Transitioning to Cermark LMM-6060

[Steve Clarkson]

For the past few years I have been using LMM-6038 and have been very satisfied with the results. But since it has been discontinued, I needed to figure out what to switch to. So I bought a 250gm ($200) bottle of LMM-6060 which I think is about $30 more than 6038 was.

Attached are a few pictures....the 6038 is on top (yellow) and the 6060 (green) is on bottom. The first thing I noticed was that the 6060 paste seemed thicker than the 6038......so I had to use more DNA to thin it out (which means it will last longer). But my mixture is no where near precise. It did not seem to spread on the stainless (with a foam brush) as smoothly as the 6038 does.....but that wasn't really a big deal. Because of the dark green color, it is slightly easier to see streaks or spots that were missed. It seemed to take slightly longer to dry than the 6038 (not more than a few minutes longer though....so still not a big deal).

I was kind of surprised that my settings for the 6060 were exactly the same as for the 6038. On my 45 watt Epilog Mini I used 100P/30S. The blackness of the mark was exactly the same too. However, it was a "thinner" mark.....in otherwords, if you look at the attached picture after I washed them.....the 6038 mark looked like Arial Bold whereas the 6060 mark looked like regular Arial. I can't explain that. It's a very subtle difference, but it's easy to tell when comparing them in real life.

I also tested it on brass and it also made a nice dark mark. My settings for that was 100P/9S. But also interesting was that the Cermark seemed to "pull away" after it was engraved (see last pic). You can see the exposed brass between the black mark and the green cermark.

I couldn't tell from this test, but hopefully the 6060 will not leave that staining like the 6038 does.

Overall I'm happy with the results and will keep buying it.

[Kev Williams]

I just did a comparison test between the LMM-6000 I've always used against LaserBond and EnduraMark. I also bought some LMM-14. What I didn't buy was any LMM-6060...

The EnduraMark works good, but it's such a pain to apply. Can't brush it because it won't flow out, and airbrushing consumes a lot more product, which adds up fast when covering 24" x 31" panels. And it's too 'applied-thickness' dependent; the thicker it is, the blacker you get. Which is fine if you can apply it consistently, but I can't make that happen even with an airbrush...

LaserBond works just 'ok', not nearly as black as 6000. And it can't be brushed either, because (a) it doesn't flow out very well either, especially with 'hair' brushes, and (b) it melts foam brushes! Not sure if they're thinning it with acetone, MEK, xylene or what but it's nasty stuff whatever it is...

I haven't even tried the LMM-14 yet. And since you state 6060 doesn't brush well, then I'll just stick with the 6000 I've been using for 16 years. It flows out very nice, is very forgiving as to applied thickness, always consistent results. My only gripes are, it settles very quickly, must always shake up before dipping a brush, and since they changed the formula, it doesn't wash off easily. But, magic erasers wipe it right off. 2 for a buck at the dollar store, so no biggie :)

Lastly, I always test the final product with a few scrubs of a scotchbrite pad make sure it bonded well. On your 'arial-arial bold' comparison, are you sure the bolder version didn't get sent to the laser with a .5 point thicker outline? If not, a scotchbrite test may be in order...

That all said, I'm curious as to whether you've ever used the 6000?

[Mike Null]

My findings about Enduramark and about LMM6000 are similar to Kev's except that I have no issue washing 6000 with water and a rag.

[John Lifer]

Kev, you should try the 14. It is interesting to say the least. It too destroys foam brushes. I use cheap acid brush, but for a large panel I think I'd just use a foam and try and wash. It can actually be thin enough to see some streaks through and still be black. But in my tests with the 6000 I have now, the 14 ends up thicker after lasering, the 6000 is almost flat smooth.

[Kev Williams]

The 14 looks and smells identical to LaserBond- and fwiw LaserBond was developed by the guy who developed Cermark, so there's that :)

My purpose for all the experimenting is to find something my Triumph will make black. I simply cannot use the Triumph to Cermark stainless...
--everything on this op panel was engraved with my 30w GCC (metal Synrad), except for the bold outlines done on the Triumph (glass RECI)
as you can see, they're brownish, while everything else is black...
390102

-and the real disappointment is when you view the panel at different angles,
the outlines nearly vanish--
390103
- And I can't have that! (my customer, thankfully, is okay with the big outlines, but won't accept the whole panel looking that way)

And regardless of the marking agent, I get the same basic results in all my machines as I get with Cermark, with LaserBond not as black.

But ironically, while my metal laser machines, 30 and 40 watt units, don't have the power to consistently put a durable black mark on brass and aluminum, the 80w Triumph shines. And the marks are black, not the vanishing golden brown I get on stainless. Honestly, I don't understand it...

But in the end, the 6000 wins my vote...

[Tim Bateson]

Thanks for your review Steve. I'm a BIG fan of LMM-6038 (except the shadow if left on too long). As both 14 & now 6060 both seem very different, I wonder why 6038 is being phased out? What type of brushes do you recommend for LMM6060?

[Steve Clarkson]

Tim....yes, I know you're a big fan of 6038.....that's the reason I started using it many years ago. I just use standard black foam brushes....they work well for me. FYI......JDS has literally one 250mg bottle of 6038 left.....in Kent, WA...........you better buy it quick before other people read this.........

[Kev Williams]

I have to wonder, old 6038 was yellowish like 6000, LMM-14 is dark, and the new 6060 is 'green'... do you suppose they're just mixing 6038 and 14 together? :)

[John Lifer]

Just to continue the discussion on 6000 Vs 14. Got a decent order for some SS cups and decided to try the 6000. So I took an old 20 oz test cup, sanded off the old 14 engravings best I could without totally cutting thru the steel, yep it adheres well.
and then Ran 8 engravings at various speeds, scan gap and power settings. started at the Lmm14 and went faster, up to 190mm/s and little more power (5% hard to tell exact mA on just engraving) and .08 gap vs .06 I normally used.
Cleaned and scrubbed and I couldn't tell any difference in any of them. All adhered well, even the .08 gap looked good.
And one thing I really notice about the 6000 is that the engraving is SMOOTH. The lmm14 leaves a raised engraving. Guess due to material sticking to cup.

Is this a normal experience? i.e. a fairly wide power/speed range? LMM14 doesn't have that in my experience.