Should I pin or drawbore tenons in an exterior door?

[Roger Marty]

I'm building an exterior door out of solid white oak. The door is 32" wide with tenons 2" long.


I plan on gluing with Titebond III.


Door will face West, but has a storm door in front of it. Midwest weather (cold, hot, snow, rain).


Should I bother pinning the tenons with dowels? I'm a bit intimidated by drawboring and not sure I want to bother with that.

[Dave Richards]

I would probably pin them at least but I would run the dowels from the inside and not all the way through. I'd consider making the dowels short enough that plugs could be inserted over them so there'd be no end grain on the face of the door.

[lowell holmes]

I pinned the pinned the tenons on a fir door I built many years ago. It is a raised panel door. The panels have two layers, inside and outside.
I did that so they would not split, and they haven't. I inserted clear plastic sheet between the panels to eliminate moisture penetration.
The door is 10 or 12 years old.

[Wayne Lomman]

Pins will be OK but you will regret using titebond lll. Use resorcinol or epoxy. TB lll is not good for exterior work despite the marketing. Cheers

[Tom M King]

If the joints will fit nicely to start with, and you're going to use glue, I see no need at all to drawbore. The pegs will have long since taken a permanent set to their curve by the time the glue fails. I take apart 200 year old woodwork all the time to make repairs. With no glue, the real beauty of pegged tenons is ease of disassembly in the future.

[Brian Holcombe]

Drawboring makes for a very strong jont that can be disassembled if need be. If you decide to use it, make the pins by riving them.

[Roger Marty]

Pins will be OK but you will regret using titebond lll. Use resorcinol or epoxy. TB lll is not good for exterior work despite the marketing. Cheers

Really? How come? This door should not have exposure to rain/snow because of a glass storm door in front of it.

My local wood supplier hates Titebond wood glues, but even he said "Titebond III will work fine with 2" tenons". I read elsewhere that a U.S. Forest Products study showed that Epoxy and Oak doesn't do well over time.

So right now I'm leaning TBIII, and then once it has dried, drill 1/4" holes into the tenons and drive some oak dowels in there.

[Robert Engel]

Although I tend to agree somewhat with Wayne about the actual "waterproof" aspect of TBIII, you will probably be fine with it in your application. I may be wrong, but I consider epoxy, polyurethane and construction adhesive actuall waterproof glues.

Pinning adds an immense amount of strength to M/T joints so you can't go wrong ever doing it IMO.

Personal preference, but one way to address the look of the pins is to cover with a square plug (use a contrasting wood if desired for example, walnut plugs in an oak door look quite nice - matter of taste). Make the square hole with a punch like this (http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=65380) or mortising bit.

Draw boring is a timber frame technique adapted to ww'ing joints with no glue, such as breadboard ends. No real advantage here.

[David Kumm]

I'm an epoxy guy. I add some fine sanding dust to thicken and give the stuff a little tooth, make the mortise a tad long and put a groove in the tenon so the glue has someplace to go. there is hydraulic pressure at work if everything fits too tight. A rough surface on either the mortise or tenon is a good thing if not overdone and sloppy. Dave

[Brian Holcombe]

Although I tend to agree somewhat with Wayne about the actual "waterproof" aspect of TBIII, you will probably be fine with it in your application. I may be wrong, but I consider epoxy, polyurethane and construction adhesive actuall waterproof glues.

Pinning adds an immense amount of strength to M/T joints so you can't go wrong ever doing it IMO.

Personal preference, but one way to address the look of the pins is to cover with a square plug (use a contrasting wood if desired for example, walnut plugs in an oak door look quite nice - matter of taste). Make the square hole with a punch like this (http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=65380) or mortising bit.

Draw boring is a timber frame technique adapted to ww'ing joints with no glue, such as breadboard ends. No real advantage here.

You can draw bore with a square peg also.

[Derek Cohen]

You could drawbore and forgo the glue. This will be a strong joint that will resist weather and temperature changes.

As Brian mentioned, rived pegs will remain strong for longer than the house remains there.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tom M King]

Since the tenons are just 2" long, I'd glue it and peg it. Too easy to ruin short tenons with drawboring. If they were through tenons, or close, I'd consider not gluing, but am afraid longevity won't be so good for an entry door with unglued 2" tenons.

[Brian Holcombe]

Ah, I glossed over that. I agree, those are short and do not offer enough relish.

[Roger Marty]

Ah, I glossed over that. I agree, those are short and do not offer enough relish.

Wow, you guys must make doors with 6" wide stiles and 4" tenons or something?!

[Tom M King]

Since my work matches old work, it's almost always through tenons at whatever width the stiles are. This is from a picture I already had stored here (been shown seveal times before). The bottom tenons in these shutters are double (other peg doesn't show because of shadow). No glue was used, and since I knew that the wood was drier when I built them, than they ever would be again, I didn't bother with drawboring. Some years later, not a single one has sagged, and they are all still easy to operate. They're a little over 20 x 90 inches.

http://historic-house-restoration.com/images/CIMG2069.JPG

[Mike Cutler]

Wow, you guys must make doors with 6" wide stiles and 4" tenons or something?!

Roger
I've rebuilt a few "vintage" doors and it's actually surprising how much mechanical engagement between rails and stiles there is.
The current door I'm just finishing is about the same size as the one you pictured. The rails and stiles were connected with 7" long, 1/2" diameter dowels.
The stiles are only 4" wide, but those dowels went in a full 3".
I would pin that tenon also and cover the pins with some type of decorative motif.
I've built a few interior doors and based my mechanical engagement off the doors I've rebuilt. If those doors can last a 100 years, and can still be rebuilt, the method is proven.

The term "vintage" should really be, "an old broken, falling apart, door. ;)

[Brian Holcombe]

Wow, you guys must make doors with 6" wide stiles and 4" tenons or something?!

I typically make them as long as the stile will allow, so if I wanted blind joinery and the stile is 6" wide, most likely the tenons would be 5.5"~.

[Wayne Lomman]

I guess you have a different definition of a storm door to to me. If you are protecting your timber door with a glass door, glue it with whatever you want. It is basically an interior door. My comments about the limitations of TB lll still stand. Cheers

[Roger Marty]

I guess you have a different definition of a storm door to to me. If you are protecting your timber door with a glass door, glue it with whatever you want. It is basically an interior door. My comments about the limitations of TB lll still stand. Cheers

Any particular brand of Epoxy you recommend?

[John TenEyck]

If your door is going to get direct sun on it you are going to regret putting a storm door over it. The sun will bake that door; at a minimum the finish will fail early; in the worst case the panels and joints will crack. i know you think you are protecting it with the storm door but in reality it will increase the liklihood of problems and failure.

I also concur with others to use plastic resin glue or epoxy, especially if you insist on putting a storm door over it. The temp. in there is going to get hot enough for TB III to creep. I also would make those tenons at least 2-1/2" long, preferably even more if you aren't using cope and stick or stub tenons where the rails and stiles meet. Pinning isn't needed IMHO if you believe glue works and I do.

If you still think the storm door is a good idea, paint it white. Clear finishes and dark colors won't last.

John

[Tom M King]

I wouldn't use epoxy on a Southern facing door, especially behind a glass storm door. Epoxy breaks down fast with enough heat, or slowly with low heat. I've quit using it for repairs on the South, or Southwest sides of houses. On an old house I worked on in the early '90's, epoxy (West Systems) repairs on the North, and East sides of a house are still fine, but ones on the South side have failed. One window sill on the North side has a major repair with epoxy, and it's still fine. Some parts merely glued together with epoxy on the South side have failed at the glue joint.

I wish I had comparables with other glues, but can't think of any. That house has no shade around it at all.

[Roger Marty]

If your door is going to get direct sun on it you are going to regret putting a storm door over it. The sun will bake that door; at a minimum the finish will fail early; in the worst case the panels and joints will crack. i know you think you are protecting it with the storm door but in reality it will increase the liklihood of problems and failure.

I also concur with others to use plastic resin glue or epoxy, especially if you insist on putting a storm door over it. The temp. in there is going to get hot enough for TB III to creep. I also would make those tenons at least 2-1/2" long, preferably even more if you aren't using cope and stick or stub tenons where the rails and stiles meet. Pinning isn't needed IMHO if you believe glue works and I do.

If you still think the storm door is a good idea, paint it white. Clear finishes and dark colors won't last.

John

I believe a storm door was added in circa 2011. We bought the house in 2013. I suspect you are right because the existing door basically has a laminate that completely failed over the past few years.

The door is in a master bedroom. I could remove the storm door, though it is kind of nice to open it up and get full sunlight into the bedroom. I am building the new door with a 3/4" window though to provide more light.

I already glued up the one panel (at the bottom...measures 16" x 23") with Titebond III, but I'll look at using Epoxy for gluing up the rails and stiles.

Since the door faces basically nothing, I'll look at painting the exterior white. I want the interior to be natural wood though. The looks of this door (from the inside) is more important than the functionality. It is an odd size, so I couldn't even buy a pre-made door that fit.

I suspect the hardest part of the installation (into the existing frame) will be lining up the existing hinges perfectly.

[Roger Marty]

I believe a storm door was added in circa 2011. We bought the house in 2013. I suspect you are right because the existing door basically has a laminate that completely failed over the past few years.

The door is in a master bedroom. I could remove the storm door, though it is kind of nice to open it up and get full sunlight into the bedroom. I am building the new door with a 3/4" window though to provide more light.

I already glued up the one panel (at the bottom...measures 16" x 23") with Titebond III, but I'll look at using Epoxy for gluing up the rails and stiles.

Since the door faces basically nothing, I'll look at painting the exterior white. I want the interior to be natural wood though. The looks of this door (from the inside) is more important than the functionality. It is an odd size, so I couldn't even buy a pre-made door that fit.

I suspect the hardest part of the installation (into the existing frame) will be lining up the existing hinges perfectly.

Also the existing storm door does have a roll-up screen, so if heat is an issue, I could just keep it cracked open to ventilate during the summer months. Then the storm door still provides a large degree of rain protection, lets heat escape in the summer, and provides additional insulation in the winter?

[Tom M King]

Trim the door to fit the opening, like you like it, before you cut the first mortise. With it wedged in place, mark the location for the top hinge. Cut that mortise, mount the hinge, put the pin in it, and wedge the door into position as open as you can get it, showing the same gap along the jamb as is now at the top hinge. Then mark the locations of the other mortises using the hinges with the pins in them, swung against the door. Use a marking knife, or at least a sharp pencil. It should work perfectly after that. If you try to measure, and transfer the measurements, it adds another layer to bring in other errors.

[Tom M King]

With that roof in the picture, I see that it's not only a South facing door, but in a Southwest corner, which is the hottest possible location. I definately wouldn't use epoxy.

[John TenEyck]

Also the existing storm door does have a roll-up screen, so if heat is an issue, I could just keep it cracked open to ventilate during the summer months. Then the storm door still provides a large degree of rain protection, lets heat escape in the summer, and provides additional insulation in the winter?

Sun will hit the door most not in the Summer but in the Spring and Fall when it's lower in the sky. In any case, direct sun exposure on a wood door is never good; behind a storm door it's really bad. You have seen what the heat did to the existing door; it will do the same to your new door if you leave the storm door on with no ventilation. As a minimum you should permanently ventilate the door. You can add soffit/siding type ventilators at the bottom and top of the storm door, for example that will let air flow into/out of the space between the doors to help reduce the temp. in there.


Full thickness panels aren't good either, especially with white oak. It would be much better to make two separate panels, back to back, so that they can move independently with the seasons. I don't mean to keep piling on, but I've been down this road and seen what happens. White oak is very rot resistant but it has high seasonal expansion/contraction and loves to crack. Douglas fir, mahogany, even white pine would be a much better choice and if you are going to paint it it would be an easy choice for me.

The only good news is your finishing plan will work fine; white on the outside, whatever you want on the inside. Good luck.

John

[Doug Dawson]

I believe a storm door was added in circa 2011. We bought the house in 2013. I suspect you are right because the existing door basically has a laminate that completely failed over the past few years.

The door is in a master bedroom. I could remove the storm door, though it is kind of nice to open it up and get full sunlight into the bedroom. I am building the new door with a 3/4" window though to provide more light.

I already glued up the one panel (at the bottom...measures 16" x 23") with Titebond III, but I'll look at using Epoxy for gluing up the rails and stiles.

Since the door faces basically nothing, I'll look at painting the exterior white. I want the interior to be natural wood though. The looks of this door (from the inside) is more important than the functionality. It is an odd size, so I couldn't even buy a pre-made door that fit.

I suspect the hardest part of the installation (into the existing frame) will be lining up the existing hinges perfectly.

[see image]

Is that door really opening onto the _roof_?

... Why? What kind of threats are you under? If you don't mind my asking. (All hail Lennon, Marx.)

[Roger Marty]

[see image]

Is that door really opening onto the _roof_?

... Why? What kind of threats are you under? If you don't mind my asking. (All hail Lennon, Marx.)

Yes :-) I think it used to be a porch or something. Now it is just a rubber membrane roof! We never go out there. But the existing door doesn't let in much light and is literally falling apart on the outside.

[Roger Marty]

Sun will hit the door most not in the Summer but in the Spring and Fall when it's lower in the sky. In any case, direct sun exposure on a wood door is never good; behind a storm door it's really bad. You have seen what the heat did to the existing door; it will do the same to your new door if you leave the storm door on with no ventilation. As a minimum you should permanently ventilate the door. You can add soffit/siding type ventilators at the bottom and top of the storm door, for example that will let air flow into/out of the space between the doors to help reduce the temp. in there.


Full thickness panels aren't good either, especially with white oak. It would be much better to make two separate panels, back to back, so that they can move independently with the seasons. I don't mean to keep piling on, but I've been down this road and seen what happens. White oak is very rot resistant but it has high seasonal expansion/contraction and loves to crack. Douglas fir, mahogany, even white pine would be a much better choice and if you are going to paint it it would be an easy choice for me.

The only good news is your finishing plan will work fine; white on the outside, whatever you want on the inside. Good luck.

John

Damn. I considered Douglas Fir and (African) Mahagony, but went with White Oak since I saw it very frequently recommended for solid wood exterior doors when doing numerous Google searches.

I can make a new panel since it is not glued up yet. Perhaps two panels of 3/4" thick white oak? Then just sandwich them back-to-back to create a 1.5" thick panel?

[Roger Marty]

With that roof in the picture, I see that it's not only a South facing door, but in a Southwest corner, which is the hottest possible location. I definately wouldn't use epoxy.

What would you use for glue?

[Roger Marty]

Most of this door will be glass which should help...

[mreza Salav]

not an expert but for my door I used longer tenons. also i would not use TB III. it has failed more than once one me and there is no consensus on it.

[Tom M King]

What would you use for glue?

Sorry, I know it's a little late, but I would build one that didn't use glue.

edited to add: I don't think anything I've ever stuck together with resorcinol has failed, but I haven't seen any of that for ages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resorcinol_glue

[Roger Marty]

Sorry, I know it's a little late, but I would build one that didn't use glue.

edited to add: I don't think anything I've ever stuck together with resorcinol has failed, but I haven't seen any of that for ages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resorcinol_glue

FWIW, the door faces West / NorthWest.

Sounds like I should drawbore it with glue.

Looks like I can find Rescorcinol: http://aircraftproducts.wicksaircraft.com/item/all-categories/cascophen-kit/cp1131-pt

[Tom M King]

Sorry, I don't know where I got it from that it faced South. Maybe I was thinking about a conversation going on in another thread. I may be participating in too many. No drawboring with short tenons-more of a risk than a reward. No reward anyway if you're going to use glue.