Looking for a Martin sliding tablesaw

[Charles Boone]

I am thinking of buying a sliding table saw and have looked at several brands. I have also read posts of people suggesting the Martin Brand. As a hobbyist, I can not afford a new Martin, but would like to find a resource for used. Most of the used are listed in the EU. I am trying to find a newer saw in 7-10k price range. I appreciate any information or suggestions.

Thanks,

Ash

[Gregory Stahl]

Sorry, you will not find a late model Martin Slider for that price. I am an Altendorf fan and owner, and the best deal I saw on a late model was $25k at an auction for a 10-year old saw. You will need to look at the models previous to the LCD controllers for your price range, and am estimating you are in the 20-year old range. 20-year old Altendorf saws are going for $8-10k with no LCD controllers on them--completely manual or possibly a motor control with digital readout if you are lucky. If you want a newer saw, look at SCMI. The Nova 400 is just above your price range and is very good for the money. The sliding table is fantastic.

People/businesses that spend $35k and up on new saws are serious buyers and will not likely sell their machines unless circumstances force them too; thus, you will have difficulty finding one for sale.

-Greg Stahl

[David Kumm]

Watch the Machinery Exchange on woodweb.com. Joe Calhoon is the Martin guy here and knows way more about them than I do. They are rare on the used market ( I'm assuming you are looking for pre electronics vintage ). Altendorf is the other saw of equal build and they are more common used. The post 1995 use steel rather than phenolic ways so they are preferred. I'd also expand my search to include other commercial machines. Condition and completeness are important. I have several old sliders and many old machines and can tell you opportunity should trump model. The old SCM SI16 or Hydro 3200 were a step down from the Martin but still very heavy by hobby standards as they were full industrial and well built. The SI16 is so common you can find a great one for 4-7K and a parts machine for 1-2K. I bought two and made one complete and have a bunch of spare parts. I used the extra money to buy a set of Mac's clamps. Go to airtightclamps.com and look them over. They are well worth the price. Dave

[John Sincerbeaux]

Like most things, there are different machines in the Martin line-up with different price points. Their entry level machines are actually re-badged Griggio machines. I have the T60C which is the lower end of their line-up and significantly less in every way to their flagship tablesaw, the T75 PreX.

[Joe Jensen]

If you have not had a chance to see several manufacturers, I strongly recommend you attend the IWF show in Atlanta 8/22-25. Martin, SCMI, Felder, etc will all be there. I would love a Martin for my hobby some day. The Felder 700 series is as much saw as I realistically need. IMHO the real advantage to be really heavy duty old school machines is that they are bulletproof in a commercial shop where the help slams sheets up on them all day long. I received my Felder Jan 2010 and it's stayed pretty perfectly aligned since getting it. When you see a Martin T75 you will say wow! My friend has a T60C and its way better than my Felder but at a price, I think he paid like $25K New

[jack forsberg]

Mark Hennaberry From solid wood Machinery is rebuilding a T 17 Martin and I’m pretty sure he selling it. I believe he’s even posted a rebuild thread here.

[Darcy Warner]

They are out there. Personally I am a fan of the cast iron 60s and 70s sliders.

[Randy Henry]

Where are you located? I know someone who has a 2000 Martin T-72A that may be for sale.

[Mike Wilkins]

Check ExFactory and/or Woodweb; I have seen Martin saws on these sites before, but you will have to be patient and wait for one to come up for sale.

[Patrick Walsh]

My boss just purchased a early 2000’s t-73 for $9K

It’s imop seen heavy use although as far as I can tell still not under power a very nice saw. If veything is in good working order and we can get the saw aligned properly even in its ratty condition I would take it over a brand new Scmi or Felder any day.

For a point of reference when I recently took delivery of my T-54 jointer the rep or dealer told me the T-60 C starts at like $33k and equipped the the way I want it. Digital rip, crosscut fence and miter gauge I’d be looking at more like $43K.

He was also quite upfront with me that he recently sold a brand new T-60C to a client whom was previously using the early 2000’s T-73 my boss just purchased and the client felt the build quality was not substantial enough over say Scmi or Felder or whatever to warrant the extra cost.

I don’t even begin to agree with his client but each to his own.

Good luck if you have the money and willingness I don’t think you will regret buying a Martin. Just don’t buy that entry level Griggrio. If that’s what you want just buy the Griggrio although recently I read right here that Griggrio May be short lived?

[John Sincerbeaux]

“I don’t even begin to agree with his client but each to his own.”

Agree with you Patrick.

On another note, I bought my T60C one year ago, all digital/motorized, for a lot less than the numbers your rep quoted you.

[Patrick Walsh]

John,

Yes I agree you can t even begin to compare the T-60 to any Scmi nevermind a Nova 400or Felder anything.

I try to keep perspective on the matter a bit censored as many just can’t see why spending even a little more a tool capable of the same job as the next nevermind whatnin some cases can be double. I get lots of flack or pushback from all my peers in the trade with regard to my options on Martin vrs the rest.

Sadly I think I have to purchase through my local dealer or rep. I sure would be very disappointed to find out I’m being had. I would also be shocked as my local dealer or rep to date has been very helpful and even gone out of his way to help me acquire used Martin machinery. Well in this last case not acquire it but warn me that the seller was completely nuts and to be careful and make sure I don’t get ripped off.

Pm me if you wouldn’t mind how your machine is specked and what you paid. If it is was substaiallymlessmi should know as I will buy one in the near future. Probably this time next year?

[David Kumm]

Keep in mind that any 20 year old saw will be substantially heavier in build to a new one. Apples to apples. No doubt about Martin, Hoffmann, Altendorf, or Reinhard being the best but a 2000+ lb 20 year old saw is still pretty solid for hobby use. I'm not talking you out of a Martin, but if a good condition saw close enough to pick up comes up, you should take a good look. I think some Holz Her were built by Altendorf and are pretty nice. Even the Chinese sourced WA80 is a nice saw. Dave

[Chris Fournier]

There are a lot of sliders that will out perform you before you get to Martin. And yes I've used them and the Martin. Get a good slider with local support.

[Patrick Walsh]

I have not seen the WA 80 in person David but I have been told to steer clear. At least of buying one new that and I guess even used for that matter.

I am inclined to trust your insight though. As I said I have never put my hands on one so.

I’m also told that Altendorf is now being largely outsourced at they have also been purchased and their machines just can’t compare to the high end Martin saws. I would tend to agree as I have put my hands on a F45 Elmo that was only a couple years old. A nice machine indeed but imop not even close to a T-75.

The above really does come down to as many suggest to me “how nice does a machine really need to be”?

[John Sincerbeaux]

I totally agree with there are so many beautiful older machines that are more than capable of meeting most everyone’s performance capabilties. In the last few years, I have purchased a few incredible old machines (thanks to Dave for some great advice) that bring a ton of performance and “sole” to my shop. But, the centerpiece for sure is my Martin Slider.

[David Kumm]

Someone here has the WA80 who is a good machine guy but I have no first hand knowledge. My point is I'd look at anything in good condition and assess. I have ripped 5" thick oak on my SCMI that took two people ( one and one half as I'm old ) to lift and the saw handle it. The old stuff lacked some ergonomics compared to new but the builds were stout. Dave390306

[Brad Shipton]

I guess the question is why do you think you need a Martin? Guys like Joe C need and can justify that type of iron, but for many of us low use types there are other options that will work just fine. I want a Martin slider and shaper one day, but I will have to wait to find an old one to restore like Mike H. I had an option to buy an old one 6months ago from the 90's, but it was still $14k. I would look at the amount of work that goes in to restoring one properly before heading down that path. Both Mark and Joe have documented Martin restorations on the Canadian woodwork site. Mark H's current one is amazing, and it seems unlikely that will sell for $7k when done.

[John Sincerbeaux]

Dave, that seems like a lot of saw to be on those castors?

[Peter Kelly]

There's a very clean and relatively new looking Felder K-915 for $5,600 on New York CL at the moment. Location looks to be Secaucus NJ.

Needs a good home!

[David Kumm]

The Zambus casters are rated for something like 2200 lbs each and i think there are five on the machine. I don't move it much but it needs to get out of the way of the cars. Dave

[Patrick Irish]

What about a hammer k3 or a minimax? Both seem fully capable. Not sure what a new Martin can do that those cannot.

[Patrick Walsh]

I have the Zambia caster on two of my machines. Both machines where purchased new and came with the casters on them. I can attest they are very well built. I also took notice them on that saw.

We use a 80’s f45 at work right now and yes the build quality is awesome except for the phenolic guides that can’t be replaced.

For me when considering a slider two are must haves if I’m gonna spend even $5k. I don’t ever want to be limited by depth of cut at 90% nor on the bevel for the most part. Weekly I find myself limited by the 2.75” depth of cut @90% on our now f45. Just today I was making up a miter wrapped end panel with a 3” return and a 2” return. I cut the whole thing to width then did the glue up knowing the whole thing would have to be cross cut into two panels that stock one atop each other when I was done with the glue up. The fact is my saw can’t do that so I have to employ a more time consuming method. Having more than one panel that needs to finish at the same exact size to make a four sided piece it’s kinda shame it couldn’t be as easy at throwing the panels up on the slider.

Today I also built this continuous grain 2” thick miter wrapped computer monitor thing for a desk I recently built . With the blade at 45% I was barely able to get a 45% in 2” stock. For me at least this is not a limitation I am willing to assume when making such a large purchase $5k or $45K..

I also feel a cross cut fence that can accurately and with ease bevel is paramount.

Others may have different needs but at least for me the two above are a must if I’m gonna spend for anything more than the cost of a regular cabinet saw.

[Gregory Stahl]

I have not seen the WA 80 in person David but I have been told to steer clear. At least of buying one new that and I guess even used for that matter.

I am inclined to trust your insight though. As I said I have never put my hands on one so.

I’m also told that Altendorf is now being largely outsourced at they have also been purchased and their machines just can’t compare to the high end Martin saws. I would tend to agree as I have put my hands on a F45 Elmo that was only a couple years old. A nice machine indeed but imop not even close to a T-75.

The above really does come down to as many suggest to me “how nice does a machine really need to be”?

Can you provide references to Altendorf being outsourced? Altendorf has a very impressive assembly line where they produce the F series and WA80 machines in Germany. If anything, I believe they are growing with new capital investment. Altendorf has over 250 employees just to make saws! Altendorf just bought Hebrock. Their latest press release talks about expanding.

Also, you never have seen a WA80. I have. It is a nice saw. Last I checked, it was $19k. You cannot have a $70k quality machine for $19k. It is a price point machine.

I’m not saying Martin is not a nice machine. I think they have spent a fortune designing it to look impressive.

I could buy two F45s for the price of the high end Martin. My F45 shares the same frame as the most expensive Elmo. To get a Martin in the same price range, I would have to settle for a T60.

-Greg

[Van Huskey]

I strongly recommend you attend the IWF show in Atlanta 8/22-25. Martin, SCMI, Felder, etc will all be there.

I love standing near the Martin booth and measuring the drool strings on the guys leaving the area. I still make the pilgrimage every other year even though the number of companies that appeal to a hobbyist like me has dwindled in the last 10 years. I still enjoy kicking the tires, I usually go before the weekend so I can strike up a conversation with reps and not feel like I am taking them away from potential customers.

[Van Huskey]

What about a hammer k3 or a minimax? Both seem fully capable. Not sure what a new Martin can do that those cannot.

Well it sure ain't gonna make EVERYONE "blue" with jealousy like a Martin... :)

This discussion of hobbyists and Martin reminds me of the most impressive hobby woodworking shop I have ever seen and I am not easily impressed with shops.

This is some stills of Kent Adkins shop in St Louis and before anyone questions it he makes very fine period furniture.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gc8HYBYo0E

The only thing that keeps despair from overwhelming me is he could still use some help on his bandsaw game. Only 2?


BTW he is a member here but I don't think I have ever seen him post.

[Gregory Stahl]

Keep in mind that any 20 year old saw will be substantially heavier in build to a new one. Apples to apples. No doubt about Martin, Hoffmann, Altendorf, or Reinhard being the best but a 2000+ lb 20 year old saw is still pretty solid for hobby use. I'm not talking you out of a Martin, but if a good condition saw close enough to pick up comes up, you should take a good look. I think some Holz Her were built by Altendorf and are pretty nice. Even the Chinese sourced WA80 is a nice saw. Dave

The WA80 is German. WA6 is Chinese.

My Altendorf weighs about 3000lbs, no concrete—all steel and cast iron.

[Van Huskey]

Nevermind found my answer

[Kevin Jenness]

Edward Papa at Simantech on Long Island is a Martin dealer and quite knowledgable. From time to time he takes older machines in trade and resells them. Worth a call.

As others have said, $10k is not going to get you a late model Martin. If you want electronic readouts and positioning you will be paying more. The old ones will last forever if you get one that has not been beat up.

10 years ago I found a 20+ year old T73 in excellent shape for $8500 and the shop that employed me used it until they traded it in on a T60c last year. They got nervous about maintaining it after replacing bearings in the main motor and arbor, but I am sure some shop will be running it happily after I am retired.

[David Kumm]

Greg, sorry about the sourcing screw up. Am I remembering right that you thought the WA80 compared quite favorably or even preferably to the Felder Format saw? Dave

[Jim Becker]

I also agree with the sentiment that while it might be nice to shoot for a particular brand of machine, there are really high quality sliding saws from various brand names that come up on the used market and each should be evaluated individually, especially since there's a budget involved. It's probably more important to understand wear and tear than what color the machine is.

[Gregory Stahl]

Edward Papa at Simantech on Long Island is a Martin dealer and quite knowledgable. From time to time he takes older machines in trade and resells them. Worth a call.



I highly recommend Simantech--great family business to work with. I bought a used SLR saw from him several years ago. It was crated and wrapped up better than many new machines I bought. And the shipping--don't know how to say it--but I don't think he could have found a better way to get it to me. The truck driver beat me to my shop on delivery day and was waiting. When I pulled up I was shocked. A completely custom rig and trailer was on my lot. No pressure to unload--"take your time, my next appointment is tomorrow morning" says the driver! The company he used was a glass shipper. The trailer was compartmentalized for glass panels. It was pretty cool.

[Gregory Stahl]

Greg, sorry about the sourcing screw up. Am I remembering right that you thought the WA80 compared quite favorably or even preferably to the Felder Format saw? Dave

Yes. I had a Felder 900-series saw from 2008-2014 when I replaced it with my current Altendorf F45. I studied the WA80 at Stiles' Grand Rapids training center. It was under power and set-up for use in their demo/training shop. I ultimately went with the F45, but clearly remember deciding the WA80 would be a better option for me than the Format 400 saw. The WA80 is a much larger saw, to be fair. I asked Felder to quote their larger saw and they did not want too for some reason.

Here is an interesting Altendorf video. About half-way through, they show assembly of saws and machining of the table. If you watch close, there is a WA80 mixed in with the F45s on the assembly line. Sorry, it is in German though!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRbTdesYEzw


I really like the SCMI sliding tables. No matter how old the machine is, if it has been taken care of, the table always feels tight and smooth. A buddy bought a small mini-max slider last year. He cleaned up the table and lubed it and it feels just as smooth as the more expensive higher priced saws! I may buy a Mini-Max sliding table shaper based on my experience with his saw. If I had a limited budget of $10k or less, this where I would be looking.

[David Kumm]

The old SCM saws had separate ball bearings held in a plate with holes. The ways of the older saws were curved to match the diameter of the balls with some adjustment. The system seems to hold up pretty well although I've read posts from commercial users who said the eventually there will be wear. I've found it is pretty easy to identify those used machines that have been beaten hard. There will be evidence in the grinding of the fixed table near the blade and lots of wear and chewed up edges on the slider.

The Minimax shaper with the Aluminum table is better than the SCMI T130 NPS which uses a cast iron table. That sliding table is less smooth and the larger table opening puts it quite far from the cutters unless the tenoning attachment is used. I digress. Dave

[Patrick Kane]

Entertaining to read everyone's comparison opinions. As far as the OP is concerned, i echo the other sentiments towards Martin. I dream of owning a T54 one day, but the realistic scenario of me owning a 20" jointer will be in the form of a griggio, scmi, kolle, or some other euro make that isnt blue. ha, unless its maybe an olive green martin that is 30+ years old! Same for a slider. I have a Felder 700 series, and while its a pretty good machine, it isnt nearly as robust as the Holz saws ive used, or even the videos of martin's offerings. Now, its good for me, because i do need to take the outrigger table off when im not using it. I work in a shoebox, and with the outrigger on the saw i have about 11-12" of space to squeeze in between the wall and the crosscut fence. On a martin, this would be considerably more difficult. Their outrigger table is 4-5x as heavy as Felders. I think it weighs 200+ pounds while the felder is around 50, id say. Im sure the martin holds its settings incredibly well, but the felder hasnt disappointed me yet despite removing the table a few dozen times. With that said, i dont get the sense i could sit on the end of the outrigger, and im always tender with placing workpieces on my machines. If its about owning the very best you can buy, then these guys confirmed what you already suspected. However, if its about getting a fantastic saw under $10k, then there are plenty of options out there that would fit the bill. My machine was less than half your budget and its a combo saw/shaper.

[Charles Boone]

Thanks for all the feedback. Seems I will have to lower my sights a bit. A Martin, is probably a bit big for my current shop anyway. However I still think I can get a slider in my two car, lol. I have looked at Altendorf, I even like the wa6, nice looking saw. I have also looked at Hammer and Felder which have some good options. These three are a bit more in my price range. Again thanks for all your comments!

Ash

[Jim Becker]

Charles, for a two car garage, you really may be better served by looking a current offerings from Felder/Hammer and SCM/Minimax rather than the larger, used "industrial" saws that might become available. There are two reasons for that. One is just size...you can get ~8' sliders into most garage sized shops with some careful planning, but getting a ~10'+ slider, which many of the "industrial beasts" are isn't going to work because of the required front to back space for the wagon to have full travel. The other is power...you're going to be forced into dealing with 3 phase power for many of the "industrial" machines, but can get a mighty fine single phase saw from Felder/Hammer and SCM/Minimax with no issue.

[Joe Jensen]

Charles, I have a 3 car garage shop and when I was shopping for a slider in 2009 there were lots of cheap used industrial sliders (recession). I concluded that they were just too large. I ended up buying a new Felder 700 series saw/shaper instead of a used Altendorf or Martin.