Need help turning beads/coves on face-turned end grain

[Chris Bumgarner]

Hello all, I am trying to make some small face-turned bases for figurines. They are basically short cylinders, like a sound block for a gavel. Or imagine a coaster with an ogee edge--about that size.

I can turn a basic cylinder, and I can get an OK round over, but I'd like to make some more interesting profiles, such as roundovers, half-coves, grooves, fillets, ogee, etc. However, I am having trouble make those cuts with my gouge. I keep getting catches with the tip, leaving me with a spiral trench in the wood. Richard Raffan gives a basic over-view of how to do beads and coves in one of his books, but I'd like to see a more detailed explanation or video.

Anyone have any ideas or know of any good videos (yes I did a google search)? Am I better off with a tool other than a gouge?

Chris

[Mark Greenbaum]

Is the end grain running in direction of the lathe bed? If so, contours on the sides of the cylinder would be side grain, and either a skew, roughing or spindle roughing gouge would work fine.

[John K Jordan]

I'm wondering if you need a gouge with a different grind. I usually use a spindle gouge on such things, such as the gentle cove on the gavel sound block:

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Another tool which works incredibly well is either the small Osprey or Hercules tool that Mike Hunter sells. http://huntertoolsystems.com/product/1-hunter-osprey-tool/ You use it just like a gouge, riding the bevel for any type of cut on either face or spindle grain orientation. It won't get into as narrow a groove as a low angle grind on a spindle gouge or a skew, but for most things it will work well. It can also be used as a scraper to shape the profile, then as a cutting tool for nearly glass-smooth surfaces. I often have beginners use one of these since it is so flexible. (and never needs sharpening!)

For small figurine bases, I might consider turning them in the spindle orientation with the grain parallel to the lathe bed, just as you would turn a box and lid. That way you don't have to deal with the alternating end and side grain as when face turning and might get a better finish. Some people don't like dealing with the end grain but small negative rake scrapers will leave an incredibly smooth surface on most woods with no tearout (the harder the wood the better.) These are some I ground primarily for end grain:

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Sorry, I don't watch videos much so I don't know what's available. John Lucas has some videos on using the Hunter tools that might be useful. The best instruction is hands-on, one on one - perhaps a turner near you could help.

JKJ


Hello all, I am trying to make some small face-turned bases for figurines. They are basically short cylinders, like a sound block for a gavel. Or imagine a coaster with an ogee edge--about that size.

I can turn a basic cylinder, and I can get an OK round over, but I'd like to make some more interesting profiles, such as roundovers, half-coves, grooves, fillets, ogee, etc. However, I am having trouble make those cuts with my gouge. I keep getting catches with the tip, leaving me with a spiral trench in the wood. Richard Raffan gives a basic over-view of how to do beads and coves in one of his books, but I'd like to see a more detailed explanation or video.

Anyone have any ideas or know of any good videos (yes I did a google search)? Am I better off with a tool other than a gouge?

Chris

[David M Peters]

In his basic bowl video (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLVOY7-TuG7c4P3XADIzcT-tVTK5IpoKVe) Richard Raffan applies a bead to the side of a bowl with a spindle gouge. It's a fast and fancy technique but as you've observed, is prone to catches. At the terminus of the cut, when gouge is plunged into the wood, it's important that the flute be perpendicular to the rotation in order that neither wing digs in and sends the gouge off into a spiral. You can test this by gently poking your sideways gouge into the spinning blank and seeing how rotating it causes it to be thrown off in different directions. There will be a sweet spot in the middle which is where you need to be when finishing the bead.

Alternatively you can shape simple beads into alternating grain (i.e. the side of a bowl or sounding block) with gentle scraping from a sideways skew or other small tool. It's not fast or fancy, and you probably won't sell any DVDs because of it, but the end result will be the same. More elaborate shapes will likely be best done with a gouge and more practice!

[Grant Wilkinson]

For beads, I cheat and use home-made beading tools. I grind them from old spindle gouges. Here is a youtube video by Brian Havens that shows you what I'm talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hnIGCUoB4s

[Dave Fritz]

As has been discussed there are numerous tools that will do the job but none that will do it for you. All require instruction and practice. There are a lot variables such as tool sharpness, tool profile, tool rest height, particular piece of wood, etc. Alan Lacer has a good video on the spindle gouge though my bet is he uses a skew most of the time for beads and coves.
In truth only recently have I been able to make an entry cut without a skip with one particular tool, the others act like the’re off to the races. I really need to watch Lacer’s video and practice. Do you have a club or an experienced turner near you? Turners are usually very helpful people.

[jake Niedling]

I prefer a 3/8" bowl, spindle or detail gouge with sweep back wings for doing what you describe. I really don't think about the grain direction much when making beads, coves ,ogees or round overs. Cut down hill, sharp tools, keep the bevel touching the wood and a light touch. Usually, a catch is due to the a loss of bevel support and or the unsupported wing of the gouge making contact with the wood. You can do it!

[JohnC Lucas]

Here is a video I did on turning a Rosette. I use scrapers on the first part and bevel rubbing tools on the second part. Hopefully it will answer your question. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_Jc43ncgiI

[Fred Belknap]

John love your videos :)

[Chris Bumgarner]

Thanks to all for the responses. I agree that personal instruction is best, but I don't know any turners in my area (Dayton, Ohio metro area). The nearest AAW club is an hour away. But maybe it's worth the drive?

I am thinking the shape of my spindle gouge grind is the issue. I use the OneWay Vari Grind II jig. Many have mentioned using a "long-pointed detail gouge." What makes a detail gouge "long-pointed"? Is it the bevel angle, the included angle? Both?

[John K Jordan]

Thanks to all for the responses. I agree that personal instruction is best, but I don't know any turners in my area (Dayton, Ohio metro area). The nearest AAW club is an hour away. But maybe it's worth the drive?

I am thinking the shape of my spindle gouge grind is the issue. I use the OneWay Vari Grind II jig. Many have mentioned using a "long-pointed detail gouge." What makes a detail gouge "long-pointed"? Is it the bevel angle, the included angle? Both?


A club may be well worth the drive. I drive 45 minutes to one club and carpool over an hour a half to another each month. When you visit the club(s), stand up and ask - it is likely someone lives near you.

One difference in a spindle gouge that is designated a "detail" gouge is the flute may be shallower allowing more metal in the shaft and at the same time allowing a more pointed shape with nearly the same settings on the jig. Sorry, at the moment I don't have pictures of my spindle gouges. You might call Doug Thompson for advice - many of the tools I use these days are from Doug. http://thompsonlathetools.com/product-category/spindle-gouges/ (BTW, I love Doug's tools but I don't care much for any of his grinds!)

That said, I don't use a shallow-flute detail spindle gouge much for general beads and coves - I find a less pointed gouge better with a deeper flute (but still with the wings ground back). The sharper point is great for deeper grooves when I don't want to use the skew, and for smaller details on spindles such as delicate finials.

One important thing about grinds though, once you get used to it you can turn almost anything with almost any grind (as long as the tools are very sharp). Much is what you get used to. The shapes you mention could be done with a bowl gouge, spindle gouge, detail gouge, scrapers, etc. (or a Hunter carbide tool like the Osprey). In looking at the old books woodturners have been successfully making incredible things for ages using a wide variety of grinds.

BTW, both the settings on the varigrind and how much time you grind on the wings compared to the point will determine the type of grind you make. A couple of closeup photos of what you are using now might help people understand and advise.

JKJ

[Alex Zeller]

Would the diamond tool (teardrop) that D-way sells work for doing detail work on bowls?

http://d-waytools.com/beading-tools/diamond-tool-aka-tear-drop-tool-shaft-size-390/

[JohnC Lucas]

The diamond tool will work and leaves a decent finish. I use a 3 point tool that I made from Drill rod. Neither one leaves a finish as good as a spindle gouge or skew but they are much safer to use. So is a skew on it's side which you probably already own. Of course none of those will work for coves. The best thing for larger coves for the beginner is a negative rake round nose scraper. For small coves I used to make round shaft negative rake round nose scrapers. Now I use detail gouge for most beads and small coves. Detail gouges are great for larger coves as well. The reason is the Thompson Detail gouges are very thick with that shallow milled out flute. This reduces the chatter a lot when hanging over the tool rest very far. When you turn large deep coves in Bed posts you can easily hang the tool over the tool rest 2 to 3" depending on the size of the post.

[John K Jordan]

I did this quick practice test this morning (on some terrible walnut!) so I could determine what tools and techniques to recommend to a student about to make a knob/lid for a box. I paid almost no attention to the quality or symmetry of the curve. About 2" in diameter.

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I first cut it with a spindle gouge, my usual method. However, I'm not sure how well she can handle a deep cove with a gouge so I tried a couple of other methods. The easiest was a small Hunter Hercules held flat on the rest but turned a bit to nose into the sides of the cove, to cut between the 10 and 2-o'clock positions on the cutter. This way the angle built into the tool prevents a catch. I found a very narrow round-nose NRS was perfect for cleaning up the very bottom. A spindle gouge turned upside down to make an NRS worked as well. Shear scraping on the sides of the cove quickly cleaned up any tool marks to allow just a bit of sanding.

This is in spindle orientation, not face orientation, but I've done similar things both ways with the same tools.

JKJ

[Dane Riley]

One difference in a spindle gouge that is designated a "detail" gouge is the flute may be shallower allowing more metal in the shaft and at the same time allowing a more pointed shape with nearly the same settings on the jig. Sorry, at the moment I don't have pictures of my spindle gouges.

BTW, both the settings on the varigrind and how much time you grind on the wings compared to the point will determine the type of grind you make. A couple of closeup photos of what you are using now might help people understand and advise.

JKJ

John, next time you photograph in your shop, could you photograph your spindle gouge grinds and start a new thread? I know what a many versions of a bowl gouge grind looks like, but have seen few spindle gouge grinds, and no detail gouge grinds. My skill with each of these probably reflects this.

[John K Jordan]

John, next time you photograph in your shop, could you photograph your spindle gouge grinds and start a new thread? I know what a many versions of a bowl gouge grind looks like, but have seen few spindle gouge grinds, and no detail gouge grinds. My skill with each of these probably reflects this.

I looked through my photo files to be sure and I can't find a single good photo of spindle gouge grinds.

I can shoot some. But you might have to remind me - I'm way overbooked until after the first of Sept! I can always take quick pictures with my phone but to see grinds properly would need closeup photos with the "good" camera. In the mean time perhaps someone else will have some photos on hand.

Also, the Tormek manual has some instruction about sharpening. Their gouge jig is very similar in operation to the Varigrind although the settings are not. Like elsewhere, bowl gouges get most of the attention but is a bit on page 78 in here: https://www.tormek.com/media/448711/hb-10-en-v101-svd-185.pdf
I think the top drawing in the spindle gouge section of the table looks pretty close to what I use. If your spindle gouge looks remotely close to this it is probably fine - you can do the same cuts with a significant variation in the grind once you get used to it. Must be scary sharp, though!

I actually like the Tormek jig better for spindle gouges but the Varigrind works fine and I did use it for a few years. These days I sharpen the spindle gouges on the Tormek with a 1200 grit CBN but reshape if necessary (rarely) on a coarser CBN wheel on a bench grinder with a extra Tormek jig support bar. I may have mentioned this, but if not, I keep six of my most used spindle gouges (3/8" Thompson) with identical grinds. When one gets dull I put it in the dull pile and put a sharp on in the handle. When they are all dull I stop and resharpen them all. This lets me keep turning without interruption and saves a lot of sharpening time since most of the time is setting the jig for the exact grind.

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JKJ

[Chris Bumgarner]

I found a couple of videos where a guy makes bases for a mug or earring stand, so he is making similar cuts to the ones I want to learn (decorations on the end grain of a face-turned piece). He mostly uses a negative rake scraper, but at 1:55 (https://youtu.be/rQECBmRcVw8?t=1m55s) he uses his shallow gouge on the end grain with the flute facing up. I was under the impression that doing this was dangerous. I've read that getting a catch with the gouge like this could cleave the wood in half. Of course, this guy is a pro with 35 years of experience, maybe he is skill enough to get away with it. I don't think I'm skilled enough.

What do you all think?

[Bert Delisle]

I found a couple of videos where a guy makes bases for a mug or earring stand, so he is making similar cuts to the ones I want to learn (decorations on the end grain of a face-turned piece). He mostly uses a negative rake scraper, but at 1:55 (https://youtu.be/rQECBmRcVw8?t=1m55s) he uses his shallow gouge on the end grain with the flute facing up. I was under the impression that doing this was dangerous. I've read that getting a catch with the gouge like this could cleave the wood in half. Of course, this guy is a pro with 35 years of experience, maybe he is skill enough to get away with it. I don't think I'm skilled enough.

What do you all think?
Raffan uses a spindle gouge to cut details in the edges of flat platters and trivets, also woodturner21 uses a spindle gouge to do the cove and oggee cuts in his demo videos. Both appear use the bevel with flute pointing the direction of cut. In a workshop with Richard R. he showed us how to do the cuts with spindle gouge, explaining that tool presentation and sharpness are crucial to clean side grain cuts. Emphasis on sharp cutting edge, as a tool that is not razor sharp will need more pressure making control difficult and likely result in a catch, a sharp tool cuts with light pressure on the wood. It takes practice to learn the feel of sharp edge compared to a nearly sharp edge, when in doubt sharpen, give yourself the sharpest edge to give you the best chance of a clean cut. Good luck and stay safe.