasn't helping either. I didn't know of hollow grinding then but even now with most of my western tools hollow ground off a CBN setup running them quickly through 3 stones in a few seconds is more attractive an option to me. I still like SC grit and diamond compounds for lapping or putting silky finishes on steel.

I can see the possibility of some Japanese folks doing this but then I would have to suspect that they would go and source out abrasive powders or compounds that are pre sized (diamond paste, lapping compound, varying SC grit sizes), The possibility of errant 240 particles of abrasive not broken down is high and it takes time to really actually break things down. Truly uniformly breaking them down would also be a challenge that gets bigger when you think of the range between 240 and 10000 grit, even the allowance of five microns of range is pretty big and very noticeable. There is a reason why there are varying lower grits of silicon carbide (and diamond compound) are sold (up to a point) and then many different micron sized diamond lapping compounds to follow. Sometimes a bit of a war appears in the machinist world when someone demoing hand lapping uses different compounds on the same plate. A system of three diamond pastes or varying silicon carbide grits plus a lower base silicon carbide grit for rougher material removal seems less mucking about and hoping that an errant bunch of silicon carbide particles doesn't force you to stay awhile trying to break them down. A few plates and a few seconds on each with a hollow ground blade seems like a quick and somewhat low maintenance setup. Get 4 brake rotors and you'll have the rough grind plate, and the three others can be equivalent to the usual 1000 - middle something maybe 4000 - whatever finish you want. They'll stay that way as long as you have a bit of powder or compound and you'll never wrack your brains over needing to do 120# work but also lots of 4000# polishing. Hollow ground blades seem particularly well suited for this sort go application but the traditional Japanese tool with its flat wide bevel and lots of mild steel or wrought iron might take some more effort and I suspect a more liberal dash of powder as the big portion jigane abrades readily and breaks down the SC faster without fresh abrasives being released like in a stone. I suppose these sort of methods have been long used in the west with stores like LV supplying everything for a quick setup like the one above. TFWW supplies some paste too I think. DMT sells them online I bet and the machinists plus rest of the vast internet will have plenty of suitable compounds and powder. So again I can see the possibility of many Japanese using a similar system for sharpening not just some flattening work but I haven't seen actual cases of this just a whisper or someone writing about something like it vaguely.

Vince

[Jessica de Boer]

I used a small ruler and placed it on the bevel to see how flat it was. There was a tiny bit of room between the ruler and the bevel at the beginning and the end of the bevel. Another thing I noticed is that the soft steel of my Japanese blades is now a completely even light grey whereas before it was a bit blotchy.

Edit: A good friend introduced me to Stan Covington and I'm so glad he did. I love the oire nomis he recommended me. They're very hard (harder than the Kikuhiromarus I used to have) and tough and very close to my father's Ichihiro oire nomis.

[Vincent Tai]

Stanley Covington recently told me about an experiment that was done at a university in Japan on a convex vs a flat bevel. They found it's faster to sharpen a flat bevel and there was no noticeable difference in edge retention. The bevels on my chisels have always been convex so I decided to see if I can get them completely flat or at least very close to flat. I found it impossible to create a truly flat bevel by freehand sharpening them but I'm very close. My bevels still have a tiny bit of convexity, maybe 0.25mm but I have already noticed a difference in speed of sharpening. It's now much easier to erase the scratch marks of the previous stone as I work my way up in grit size. I have ordered a Richard Kell Nr.2 honing guide and my plan is now to do the initial sharpening with the guide on the coarse grits to create a flat bevel (and keep it flat), and do the finer grits freehand. I'm also going to make a block with several stops so I can easily set the distance I need for my oire, usu and atsu nomis.

Jessica; good to hear Stan still spreading knowledge. Better yet that it's reaching us. Thanks for that. I've always found it to be illogical that purposefully removing more metal and rounding the bevel and making a bigger area to abrade for the sake of abrading it was suppose to be faster or easier. This sort of business would definitely really hamper with the Hagane-Jigane relationship that is already self jigging but very different in hardness. You're getting a lot flatter bevels then me, I need to really put in a few weeks of intensive woodworking and sharpening and try to get near; metalworking has taken up the vast majority of my recent hours and I fear my paltry skills for woodworking and true flat bevel sharpening gets weaker each day. Some days I wonder how on earth am I going to become a professional maker the way I'm stumbling about this world yet to make a single item fit for sale. Yikes TMI and ranting, symptoms of sleep deprivation. Moving on; the Richard Kell No2 looks nice and much more manageable then No 1 with the small original rollers. Rob Pocaro generously gave me a No 1 for free when I bought his shapton set a while ago and it was pretty invaluable when I set up my Kikuhiromaru chisels, the smaller sizes had bevels ground askew slightly and an eclipse style jig and the MKII original had no chance of working. It was painfully slow going though with the Kell No1 as there was just this perfect storm of angle and roller size plus its general size which meant I couldn't really hold it well with and it wanted to vibrate starting at the top of the chisel handle if I applied heavier pressure when grinding on a diamond plate. I think the No2 may escape that with its tweaks and proportions. the usual block with stops used for Eclipse style jigs won't work for the Kell guide; you'll know why as soon as you look at the guide and then the block. I just realized you probably knew that. I think I'll stop my incoherent typing. I should stay off the internet at night and go try and get some chisels balancing on their bevel on a stone instead. Please let us know how you like the No2 in use with your various Japanese chisels.

Thanks,

Vince

[Chris Parks]

Chris, I know of the use of Kanaban (flattening plate) with silicon carbide abrasive powder as a way to flatten and somewhat pre polish tool backs. This is fast and somewhat gets rid of the problem of water stones going out of flat too quickly and affecting the tool back. I can see the possibility of some bevel work with the kanaban but not as a mainstream thing in Japan. All the YT vids I know of that show the use of the Kanaban also show instructors or the craftsman go to their water stones and work the backs some more and make a point of establishing good bevels and a nice finish with diamond and waterstones (videos by the tracestudy channel etc). So do the various craftsmen and smiths I follow on social media. I have heard whispers but unconfirmed of using the method you've mentioned as a way to sharpen in Japan. I hesitate to accept that a lot of Japanese don't use stones and use this method, but then the world is pretty big. I may very well be hopelessly ignorant. Do you have any info on the course (Japanese course?) or it's teacher? I always like going to read about this sort of thing.

I think I have seen one video of the making of a kanna where in the rough bevel shaping stages after hardening and some adjustments a jig and SC powder on plate setup was used to flatten the bevel. The blade was then worked again on the back with the plate and then run through the usual progression of water stones.

I did briefly experiment with SC grit and some other powdered stuff on a substrate as a sharpening method, this was in junior high before I really got into hand tools. I really didn't like it. I was also oblivious to what good sharpening technique was so a lot of it was probably newbie influenced. A certain odd rounding bevel technique I had watched wasn't helping either. I didn't know of hollow grinding then but even now with most of my western tools hollow ground off a CBN setup running them quickly through 3 stones in a few seconds is more attractive an option to me. I still like SC grit and diamond compounds for lapping or putting silky finishes on steel.

I can see the possibility of some Japanese folks doing this but then I would have to suspect that they would go and source out abrasive powders or compounds that are pre sized (diamond paste, lapping compound, varying SC grit sizes), The possibility of errant 240 particles of abrasive not broken down is high and it takes time to really actually break things down. Truly uniformly breaking them down would also be a challenge that gets bigger when you think of the range between 240 and 10000 grit, even the allowance of five microns of range is pretty big and very noticeable. There is a reason why there are varying lower grits of silicon carbide (and diamond compound) are sold (up to a point) and then many different micron sized diamond lapping compounds to follow. Sometimes a bit of a war appears in the machinist world when someone demoing hand lapping uses different compounds on the same plate. A system of three diamond pastes or varying silicon carbide grits plus a lower base silicon carbide grit for rougher material removal seems less mucking about and hoping that an errant bunch of silicon carbide particles doesn't force you to stay awhile trying to break them down. A few plates and a few seconds on each with a hollow ground blade seems like a quick and somewhat low maintenance setup. Get 4 brake rotors and you'll have the rough grind plate, and the three others can be equivalent to the usual 1000 - middle something maybe 4000 - whatever finish you want. They'll stay that way as long as you have a bit of powder or compound and you'll never wrack your brains over needing to do 120# work but also lots of 4000# polishing. Hollow ground blades seem particularly well suited for this sort go application but the traditional Japanese tool with its flat wide bevel and lots of mild steel or wrought iron might take some more effort and I suspect a more liberal dash of powder as the big portion jigane abrades readily and breaks down the SC faster without fresh abrasives being released like in a stone. I suppose these sort of methods have been long used in the west with stores like LV supplying everything for a quick setup like the one above. TFWW supplies some paste too I think. DMT sells them online I bet and the machinists plus rest of the vast internet will have plenty of suitable compounds and powder. So again I can see the possibility of many Japanese using a similar system for sharpening not just some flattening work but I haven't seen actual cases of this just a whisper or someone writing about something like it vaguely.

Vince

Vince, I can't disagree with all you have written as I have only started in the last week to investigate the methods I have outlined so read my experience with that in mind. Using the SC powder I don't think takes all that long when the overall time taken to prepare and use stones is taken in total compared to putting a bit of powder on a piece of cast iron and starting to sharpen. I have not tried to use the method to flatten the back as at the moment I do not have the need so I can't comment on the result. To me it was all about seeing what happens and did it have the potential to sharpen a blade to quite a high standard and having dine only two blades the answer is a guarded yes. The simplicity of it and the extremely low cost for somebody just starting out was also a factor I wanted to explore as I think the subject is simply over complicated by all the experts who think the method they use is the world's best and every other method is a total waste of time. I have diamond paste here to further the experiment when I have finished with the SC powder. If I was pressed I would say bang for the buck SI powder is a winner as it costs next to nothing to set up.

One thing I did not make clear was that my experiment was on western chisels which is where this thread started.

[Derek Cohen]

Stanley Covington recently told me about an experiment that was done at a university in Japan on a convex vs a flat bevel. They found it's faster to sharpen a flat bevel and there was no noticeable difference in edge retention. The bevels on my chisels have always been convex so I decided to see if I can get them completely flat or at least very close to flat. I found it impossible to create a truly flat bevel by freehand sharpening them but I'm very close. My bevels still have a tiny bit of convexity, maybe 0.25mm but I have already noticed a difference in speed of sharpening. It's now much easier to erase the scratch marks of the previous stone as I work my way up in grit size. I have ordered a Richard Kell Nr.2 honing guide and my plan is now to do the initial sharpening with the guide on the coarse grits to create a flat bevel (and keep it flat), and do the finer grits freehand. I'm also going to make a block with several stops so I can easily set the distance I need for my oire, usu and atsu nomis.

Hi Jessica

I use mainly Koyamaichi for dovetails and joinery and Kiyohisa slicks for paring. These are freehanded on the flat using Shapton 1000 and Sigma 6000 and 13000. (These are treated differently from my Western chisels and plane blades which I hollow grind on a CBN wheel and may then use Spyderco Medium and UF, and finish on green compound on hardwood).

I have used all the honing guides and the Kell is one of my least favourite. It is difficult to set up and uncomfortable to hold, which affect control. The best honing guide for those that predominantly freehand sharpen (because it mimics freehand side sharpening), and was designed with Japanese blades in mind, is the Sharp Skate. I have Mk1, and reviewed this in 2007 (!). It was sent to me by the designer and seller, Harrelson Stanley. He still makes them - I think that they must be in Mark 5 by now - but you would need to Google for him and them.

Link to my (old) review: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/Side%20Sharpening%20and%20The%20Sharp%20Skate.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

Using SC powder and a flat plate is not uncommon but it’s my understanding that it is only for rough work.

[Luke Dupont]

Stanley Covington recently told me about an experiment that was done at a university in Japan on a convex vs a flat bevel. They found it's faster to sharpen a flat bevel and there was no noticeable difference in edge retention. The bevels on my chisels have always been convex so I decided to see if I can get them completely flat or at least very close to flat. I found it impossible to create a truly flat bevel by freehand sharpening them but I'm very close. My bevels still have a tiny bit of convexity, maybe 0.25mm but I have already noticed a difference in speed of sharpening. It's now much easier to erase the scratch marks of the previous stone as I work my way up in grit size. I have ordered a Richard Kell Nr.2 honing guide and my plan is now to do the initial sharpening with the guide on the coarse grits to create a flat bevel (and keep it flat), and do the finer grits freehand. I'm also going to make a block with several stops so I can easily set the distance I need for my oire, usu and atsu nomis.

How do you hold your chisels when sharpening? If I'm going for completely flat, I usually skew mine which helps a lot with rocking. It's easy to get dead flat that way -- flat enough, at least, that the bevel sticks to the stone via suction.

I actually like a tiny, tiny bit of roundedness to my bevel in order to combat that "suction" problem: a perfectly flat bevel can really stick to the stone and add a lot of friction.

I'm yet to ultimately decide whether I like convex versus flat bevels. I tend to sharpen my western tools with a slightly convex bevel, and my Japanese tools flat. For thin western plane irons, though, I don't see any benefit in trying to hold them perfectly flat or hollow grinding: a convex bevel is perfectly suited to thin bevels which don't offer a substantial registration face. The same applies to thin double bevel knives, such as gyuto.

[Jessica de Boer]

How do you hold your chisels when sharpening?

I hold them at the neck directly above the blade to keep the angle steady and I press down on the bevel with my left index finger. I also skew it to create a larger surface area that makes contact with the stone. How do you hold it?

[Luke Dupont]

I hold them at the neck directly above the blade to keep the angle steady and I press down on the bevel with my left index finger. I also skew it to create a larger surface area that makes contact with the stone. How do you hold it?

Ah, sounds like we hold it in exactly the same way.

It's probably not anything wrong with your technique -- just that it takes a while to get it completely flat. I'm sure the slight convexity will disappear in time, or if you go to a coarser stone.

I usually go to a coarse oil stone around 300-400 grit for such work. Diamond stones of similar grit will work too, but I find them to be slower and wear out on hard Japanese steels.

[Derek Cohen]

Alternating skew (diagonal) and side-to-side for most chisels. Fingers on leading (left) hand around the blade and pressing down on the bevel, and right hand guiding at the neck. The exception is when honing narrow chisels, say 1/4" and under. Then I press them flat and pull straight back, with the right hand lower down.

I am sure that there are as many variations as sharpening methods :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Kees Heiden]

Jessica; good to hear Stan still spreading knowledge. Better yet that it's reaching us. Thanks for that. I've always found it to be illogical that purposefully removing more metal and rounding the bevel and making a bigger area to abrade for the sake of abrading it was suppose to be faster or easier. [...]

Vince

Just to explain, I have no stick in this fight :D

The idea about the convex bevel is removing metal on a coarse stone that will have to be removed in the future anyway. And because you don't need much precision you can go at it at a more brisk speed, also quicker because the stone used is coarse. I don't know how that research was caried out (quoting just the conclusion of a research without the details of the methods used, leads often to wrong ideas). But when you start with a flat or concave bevel, then yes, a convex bevel will take more time because you need to remove more metal. But over a 100 sharpenings a convex bevel might well be quicker overall.

[Jessica de Boer]

It's probably not anything wrong with your technique -- just that it takes a while to get it completely flat.

The bevels are a tiny bit convex. I'm not sure making them dead flat will offer an additional significant improvement.


Diamond stones of similar grit will work too, but I find them to be slower and wear out on hard Japanese steels.

My father has been using Atoma plates since forever for his Ichihiros and they usually last him 4-5 years. Given that a replacement sheet is just 35-40 Euros I'd say that's very economical. And they actually get faster as the diamonds level out, especially the 400 and 600 grit plates.

[Vincent Tai]

Just to explain, I have no stick in this fight :D

The idea about the convex bevel is removing metal on a coarse stone that will have to be removed in the future anyway. And because you don't need much precision you can go at it at a more brisk speed, also quicker because the stone used is coarse. I don't know how that research was caried out (quoting just the conclusion of a research without the details of the methods used, leads often to wrong ideas). But when you start with a flat or concave bevel, then yes, a convex bevel will take more time because you need to remove more metal. But over a 100 sharpenings a convex bevel might well be quicker overall.

Hi Kees,
I know the thought process of it’s going to be removed so remove it anyways. I don’t agree with it because the extra effort to dip to round is wasted effort since this removal isn’t helping with anything; not promoting a self jig like a hollow grind, and it is repeated every time so there is no break or catchup of breathing air to allow the steel removed to act as a space for the actual cutting edge angle to expand to like it does in the normal honing guide world.

To clarify I also sharpen using convex bevels quite a bit, on thinner irons like the original Stanley’s. Often I am sharpening with two irons; one in each hand and going at a very brisk pace. I hold the irons at around 30 and go for it. Biased pressure when on fine stone. The convexity is not something I particularly aim for just a side effect. It is slight and even but noticeable. I do not have a problem with this sort of thing, I am nowhere near purist enough to. But when I see people dipping to 25-20-15 degrees and then coming back to 35 or more I scratch my head. Even 100 sharpenings later they will still be wasting effort and have wasted every single time. This continues right up to 40 years later until they can’t do this anymore because the chisel might be short enough for the handle to be in the way for the lowering to 15. The idea of it will be removed anyways so remove it now is negated when one dips to 15 degrees and remove this “excess” metal everytime; by the time the tool or owner has taken their last breadth there has been wasted effort. If you think about it, right up to the last bit of tool this is wasted effort. If someone promoted doing the rounding and then honing normally until the rounding is fading and repeat this that at least makes some sort of “catchup” so logically the excess metal removed has actually served a purpose, like the primary to microbevel relationship in the honing guide and grinder world. But this does not take place, there is a constant “excess” metal removal. There is no get rid of some steel and focus on the edge and then get rid of some more later in a few days, there is get rid of some steel every honing. This get rid of some steel every time never pays itself off, there is no time saved, no breathing room time for one to focus on the leading edge for a few days. I could go on forever. If we took this logic and implemented into a honing guide; grind the 25 degree primary every honing session and then hone the microbevel you can see how ridiculous that sounds. Granted there is much less fussing about doing it by hand but nevertheless even when there is only a mm of tool steel left, a normal hold around 30 and let it be will have wasted less time then a let’s rock it from 15-30 every-time as when they are removing “excess” steel right up till the the death of the tool. This is a stage where it won’t matter and no gain has been found except waste because now you’ve end up with the same big round bevel that hasn’t actually made anything faster because one removes the same big amount everytime. Now when compared; the hold it around 30 bevel on a dead tool has a tidy bevel size, where as the rock it and swing it bevel has a big bevel it has always had with “excess” steel removed and this will be a culmination and symbol of the wasted effort as right up to the end this strategy has never paid itself off.

I also don’t understand how rocking the tool about help sell a beginner or is self jigging, the videos that promoted this along with sandpaper sharpening almost singlehandedly stopped me from ever trying to sharpen a hand tool again, as a beginner these techniques were detrimental to my progress. I literally didn’t properly take a look at handtools again until a year later when I was 14.
Obviously with practice one can become adept at this rounding bevel and I could do it now with about 30 seconds of adjustment time but I wouldn’t waste time. It’s like trying to teach a person to do body waves while driving, sure it’s possible and once you can figure out the things needed so you won’t swerve you can do it consistently. But why? It’s not stronger, the angle at the edge decides that, doesn’t save time, etc.

Kees, i also don’t have a stick in this. Or at least I didn’t. Still don’t I think. No one practicing this method has offended me nor do I have the right to be offended by people doing their own thing. This also became more of a rant at some technique and guru and less a discussion with you. Sorry about that. Please don’t feel like the bulk of much of the latter is directed at you at all. I also understand some tools may benefit from a convex edge in terms of their use (carving).
I need to stay away from sharpening threads, I get itchy these days. :cool:
Well in the end if it’s sharp I guess that’s all that really matters.

happy sharpening,

Vince

[Jessica de Boer]

I have this one very strange chisel made by Nooitgedagt, they were a large Dutch tool maker. The blade is plain, Swedish high carbon steel and I tried to sharpen it once on my Atoma 1200 plate. The weird thing is that it literally tore diamonds from the surface of the plate when I sharpened the bevel. It's the only chisel I have to wants to do this but it's a complete mystery why this happens with this chisel. Maybe someone has an idea what's going on with this chisel?

[Kees Heiden]

I won't quote your entire post Vince, it was a bit long ;) I get the imprssion you were debating that the dip at the end of the stroke to make a convexity is wasted effort

What I was trying to say, is that the dip at the end of the stroke is just removing metal that has to be removed at some point in the future anyway. You are just doing it a couple of months earlier. So it is not wasted effort.

But I sharpen differently, I hollow grind and use a small microbevel. Or better, I just aime the chisel at the stone and somehow it turns out sharp.

[Jason Martin Winnipeg]

Sharpening is a very curious beast. I've never seen any two people sharpen the same way, and it seems to be as personal as a signature. I learned how to sharpen from Paul Sellers, but I still don't do it exactly like he does.

It's also curious in that you can go very very deep into the methodology and science of sharpening a piece of metal if you so choose, but it's also not necessary to do so to get good results. Personally, I don't find sharpening to be that interesting, but I do find how people sharpen to be very interesting and I'll watch sharpening videos just because I want to see how another person does it, not because I need to refine my technique or method.

[Luke Dupont]

The bevels are a tiny bit convex. I'm not sure making them dead flat will offer an additional significant improvement.

I think you're right; as I said in my original comment, I think I actually prefer a tiny bit of convexity. I also found that it helps to round the very top of the bevel off, as it can catch and jar the chisel if you are too shallow.



My father has been using Atoma plates since forever for his Ichihiros and they usually last him 4-5 years. Given that a replacement sheet is just 35-40 Euros I'd say that's very economical. And they actually get faster as the diamonds level out, especially the 400 and 600 grit plates.

Ah, nice. I think I should try a different brand of Diamond Stone. I think I bought DMTs and found them to wear out quickly, but I've bought a few different stones here in Japan that seem to hold up better. Needing a nice flattening plate, I finally bought a quality, coarse diamond stone (150 / 600 grit). It has so far performed exceedingly well for flattening the backs of chisels. We'll see if it holds up!

It could be, as you stated in the post below, just the particular steel of the last set of chisels that I had. Was that strange Nooitgedagt chisel super hard, or does it seem comperable to other steels you use?

[Jessica de Boer]

Was that strange Nooitgedagt chisel super hard, or does it seem comperable to other steels you use?

It's about the same hardness as a couple of Stanley Sweetheart chisels that I have. All of my Japanese chisels and the Stanleys sharpen beautifully on my diamond plates. The Nooitgedagt is definitely made of a very strange steel.

[Jessica de Boer]

I was sharpening my oire nomis today and I actually managed to get the bevel on 3 of them flat enough that they stuck to my finishing stone. I was able to let go of them without them falling down.

[Stewie Simpson]

https://www.toolsfromjapan.com/wordpress/?p=564

the Sigma Power # 120 grit stone.

Note the sharp corner edges of the stone have been removed to allow a more consistent abrasive pattern when working the backs of chisels and plane irons

The inherent problem of metal glazing with this stone was addressed by using loose sic powder as a cutting slurry.

Top surface flattening of this stone is best done on a flat bed of loose sic slurry.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/sigma%20120%20stone/DSC_0126_zpsyfdyi5jj.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/sigma%20120%20stone/DSC_0126_zpsyfdyi5jj.jpg.html)

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/sigma%20120%20stone/DSC_0127_zpsozg9bncj.jpg

(http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/sigma%20120%20stone/DSC_0127_zpsozg9bncj.jpg.html)http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/sigma%20120%20stone/DSC_0122_zpspmgfwmgp.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/sigma%20120%20stone/DSC_0122_zpspmgfwmgp.jpg.html)

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/sigma%20120%20stone/DSC_0123_zpsx3qvprol.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/sigma%20120%20stone/DSC_0127_zpsozg9bncj.jpg.html)