Limiter shaper tooling (MAN) discussion

[mark mcfarlane]

Background: I'm about to purchase my first shaper tooling for a 5HP Minimax CU300 combo machine with 1 1/4" spindle. I also purchased a Minimax articulating arm to hold a stock feeder (swings out of the way), but haven't installed the 'swing arm' yet (it came with no instructions and I haven't spent the 30 minutes to figure it out).

I don't currently own a stock feeder, and wouldn't mind avoiding the cost, although the swing arm was as expensive as a small stock feeder, so I am half way there...

> I'm trying to select a steel insert head to purchase, and am trying to decide between a MAN rated head with limiters and a more traditional US style insert head without limiters. The head would initially be used without a stock feeder.

Question: If the limiter is ~1mm 'short of' the cutter head, does that mean that the maximum depth of cut is ~1mm per pass? So, it would take 6 passes to cut a 6mm groove? It seems like the limiter insert would 'kick out the wood from the fence' if you tried to make a depth of cut that exceeds the offset between the limiter and cutting knives, but hopefully I am missing something here.

Thanks for the help,

Mark

[brent stanley]

Hi Mark, the better way to think of it is that it limits the amount of material that can be removed in every rotation of the block. But of course since it's doing thousands of rotations per minute, you're just fine. For quality results you find a sweet spot between feeding too slow (burnishing the wood) and too fast which can over tax your machine and/or give you ugly knife marks. The limiter tooling is designed to allow you to work within quite a range of feed speed scenarios and find that sweet spot just fine. Limiter tooling will certainly allow 6mm DOC in one pass if all other factors allow/support it.

B

[brent stanley]

Also, you should note that even if they don't have limiters, any MAN rated tooling will still be chip limiting, it may just use the body of the cutter as the limiter. Which means you're in the same boat regarding feed speeds, chip loading, removal rates per pass etc.

You will definitely want a MAN rated head regardless, especially if you don't have a feeder.

[David Kumm]

If this is your first shaper, buy the feeder first. There is a comfort to getting used to the machine with that big feeder acting as a guard and seeing what speed hits the sweet spot with each cutter. When you get used to that, some hand feeding will happen but I still use the feeder for anything but end copes. Dave

[Van Huskey]

If this is your first shaper, buy the feeder first. There is a comfort to getting used to the machine with that big feeder acting as a guard and seeing what speed hits the sweet spot with each cutter. When you get used to that, some hand feeding will happen but I still use the feeder for anything but end copes. Dave

This^. I need more characters so This^ again.

[brent stanley]

Yup, you'll never regret having a feeder. Get one if you can. There's still a lot of value in MAN rated tooling though, so keep on that path.

B

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, as others have indicated buy the MAN rated tooling, it will cut just as deep and fast as MEC tooling, with far lower risk of kickback and injury.

I also second the stock feeder, safer and superior results.

In the shaper seminars I teach for Felder I also stress the importance of a finger kit to support work past the fence opening, or the use of a solid fence made using the cutter breakthrough method......You're really going to enjoy the shaper.

If you're in Toronto on September 22 I can reserve a spot for you in the seminar:D......Rod.

[Joe Jensen]

If you have only previously used a router table without a feeder, your mind will be blown. But you must have a Feeder.

[Van Huskey]

In the shaper seminars I teach for Felder I also stress the importance of a finger kit to support work past the fence opening,

I wish there were cheaper options for the finger kit. Tooling for extrusions isn't cheap though.

[brent stanley]

I wish there were cheaper options for the finger kit. Tooling for extrusions isn't cheap though.

While the finger kit would be nice, I think the breakthrough fence is even better in some situations as it offers more support (not much difference to be fair) and gives you zero clearance which can help.

[Van Huskey]

While the finger kit would be nice, I think the breakthrough fence is even better in some situations as it offers more support (not much difference to be fair) and gives you zero clearance which can help.

I agree, the only issue it is a pain to make one for one or a few cuts when building furniture. The day I saw a Martin Autolock with an Aigner fence was like the day I saw my first Ferrari. I knew immediately I wanted one but would never have the money and/or justification to buy one.

[Martin Wasner]

Get a feeder. I'm usually the last person to jump on the safety Nazi bandwagon, but it's psychotic in my mind for most operations to feed a shaper by hand.

[Larry Edgerton]

I am always the last person to jump on the Safety Nazi bandwagon, and I agree, get the feeder. Bonus, does a far better job that you can by hand.

[Warren Lake]

we were brought up on hand feeling and I enjoy it. nice sharp cutters and its as enjoyable as using a hand plane at its best. You have better feedback than a feeder because you feel the cutter cutting and you choose the speed unless you have a feeder where you can dial in any speed you want. It offers several advantages for sure. Unless your set up is right on some cuts its not going to do a far better job than by hand. Ive seen stuff off feeders that didnt match what I can do with old cutters and hand fed.

[brent stanley]

I agree, the only issue it is a pain to make one for one or a few cuts when building furniture. The day I saw a Martin Autolock with an Aigner fence was like the day I saw my first Ferrari. I knew immediately I wanted one but would never have the money and/or justification to buy one.

I made one like the one shown in this video and just batch produced a bunch of fence opening filler pieces, so it's pretty quick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4Kqxl1P3EY

B

[Jeff Duncan]

Hmmmm, lots of good advice for sure, however..... everyones jumping on the feeder bandwagon and I don't think I saw anyone ask what your actually going to be shaping? I do a fair amount of different work and definitely give my feeders a workout, but there's plenty of work that they don't get used for as well. In fact my biggest shaper does not have a feeder mounted as it's reserved for hand fed work only. Now first understand that hand fed often means I'm pushing a jig through that the work is attached to. I do a decent amount of curved work that a feeder doesn't always work well for. So I end up having to build jigs to mount the work on and push through for some of it. I also do a lot of pattern "routing" freehand as, well, thats how you do pattern work:rolleyes: Anyway all this to say there is a fair amount of work that gets done sans feeder.

On the other hand.... if your doing straight stock, ie. moldings, door parts, edge profiles, then yeah, a feeder is your friend. Besides the safety factor it's about speed and quality of work. It's very difficult to move stock fast enough continuously by hand for these operations.

good luck,
JeffD

[Van Huskey]

I made one like the one shown in this video and just batch produced a bunch of fence opening filler pieces, so it's pretty quick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4Kqxl1P3EY

B

OK thats genius! Thanks a lot. If anyone wants to go straight to the breakthough section it starts at about 6:55

[brent stanley]

OK thats genius! Thanks a lot. If anyone wants to go straight to the breakthough section it starts at about 6:55
Cool huh? It's easiest if your fence is one piece and runs in slots, but you can make other styles work.

[William Hodge]

Hook up the feeder, and get it working without the cutter running.

Feeding stock by hand allows variaable fence pressure to avoid stock diving into the throat opening on infeed, and sniping on outfeed. To accomplish the same effect with a feeder, I screw a piece if 1/8" x 1" aluminum stock to the wooden fence, over the cutter. the wood bears on the aluminum, and doesn't fall into the cutter. This allows me to run 6" long sash parts over a 4" (5" cutting circle) molder head on a shaper, using a mini feeder. The aluminum doesn't work if you are cutting the entire face of the work piece. The good thing about aluminum stock is that it can be cut by shaper cutters, and is replaceable.

[Mike Cutler]

we were brought up on hand feeling and I enjoy it. nice sharp cutters and its as enjoyable as using a hand plane at its best. You have better feedback than a feeder because you feel the cutter cutting and you choose the speed unless you have a feeder where you can dial in any speed you want. It offers several advantages for sure. Unless your set up is right on some cuts its not going to do a far better job than by hand. Ive seen stuff off feeders that didnt match what I can do with old cutters and hand fed.

I'm glad I'm not the only one like this.
There was a shaper in wood shop from the 7th grade, to the 12th grade, and I don't ever remember seeing a power feeder, even though it was a zillion years ago. I'd like to have one, no argument there, but I don't "need" one.

Mark
If you're new to the shaper, here is probably the best tutorial on the internet. Nothing fancy, just basic operation for a home shop guy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n6yTHMBX54

[brent stanley]

I'm glad I'm not the only one like this.
There was a shaper in wood shop from the 7th grade, to the 12th grade, and I don't ever remember seeing a power feeder, even though it was a zillion years ago. I'd like to have one, no argument there, but I don't "need" one.

Mark


If you're new to the shaper, here is probably the best tutorial on the internet. Nothing fancy, just basic operation for a home shop guy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n6yTHMBX54


Good one Mark, that's a great series. This one combined with the Warwickshire one gives you great ideas for breakthrough fences. I do hand feed when set up like this. An infinitely adjustable power feeder let's you fine tune it very nicely.

The Whitehill block he refers to in there doesn't meet modern standards and isn't sold anymore.

[mark mcfarlane]

Thanks everyone for the input. I'll order a DC40 and smart stand tomorrow along with some MAN tooling. Today I have to paint a wall of new cabinets. The doors can be built later but I need to get the cabinets in service ASAP.

[mark mcfarlane]

...

If you're in Toronto on September 22 I can reserve a spot for you in the seminar:D......Rod.

Thanks Rod for the kind offer, but I can't make it. Too many vacations already this year :). It does sound like a good idea though.

[Warren Lake]

Mike

we didnt have a feeder and likely not ideal for what we did at the time. I remember standing over a shaper that sounded like a 747 at the airport shaping an oval mirror frame. The jig had only two handles one on each end. We put free knives into a ball bearing head on set up, knives were serrated heads were Winconsin. Wish I remembered what RPM they ran it at at the time, 3,500 RPM the number ive been told is max. It was pretty unnerving. big old cabinetmaker real deal standing over you as you tried to not let him see your arms shaking :) I always thought that jig was made wrong it should have been a matching shape so you could do hand over hand. The way it was with a handle at each end was really awkward as you changed hands. Knives were thrown once while I as there. Then years later one maniac did it at least a few times while i was there.

I think of the old guy he said they had two shaper operators (400 plus employees that shop) and the two guys worked in a room by themselves doing big church windows with huge cutters. Said they were laid out on the floor as at times they were so large.

[brent stanley]

Completely unguarded and I think the knives project too much (but that's hard to tell for sure) and some sketchy methods.....but at least he's using limiter tooling!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yea9VsRd8hU&t=12s

B

[Rod Sheridan]

Thanks Rod for the kind offer, but I can't make it. Too many vacations already this year :). It does sound like a good idea though.

yeah, it's a fair hike from your house.

Probably cooler though.............Regards, Rod.

P.S. If you don't have this book, it's well worth purchasing. It's the only modern book I've found on shapers.
https://www.amazon.ca/Spindle-Moulder-Handbook-Eric-Stephenson/dp/0854421505/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_bdcrb_top?ie=UTF8

[Jared Sankovich]

Thanks everyone for the input. I'll order a DC40 and smart stand tomorrow along with some MAN tooling. Today I have to paint a wall of new cabinets. The doors can be built later but I need to get the cabinets in service ASAP.

If I buy a new feeder it will be the dc40

[Rod Sheridan]

At least he has nice lead-in ramps on the jigs..................Rod.

[brent stanley]

At least he has nice lead-in ramps on the jigs..................Rod.

He did, but they weren't well designed because if you notice on some of them, he was actually milling part of the lead in ramps when he started. Much less helpful this way.....

[William Hodge]

Completely unguarded and I think the knives project too much (but that's hard to tell for sure) and some sketchy methods.....but at least he's using limiter tooling!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yea9VsRd8hU&t=12s

B

The worst part about the video is that the operator could have been climb cutting with a stock feeder.Just tilt the feeder so one wheel his the work, and set the angle of that wheel to press against a (preferably metal, not plywood) rub bearing. Those jigs would work fine with a feeder. The tight inside "U" shaped molding was particularly prone to turning into a merry-go-round if the work bounced.

[Mark Bolton]

Ill be another one to chime in on the feeder first. I was chatting with Martin the other day and in part of the conversation was the fact that no matter how long youve been running a shaper, the times you have to manual feed should always pucker you up a little bit. Even though the feeder is a painful expense, once you rip off that bandaid it will be the best thing youve ever put in your shop. The shear reduction in operator fatigue and stress alone is worth it. Cut quality, cutter life, safety, it just goes on and on. There are still things that have to be hand fed but to be honest its super rare for us. I wouldnt even buy a shaper without a dedicated feeder period

[brent stanley]

The worst part about the video is that the operator could have been climb cutting with a stock feeder.Just tilt the feeder so one wheel his the work, and set the angle of that wheel to press against a (preferably metal, not plywood) rub bearing. Those jigs would work fine with a feeder. The tight inside "U" shaped molding was particularly prone to turning into a merry-go-round if the work bounced.

That inside curve made me clench!

[Mark Bolton]

That inside curve made me clench!

If you just watch his face you can see that he is clenching as well. I remember watching that one a long while back and thinking if that were me I'd be just like him and trying to get through them all while I had the nerve. They were all set up well but it seems no matter what when you stare at that cutter block for a second or two it would be very easy to shut the machine down and say, lets go have another cup of coffee and think this through one more time.

I always remember an instance in my late 20's. Had a friend with a large circle saw mill. 54" blade, Cat Diesel power unit. I would help him saw on rare occasions. I was standing at the end of the feed and was in a bit of a fixed stare looking at the blade and I remember clearly shuddering and shaking my head and shoulders as I snapped out of it. He over at the setworks getting the log ready and watched me and he burst out laughing and nodded at me. Reading his lips he say laughingly "you just thought about it didnt you?!". We both laughed knowing that I had thought man-o-man, if someone tripped or lost their footing and fell into a wide open, unguarded, 54" saw blade..

I have a similar shudder often times at the table saw, shaper, bandsaw,..

[Mark Bolton]

Thanks everyone for the input. I'll order a DC40 and smart stand tomorrow along with some MAN tooling. Today I have to paint a wall of new cabinets. The doors can be built later but I need to get the cabinets in service ASAP.

We have a DC40 on one machine that we change up often. Super nice feeder. Be ready, its massive and the smart stand is equally massive.

[Mike Cutler]

Mike

we didnt have a feeder and likely not ideal for what we did at the time. I remember standing over a shaper that sounded like a 747 at the airport shaping an oval mirror frame. The jig had only two handles one on each end. We put free knives into a ball bearing head on set up, knives were serrated heads were Winconsin. Wish I remembered what RPM they ran it at at the time, 3,500 RPM the number ive been told is max. It was pretty unnerving. big old cabinetmaker real deal standing over you as you tried to not let him see your arms shaking :) I always thought that jig was made wrong it should have been a matching shape so you could do hand over hand. The way it was with a handle at each end was really awkward as you changed hands. Knives were thrown once while I as there. Then years later one maniac did it at least a few times while i was there.

I think of the old guy he said they had two shaper operators (400 plus employees that shop) and the two guys worked in a room by themselves doing big church windows with huge cutters. Said they were laid out on the floor as at times they were so large.

Warren
Kind of the same here. I went through school in the 70's and everyone was kind of making the same types of projects. I don't think a Jr. High/High School kid would have the discipline to make an entire cabinet set. Maybe that's why there was no power feeder.
A lot of guys were trying making their own guitars. You could buy an old Silvertone, Kay, or Tedesco, at a swap meet for $5.00. Take the neck off and try to make you own Gibson SG copy. We used to make these really stupid mirrors with black lights in them also. Why we thought adding a fish tank bulb to a mirror was cool, I don't remember, but we did. Those were the kind of projects we were using the shaper for. Black light poster frames were popular too. I bet our parents laughed themselves silly at the junk were making. Better than the resins, plastics, and ceramics classes. About 90% of the projects coming out of those classes was, well, lets just say you could call them were very "arty" pipes. ;)
It was a lot of fun and I don't remember anyone getting too terribly hurt, so we must have learned something useful. I doubt there exist classes like those any longer. Too bad really.
If I had to do a lot of work with a shaper, I'd definitely get a power feeder. The safety and quality aspects, just can't be argued.

[Warren Lake]

mike i worked in a music store for four years, we sold most stuff. I had a tele a 335 and an ES-150. I got to handle lots of guitars and many brands. I always liked SG something comfortable about that guitar and nice body style. Thats neat they let you do that, I took a transmission night course once and the teacher let me bring in an M21 and rebuild it in class. Even told me where to get top brand parts at wholesale prices. Ah the good old days before the red tape brigade arrived.

The two old guys I knew when working in their own shops never had feeders. They both did excellent work. Never thought to ask them but know they didnt need them cause they learned in a different time and way and maybe the type of work they did. They had a whole pile of jigs and different add on fence things, usually stuff made out of scrap wood or plywood and usually pretty simple. One or two of those jigs did stuff the feeder does and it just left the hand fed motion which isnt that hard. Id be lying if I said I didnt enjoy hand feeding though, smaller profile and sharp knifes and nice shavings come off and its quiet.

I have them they are good. They do stuff lots of stuff really well. Know id appreciate one of he newer fancy dancy ones on the nice arm. Have a few brands of older european ones and maneuvering them around to where you need they are not very user friendly.

[Mike Cutler]

Warren

I started out on the bass guitar, eventually I also ended up on the guitar.
The SG's were pretty $$$$ back in the 70's in So.Cal, but a new company from Japan was releasing SG and Les Paul copies, Ibanez. I probably owned at one time three of the original series Ibanez guitars brought to the states. Wish I still had them $$$$. I still have a '77 Artist EQ with a single factory phase shifter. It used to be Mackey Feary's guitar, at least that's the way the story goes, from his time with the band Kalapana.
I worked in guitar stores also and used to teach Jazz/Fusion.
Yeah, we had some pretty cool shop teachers. Once you got beyond the compulsory projects, they pretty much gave us free reign to pick a project. Had some fairly talented 13-17 year olds in those classes.

[Mark Hennebury]

Talk of school shops takes me back;

I went to school in England back in the 60"s we had a wood shop and a metal shop, i don't recall if we had a shaper in the woodshop. In metal shop we had some big lathes and a forge, i liked working on both.
They let me make a crossbow for a project; i made trigger mechanism in the metal shop and the stock in the woodshop, and i purchased a 100lb pull bowprod from B&P Barnett for it. When it was finished i was out in the playground firing it. It was strong enough to put a bolt through 2" of pine and poke out the back. Somehow i don't think that it would pass these days.

The only serous accident that i recall was i guy cut a finger tip off on the horizontal bandsaw in the metal shop, and the kids were throwing it around at each other. Ahh... the good old days.

I have a couple of power feeders, and like them, and wouldn't be without them, makes it easy to do occasional climb cutting also. but once in a while i do some hand feeding, it all depends.

[mark mcfarlane]

My DC40 has been ordered. Should arrive in about 5 days.

Another question on the tooling.

I'm looking at Whitehill's steel 1 1/4" 125mm * 55mm combi MAN rated head (http://www.whitehill-tools.com/catalogue.php?pid=2507&cid=2&c2id=60). 'Combi' in this context means the head includes rebate knives and knickers.



Can one also use 40mm knives on this head?
Can you use 40mm knives without the limiters?


I'm thinking that, for some quick one-off projects where I need to run 5-10 feet of trim..., it would be nice to be able to use some locally available, inexpensive 40mm knives rather than always buying 55 knives and limiters.

Cheers.

[brent stanley]

My DC40 has been ordered. Should arrive in about 5 days.

Another question on the tooling.

I'm looking at Whitehill's steel 1 1/4" 125mm * 55mm combi MAN rated head (http://www.whitehill-tools.com/catalogue.php?pid=2507&cid=2&c2id=60). 'Combi' in this context means the head includes rebate knives and knickers.



Can one also use 40mm knives on this head?
Can you use 40mm knives without the limiters?


I'm thinking that, for some quick one-off projects where I need to run 5-10 feet of trim..., it would be nice to be able to use some locally available, inexpensive 40mm knives rather than always buying 55 knives and limiters.

Cheers.

Hi Mark, I've done it before I had my smaller head, but there's very little projecting beyond the body of the larger head once it's secured in there so not all of the 40mm knives would work. You can run their 55mm knives in the smaller combi head though if you want but there's a bit of unsupported steel there and you have to be careful. The smaller combi head only had spurs on one side though and only takes the thinner steel. The larger combi head takes the thinner AND the thicker steel giving you more options and has spurs on the bottom as well. When I was agonizing over which one to get, David told me that they sell far more of the larger heads because it's so much more versatile.

B

[brent stanley]

Mark, their catalogue has more information and diagrams than their web page. I took a couple pictures of the combi head section for you.

B

390764

[brent stanley]

390765

The small combi head on the previous page.

[Mike Delyster]

I wish there were cheaper options for the finger kit. Tooling for extrusions isn't cheap though.

I’m a little late to the discussion, but I’ve used the Felder/Hammer Safety Bar kit on a couple of shapers.
Not as handy as the Aigner, but not as costly either. I believe SCM all so make bars similar to these.
http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/en-US/Moulding/Accessories/For-Your-Safety/Safety-bar-guide-self-construction-set.html

Here are a couple of pictures, I all so make breakthrough inserts to put in place of the bars similar to what Brent does.

[Jared Sankovich]

My DC40 has been ordered. Should arrive in about 5 days.

Another question on the tooling.

I'm looking at Whitehill's steel 1 1/4" 125mm * 55mm combi MAN rated head (http://www.whitehill-tools.com/catalogue.php?pid=2507&cid=2&c2id=60). 'Combi' in this context means the head includes rebate knives and knickers.



Can one also use 40mm knives on this head?
Can you use 40mm knives without the limiters?


I'm thinking that, for some quick one-off projects where I need to run 5-10 feet of trim..., it would be nice to be able to use some locally available, inexpensive 40mm knives rather than always buying 55 knives and limiters.

Cheers.

I would pick up an additional cmt or amana 100mm head just for this purpose. They are cheap and work well. If you are trying to tool up inexpensively for short runs (and didn't plan on sourcing limiters anyway)

[mark mcfarlane]

Thanks Brent.

Mike, that looks like a pretty useful set of safety bars. I like that you can have a bar below the profile. I think I'll probably modify my existing fence so it is easier to add custom zero clearance inserts.

Jared, that sounds like the best solution, to just buy a 100mm * 40mm head when I need to add a quick profile. Amazon can get one to me in a couple of days :).

Thanks everyone, as always, for the excellent help. Now I need to go call Whitehill.

[Mike Delyster]

I should add that the Felder/Hammer safety bars come with the hardware to mount them to thier aluminum fence as well as hardware to add them to a wood fence as I have done.
I've seen a picture of an SCM version of these bars somewhere before, just don't remember where.
I don't have a SCM/Minimax retailer anywhere near me that I know of, but there is a Felder dealer about an hour away so that was the easy way for me.

I end up doing lots of one off stuff in my shop and find this quicker and easier than making breakthrough inserts for short runs.

[brent stanley]

I was surprised at how affordable those safety bars are from Felder. This thread got me on their web page which is very dangerous...

Brent

[David Kumm]

The Felder safety bars fit well with Freeborn panel raising cutters. The Felder spindle bushings are fairly large diameter so the bars need to be fairly thin in depth to get clearance for the cutter and my 7/16" tongue. I have Aigner plates but just clamp on my Felder bars screwed to my subfence for panels. Pretty cheap and easier than replacing the bushings with a smaller diameter. Dave

[Rod Sheridan]

I was surprised at how affordable those safety bars are from Felder. This thread got me on their web page which is very dangerous...

Brent

Ha, it's all a plot by Felder, they lure you in, then like the Borg, resistance will be futile.

I added those to my shaper, as well as to a friend's shaper.

They're great, easy to use, quick to install..............Rod.

[Mike Delyster]

I added those to my shaper, as well as to a friend's shaper.

They're great, easy to use, quick to install..............Rod.

When I first seen yours I thought it was a great idea. Then when I found out you could fit them to a wood fence I was sold. Thanks for that.

Did your friend all so have the Felder aluminum fence?

[Mike Delyster]

I was surprised at how affordable those safety bars are from Felder. This thread got me on their web page which is very dangerous...

Brent

You will have to try a set now.

[Van Huskey]

I’m a little late to the discussion, but I’ve used the Felder/Hammer Safety Bar kit on a couple of shapers.
Not as handy as the Aigner, but not as costly either. I believe SCM all so make bars similar to these.
http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/en-US/Moulding/Accessories/For-Your-Safety/Safety-bar-guide-self-construction-set.html

Here are a couple of pictures, I all so make breakthrough inserts to put in place of the bars similar to what Brent does.

This is what I love about SMC, even thread jacks bring tons of great information, that and it helps me spend my money, however, that part I usually don't have much trouble with...

You answered in a followup that they add the hardware to connect to a wood fence which is great and I was going to ask how much trouble it was. Plus with the tenon you can switch from fingers to breakthrough quickly and painlessly. Thanks for the post!!!

[brent stanley]

This is what I love about SMC, even thread jacks bring tons of great information, that and it helps me spend my money, however, that part I usually don't have much trouble with...

You answered in a followup that they add the hardware to connect to a wood fence which is great and I was going to ask how much trouble it was. Plus with the tenon you can switch from fingers to breakthrough quickly and painlessly. Thanks for the post!!!


Exactly, this is great information! My wife has my wallet hidden somewhere though. She saw the look on my face when I was looking at the Felder site and somehow knew what was up. Gotta work on the poker face.....

[mark mcfarlane]

I should add that the Felder/Hammer safety bars come with the hardware to mount them to thier aluminum fence as well as hardware to add them to a wood fence as I have done.
I've seen a picture of an SCM version of these bars somewhere before, just don't remember where.
I don't have a SCM/Minimax retailer anywhere near me that I know of, but there is a Felder dealer about an hour away so that was the easy way for me.

I end up doing lots of one off stuff in my shop and find this quicker and easier than making breakthrough inserts for short runs.

The price is right ($58) but 4-8 weeks delivery is sad. Did people order the 3mm or 6mm versions?
Is that the depth of the bars, or the height of them?

[Larry Edgerton]

I have come close to ordering the Whitehall head several times if for no other reason than they have a huge selection of cutters, and some very attractive profiles that don't show up on this side of the pond. I just bought a grinder so no real need now but I am still curious, if you get one post your impressions. Nice feeder you picked up, nice going from vertical to horizontal with that type.

Have fun.......

[Mike Delyster]

The price is right ($58) but 4-8 weeks delivery is sad. Did people order the 3mm or 6mm versions?
Is that the depth of the bars, or the height of them?

I think you are looking at different parts than what I was talking about.
Here try this link again:http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/en-US/Moulding/Accessories/For-Your-Safety/Safety-bar-guide-self-construction-set.html

You want the Safety Bar Guide Self-Construction Set.
It comes with both two 1/4” (6mm) and two 1/8” (3mm) bars. As well as the hardware to install it.
The 1/4” and 1/8” is height of the bars.

[Mark Bolton]

I think he was looking at the add-on bars on the following page.

[mark mcfarlane]

I think you are looking at different parts than what I was talking about.
Here try this link again:http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/en-US/Moulding/Accessories/For-Your-Safety/Safety-bar-guide-self-construction-set.html

You want the Safety Bar Guide Self-Construction Set.
It comes with both two 1/4” (6mm) and two 1/8” (3mm) bars. As well as the hardware to install it.
The 1/4” and 1/8” is height of the bars.


Apparently I was looking at the add-on bars that Mark mentioned. Looks like I'll modify my current fence to easily take wood ZCIs.

[Warren Lake]

I haven looked up what you guys are talking about but one thing about shaper fences is they are annoying. Ive had a number of them and they are never parrellel to each other and both square to the table. When you make them right and are back using them the next time they are off again. One thing about a break through fence is its straight and one line. I like that aspect of it. Fences im talking about on different machines mostly SCM and one poitras on my first shaper.

[mark mcfarlane]

I have come close to ordering the Whitehall head several times if for no other reason than they have a huge selection of cutters, and some very attractive profiles that don't show up on this side of the pond. I just bought a grinder so no real need now but I am still curious, if you get one post your impressions. Nice feeder you picked up, nice going from vertical to horizontal with that type.

Have fun.......

I'm rethinking the Whitehall head. I corresponded with them today, its 6-7 days before they can ship, and another week for me to receive the package, and $53 to ship. That's a total of $362 for the insert head with a single T&G profile of knives/limiters.

I've asked what the shipping is for a set of knives/limiters by themselves. If it's over $10 I may go a different way. Requiring both knives and limiters for every profile, then adding international shipping and the delay, makes getting new profiles quite expensive for a hobby shop. I need to build 8 cabinet doors now, maybe 30-40 more of the same T&G profile in the next few years, then I'm done with building cabinet doors.

Since I bought a power feeder, I'm thinking (perhaps incorrectly) that I don't need a MAN head with limiters. Or maybe I should bite the bullet and get the Whitehall set. The money itself isn't a deal breaker, but there is a belt sander somewhere calling my name, and money is money...

Amana has a set of carbide T&G heads with an adjustable groove widt (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001MQ560A/?coliid=I3GM6360OTQBGJ&colid=2MX6NNPHAO36&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it)h that meets my immediate needs, and I can have them in a few days. The adjustable groove seems like a helpful feature. I'd still end up eventually buying a 40mm insert head, but probably one from Amana without limiters.

Anyway, that's what I'm thinking today, tomorrow may be different.... This 'first shaper head' decision has been more of a struggle than I expected.

[Warren Lake]

you could also make mortise and tennon using your table saw and delay your purchase to think about it. Better door anyway especially that 50 inch one.

[brent stanley]

If you're ok with it, you don't neeeed limiters with every profile. They can just send you the cutters. Remember, with the combi head you're also buying a fully featured, shear cut rebate block which you'll want some day anyway.

They must have to make that block for you. I guess they're out of their stock pile.

There are grinding services that people can recommend. You could just buy a stack of blanks, and have a profile ground for you when you need it. Might be faster, I Don't know.

B

[Jared Sankovich]

I'm rethinking the Whitehall head. I corresponded with them today, its 6-7 days before they can ship, and another week for me to receive the package, and $53 to ship. That's a total of $362 for the insert head with a single T&G profile of knives/limiters.

I've asked what the shipping is for a set of knives/limiters by themselves. If it's over $10 I may go a different way. Requiring both knives and limiters for every profile, then adding international shipping and the delay, makes getting new profiles quite expensive for a hobby shop. I need to build 8 cabinet doors now, maybe 30-40 more of the same T&G profile in the next few years, then I'm done with building cabinet doors.

Since I bought a power feeder, I'm thinking (perhaps incorrectly) that I don't need a MAN head with limiters. Or maybe I should bite the bullet and get the Whitehall set. The money itself isn't a deal breaker, but there is a belt sander somewhere calling my name, and money is money...

Amana has a set of carbide T&G heads with an adjustable groove widt (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001MQ560A/?coliid=I3GM6360OTQBGJ&colid=2MX6NNPHAO36&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it)h that meets my immediate needs, and I can have them in a few days. The adjustable groove seems like a helpful feature. I'd still end up eventually buying a 40mm insert head, but probably one from Amana without limiters.

Anyway, that's what I'm thinking today, tomorrow may be different.... This 'first shaper head' decision has been more of a struggle than I expected.

Getting a grasp on shaper tooling from just reading on the internet can be very frustrating.

I would get the amana t&g set and a standard 40*100 head. You may still want the Whitehill block in the future and you could always get it if you feel the other heads were limited in what you wanted to do.

I don't have a limiter head and wouldn't but one for that reason alone.

[brent stanley]

I'm rethinking the Whitehall head. I corresponded with them today, its 6-7 days before they can ship, and another week for me to receive the package, and $53 to ship. That's a total of $362 for the insert head with a single T&G profile of knives/limiters.

I've asked what the shipping is for a set of knives/limiters by themselves. If it's over $10 I may go a different way. Requiring both knives and limiters for every profile, then adding international shipping and the delay, makes getting new profiles quite expensive for a hobby shop. I need to build 8 cabinet doors now, maybe 30-40 more of the same T&G profile in the next few years, then I'm done with building cabinet doors.

Since I bought a power feeder, I'm thinking (perhaps incorrectly) that I don't need a MAN head with limiters. Or maybe I should bite the bullet and get the Whitehall set. The money itself isn't a deal breaker, but there is a belt sander somewhere calling my name, and money is money...

Amana has a set of carbide T&G heads with an adjustable groove widt (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001MQ560A/?coliid=I3GM6360OTQBGJ&colid=2MX6NNPHAO36&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it)h that meets my immediate needs, and I can have them in a few days. The adjustable groove seems like a helpful feature. I'd still end up eventually buying a 40mm insert head, but probably one from Amana without limiters.

Anyway, that's what I'm thinking today, tomorrow may be different.... This 'first shaper head' decision has been more of a struggle than I expected.


I guess the way I think of it is, if you're doing limited runs of things, you're probably better off not buying "one trick ponies" dedicated for that task. If you think you'll be done with the cabinet doors after this, then you'll be stuck with the dedicated $273 Amana T&G heads that you'll never use again. I suppose you could sell them afterwards and get some of your money back. Once you own a head that takes replaceable knives (Amana, CMT, Whitehill whatever), each short run project only costs you the price of the knives, and if the project is short run, HSS will certainly last. I asked Whitehill what run length people are getting from their steel and they said you could expect 1000m (3280ft) in softwood before sharpening. Even if you cut that in half for hardwood, that's plenty for hobby scale use.

You could get HSS T&G knives for a head that are custom ground for the panel material thickness you are using, or you could get off the shelf knives cheaper and modify the thickness of your panel on the back side to fit. If you have the combi head, you could use the rebate block to modify the panel thickness where it fits into the groove. Then you may well be done with those knives, but at least you don't have a lot of money invested in something that gathers dust on your shelf Instead you have a head sitting there that is ready for your next shaper project, whatever that may be.

I'm not a safety nut bar but I will say that MAN rated tooling is a regulatory requirement even for machines with power feeders in much of Europe and has been for a while. A power feeder won't shield you from everything if something goes wrong, that's why they are required. I will personally run non-MAN rated stuff occasionally with a power feeder, but I won't ask anyone else to.

[mark mcfarlane]

Thanks Warren, Jared, and Brent. I went ahead and paid for the Whitehall head this morning. The heads are in stock, the profile I ordered has a 2-3 day delay. Shipping for future separate profiles is around $6, which is reasonable.

Brent, I'm curious if you have tried just using knives without limiters on this head. I'm thinking it is possible that the wedge won't hold/fit properly if it doesn't have a chunk of metal on each side, depending on the depth of the wedge.

Thanks again everyone for you help. The DC40, MAN head and 'Rod's favorite Shaper book' are all on their way. I should have time to read the book before the MAN head arrives.

[mark mcfarlane]

.... If you have the combi head, you could use the rebate block to modify the panel thickness where it fits into the groove. ...

That's my plan, and actually the 'free rebate' feature is what tipped me in favor of the Whitehall combi head. Thank's Brent for your patience and for helping me think this through in public. I can now go forward and overthink whatever my next decision is :). Being new to retirement has allowed me to spend way too much time pondering sh*t.

[brent stanley]

Thanks Warren, Jared, and Brent. I went ahead and paid for the Whitehall head this morning. The heads are in stock, the profile I ordered has a 2-3 day delay. Shipping for future separate profiles is around $6, which is reasonable.

Brent, I'm curious if you have tried just using knives without limiters on this head. I'm thinking it is possible that the wedge won't hold/fit properly if it doesn't have a chunk of metal on each side, depending on the depth of the wedge.

Thanks again everyone for you help. The DC40, MAN head and 'Rod's favorite Shaper book' are all on their way. I should have time to read the book before the MAN head arrives.

Which of the heads did you end up getting? I've done it on both heads actually, but I try not to get into the habit of it! You are correct that the wedge won't work without something in the limiter slot. When I've done it, I just use a very short limiter from another profile, (you have to be careful that none of the other limiter's profile extends out too far!) but if that doesn't work, I ground down another knife to work as a short blank. Essentially what I try to do is put something in there that will still sorta work as a bit of a limiter. Even if it's crude and not up to official limiter spec, since you need something in there anyway.....might as well. I keep meaning to grind down a bunch of knives straight across at different projections to use for this, but haven't gotten around to it.

One thing I forgot to mention too is that ever since I got the rebate block for the shaper, I never use the table saw with dado stack for rebates anymore. It is so much faster, safer and cleaner with the rebate block on the shaper. Once you get into that groove you're really going to be glad you have the rebate block. Since it's shear cut it works great as a pattern miller too if you have a template bearing for it.

I expect you're going to love it and you're going to love your shaper.

B

[Mark Bolton]

The DC40, MAN head and 'Rod's favorite Shaper book' are all on their way.

Couple heads up-s on the DC40 when you get it based on our experience.

Make sure you really clean the columns really well with laquer thinner as well as the internals of the rack and pinion column castings and gears. Ours came with a lot of grease in the rack and pinion assemblies and it wasnt cosmoline/shipping rust inhibitor. The grease over time migrates out into and onto the columns and will start to give you fits with slippage if your really pulling hard. The DC40 is so long, and the smart stand is so large, that the compound leverage is huge. We have pulled the columns off a couple times and wiped them down completely and swabbed out the castings getting more grease out each time.

The elevation casting knuckle was the worst culprit for us. Its clenchced onto the horizontal column with 2 bolts and that knuckle is open internally to the elevation rack and pinion. Over time and adjusting that knuckle for angular feeding (not flat to the table or fence) the grease gets out onto that horizontal column and will allow it to slip. The last time we cleaned it out real well we took some sand paper and taped off the horizontal column and put some light sanding scratches along the long axis of the column to give that knuckle a little more to bite onto and havent had any issues since.

Also, when you setup the smart stand think about your work and whether you swivel more often or adjust the horizontal column projection more often. We swivel dozens of times a day and I believe the manual shows the swivel lock on the main column on the inside of the mast. We pulled the horizontal column and spun that around so the lock lever for the mast is on the outbound side of the machine. Much handier.

Also had to pull the stud from the swivel assy on the feeder and put a touch of removable locktite on it because it would twist a bit over time.

Last, we ordered new wheels from western roller straight away. Our stock wheels were terrible. Our feeder came with what seemed to be an upgrade and rather than the T wrench in the videos to remove the wheels ours have small cast wing nuts holding the wheels on. When our rollers came from Western they were a cast poly hub not metal. We didnt mind that but they can tend to work the wingnut loose over time for some reason. Dont know if the stock hubs do the same because we never run them.
**Edit** P.S. Forgot to mention that the cast poly hubs have a thicker rim than the factory pot metal hubs. So our wing-nuts to hold the wheels on wouldnt fit inside the Western Roller hubs. We took them over to the belt sander and had to take a couple millimeters off the ends of each wing to get them to fit in the poly hubs. Western may have since started making cast hubs for these but I dont know.

Great feeder all around though for a machine that sees constant setup changes throughout the day. I'd never spend the money on one for a fixed situation but its a money maker if you do constant changeups.

[brent stanley]

Great advice and pointer Mark.....this will help a lot of people out.

[mark mcfarlane]

Which of the heads did you end up getting? I've done it on both heads actually, but I try not to get into the habit of it! You are correct that the wedge won't work without something in the limiter slot. When I've done it, I just use a very short limiter from another profile, (you have to be careful that none of the other limiter's profile extends out too far!) but if that doesn't work, I ground down another knife to work as a short blank. Essentially what I try to do is put something in there that will still sorta work as a bit of a limiter. Even if it's crude and not up to official limiter spec, since you need something in there anyway.....might as well. I keep meaning to grind down a bunch of knives straight across at different projections to use for this, but haven't gotten around to it.

One thing I forgot to mention too is that ever since I got the rebate block for the shaper, I never use the table saw with dado stack for rebates anymore. It is so much faster, safer and cleaner with the rebate block on the shaper. Once you get into that groove you're really going to be glad you have the rebate block. Since it's shear cut it works great as a pattern miller too if you have a template bearing for it.

I expect you're going to love it and you're going to love your shaper.

B

I ordered the 125mm steel combi head. Not the recessed one. I doubt I'll ever order another spindle/arbor, unless a used one falls in my lap. SCMI is very proud of theirs, it was $600 to add a 1/2 collet arbor, which I did not do.

[brent stanley]

I ordered the 125mm steel combi head. Not the recessed one. I doubt I'll ever order another spindle/arbor, unless a used one falls in my lap. SCMI is very proud of theirs, it was $600 to add a 1/2 collet arbor, which I did not do.

If you ever did want it, any competent machine shop could do the counter bore on your head for you easily anyway.

B

[mark mcfarlane]

Couple heads up-s on the DC40 when you get it based on our experience.

Make sure you really clean the columns really well with laquer thinner as well as the internals of the rack and pinion column castings and gears. Ours came with a lot of grease in the rack and pinion assemblies and it wasnt cosmoline/shipping rust inhibitor. The grease over time migrates out into and onto the columns and will start to give you fits with slippage if your really pulling hard. The DC40 is so long, and the smart stand is so large, that the leverage is huge. We have pulled the columns off a couple times and wiped them down completely and swabbed out the castings getting more grease out each time.

The elevation casting knuckle was the worst culprit for us. Its clenchced onto the horizontal column with 2 bolts and that knuckle is open internally to the elevation rack and pinion. Over time and adjusting that knuckle for angular feeding (not flat to the table or fence) the grease gets out onto that horizontal column and will allow it to slip. The last time we cleaned it out real well we took some sand paper and taped off the horizontal column and put some light sanding scratches along the long axis of the column to give that knuckle a little more to bite onto and havent had any issues since.

Also, when you setup the smart stand think about your work and whether you swivel more often or adjust the horizontal column projection more often. We swivel dozens of times a day and I believe the manual shows the swivel lock on the main column on the inside of the mast. We pulled the horizontal column and spun that around so the lock lever for the mast is on the outbound side of the machine. Much hander.

Also had to pull the stud from the swivel assy on the feeder and put a touch of removable locktite on it because it would twist a bit over time.

Last, we ordered new wheels from western roller straight away. Our stock wheels were terrible. Our feeder came with what seemed to be an upgrade and rather than the T wrench in the videos to remove the wheels ours have small cast wing nuts holding the wheels on. When our rollers came from Western they were a cast poly hub not metal. We didnt mind that but they can tend to work the wingnut loose over time for some reason. Dont know if the stock hubs do the same because we never run them.
**Edit** P.S. Forgot to mention that the cast poly hubs have a thicker rim than the factory pot metal hubs. So our wing-nuts to hold the wheels on wouldnt fit inside the Western Roller hubs. We took them over to the belt sander and had to take a couple millimeters off the ends of each wing to get them to fit in the poly hubs. Western may have since started making cast hubs for these but I dont know.

Great feeder all around though for a machine that sees constant setup changes throughout the day. I'd never spend the money on one for a fixed situation but its a money maker if you do constant changeups.

Thanks Mark for all the great tips. I'll go through these when I commission the feeder.

I did order 3 poly wheels and a pair of split poly wheels in my initial order. I just need to decide which location put the split wheels, 2 or 3rd position from the infeed side. ShopGear offered me the full width poly wheels for half price in my initial order, which I expect is their cost. They are working with Comatic to try to be able to get new feeders from the factory with the poly wheels installed, since that is what everyone wants. They were hopeful that they can sell the feeders with factory installed poly wheels 'next year'.

[Mike Delyster]

If you ever did want it, any competent machine shop could do the counter bore on your head for you easily anyway.

B

Can you fit the 40mm and 50mm pin knives that are common in North America (Amana, CMT, Dimar and others) in the Whitehill combi head?

[brent stanley]

Can you fit the 40mm and 50mm pin knives that are common in North America (Amana, CMT, Dimar and others) in the Whitehill combi head?

The small combi head is designed for those knives, and though they will fit in the larger one, there's so little projection beyond the body of the head, much of the profile is buried. I will put a knife in my larger one and take a picture. Give me a little time to go get the head.

B

[Mark Bolton]

Thanks Mark for all the great tips. I'll go through these when I commission the feeder.

I did order 3 poly wheels and a pair of split poly wheels in my initial order. I just need to decide which location put the split wheels, 2 or 3rd position from the infeed side. ShopGear offered me the full width poly wheels for half price in my initial order, which I expect is their cost. They are working with Comatic to try to be able to get new feeders from the factory with the poly wheels installed, since that is what everyone wants. They were hopeful that they can sell the feeders with factory installed poly wheels 'next year'.

Thats interesting to hear. The entire industry has never been able to figure out why comatic ships its feeders with dog poop wheels to begin with (which means every other rebranded feeder has the same crappy wheels). I also made the mistake of ordering a few split wheels with the feeder and should have held off and gotten them from western. That said, when we do need a split wheel its usually more for hold down and less for driving the work so we just use the stock mustard yellow split wheels. I dont know why Shopgear woudnt just force Comatic to ship the feeders sans wheels and pull them in from Western in bulk.

I mentioned it in another post, and Im sure most people will cringe, but I will tell you one nice thing about the Western Roller wheels with the poly hub. If you get a really tough to feed/hold profile you can litterally just let the cutter machine away the tire and any portion of the hub (within reason of course keeping strength/integrity in mind) and it will allow for 100% wheel contact on profile. Basically the tire and the hub get machined to the exact cutter profile.

Its rare for us but we have done it a couple times and it has left it in my mind to ask Western to supply these wheels on future work where we may have the same issue. Basically would allow you to have your center two wheels somewhat nested around the cutter with the profile dead accurate machined into the wheel profile.

[brent stanley]

Thats interesting to hear. The entire industry has never been able to figure out why comatic ships its feeders with dog poop wheels to begin with (which means every other rebranded feeder has the same crappy wheels). I also made the mistake of ordering a few split wheels with the feeder and should have held off and gotten them from western. That said, when we do need a split wheel its usually more for hold down and less for driving the work so we just use the stock mustard yellow split wheels. I dont know why Shopgear woudnt just force Comatic to ship the feeders sans wheels and pull them in from Western in bulk.

I mentioned it in another post, and Im sure most people will cringe, but I will tell you one nice thing about the Western Roller wheels with the poly hub. If you get a really tough to feed/hold profile you can litterally just let the cutter machine away the tire and any portion of the hub (within reason of course keeping strength/integrity in mind) and it will allow for 100% wheel contact on profile. Basically the tire and the hub get machined to the exact cutter profile.

Its rare for us but we have done it a couple times and it has left it in my mind to ask Western to supply these wheels on future work where we may have the same issue. Basically would allow you to have your center two wheels somewhat nested around the cutter with the profile dead accurate machined into the wheel profile.


Super cool Mark. Would love it if you snapped a picture of that some time when you're doing it. I've been tempted to do it in the past, but never screwed up the courage to and often found another way, like with moulded pressures or something.

[Mark Bolton]

Super cool Mark. Would love it if you snapped a picture of that some time when you're doing it. I've been tempted to do it in the past, but never screwed up the courage to and often found another way, like with moulded pressures or something.

Ive always done the same, but by the time you get done making the reverse molded pressure plates you could just machine away the wheels and if there is anything left save them for another profile. If not, your out 2 40 dollar wheels. I cant make an intricate reverse profile (without the expense of cutters) for 80 bucks. With the CNC now we can run reverse profiles all day long but having the feed and hold down right at the cutter has been nice the couple times we've needed it.

[Van Huskey]

Let me go on record saying we need more shaper threads, they usually turn out to be some of the most insightful. I'll add a shout out to the SMC community as well, ask this question on pretty much any other forum except maybe 2 and you would get crickets.

[mark mcfarlane]

Thats interesting to hear. The entire industry has never been able to figure out why comatic ships its feeders with dog poop wheels to begin with (which means every other rebranded feeder has the same crappy wheels).... I dont know why Shopgear woudnt just force Comatic to ship the feeders sans wheels and pull them in from Western in bulk.

It is possible that ShopGear's solution is to get the Comatic feeders sans-wheels and add another vendors. I reread what I wrote, and although I gave the impression that Comatic was supplying the newer wheels, from my discussion with ShopGear that may or may not be the case. He wasn't clear on the newer wheel source, just that they hope they will be able to supply feeders in 2019 with poly wheels, without the end user having to throw out the stock wheels.

[brent stanley]

Can you fit the 40mm and 50mm pin knives that are common in North America (Amana, CMT, Dimar and others) in the Whitehill combi head?

Hi Mike, here's some pics. This is the small Combi head with the regular CMT, Dima cutters in it.

390921

Another set in there on a different angle.

390922

Same set in the big combi head.

390923

Different angle.

390924

So as you Can see, a lot of the profile gets lost in the head.

B

[Warren Lake]

no muss no fuss hand fed this stuff and serrated longer than most of my friends kids have been alive. Never gets sucked in or any of the evil things you are led to believe. Kick back, why. Glad I got brought up old school,. I can see the value in the new stuff for some things and its limitations as well and the new stuff has as many limitations as the old, just different.


390925

[Rod Sheridan]

Yes he did Mike.

I used the photo of yours in the shaper seminar............Rod.

[Mike Cutler]

Let me go on record saying we need more shaper threads, they usually turn out to be some of the most insightful. I'll add a shout out to the SMC community as well, ask this question on pretty much any other forum except maybe 2 and you would get crickets.

Van
I think that there is a wide enough cross section of folks here to support discussions like this. Guys like Martin make their living with one and bring that production efficiency insight. Others make cabinets as a side of their profession.Then there are a lot of folks in between. People bring different insights to the discussion. It's healthy.
The shaper is a much maligned machinefor some odd reason, which I've never understood. Maybe there is a misconception that it's only use is to make rails,stiles, and raised panels for doors??? Or that you have $10K-$15K invested in one to even start. I don't know?
A light duty shaper, 3HP min, is a very versatile machine in the home hobbyist shop. Insert cutter heads have brought the cost of operating one way down. Not router bit cheap, but not really that far off either. You'll never match a production shop with a light duty shaper, but the single person, in a home shop, can still produce quality material. It just takes a little more time, and possibly some additional steps.
It still boggles my mind at all the various cutters, and configurations, out there. Maybe that's an aspect that intimidates folks, just trying to figure out which cutters they should own??? Which is kind of what started off this thread.

[mark mcfarlane]

...
It still boggles my mind at all the various cutters, and configurations, out there. Maybe that's an aspect that intimidates folks, just trying to figure out which cutters they should own??? Which is kind of what started off this thread.

Shapers do have their own language for parts and use. Researching cutters was a bit time-consuming for me, but probably not any worse than saw blades: Grind type? Material? Kerf width? I suspect people like myself typically start out with a $20-40 saw blade and then learn more over years/decades of use. The price of entry for shaper tooling is an order of magnitude higher, and has its own language: corrugated, insert, MEC, MAN, ...

I don't remember Norm every using a real shaper, maybe that's the problem :).

[Martin Wasner]

Mark, Good info on the DC40. I've got one showing up next week since I stole the feeder off of my spare shaper that we use for odd ball stuff to put it on a tablesaw, now dedicated to cutting the groove for bottoms in drawer parts.

What really ticks me off is I ordered two new Steff feeders right after the DC feeders came out. I didn't know about them yet.

I disagree with not being money well spent when it comes to a dedicated setup. Frequently I've had to use a slower feed rate than either what I felt was correct, or the chip load calculations dictated. Being able to fine tune that is money well spent in the long run in my opinion.

[Jared Sankovich]

I'll add a shout out to the SMC community as well, ask this question on pretty much any other forum except maybe 2 and you would get crickets.

That would be one more that I'd even expect.

Back when I got my first shaper (never having used one before) I poured over old threads here and on woodweb. There is a lot of good information in the archives.

[Jared Sankovich]

The price of entry for shaper tooling is an order of magnitude higher

I think that's where a lot of heartburn occurs. If you are just starting out and trying to maximize the utility of the shaper with a small assortment of tooling you can get caught up in trying to figure out where the biggest return on your money would be. Should you buy cheap import braised carbide, a Euroblock or maybe a corrugated head.

Then you realise there are more things out there like lock edge and bevel edge heads that no one really talks about (much) in fourms like these.

Once you have a pile of heads, adding more seems to happen without much difficult.

[Mike Cutler]

Shapers do have their own language for parts and use. Researching cutters was a bit time-consuming for me, but probably not any worse than saw blades: Grind type? Material? Kerf width? I suspect people like myself typically start out with a $20-40 saw blade and then learn more over years/decades of use. The price of entry for shaper tooling is an order of magnitude higher, and has its own language: corrugated, insert, MEC, MAN, ...

I don't remember Norm every using a real shaper, maybe that's the problem :).

Mark
Definitely an array to chose from.
The cutter heads can be pricey, but there are some that should be "standard" for a home shop. Rebate cutter, T&G set, reversible glue edge. some basic edge profiles, groovers, and such. CMT makes a nice insert head system for small shapers. Cut's the cost way down.
For making cabinets, it's just a personal choice, and how much you want to spend. Infinity, Freeborn, Freud, Amana,etc, make all the basic styles.

[Mike Delyster]

Hi Mike, here's some pics. This is the small Combi head with the regular CMT, Dima cutters in it.

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Another set in there on a different angle.

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Same set in the big combi head.

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Different angle.

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So as you Can see, a lot of the profile gets lost in the head.

B

Thanks for the pictures Brent.

[brent stanley]

Mark
Definitely an array to chose from.
The cutter heads can be pricey, but there are some that should be "standard" for a home shop. Rebate cutter, T&G set, reversible glue edge. some basic edge profiles, groovers, and such. CMT makes a nice insert head system for small shapers. Cut's the cost way down.
For making cabinets, it's just a personal choice, and how much you want to spend. Infinity, Freeborn, Freud, Amana,etc, make all the basic styles.

The great thing about the taller knives (55mm) is you can get the cope and stick profiles on the one knife (for normal door thicknesses) which saves money. Easy to get two different beads on one knife too. I have a set of knives for my 40mm head that has four different roundover profiles on one knife. I expect with the taller knives and the thicker steel which gives you more projection, you might be able to get a set of knives made that give you 6 or 8 different radii on one knife. Suddenly the cost compared to router bits swings the other direction, with the bonus being better cut quality on a machine that's nicer to use. Same can be done for cove cutters.

Before I got my first shaper, I did the router table thing like everyone else. Now I have a combi head, an adjustable groover and a panel raiser plus a bunch of knives and almost never use my router table anymore. I easily have more money sitting idle in router bits than I have in shaper tooling but now I get much better finishes on machines with better dust collection that are nicer to use.

In fairness, a commercial shop would benefit from some dedicated heads that I just have knives for (glue joint, common cabinet door profiles, common round overs, etc etc) and they would certainly spend a lot more money, but ought to have the revenue to support it.

[Mark Bolton]

Mark, Good info on the DC40. I've got one showing up next week since I stole the feeder off of my spare shaper that we use for odd ball stuff to put it on a tablesaw, now dedicated to cutting the groove for bottoms in drawer parts.

What really ticks me off is I ordered two new Steff feeders right after the DC feeders came out. I didn't know about them yet.

I disagree with not being money well spent when it comes to a dedicated setup. Frequently I've had to use a slower feed rate than either what I felt was correct, or the chip load calculations dictated. Being able to fine tune that is money well spent in the long run in my opinion.

I guess the speed issue is true in that regard maybe more do pertaining to the high dollar smart stand. But yeah we have the same problem with our 4 speed feeders. Seems like your always just a shade too fast or a shade too slow with any gear arrangement or speed.

[Mel Fulks]

While the finger kit would be nice, I think the breakthrough fence is even better in some situations as it offers more support (not much difference to be fair) and gives you zero clearance which can help.

That was an obvious truth for a long time. We made simple dedicated fences for things like thick nosed sill returns and lots
of other stuff . And anyone whose laziness made them ruin one was eliminated. I think one of the most useful fences is
one about 10 inches tall and long enough to be clamped diagonaly. Allows you to see "the roof is the limit" as the feeder
bar will not be an obstacle. You can gang cut decorative fence pickets, large lock edge mitres.

[brent stanley]

That was an obvious truth for a long time. We made simple dedicated fences for things like thick nosed sill returns and lots
of other stuff . And anyone whose laziness made them ruin one was eliminated. I think one of the most useful fences is
one about 10 inches tall and long enough to be clamped diagonaly. Allows you to see "the roof is the limit" as the feeder
bar will not be an obstacle. You can gang cut decorative fence pickets, large lock edge mitres.


Wish there was a "like" button on SMC, because this is great. We often get stuck with thinking we NEED to use the factory fence when a homemade one like this enables positioning anywhere. Super handy for doing lock edge work like you say. You just have to secure it well enough to the table that it won't move if you're doing something that wants a fair amount of pressure from your feeder.

B

[Van Huskey]

That would be one more that I'd even expect.

Back when I got my first shaper (never having used one before) I poured over old threads here and on woodweb. There is a lot of good information in the archives.

At first I was going to say zero but then remembered woodweb that I hate the format of so never visit and there is also a lot of bigger machine knowledge on owwm. But the in the more mainstream forums the thread would die a slow painful death working its way off the first page.

[Mel Fulks]

Yeah,you need a feeder, but for most manual feeding a spring hold down can and should be used. I worked a few years
before I ever saw an electric feeder. And in that time I never saw anything done without a spring hold down. Some were
quite basic but others were deluxe with beefy Acme thread adjustment. I suggest anyone saving for an electric feeder ,at least rig up some type of spring hold down.

[Jared Sankovich]

I'd be curious if there was anyone here with a shaper that does not have a feeder as well. (that uses a shaper even semi regularly)

[Joe Calhoon]

The first shaper I owned was the baby Delta in 1976. I made cabinet doors for a few years with that. No feeder and no DC. Did not know feeders existed till I had my second shaper the Delta HD. I remember the spring hold downs and shop made feather boards. Don’t miss that at all. Feeder makes a world of difference. I like to make some test cuts hand feeding just to test cutter sharpness.

the Aigner overhead guard works well for the times you need to hand feed like for small raised panels. They are also nice to close the cutter in when using a sliding table or sled.
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[Joe Calhoon]

Here is a shop made fence that works quicker than the Felder add on bars. It will work on wood, and metal fence plates and also with the Aigner fence. We use it for smaller diameter cutters when the Aigner fingers are too thick.

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[Joe Calhoon]

Here is a zero clearance fence made the same way to attach to the fence jaws for quick setup. We have several of these made of wood but this is the most used to close in the opening of a 8” cutter used for wing cuts on windows. This one is also made to remove 1mm from the edge.
We used to motor the fence back to cut these but a little dangerous and hard on the cutters so now I get the opening close with a jig saw and back in the last part. It does not need to be perfect zero.

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[Rod Sheridan]

Let me go on record saying we need more shaper threads, they usually turn out to be some of the most insightful. I'll add a shout out to the SMC community as well, ask this question on pretty much any other forum except maybe 2 and you would get crickets.

Very true, we're lucky here with the knowledge, including your frequent band saw posts.

At the Felder seminars I always mention that for versatility and capabilities the band saw and shaper are my most important machine, as well as a J/P.

Everyone is surprised at the band saw seminars that the band saw can both break down large rough material, and make perfect fitting bridle joints as well. The shaper seminars are eye openers as well, as the participants get to use one with a stock feeder and see how fast, accurate and versatile the shaper is.

By the way, as a Moto Guzzi lover, I presume you're talking about Ducati with the 5,328 mile listing? Love Ducatis, own BMW's, Norton and a James, always lusted after a 1978 Duc 900SS......................Rod.

[Mel Fulks]

The modern stuff is fine for all modern stuff, but I haven't seen anything here that could be used for stair easings and such. But a spring hold down is just right. Yes ,there isn't a lot of that work around. But there is enough for anyone who
can and will do it.

[Mark Bolton]

Every time I hear one of these "I grew up running hand fed blah blah blah" reminds me of things like putting up hay when youve got several generations of people in the hay field and one talks about putting up hay with a scythe and sled, dragging it in with a sled, stacking it around a pole, another always used a sickle bar mower maybe drawn by a team or behind a tractor, the youngsters are running a haybine or a disc mower or discbine and then you really get in the weeds when the crap breaks out about square bales or round bales.

The simple fact of the matter is if you grew up hand feeding with feather/pressure boards you need your head examined if you in any way shape or for think that the "youngsters" or those "coming up" are in any way challenged by their collosally smart advantage over you with their new fangled feeders.

We still do, or perhaps I should say "I" still do, quite a bit of hand feeding. The reason I dont have employees hand feed is because I cant afford the comp. And if my insurance agent or the OSHA inspector walked in, whether they knew a thing about nothing, they would have a fit. In fact if I were to ever have had my best employee standing there with a sled feeding material by hand I would be a little un-nerved and tentative.

Feeders are simply a no brainer. They are smarter, they are safer, they are faster, they reduce operator fatigue by a factor of 100, cut quality is 1000% better, tooling life (cost, resharpening cost) is through the roof, production is way up.

Anyone talking about the good graces of coming up hand feeding in this day and age needs their head examined. You may well have a great grasp of the physics of whats going on with the tool but the simple fact of the matter is the vast majority of us trying to hire people on a daily basis will likely never in our careers have the luxury of an individual who is truely interested in absorbing the physics and minuscia of subtleties of setting up a hand fed operation. You need, and the hobbyist running a shaper needs, to be able to setup a smart operation where you put a part against the fence, engage the feed wheels, and it works.

Arguing in favor of the days of old is a fools errand. I have guys in my shop on occasion that tell endless stories of panel raising by hand and having parts fly across the shop, a piece of gnarly grain sending a corner of a panel flying for 75 feet. I personally couldnt afford the liability to reproduce that shop today.

I wouldnt trade a feeder fed operation for a hand fed operation with featherboards and pressure hold downs for a million bucks.

[brent stanley]

The modern stuff is fine for all modern stuff, but I haven't seen anything here that could be used for stair easings and such. But a spring hold down is just right. Yes ,there isn't a lot of that work around. But there is enough for anyone who
can and will do it.

Hi Mel, do you feel that the tooling doesn't permit this type of work, or that feeders can't be adapted to do this?

b

[Mel Fulks]

Brent ,I was mainly referring to safe procedures. I've used feeders to run circular and elliptical casings on edge. Two feeder wheels for circles with guide "shoes" tacked to the fence for tracking. One wheel directly over cutting head for elliptical stuff, with one hand holding the casing end to help keep the bottom work edge directly under center of cutter. For something like stair rail easings ,where the radius is too small to avoid the work being blocked by the wheel hubs not in use I guess one could make an 'axal extender' to give the work piece an unblocked path. But even the slowest
speed on some of the feeders might be too fast for an easing that already has some work in it like glue up ,band sawing ,sanding the bottom , running a chanel for a baluster; (sometimes the customer doesn't want the channel) and setting
up the shaper to run the usually serpentine top. The spring hold down ,fitted with a wooden shoe works well for all the shaping.

[Mel Fulks]

Just remembered that I didn't answer the tooling question. We always used the old style 3 " diameter "collars" since they
avoid the profile distortion due to small work radius. But some profiles probably work okay with larger diameter heads.

[brent stanley]

Just remembered that I didn't answer the tooling question. We always used the old style 3 " diameter "collars" since they
avoid the profile distortion due to small work radius. But some profiles probably work okay with larger diameter heads.

Interesting!

I personally can see how feeders can limit quality in some instances. You can do all the chip loading calculations you want, and go about an operation according to all the "rules" you want, but wood's a product of Mother Nature, and as we all know, Mother Nature has a habit of humbling us. Sometimes wood just won't behave like the books say it should. I think the ability to change feed speed instantly (or pull the stock out of the cutters to regroup) as you hear and feel the cutters starting to tear out or otherwise would be hard to emulate with a feeder. I changed to a 3ph feeder with one of Jack's vector drive VFDs so I can just crank the dial back and slow down the feed if I hear tear-out or something. You're relying on your ears because your hands aren't on the stock, but I think it will help.

[Mike Cutler]

Every time I hear one of these "I grew up running hand fed blah blah blah" reminds me of things like putting up hay when youve got several generations of people in the hay field and one talks about putting up hay with a scythe and sled, dragging it in with a sled, stacking it around a pole, another always used a sickle bar mower maybe drawn by a team or behind a tractor, the youngsters are running a haybine or a disc mower or discbine and then you really get in the weeds when the crap breaks out about square bales or round bales.

That people grew up in a different era doesn't really mean anything. It just means that we learned a different way, that we are not uncomfortable with. Doesn't make it right, or wrong. Safe, or unsafe. It's just what it is, or was.
Square bales suck. That's 700lbs that is just a pain to move about, once it comes off the tractor. ;)

The simple fact of the matter is if you grew up hand feeding with feather/pressure boards you need your head examined if you in any way shape or for think that the "youngsters" or those "coming up" are in any way challenged by their collosally smart advantage over you with their new fangled feeders.

I don't think we need our heads examined, at least not for that reason. Machines changed for a few reasons, and not least among them is that people operating them were getting hurt, and or dying. That's a fact that cannot be disputed. Making a machine, or process, safer should always be a priority.

We still do, or perhaps I should say "I" still do, quite a bit of hand feeding. The reason I dont have employees hand feed is because I cant afford the comp. And if my insurance agent or the OSHA inspector walked in, whether they knew a thing about nothing, they would have a fit. In fact if I were to ever have had my best employee standing there with a sled feeding material by hand I would be a little un-nerved and tentative.

Your needs to hand feed are the same as anyone else. Sometimes the material doesn't accommodate being power fed.

Feeders are simply a no brainer. They are smarter, they are safer, they are faster, they reduce operator fatigue by a factor of 100, cut quality is 1000% better, tooling life (cost, resharpening cost) is through the roof, production is way up.
No dispute there. An engineered safety solution, is always better than a safety practice.

Anyone talking about the good graces of coming up hand feeding in this day and age needs their head examined. You may well have a great grasp of the physics of whats going on with the tool but the simple fact of the matter is the vast majority of us trying to hire people on a daily basis will likely never in our careers have the luxury of an individual who is truely interested in absorbing the physics and minuscia of subtleties of setting up a hand fed operation. You need, and the hobbyist running a shaper needs, to be able to setup a smart operation where you put a part against the fence, engage the feed wheels, and it works.
Sometimes the parts don't always fit up against a fence. Sleds, jigs, templates, etc, must be used.A shaper can be safely operated in absence of a power feeder, but the method will be much slower, and in the end more costly. In a production shop, such as yours, this is just not possible, and as you pointed out, the liability is too great.

Arguing in favor of the days of old is a fools errand. I have guys in my shop on occasion that tell endless stories of panel raising by hand and having parts fly across the shop, a piece of gnarly grain sending a corner of a panel flying for 75 feet. I personally couldn't afford the liability to reproduce that shop today.

I wouldnt trade a feeder fed operation for a hand fed operation with featherboards and pressure hold downs for a million bucks.
As far as a production shop? Definitely a powered fed operation wins hands down.

Mark
The thrust of the discussion is for a person working alone.A production operation, such as yours, has many different needs it must satisfy and balance to be successful. A guy working alone also needs a different process to be successful, whether hobbyist, or solo operation. My only argument would be that a shaper can be manually operated just as safely, or unsafely, as any other machine in the work shop. It doesn't have to be exclusively limited to power fed operation only.
People will either choose to work safely or not.

[Mark Bolton]

It doesn't have to be exclusively limited to power fed operation only

Never an argument there. No one is going to disagree with Mel's point that stair easings and so on are not going to work out too well with a feeder. The point of my response is that in any of these conversations there is always that throw back to hand feeding rebates, moldings, cope and stick, raised panels (even arched), radius work, and its of course true. They can all be hand fed, some safer than others, and if you have no budget for a feeder and plenty of time thats great. But production shop or not, safety through the roof, operator fatigue (a huge huge one in any book) is reduced to low single digits, cut quality and tooling life are through the roof, and throughput is through the roof.

I just had a friend in the shop over the weekend running some parts for some tables he wanted to make. Feeder on the table saw, feeders on the shapers, and the guy is running around like a kid in a candy store at the throughput, the extreme lack of fear and concern feeding material across a sharp-spinny-thing regardless of guarding and hold-downs, the fact that you are basically 2 grits aways from a finish ready surface no burning from starts and stop/repositioning your hands, reaching for the push stick, and the fact that at the end of the day your not physically whipped.

Its no news that any operation can be hand fed. But to harken back to learning on the old stuff as just as good just doesnt make any sense in the days of outrageously priced sawstops and festool equipment.

Again, I have sat in hay fields listening to the old timers ride down the new guys with their mowers that will cut hay at 30MPH that they are this and they are that. Then the old timer hauls off and buys a disc mower and is mowing faster and safer than he ever has in his 60-80 years and bragging about the hours of free time he now has to weed his garden or enjoy his family. Its actually a joy to watch.

Thankfully I dont have the experience of doing all this stuff old school. The knowledge is great to absorb and read about, but Im thankful to have missed out on the experience first hand. ;-)

[mark mcfarlane]

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Someone asked me to post some pictures of the articulating stock feeder arm for my Minimax CU300, so here are a few along with a pic of the Whitehill insert head that arrived yesterday. The articulating arm is from Minimax. The Whitehill combo head has the rebate knives installed but has blanks where the profile / limiter blades normally go.

A quick test of a rebate in 3/4 birch plywood had excellent results, actually better than expected, and much, much better than using the router table.

Thanks again everyone for the help in deciding what to purchase. Now I need to drive 1.5 hours each way to pick up some soft maple and MDF and build some new painted shaker cabinet doors for the laundry room.

[David Kumm]

Arm is very similar to the old Knapp style. Dave

[Mark Bolton]

Wow, Image number four is a full on freaky amount of compound leverage and weight. What a cool photograph.

[Martin Wasner]

Wow, Image number four is a full on freaky amount of compound leverage and weight. What a cool photograph.

There's a whole bunch of stuff going on there.

[Van Huskey]

There's a whole bunch of stuff going on there.

The main thing I see is the horrible faux pas of blotting out a bandsaw in a shop picture. :D

[mark mcfarlane]

The main thing I see is the horrible faux pas of blotting out a bandsaw in a shop picture. :D

Sorry Van, I didn't intend to disrespect the bandsaw.

[Van Huskey]

Sorry Van, I didn't intend to disrespect the bandsaw.


You have to be careful, especially the Italian ones can be a jealous mistress. :eek: