Not impressed with new SawStop ICS

[Steve Mathews]

The new finger saving technology aside I'm not impressed with my new SawStop ICS with a 5hp motor. The saw is definitely quieter than my previous Unisaw and Jet cabinet saw but the overall build quality was less than what I expected in an industrial tool. I was also disappointed with the included 52" extension table, which is much flimsier than my previous tables framed using hardwood. The SawStop frame was all made out of softwood. My opinion is that the ICS makes for a good hobbyist saw but not worthy of it being called an industrial cabinet saw.

[Van Huskey]

In the end, it is just a name, a model designation. You can't really consider any 10" saw as "industrial", most 12/14" saws are "just" commercial level. The ICS fairs well compared to its actual competition (new Uni and PM2000).

This is the type of saw I think of when I think of an industrial cabinet saw.

390776

[Mike Goetzke]

In the end, it is just a name, a model designation. You can't really consider any 10" saw as "industrial", most 12/14" saws are "just" commercial level. The ICS fairs well compared to its actual competition (new Uni and PM2000).

This is the type of saw I think of when I think of an industrial cabinet saw.

390776

Ha, should have cropped out the non-industrial bench top planer :).

[Van Huskey]

Ha, should have cropped out the non-industrial bench top planer :).

It is the Norfield's afternoon snack, gotta keep the strength up I suppose. It is an odd juxtaposition though, I just grabbed the first big saw pic I found.

[David Kumm]

Northfield was considered on the lighter end of " Industrial" back then so you know how far the marketing hype has stretched. Dave

[glenn bradley]

I agree that comparing a saw costing under $5k to actual industrial woodworking equipment is falling for the marketing term bit hard. It fares well against the competition at the tier it resides in.

That being said, the extension is all for looks and the weakest part of Saw Stops design. I will replace the 'Chinese Balsa Wood' frame with some white oak scraps the next time I do routine maintenance to that part of the shop.

[johnny means]

Was the extension table your only issue?

[Roy Turbett]

I somewhat agree as I made the same trade. The overall build quality of the SawStop is comparable but not superior to my old Unisaw and the fence is inferior to the Unifence. However, the riving knife and dust collection on the SawStop is superior.

[Simon MacGowen]

My opinion is that the ICS makes for a good hobbyist saw but not worthy of it being called an industrial cabinet saw.

Your opinion caused me to Google (Industrial Cabinet Saw) to see what other industrial cabinet saws were out there to compete or compare with SawStop ICS. To my surprise, almost everything on the first 7 or 8 pages of search was about SAWSTOP ICS. So is it possible that there indeed are no industrial cabinet saws as such, other than a label SawStop uses? Of course, there are huge tablesaws used in the woodworking industry, but SawStop is actually cleverly (or cunningly, depending on your perspective) presenting its ICS in a way that attracts the attention of small shops looking for more heavy duty saws.

Simon

[Van Huskey]

So is it possible that there indeed are no industrial cabinet saws as such, other than a label SawStop uses? Of course, there are huge tablesaws used in the woodworking industry,

Simon

Probably the only (historically) industrial cabinet saw still made is the Northfield #4 but as Dave mentioned that was considered light industrial. There are very few cabinet saws still used in the woodworking industry, just like bandsaws they are a dying breed, they are even disappearing in light commercial applications. The other thing is you rarely see the word industrial used in the model or even the promotion of true industrial machines. The next step up, in weight and capacity, from the ICS in currently available cabinet saws would be saws like the 14" PM 3000 and the 16" one Oliver makes. In the end words like "professional", "commercial" and "industrial" are often used in the pro-sumer range of goods it is just a tried and true part of marketing wank or puffery. One argument for the industrial moniker on the ICS is it is indeed available in 480v and 600v configurations which would only be available in industrial areas.

[johnny means]

"Industrial cabinet saw" is a bit of an oxymoron. That being said, I do remember when I bought the original ICS it was, except for blade size, comparable to other 12 inch machines in mass and size.

[Jerome Sidley]

While I do like the riving knife on mine I find the overhead dust collection lacking, and have found sawdust in the cabinet. Right now I am using only a 1hp DC but will soon have a 5hp DC hooked up and we'll see if there is any improvement.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Jerome, dust collection should improve once you have enough airflow with the larger collector...........Regards, Rod.

[Bob Bouis]

For what it's worth, the table on the PM2000 is junk, too. It's made out of particleboard and the legs are held on by tiny little screws in said particleboard. Mine wasn't even close to flat, either.

[Simon MacGowen]

For what it's worth, the table on the PM2000 is junk, too. It's made out of particleboard and the legs are held on by tiny little screws in said particleboard. Mine wasn't even close to flat, either.

Some people replace the extension table so they could install a router table in its place. We are woodworkers and with a new saw as good as the SS or PM, replacing the ext. table with a better one, say, made of birch plywood should be a piece of cake.

Simon

[Van Huskey]

For what it's worth, the table on the PM2000 is junk, too. It's made out of particleboard and the legs are held on by tiny little screws in said particleboard. Mine wasn't even close to flat, either.

While the one on my PM2000 was flat it was still flimsey in the big picture. I added some more bracing under the table and put a sheet of ply on the underside (sorta torsion box style). I would love to have one of the cast tables like Woodwerks did for their "PM 2066" custom saws but they stopped doing it right before I got my saw and the company that made the tables (Quality Grinding?) ceased operations. Funny enough I got a great deal on my saw because it was one built to go to Woodwerks and they had Baldor motors instead of Taiwanese ones which I guess makes it one of the last saws PM made with any American content.

[Patrick Kane]

Yeah, i always wanted a PM72 with one of those giant CI wings. Oddly enough theres a local guy selling a 3 phase 72 with TWO cast iron extensions. The post has been up for a month and i look at it occasionally. Dont particularly want to endure the hassle of selling my unisaw and then ripping that one apart. I must be getting lazy if having to move two cabinet saws is enough of a reason not to do something.

[Sean Nagle]

The SS ICS comes with an extension table. That's nice. I had to build one for my Unisaw... twice.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Sell it for half price. I'm sure someone ELSE would be happy.

[Martin Wasner]

My opinion is that the ICS makes for a good hobbyist saw but not worthy of it being called an industrial cabinet saw.

Without the stop parts, the saw is just another mediocre Asian tablesaw

[Jerome Stanek]

Sell it for half price. I'm sure someone ELSE would be happy.

I thought that they hold there value but it looks like you don't think so.

[Simon MacGowen]

I thought that they hold there value but it looks like you don't think so.

Was he referring to the ext table or the saw? Old ICSs are seen sold at 50% of their prices here; new ICSs should fetch a lot more.

Simon

[Van Huskey]

Was he referring to the ext table or the saw? Old ICSs are seen sold at 50% of their prices here; new ICSs should fetch a lot more.

Simon

I think Kyle was just being funny.

[Simon MacGowen]

I think Kyle was just being funny.

Me think so, too.

Simon

[Van Huskey]

Me think so, too.

Simon

If he lived in Arizona (near the OP) instead of an island in the middle of the Pacific I might think he was being devious vs comedic. :D

[Martin Wasner]

I think Kyle was just being funny.

A classic example of a statement lacking tone or inflection, (never mind body language), and being able to interpret it multiple ways.

[Steve Demuth]

Without the stop parts, the saw is just another mediocre Asian tablesaw

I'd say it's pretty close to the top-end of Asian table saws. It's not a piece of factory equipment suitable for continuous duty cycle production line work (and I can't imagine any informed buyer expecting it to be), but it's well beyond the run-of-the-mill Asian import in terms of fit and finish, quality and ruggedness.

[Martin Wasner]

The top of the middle is still the middle

[Van Huskey]

I'd say it's pretty close to the top-end of Asian table saws. It's not a piece of factory equipment suitable for continuous duty cycle production line work (and I can't imagine any informed buyer expecting it to be), but it's well beyond the run-of-the-mill Asian import in terms of fit and finish, quality and ruggedness.

I am guessing Martin is not saying the SS is mediocre among Asian saws, just that all Asians saws are mediocre, which from his POV makes sense.

From a professional/commercial POV it is hard not to consider all Asian saws as mediocre given in that world Martin and upper level Altendorf saws are the gold standard.

Well Marin replied as I was typing and confirmed my suspicions

[Steve Mathews]

Was the extension table your only issue?

Just to get the list started ... The top on the main body of the saw is bowed from front to back while both cast iron extensions are cupped. I don't see the lack of flatness bad enough to affect cut accuracy but I expected better. The amount of plastics used in the construction of the saw is disappointing, especially the swing away gate that is part of the dust collection shroud. The hose connecting the shroud and exterior hose connection is plastic ribbed not metal ribbed. The brackets for wrench and miter gauge storage are made out of flimsy, thin metal. The electrical terminal box will only accept 12 gauge wire relief strain connections while the connections inside the saw are larger. That one still puzzles me.

[Joe Jensen]

The original poster must have just read the marketing collateral that calls it Industrial. Lots of examples of tool labeled industrial that are not. If you read the manual, the Sawstop ICS sets itself apart from Unisaws and PM66 saws in that it has blade heel adjustment. With the Uni and PM66 and all other 10" cabinet saws that I am aware of you cannot remove blade heel by adjusting. You can only average the error with shims. With the Sawstop ICS that is adjustable. Also if you compare the trunions there is no comparison. The Sawstop is much more advanced, and you can adjust away any machining error during manufacturing. With the other cabinet saws you cannot. The sawstop ICS has a much larger table. Lastly, the Sawstop ICS weights more than the Unisaw, PM66, and PM2000. About 100 lbs more. Is it a true industrial duty saw, of course not. Is it another mediocre Asian cabinet saw? It is Asian but it stands above the US made Unisaw and the US made PM66. I've owned all three.

This would be an industrial cabinet saw.
http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/tablesaws/4saw.htm

[Simon MacGowen]

Is it another mediocre Asian cabinet saw? It is Asian but it stands above the US made Unisaw and the US made PM66. I've owned all three.



Haha. You fell into Martin's trap who by the way knows about all the weaknesses of the SawStop though he can't point them out one by one. I can, because I have used the SS since the first generation of ICS (the PCS were released later). Try asking him which Asian cabinet saw that is not mediocre, or which Asian (or US) cabinet saw has a better user manual!

Simon

[Martin Wasner]

who by the way knows about all the weaknesses of the SawStop though he can't point them out one by one.

-Light trunnion
-Small bearings
-Belt drive, though tough to escape on a 10" saw
-Cheap motor
-Cheap switch
-Cheap starter
-Light stamped base
-Prone to mis-fires (though they do replace)
-Wierd grind on the table top (needs more texture to make it slippery. Looks nice, but not very functional)
-Light duty miter gauge slots
-Square miter gauge slots instead of proper dovetailed slots

I do like the fence though, it's one of my favorites of the T-lock variety.

[Pat Barry]

-Light trunnion
-Small bearings
-Belt drive, though tough to escape on a 10" saw
-Cheap motor
-Cheap switch
-Cheap starter
-Light stamped base
-Prone to mis-fires (though they do replace)
-Wierd grind on the table top (needs more texture to make it slippery. Looks nice, but not very functional)
-Light duty miter gauge slots
-Square miter gauge slots instead of proper dovetailed slots

I do like the fence though, it's one of my favorites of the T-lock variety.
I've not seen dovetailed miter gauge slots. Are they common? Not sure that I would like them. Whats the benefit?

[Simon MacGowen]

-Light trunnion
-Small bearings
-Belt drive, though tough to escape on a 10" saw
-Cheap motor
-Cheap switch
-Cheap starter
-Light stamped base
-Prone to mis-fires (though they do replace)
-Wierd grind on the table top (needs more texture to make it slippery. Looks nice, but not very functional)
-Light duty miter gauge slots
-Square miter gauge slots instead of proper dovetailed slots

I do like the fence though, it's one of my favorites of the T-lock variety.

You are listing out the basic components of any cabinet saw and then add an adjective in front of them. You really have disappointed me, Martin. I thought you would have at least pointed out these:

-Poor plywood used for the fence (in the 1st gen. of ICS -- 12 or 13 years ago)
-Pricey machine when compared to other cabinet saws
-Poor right-angled dust chute design for the overarm dust collection
-Industrial mobile base (the best money can buy for a cabinet saw) not a standard feature for the PCS
-Dust collection blade guard not a standard feature for the PCS.

I don't blame you. Some have done even worse after they saw just a few hot-dog demos (not even in person) and proclaimed themselves experts in the saw. Am I a SS expert?

Yes, if over 10 years of using the saws (ICS and PCS) was the criterion.
No, if the criterion was that I had to trigger one brake activation or more.

Simon

[Martin Wasner]

Our needs are different. You're an evangelist, I'm an entrepreneur. The four things you list are simple to fix or don't matter, (like price), and not systemic like my list.

You're not an expert, you're a garage warrior spouting your illusion of superiority because you've latched onto something.

[Simon MacGowen]

Our needs are different. You're an evangelist, I'm an entrepreneur. The four things you list are simple to fix or don't matter, (like price), and not systemic like my list.


Must bite my tongue this time...so no one could point the finger at me if and when this (sawstop) thread is locked, moved or whatever!

Simon

[Martin Wasner]

I've not seen dovetailed miter gauge slots. Are they common? Not sure that I would like them. Whats the benefit?

Common on older saws. I don't know they're better, but both of mine are smoother and have a tighter tolerance than the other tablesaws in the shop.

[jack forsberg]

CertainlyThe rise and fall mechanism is a POS Subject to misalignment and included in the standards of their manual are not to be adjusted unless they are out by .006” . Trunonns do appear to be weak when compared to others in this class with very small span placement of bolts on the tin base but what appears to be the most weakest is the central casting that is generally Slung between the trunnions is bolted together with pipe and bolts. Obviously this is a departure from the traditional one piece casting which would never and I was never in need of adjusting.The rack and Pinion rise and fall looks rather flimsy and is subject the shock of the braking system . When out of alignment rise and fall adjustments need to be made or the saw blade does not run parallel to the slot in any given height position. It would appear to me that they needed such a mechanism to allow the blade to slam down below the table. they’ve had the insight to give her access panel to this week mechanism to which they called robust. Anybody who knows anything knows that the pipe type Rise and fall are subject to wear Because of the lack of bearing surface. They have been implemented on cheap shapers for years and other quite flimsy gear. There appears to be no provision for ware in the Critical component

[Van Huskey]

Must bite my tongue this time...

Simon

Let's try to refocus on the OP and see it through that lens. The OP didn't feel the ISC measures up to an industrial saw. This is a legitimate point mainly because the ICS is really not what many would consider an industrial saw along with ANY 10" saw no matter how well it is built or made. There is one lighter weight (as noted) industrial cabinet saw still made, the Northfield #4 which weighs in about 3 times as heavy as the ICS. The heft of the build and the quality of the grinding is superior to the ICS, it is simply in a different class and outside a post like the OP's people would rarely compare them. Also, no one in this thread has argued the ICS isn't in the top end of the 10" cabinet saws available now. However, I think it is reasonably objective to say the entire class of saws is mediocre compared to the much heavier cabinet saws or if you broaden the comparison sliders like Martin, but they are simply in a COMPLETELY different price class. Trying to compare the ICS to real industrial saws actually does it a disservice considering it is priced multiple times less.

[johnny means]

Is being belt driven weakness in a table saw?

[David Kumm]

Direct drive machines tend to be very smooth and incorporating the spindle and rotor together with large bearings make for a bulletproof design providing the motor quality is as good as the rest of the machine. Tradeoff is reduced depth of cut and speed is limited to motor rpm. On jointers and planers this compensated for with large diameter heads. Dovetailed slots were used more in European machinery and demanded precise grinding as those of us who have tried sliding dovetails can attest to. US machinery generally used T slots on table saws. A tad more forgiving although US machinery tended to be very precise in machining their direct drive spindles. The large bearings were placed far apart for strength and it was seldom that self aligning bearings were needed to correct faulty machining.

Machine guys who are woodworkers look at machines differently than woodworkers who mainly use machines to work wood. I have a similar disconnect when I watch videos reviewing new cars. Seems like more time and credit is given to how the electronics integrate and how ergonomic the buttons and touch screens work than how the suspension balances ride vs handling, or how the transmission and engine deliver power across the rpm range, not to mention the actual design plusses and minusses of the engine and transmission design and build. Doesn't mean one side is right and the other wrong, just that priorities are different. Dave

[Simon MacGowen]

Trying to compare the ICS to real industrial saws actually does it a disservice considering it is priced multiple times less.

The truth of the matter is that (anyone following the SS discussions in this or other forums knows it) it is not about comparing the SS against any saws. The comparisons are a disguise. A smokescreen. The SawStop, given its success, is a stick in the eye to some, who, by the way, have never owned, meaningfully used, or operated a SawStop.

They are very good at pointing out the cosmetic improvements that they think SawStop can or should make, while conveniently ignoring their complaints about SawStop's prices. They expect SawStop to make the saws better and at the same time make the prices lower! Failing that...it is a mediocre saw.

They will not produce one shed of field evidence on how the current generations of SawStop are underperforming for what are marketed for.

No, even if the SawStop is compared to a contractor saw, a job site saw or, well, a circular saw, they will still come to the same conclusion!

Simon

[Martin Wasner]

Is being belt driven weakness in a table saw?

Adds vibration, belts use power. It's not the end of the world, but direct drive is much smoother.

[Van Huskey]

The truth of the matter is that (anyone following the SS discussions in this or other forums knows it) it is not about comparing the SS against any saws. The comparisons are a disguise. A smokescreen. The SawStop, given its success, is a stick in the eye to some, who, by the way, have never owned, meaningfully used, or operated a SawStop.

They are very good at pointing out the cosmetic improvements that they think SawStop can or should make, while conveniently ignoring their complaints about SawStop's prices. They expect SawStop to make the saws better and at the same time make the prices lower! Failing that...it is a mediocre saw.

They will not produce one shed of field evidence on how the current generations of SawStop are underperforming for what are marketed for.

No, even if the SawStop is compared to a contractor saw, a job site saw or, well, a circular saw, they will still come to the same conclusion!

Simon

Let's assume for a moment the OP did indeed drop some bait and attempt to troll, it is possible. The problem is you swallowed the hook. When you start defending the ICS against machines that weigh 3-5 times as much and cost (or would cost) 3-5 times (or more) as much it puts you in the same category as the guy saying his site saw is built better than an ICS. The ICS acquits itself very well against every Asian and a lot of the older American light-duty cabinet saws, that's an argument worth making, trying to compare it to the build quality of a true industrial saw is like throwing your flyweight contender in with Ali, Forman or Tyson in their prime, there is a reason there are weight classes.

I am sure I come across as a zealot sometimes but I hope I am objective enough to see when the object of my affection is simply outclassed.

[Simon MacGowen]

Let's assume for a moment the OP did indeed drop some bait and attempt to troll, it is possible.

No, my last post is not about the OP's remark. He is legit as the table is indeed pine stuff; some, as I pointed out, replaced it with a router table.

Simon

[Matt Mattingley]

Saw stop Industrial cabinet saw. This is a 10 inch blade???

I’d rather buy a Hammer Slider any day the week for $1000 more.

I personally Think any industrial machine should have a motor that weighs less than 10% of the whole machine weight if it is considered freestanding.

I personally don’t like machines that do not have shimable surfaces (or adjustable Gibbs).

People will buy consumables. Saw stop is a consumable IMO.

If you want USED industrial, buy a Northfield #4, pk, pp, tannewitz, Oliver, Robinson ETE or ETZ or Stenner...
NEW, Hammer I would consider consumer/industrial.

Felder, Format, Martin, Altendorf... and a few others these are real industrial. Sorry Grizzly doesn’t make it!

The top-of-the-line cabinet builders Fixture makers, pattern makers are not using saw stop.

Stop saws are used primarily by training educational institutions to prevent mishaps and insurance reduction. This is like forcing or implementing every educational driving instructor to purchase a Tesla.

[jim mills]

Did sawstop ever do anything to improve the fence faces? The first generation formica over plywood were terrible.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Adds vibration, belts use power. It's not the end of the world, but direct drive is much smoother.

Oh you have got to be kidding me...... Tried to refrain from posting again. Are you serious? Use a 5 hp motor in direct drive you will lose 2 inches of cut capacity. A V belt will suck up some power but a multi groove v, not a lot. I can put a penny on edge on my ICS, start the saw, cut a full sheet of 3/4" cabinet plywood in half, alone, turn the saw off, and the penny will still be on edge. You?

[Van Huskey]

Use a 5 hp motor in direct drive you will lose 2 inches of cut capacity.

That's why the big industrial saws use 18" blades which gives ~2" more DOC at 0* than an ICS, it also gives you ~45% more teeth cuts per unit of time. DMD machines do run smoother than the same machine with belt drive and they also have the benefit of higher ABEC bearings over the ICS and at least a 1/2 ton more mass to damp vibrations. The extension tables alone on these saws can weigh nearly as much as an ICS itself, which I think would have met the OP's expectations.

I just don't get the desire to argue the ICS against big industrial saws, it is like arguing ones F350 is built more robust than Kenworth T680, but it doesn't mean the F350 is poorly built for its class. Why is it even a discussion when we are talking about a $4K saw compared to saws that run 20-45 grand new? If you want to talk manuals or safety it is one thing but the robustness of build is so objective and so far apart it makes no sense to argue and build quality of "industrial" saws is the genesis of the thread. I completely understand why SS owners get defensive but this line of argument is the embodiment of quixotic.

[Martin Wasner]

Oh you have got to be kidding me...... Tried to refrain from posting again. Are you serious? Use a 5 hp motor in direct drive you will lose 2 inches of cut capacity. A V belt will suck up some power but a multi groove v, not a lot. I can put a penny on edge on my ICS, start the saw, cut a full sheet of 3/4" cabinet plywood in half, alone, turn the saw off, and the penny will still be on edge. You?

I take it you've never used a direct drive saw either?

[Martin Wasner]

You?

Apparently the answer is yes. Even on a tired, 80 year old, abused and in semi rough shape lighter built saw like a Type U, I can do that. Which still probably weighs around double that of a Sawstop.

There is some roughness in the wind down at about thirty seconds after I hit the power off button, the last minute of wind down is smooth. It must be some sort of harmonic in the blade. You can see it jello-ing the video a bit. My #4 is much smoother than this saw, but I don't feel like pulling the dado stack out and loading a blade to do the same exact thing.

How long is the wind down on a Sawstop?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zym59DLjP8&feature=youtu.be

[Steve Demuth]

This whole thread is a bit absurd. It should be obvious to anyone old enough to use a table saw that he word "industrial" in the Sawstop's name is marketing babble. "Industrial Cabinet Saw" after all is, if taken as a literal description, an oxymoron. Industrial-scale wood cutting isn't done on 10" cabinet saws.

The ICS is a 10" cabinet saw. It's toward the top end of that category in both quality and price. It's a nice saw for people whose woodworking needs are satisfied by the cabinet saw form factor, 10" blade size, and relatively (compared to a factory's needs) low duty cycle. Yes it has some faults, even when considered as a 10" cabinet saw, but it's not junk just because it isn't something that it doesn't seriously claim to be. The same machine can look like a toy in a factory line, and be a top-of-the-line fit for an artisan or home shop.

Comparing a Sawstop to an 18", 2500 lb, direct drive saw is like comparing your home computer to the ones I use at work to do genomic sequencing. Yes, they at some level are the same thing, but at any depth of analysis, they don't belong in a head to head comparison.

[Bob Cooper]

Buying new...what would the original poster expect to pay for a new Industrial class tablesaw?

[David Kumm]

The relevance to this comparison is the ability ( sensing tech aside ) to acquire the industrial 20K machine for much less than the cost of the new 10". Not for everyone but economics now are compelling if solving a few problems doesn't daunt someone. A vfd, pallet jack, ability to learn a little about mechanics, bearings and wiring and you are good to go. I have a Rockwell 12 which is a much heavier build than any 10", four belts, huge internals, and it is smooth and gives a great cut. It sits in the corner because my old direct drive saws get all the use. There is something about those old industrial direct drive machines that is difficult to describe, but you know when you use it that life is good. Dave

PS: And most have riving knives

[jack forsberg]

direct drive


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmfPm6-kttw

[Simon MacGowen]

Did sawstop ever do anything to improve the fence faces? The first generation formica over plywood were terrible.

That problem has been fixed.

Simon

[Van Huskey]

The relevance to this comparison is the ability ( sensing tech aside ) to acquire the industrial 20K machine for much less than the cost of the new 10".

I agree 100% that discussion/argument about the subjective side (like value) makes perfect sense. Even the safety vs convenience discussion is valid when set against something like the unusual case of someone that for whatever reason changes from a 10" blade to a dado stack 10 times a day.

In the end, this is just a discussion born of semantics, SS needed model designations when they introduced the smaller saw and either by whim or exhaustive research (or likely something in between) settled on Professional and Industrial the latter being somewhat optimistic.

[Nick Decker]

That problem has been fixed.

Simon

Maybe, sort of. My (almost new) PCS fence face is not perfectly flat. Has a couple of variance spots as you run an indicator along it. Overall, though, it is straight and I haven't noticed any problems.

[David Kumm]

I seldom disagree with Matt but consider Hammer to be consumer, Felder 700 high consumer, Felder 900 entry industrial, and Format middle industrial. Martin, Altendorf, Hoffmann, and maybe Panhans high industrial. Machines are built more lightly now as their electronics have a lifespan and there is little incentive to build anything that will last over 20 years. Dave

[Simon MacGowen]

Maybe, sort of. My (almost new) PCS fence face is not perfectly flat. Has a couple of variance spots as you run an indicator along it. Overall, though, it is straight and I haven't noticed any problems.

By fixing, I meant using higher quality and more-ply sheets, as opposed to the dirt cheap Chinese ply. It is easy to compare new fences with the old ICS fences by flipping the fences upside down. The first gen. ply had visible voids on the edges.

Good quality ply materials however do not guarantee flatness along the fence length, and that is why some woodworkers replace their stock fences with their own trued hardwood fences.

One more caution: avoid using the Chinese plys if you can, as there are reports that some imported plys contain carcinogenic bonding materials. You breathe them when you cut them on your saw! I seldom use plys, but always go for non-Chinese plys.

Simon

[Larry Edgerton]

Stop saws are used primarily by training educational institutions to prevent mishaps and insurance reduction. This is like forcing or implementing every educational driving instructor to purchase a Tesla.They have two of the SS industrials at the industrial arts institute I teach at, and they are no different than the PM 66 shoved in the corner of my barn.

I can not get used to the thing being ready to go off at any time, its a distraction to me. So I took in an old Unisaw and put a key on it for my own use, students use the SS.

[Joe Jensen]

-Light trunnion
-Small bearings
-Belt drive, though tough to escape on a 10" saw
-Cheap motor
-Cheap switch
-Cheap starter
-Light stamped base
-Prone to mis-fires (though they do replace)
-Wierd grind on the table top (needs more texture to make it slippery. Looks nice, but not very functional)
-Light duty miter gauge slots
-Square miter gauge slots instead of proper dovetailed slots

I do like the fence though, it's one of my favorites of the T-lock variety.

Martin, you have a great list of features that differentiate US Old Iron industrial table saws from US Old Iron 10" cabinet saws and all Asian cabinet saws. I wonder why you would spend huge money on the Sawstop when so many of those critical features were missing. I am only aware of Northfield still making a saw with all those features, are there others, and at what price point?

[Rod Sheridan]

The electrical terminal box will only accept 12 gauge wire relief strain connections while the connections inside the saw are larger. That one still puzzles me.

Hi Steve, if it's a single phase saw, the 12 AWG flexible cord would be rated for 25 amperes, which is probably fine for that HP. The internal wirings may need to be 10 AWG.....Regards, Rod.

[Martin Wasner]

New? Just Northfield that I'm aware of. Used there's a bunch of options in saws that can't be killed. For cheap too. New I think a #4 is ~$10k? A rolling top around $20k? Price doesn't matter if you scrape out a living with it though, only cost.

The swapstop is fine, just call it what it is, mediocre. Not terrible, not garbage, but it sure isn't stellar.

I might end up buying one for one specific task where you have to get really close to the blade, push sticks and gadgets are out, powerfeed isn't an option. But it won't see much use. I'm comfortable doing the operation, but everybody else freaks out. My skills are better put to use elsewhere in the shop.

[jack forsberg]

New? Just Northfield that I'm aware of. Used there's a bunch of options in saws that can't be killed. For cheap too. New I think a #4 is ~$10k? A rolling top around $20k? Price doesn't matter if you scrape out a living with it though, only cost.

The swapstop is fine, just call it what it is, mediocre. Not terrible, not garbage, but it sure isn't stellar.

I might end up buying one for one specific task where you have to get really close to the blade, push sticks and gadgets are out, powerfeed isn't an option. But it won't see much use. I'm comfortable doing the operation, but everybody else freaks out. My skills are better put to use elsewhere in the shop.
whats the operation? just curious

[Martin Wasner]

whats the operation? just curious

Resawing 2¼" wide plywood strips for flushing the carcass to the face frame on drawer openings. Currently we double rip, cut shallow, flip, finish the cut.

It's fast and works well, but there's no room to be stupid. The blade needs to be reasonably sharp, and everything needs to be waxed up really well. I've never even had a scare doing it, but I'm pretty focused doung it

[Darcy Warner]

Resawing 2¼" wide plywood strips for flushing the carcass to the face frame on drawer openings. Currently we double rip, cut shallow, flip, finish the cut.

It's fast and works well, but there's no room to be stupid. The blade needs to be reasonably sharp, and everything needs to be waxed up really well. I've never even had a scare doing it, but I'm pretty focused doung it

So about 5/16"?

[Martin Wasner]

So about 5/16"?

Anywhere from taking almost nothing off, down to about a ¼". Usually they're about 3/8"

[Darcy Warner]

Anywhere from taking almost nothing off, down to about a ¼". Usually they're about 3/8"

For side mount drawer slides?

[Martin Wasner]

yep

10 characters

[jim mills]

I plane mine. Maybe get them close with the bandsaw first.

[mreza Salav]

Resawing 2¼" wide plywood strips for flushing the carcass to the face frame on drawer openings. Currently we double rip, cut shallow, flip, finish the cut.

It's fast and works well, but there's no room to be stupid. The blade needs to be reasonably sharp, and everything needs to be waxed up really well. I've never even had a scare doing it, but I'm pretty focused doung it

Have you considered getting thin ply 1/16" (it's called 2-ply here) and use that in combination with 1/8-1/4" ply to get to thickness you want? It should be faster (maybe not as cheap though).

[Matt Mattingley]

It will be interesting this year and next year most of the Patton restrictions become obsolete. A new playing field will be introduced. Touch lamps have been around for 30+ years... good for Gass for making a few billion dollars on SS. SS had a great marketing team. I’m pretty sure support will dry up in the years to come.

[Peter Christensen]

I’m pretty sure support will dry up in the years to come.

Why would you believe that? Festool bought them up earlier this year so I would believe support should continue. It’s not like they were bought by a group that sells off the good bits and drops the quality to junk levels and relies on the old name until it is no good anymore.

[jim mills]

Why would you believe that? Festool bought them up earlier this year so I would believe support should continue. It’s not like they were bought by a group that sells off the good bits and drops the quality to junk levels and relies on the old name until it is no good anymore.

I'd say that's exactly why. While festool maintains the high cost & "quality", companies like ryobi, poorter cable, and dewalt will come out with cheaper versions of flesh saving saws, and sawstop sales will eventually plummet.

[jack forsberg]

Resawing 2¼" wide plywood strips for flushing the carcass to the face frame on drawer openings. Currently we double rip, cut shallow, flip, finish the cut.

It's fast and works well, but there's no room to be stupid. The blade needs to be reasonably sharp, and everything needs to be waxed up really well. I've never even had a scare doing it, but I'm pretty focused doung it
one of those thing that thats the material left over and we all like not to waste . I take it that each one is a little different and so you are dialing it in with the saw for each unit . I would not get a SS for that i would find a Hitachi re saw so it has more uses . nice little machine and with the 3" band cuts to a finish . i found one for $300


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP-eDA51Nhk

[Tim M Tuttle]

It will be interesting this year and next year most of the Patton restrictions become obsolete. A new playing field will be introduced. Touch lamps have been around for 30+ years... good for Gass for making a few billion dollars on SS. SS had a great marketing team. I’m pretty sure support will dry up in the years to come. . I highly doubt he made even $1 billion. Just this past year SawStop sold their 100,000th saw. Assuming an average price of $3000 per saw that's only $300 million in revenue for the life of the company just on their saws. SawStop did $40 million in revenue in 2016. He made some good money I am sure from the sale to Festool but even if they valued the company at 2x rev I'd bet that Festool bought it for less than $100 million.

[Simon MacGowen]

companies like ryobi, poorter cable, and dewalt will come out with cheaper versions of flesh saving saws, and sawstop sales will eventually plummet.

Which is a good thing as more and more woodworkers will get to enjoy the benefits of the finger-saving technology.

Bosch probably would also have to reduce its entry prices which are comparable to the SS jobsite saws' in face of the new competition. The big question is when?

The goal should be to deliver this kind of safety technology to the mass and not just to the current small segment (100,000 is still a very small number compared to the number of saw users out there). Make it a million and ten millions down the road.

Even better when such safety technology is extended to other cutting machines such as the bandsaws.

Simon

[Darcy Warner]

Thank goodness I can choose to not have to have any of that stuff.

[Martin Wasner]

. I highly doubt he made even $1 billion. Just this past year SawStop sold their 100,000th saw. Assuming an average price of $3000 per saw that's only $300 million in revenue for the life of the company just on their saws. SawStop did $40 million in revenue in 2016. He made some good money I am sure from the sale to Festool but even if they valued the company at 2x rev I'd bet that Festool bought it for less than $100 million.


Wild guess, but if they're making 5%, which is pretty good, they'd only make $150 per saw after paying the bills. That doesn't figure in how long they were under water on it too. R&D, and tooling isn't free.

Still more than I made in the last ten years. :D

[Martin Wasner]

one of those thing that thats the material left over and we all like not to waste . I take it that each one is a little different and so you are dialing it in with the saw for each unit . I would not get a SS for that i would find a Hitachi re saw so it has more uses . nice little machine and with the 3" band cuts to a finish . i found one for $300

Exactly, we scavenge the build out from drops that are useless for anything else, though once in a while I'll hack a full sheet until 2¼x21½ pieces to fill the rack back up.

Every one is different, even though it really shouldn't be. Plywood varies a lot, machining errors, cumulative errors, stretchers being off a freckle, or not seated properly. Many variables. It'll be better with a cnc, but it won't be perfect.

I've got a MM16 sitting right next to the saw we size build out on. I hadn't really thought about a power fed bandsaw for cutting it. I will say that cutting it on a tablesaw is really fast, and size changes are simple.

[Nick Shattuck]

If they are only profiting 5% of revenue then I feel sorry for him picking such a bad business to get into. Rule of thumb for a low-volume producer would be closer to 50%.

[Tim M Tuttle]

If they are only profiting 5% of revenue then I feel sorry for him picking such a bad business to get into. Rule of thumb for a low-volume producer would be closer to 50%.
Yup, at 5% you're basically losing money.

[Roy Turbett]

I've had one misfire on my ICS and SawStop didn't replace it for free. I was out $70 for the cartridge and $55 for the blade.

[Simon MacGowen]

I've had one misfire on my ICS and SawStop didn't replace it for free. I was out $70 for the cartridge and $55 for the blade.

You only get a freebie afte you submit your activated cartridge for their verification that the activation was due to a contact of the blade with a human part.

Simon

[Matt Mattingley]

I've had one misfire on my ICS and SawStop didn't replace it for free. I was out $70 for the cartridge and $55 for the blade.


You only get a freebie afte you submit your activated cartridge for their verification that the activation was due to a contact of the blade with a human part.

Simon
So would you get a free one if you admitted to trying to cut america’s favourite wiener??? It is the wiener saw, trademarked buy Gass himself.

I actually think there’s more to it than just meets the eye... They actually send a movie crew out, to hand you the new cartridge. This is how they promote their product on fear. Fear, Fear of litigation(on copyright),... I’m still waiting for Gass’s ICS Real slider that he promised to the market, And his improvements to overhead dust collection.

In the end, Gass became a sell out... He should’ve become the Intel Pentium processor inside!

In the end, you bought the best warranty that comes with the saw. 2019 and say you bought a three year extended warranty... at what price does this vintage machinery electronic technology come at? And at the end of year three year warranty do you expect to be fully serviced at a reasonable priced???

Like your car, would you trust the brakes buying offshore or would you want to buy OEM?

Let’s get real. How do you know it works? How do you know it’s gonna work in three years? It’s called test and replace. Once a year you’re suppose test all emergency equipment.... and renew (or replace) if faulty. So the wiener saw should have a wiener sent through it at least once a year..........or you can’t trust it.

It’s just like a smoke Detector. They expire and should be tested once a year. Hopefully you test your smoke detector more than your saw stop. At least then, when your saw stop lights on fire, your smoke detector might save the rest of your family.

When’s the last time you checked your smoke detectors? And your fire extinguishers?

[John Lanciani]

Let’s get real. How do you know it works? How do you know it’s gonna work in three years? It’s called test and replace. Once a year you’re suppose test all emergency equipment.... and renew (or replace) if faulty. So the wiener saw should have a wiener sent through it at least once a year..........or you can’t trust it.

When is the last time you tested and replaced the airbags in your car, or tested your smoke detector with real smoke instead of just pushing the test button? Do you actually test your fire extinguisher or just trust the gauge which might just be stuck on "OK"?

[Charlie Hinton]

I couldn't remember which company had acquired Sawstop but since it's Festool and they are not the kind of company that tries to compete at the commodity level I would not be surprised if the patents SawStop holds are renewed.

[Martin Wasner]

I'm curious what Festo is going to do with Sawstop.

They might've just bought it to park money for a while and won't do anything with it. That happens.

[Brian Nguyen]

Paint all the saws green, and mark up another 25%?


I'm curious what Festo is going to do with Sawstop.

[Simon MacGowen]

I couldn't remember which company had acquired Sawstop but since it's Festool and they are not the kind of company that tries to compete at the commodity level I would not be surprised if the patents SawStop holds are renewed.

On another forum, someone shared that the Festool US is expanding its US manufacturing compound (something like 100% bigger?), but that does not include any provisions for SawStop, It was also shared that before the parent company of Festool bought SawStop, at a Festool event in the EU open to selected vendors that in addition to Festool machines (including a tablesaw), the SawStop was also demonstrated. Attendees at that time were not sure why SawStop was there.

As of today, Festool's parent company is still keeping SawStop as a separate operation with its own management team. What's cooking behind is anyone's guess.

Simon