Box Elder with Flames - How do I best keep the fire going after turning?

[Mark Greenbaum]

A nice lady in Nashville just had a fairly large Box Elder cut down, and asked our club to help remove the wood so it wouldn't go to waste. This tree has flames in every piece. I got about 6 10"-18" diameter sections home last night, and painted the ends. But how do I best keep the fire going after turning? This tree's color is pretty impressive (stressed, no doubt), although I did not notice any bug intrusions. The color was oxidizing out after only a few hours from felling. Suggestions, please.

I think I want to rough turn and wrap in shrink wrap to keep the outside from breathing. Then store away from light until I re-turn. And after re-turning, use Spar Varish (Varathane Polyyurethane by Rustoleum) to help inhibit UV degradation. Is this a good plan?

[Roger Chandler]

A nice lady in Nashville just had a fairly large Box Elder cut down, and asked our club to help remove the wood so it wouldn't go to waste. This tree has flames in every piece. I got about 6 10"-18" diameter sections home last night, and painted the ends. But how do I best keep the fire going after turning? This tree's color is pretty impressive (stressed, no doubt), although I did not notice any bug intrusions. The color was oxidizing out after only a few hours from felling. Suggestions, please.

I think I want to rough turn and wrap in shrink wrap to keep the outside from breathing. Then store away from light until I re-turn. And after re-turning, use Spar Varish (Varathane Polyyurethane by Rustoleum) to help inhibit UV degradation. Is this a good plan?Mark, I have some pretty spectacularly flamed box elder myself. It will fade over time. I’ve had some last for several years, but it inevitably fades.....UNLESS....you can take some red Artisans dye and go over the red in the wood. Some airbrush it, and some take a small artists brush and carefully apply. That is about the only way to make it permanent.

Spar Varnish does have UV inhibitors and can prolong the color, but only for so long. Keeping it out of the light will help, but the things we make are for display, not to hide in the dark!

[William Bachtel]

Control the UV light, UV light is what does it.

[Mark Greenbaum]

Yes, Roger, I've read the people airbrush the red to make it permanent. Seems like like cheating, but I might have to try it to save the colors. I've had limited luck with an old can (1960's) of Varathane Spar Varnish (from my Dad's old workbench, unopened and not rusted). I used it on an urn made at JC Campbell of Ambrosia Maple, and the colors seen to hold for it. Might be different wood, with a different result.

[John K Jordan]

This article focuses on exotic woods but is useful for nearly any wood. Note the section titled "You are fighting a loosing battle" He does suggest dye.

From my reading I've come to believe that both light and oxygen contribute to color change. To prolong color seal well and keep out of the light.

JKJ

[Mark Greenbaum]

This article focuses on exotic woods but is useful for nearly any wood. Note the section titled "You are fighting a loosing battle" He does suggest dye.
From my reading I've come to believe that both light and oxygen contribute to color change. To prolong color seal well and keep out of the light.

JKJ
Thanks, John. That's been my plan. I'll start to rough out an urn this weekend, time permitting. I cannot wait to see what lurks inside behind the bark.

[Pete Staehling]

I have always loved the look of flame in box elder, but so far declined to work with it since I read that fading out was inevitable without using dye. That made me sad and discouraged with regard to this lovely material. Time and time again I have seen some for sale and been tempted, but passed on it. Maybe one of these days I won't be able to resist.

Good luck and enjoy working with this beautiful wood, whether you dye it or not.

[John K Jordan]

I have always loved the look of flame in box elder, but so far declined to work with it since I read that fading out was inevitable without using dye. That made me sad and discouraged with regard to this lovely material.

If you ever get a chance, try to turn some box elder that came from the roots below the ground. The late Lissi Oland gave me some once and most was a brilliant red, deeper than other box elder I've seen. I turned one small piece from it and after more than 10 years it has faded some but still has some color. I do keep it out of direct sunlight. I don't know that wood was special or if other box elder root might be the similar. Might be worth a try.

This is small, about 2" high.
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JKJ

[JohnC Lucas]

I did a test on box elder years ago. I tried about a dozen UV inhibitor finishes including some I would never recommend for wood. When exposed to direct summer sunlight non of them worked. It all turned brown in just 3 days. the spar varnish lasted about 5 but spar varnish is so orange no one would use it on wood pieces. I'm currently doing a test where the Box Elder is only subjected to light coming through the windows of my shop and never direct light. It's been a year now and there hasn't been any color change. I have one piece that sits with one side down and never ever sees the light other than when I pick it up to compare the color to the other piece.
Pieces stored in the house and not in direct sunlight will last a very long time. I'm talking 10 years or more.
The best option if you need to display it in UV light is to airbrush the same color over the existing color. I've done it, and it works. You do need to use inks or dyes that are light fast of course.

[Mark Greenbaum]

I did a test on box elder years ago. I tried about a dozen UV inhibitor finishes including some I would never recommend for wood. When exposed to direct summer sunlight non of them worked. It all turned brown in just 3 days. the spar varnish lasted about 5 but spar varnish is so orange no one would use it on wood pieces. I'm currently doing a test where the Box Elder is only subjected to light coming through the windows of my shop and never direct light. It's been a year now and there hasn't been any color change. I have one piece that sits with one side down and never ever sees the light other than when I pick it up to compare the color to the other piece.
Pieces stored in the house and not in direct sunlight will last a very long time. I'm talking 10 years or more.
The best option if you need to display it in UV light is to airbrush the same color over the existing color. I've done it, and it works. You do need to use inks or dyes that are light fast of course.

Thanks for the info, JohnC and JohnK.

[Alex Zeller]

I went through the same thing with a hardwood deck. To block UV rays there needed to be solids mixed into the finish. The darker the finish the better it worked. The problem is, of course, that you loose what you really want, the natural beauty of the wood to show.

[Mark Greenbaum]

I am placing this here so it might be seen and answered more applicably:

OK - well, I've got the first of many Box Elder vessels near completion. And, I started to slather on MinWax Antique Oil Finish (mistake?), about 3 coats so far. MinWax ON, wipe off excess after a few minutes. It seems to be building, and keeping the color intact, but I keep the lights off and shades closed in the shop. I cannot remember if I ever used this stuff before for woodturnings, so will it build up so I can shine it? Can I put polyurethane over it to gloss it? Does it afford and UV protection for the Box Elder colors?

[Mark Greenbaum]

OK - so, no one answered the post - so I proceeded to add a few more coats of MinWax Antique Oil finish, then dried, and sprayed a few coats of polyurethane. Then after steel wool and cleaning, I added Johnson's Paste wax, and brought to a pretty good luster. Tonight I'll turn it around and finish off the base/foot. I don't thing the reds will persist unless I keep it in a dark place away from daylight, but it's still pretty exciting wood.

[Karl Loeblein]

Mark, Sounds like you made a good choice. It's my understanding UV rays create ozone, and it's this ozone that causes the oxidation (i.e. bleaching) on many woods like FBE. I suspect your oil & polyurethane finish would slow down some ozone/oxygen from reaching the wood as long as you coated all sides and keep piece out of direct lighting.

[Mark Greenbaum]

Finished it up last night. I guess when the darned thing flew off and hit my arm I must've gotten gun shy. The wall is pretty thick at the waist line (like me). 3 coats of MinWax Antique Oil Finish, 3 coats of Rustoleum Clear Polyurethane, and steel wool and Johnson's Paste wax to a shine.

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[JohnC Lucas]

All finishes protect it somewhat. In my tests I tried a whole bunch of finishes and when put under extreme conditions of summer sun all the wood faded within days no matter what finish I put on. To me that suggests the UV is the problem and not oxygen or Ozone.

[Mark Greenbaum]

A lady at Woodcraft today, said there's a General Finishes that has a good UV inhibitor in it. I will look into it, and report back.

[Mike Nathal]

Just FYI, pro turner Jamie Donaldson argues that adding red dye to the flame is ethically preferred. You owe it to your customer to make sure the color when they buy the piece is maintained. Red dye is the only way to prolong the life of the red color.

Also, I prefer to use water-base poly or Deft lacquer spray on flame boxelder. All the oil base finishes (poly, antique oil, danish oil, etc) impart an amber tone that mutes the striking contrast between the white wood and the flame. Even lacquer has some amber tome, but it is less than the others.

[Mark Greenbaum]

A lady at Woodcraft today, said there's a General Finishes that has a good UV inhibitor in it. I will look into it, and report back.
https://generalfinishes.com/sites/default/files/styles/max_650x650/public/images/products/2017-11/gf-product-image-outdoor-oil-clear-quart-closed-1000px-transparent-general-finishes-2017.png?itok=W6iwQFy7Several folks in the TN Association of Woodturners say this will keep the colors alive for 5 years or more.