Sharpening Stone Advice

[JohnM Martin]

Needing some advice when it comes to sharpening stones. I'm a couple of years into woodworking with hand tools and started with diamond stones. Sometime back, I decided to try some water stones so I purchased 1000 and 8000 grit Naniwa Super Stones along with a Norton 'Flattening' Stone. Things were great for a while, then I noticed something I wasn't expecting... my planes were cutting in the corners but not the middle - the exact opposite of what you want. Much to my surprise, the flattening stone had become concave (valley in the middle) - leading to my waterstones becoming convex (hump in the middle). This of course, is no good and explains why the plane irons were cutting like they were....


So my first question - why would the flattening stone not stay flat? I guess I assumed it was made for flattening so it should stay flat.

Second question - what should I do? To use the water stones, it seems I will have to buy a lapping plate which seems to be the cost of a whole kit of DMT Diamond Stones. Given they are basically the same cost, is there any reason to go for one over the other (besides personal preference)?

Finally, let me say this, I don't have any loyalties to water stones vs diamond stones... I don't care much for arguments of this vs that. I just want it to be as fast and easy as possible and give me the best edge possible (within reason) that will remain sharp as long as possible. I wan't to get to planing wood and be able to get my smoothing plane sharp enough to not have to get out the sander when it is time for finish.

[Luke Dupont]

I felt the same way as you with regards to waterstones -- especially the synthetics. A Diamond stone is the best solution, but it's a bit odd that I need to buy an expensive diamond stone just to use my water stone...

I want to make a suggestion to give oil stones a good look. Most people write them off as "old fashioned", "slow", and "messy", and so for the longest time, I also wrote them off -- until I tried a Norton India stone, and later some of Dan's Arkansas stones. They were the perfect solution for me: they stay flat, the India stones cut quickly, they're far less messy compared to waterstones and don't require presoaking, and they're not prone to rust. Arkansas stones are great for polishing -- not the fastest stone on the block, but the hard white ones are fine enough to either finish on, or go on to a strop, and are plenty fast enough to quickly remove the scratches from an India. They also stay flat forever.

Quality stones, such as from Dan's, will handle most steels including A2 and Japanese steels, but beware of cheap Arks. India stones are great and will handle just about anything. I'd recommend a Norton Fine or Combination India and a hard white arkansas to anyone getting into sharpening: they're excellent stones which are far too overlooked, in my opinion.

Of course, some people prefer waterstones and that's great too. I'm trying out Jnats now that I'm in Japan and like them quite a bit -- I just don't like that I can't use oil, because some of my tools are very prone to rusting, and I do find water a bit more messy at times (though, less so with Jnats vs Synthetics, as you don't need to presoak and can often use less).

As for flattening and maintenance, by the way, here is my experience with oilstones:

> Fine India (Aluminum Oxide): Stays flat for many months. Over a year or so it will start to dish a bit. I correct this with sandpaper and a flat surface, and then dress lightly with a 400grit diamond plate to make sure that the cutting surface is not dulled by the sandpaper. This keeps my stone flat, cutting fresh and unclogged, and I have to do it at most once or twice a year. I think the perception of oilstones being slow is mostly due to poor maintenance and neglecting this.

> Arkansas Stones: Soft Arks will eventually dish over the years, but I've never had this happen yet: even after several years of using my arks, they're dead flat -- exactly as they came from Dan's.

> Vintage Washitas: Thought I'd mention these too, because they're incredible stones if you can find them on ebay or at antique stores / flea markets. To be clear, I'm speaking of Norton / Pike Washitas, and not modern "Washitas" which are merely low density Arks. They aren't mined anymore and therefore need to be purchased vintage, but were quite common in 2"x8" sizes, such that it's not a bad idea to just buy unlabelled vintage 2x8 stones on ebay in hopes of finding a bargain. These stones were more popular than Arks back in the day, and for good reason: They're very fast for a natural stone, and can at the same time finish very fine if taken to a strop -- even bare leather. They're one of the few stones, natural or synthetic, which excels as a "one stone solution." However, they dish much faster than Arkansas stones do: far less than waterstones, but definitely enough that you may want to take a diamond stone to them for a quick touchup after a couple of heavy sharpening sessions.

[Don Jarvie]

+1 to what Luke says. Oil stones are easier to work with.

[Tom M King]

But not as fast cutting, by maybe a factor of 20 with some water stones.

[JohnM Martin]

thanks for this great info, Luke. I might have to give the oil stones a look. What would you expect to pay (ballpark) to get into a kit of stones that would last a while?

[ken hatch]

Needing some advice when it comes to sharpening stones. I'm a couple of years into woodworking with hand tools and started with diamond stones. Sometime back, I decided to try some water stones so I purchased 1000 and 8000 grit Naniwa Super Stones along with a Norton 'Flattening' Stone. Things were great for a while, then I noticed something I wasn't expecting... my planes were cutting in the corners but not the middle - the exact opposite of what you want. Much to my surprise, the flattening stone had become concave (valley in the middle) - leading to my waterstones becoming convex (hump in the middle). This of course, is no good and explains why the plane irons were cutting like they were....


So my first question - why would the flattening stone not stay flat? I guess I assumed it was made for flattening so it should stay flat.

Second question - what should I do? To use the water stones, it seems I will have to buy a lapping plate which seems to be the cost of a whole kit of DMT Diamond Stones. Given they are basically the same cost, is there any reason to go for one over the other (besides personal preference)?

Finally, let me say this, I don't have any loyalties to water stones vs diamond stones... I don't care much for arguments of this vs that. I just want it to be as fast and easy as possible and give me the best edge possible (within reason) that will remain sharp as long as possible. I wan't to get to planing wood and be able to get my smoothing plane sharp enough to not have to get out the sander when it is time for finish.

John,

The Norton Flattening Stone doesn't. It is basically worthless. Shapton makes a very good diamond flattening stone but it is very expensive, DMT makes a large diamond flattening plate, also expensive but not as expensive as the Shapton. Atoma diamond stones are very flat and relativity cheap. There may be others that will work as well but those are the ones I've used.

Second question. All stones will sharpen but some work "better" i.e. work with you and your iron better than others. That's your job, to find the prince among all the frogs.

ken

[ken hatch]

thanks for this great info, Luke. I might have to give the oil stones a look. What would you expect to pay (ballpark) to get into a kit of stones that would last a while?

John,

Even with oil stones most folks use a flattening stone on occasion.

ken

[lowell holmes]

I sharpen on diamond stones. I have a set of paddles as well as a large plate.

[Andrew Hughes]

If I were in the need of a lapping plate for my stones I would buy a Nano Hone.https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Nano-Hone-C284.aspx
I been using the shaptons Drlp and the glass one for at least 10 years. I think the Nano hone might be better.

[Vincent Tai]

Get an Atoma if you're on a tighter budget. I would get it over a Shapton plate or the DMT plate anyways. It'll be useful for oilstones too. I too would go for a Nano hone, the button tech seems like the last word on lapping plates, Harrelson recently posted himself using the NL-10 to rehab some huge antique metal contraption; went through rust and everything. The NL-5 looks to be a good one for the budget conscious; it's also what Harrelson recommended when I talked to him as my budget was tight. I still haven't saved up enough (seems like woodworking and metalworking is a slow haemorrhage on my wallet) but the Nano hone line is what I'm going to get and I've been through Atoma and DMT plates. I've also used the Norton flattening stone when I first started out, It's only good for knocking down high spots on a real coarse banana stone. I religiously tried keeping it flat with sandpaper and a granite plate but it likes to work itself into a twisted or bow when lapping itself. It is a product that should come with a warning.

[David Bassett]

There are a wide range on diamond plates various folk have successfully used for flattening waterstones. If on an extreme budget drywall screen on a flat surface, e.g. a flat floor tile, can be used. But the diamond plates are easier and less messy. The cheapest I've found that I trust for the job are imported and sold by a small kitchen knife business: JKI Flattening Plate (https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/sharpening-accessories/products/diamond-flattening-plate) -- and it's out of stock right now. I'm sure they'll get more and you may want to email and ask when to see if you are willing to wait. The most commonly preferred choice is an Atoma plate, as already suggested. (Tools from Japan is the cheapest I know of, but can be very slow to arrive.) Their prices vary, but are typically more than the JKI plate. (Often double from US stores.) Then there are generic diamond plates folks find on Amazon, eBay, etc that typically ship from Asia. Many folks are happy and pay even less, but others have reported bad experiences with out of flat plates and/or poorly attached diamond chips. YMMV, but I've never been comfortable going cheaper than the JKI plates where I trust Jon to be careful with his sourcing and QC.

[Luke Dupont]

thanks for this great info, Luke. I might have to give the oil stones a look. What would you expect to pay (ballpark) to get into a kit of stones that would last a while?

Well, it depends on how many stones you want to buy, and what size, but you can easily get started for around $50-$75.

I recommend starting with just two stones: a fine "India" (Aluminum Oxide) around 320-400 grit, and a Hard White Arkansas from Dan's or Norton. I usually use 6"x2"x1" stones, but you can get 8" stones if you prefer more length. I'm not a fan of super wide stones, so 2" is perfectly fine width wise for me personally, but that's personal preference.

Dan's sells what are probably the highest quality Arkansas stones around, and also sells man-made Aluminum Oxide stones that I mentioned:

https://www.danswhetstone.com/product/bonded-abrasives/ (a 6" fine india Aluminum Oxide stone is about $26)
https://www.danswhetstone.com/product/bench-stones/ (a 6"x2"x3/4-1" Hard Arkansas is about $50)

For oil, Dan's honing is great, but you can use any All Purpose / 3-in-1 oil.

You can also buy them on amazon.com:
https://www.amazon.com/Norton-614636855653-8-Inch-Combination-Oilstone/dp/B000XK5ZDY/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1532157078&sr=8-3&keywords=norton+india+stone
https://www.amazon.com/Arkansas-Combination-Sharpening-Whetstone-MFC-6-C/dp/B015AAC0XY/ref=sr_1_3?srs=14748953011&ie=UTF8&qid=1532157241&sr=8-3

Note: The Amazon links are combination stones, which you might prefer. I personally like to have two useable surfaces on my stones though).

If those work out for you, you might also consider a hard black or translucent arkansas as a fine finisher, and a soft ark as a middle stone. Really though, you only need two stones to start out with: a Medium or Fine India / Aluminum Oxide for quick cutting and bevel work, and a Hard Arkansas (Fine) or Translucent/Black Arkansas (Ultra Fine) for finishing.

I usually opt for a strop with Chromium Oxide (the green stuff) instead of a super fine finish stone, though. You can even go straight from a fine India to a strop loaded with chromium oxide and get a very sharp blade, provided you spend enough time on the strop (40 strokes or so).

[Luke Dupont]

But not as fast cutting, by maybe a factor of 20 with some water stones.

Yikes! A factor of 20? Seems a bit of an overstatement, but if we're comparing them to Arks, I'd say a King waterstone is about 3-4 times the speed. It depends heavily on the metal you're cutting though; for super hard steels or lesser quality Arks, it may indeed be something like a factor of 20. One thing to mention is that there is quite a variance in the quality of natural stones.

In comparison to coarse diamond stones, which most people regard as fast, I actually find Aluminum Oxide stones to be faster. The exception being if the stone wasn't maintained at all and is loaded up and the surface dulled, as often happens with old stones. Oilstones are definitely low maintenance, but I think that leads most people to over-neglect them.

Generally a small number of strokes are all that's needed to raise a burr on a chisel or plane iron with an India stone, and then a minute or two on a soft or hard Arkansas will completely erase the scratches.

Arkansas stones are rather slow compared to the synthetic waterstones that I've tried, and even a bit slow compared to Jnats, though. Starting on a Soft Ark instead of an India stone can take a while.

[Oskar Sedell]

you have good stones. Naniwa 1000 and 8000 will work great and you don't need to look for something else, unless you want to. I second the recommendation for the Atoma. I've used the atoma 400 for a long time flattening my waterstones and is stays flat and cutting.

[Brandon Speaks]

If you started with diamond stones why not use one of them to flatten the water stone?

In the end there is no right system and many ways to get to sharp, I used diamond mostly but do have a king 6000 that I have been using quite a bit recently, not sure it is really making the results much better, but using it for now. The final stropping is the key in my opinion. But when it comes to sharpening there are lots of opinions and most are different, and many get good results.

[Tom M King]

King's are about the slowest, or at least some of the slowest, water stones. I used Arkansas stones for 30-some years, and have gone through a number of different types of water stones. My current favorites are the Sigma's. I'm not a hobbyist, so time is important. We still use the oil stones if we're on a site that doesn't have running water, but that would be the only reason. Personally, I don't like diamond stones because there is no feel.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I have gone to an India and an Arkansas. When I used waterstones I just used sandpaper on a flat surface to flatten. A sheet of good sandpaper lasts a lot longer flattening stones then it does sharpening steel.

[Jim Koepke]

Needing some advice when it comes to sharpening stones. I'm a couple of years into woodworking with hand tools and started with diamond stones. Sometime back, I decided to try some water stones so I purchased 1000 and 8000 grit Naniwa Super Stones along with a Norton 'Flattening' Stone. Things were great for a while, then I noticed something I wasn't expecting... my planes were cutting in the corners but not the middle - the exact opposite of what you want. Much to my surprise, the flattening stone had become concave (valley in the middle) - leading to my waterstones becoming convex (hump in the middle). This of course, is no good and explains why the plane irons were cutting like they were....


So my first question - why would the flattening stone not stay flat? I guess I assumed it was made for flattening so it should stay flat.

Second question - what should I do? To use the water stones, it seems I will have to buy a lapping plate which seems to be the cost of a whole kit of DMT Diamond Stones. Given they are basically the same cost, is there any reason to go for one over the other (besides personal preference)?

Finally, let me say this, I don't have any loyalties to water stones vs diamond stones... I don't care much for arguments of this vs that. I just want it to be as fast and easy as possible and give me the best edge possible (within reason) that will remain sharp as long as possible. I wan't to get to planing wood and be able to get my smoothing plane sharp enough to not have to get out the sander when it is time for finish.

It is difficult to answer your question of how your flattening stone became concave without making assumptions that may not be valid.

My solution for flattening water stones is mostly to use abrasive paper mounted on a flat surface. There are other methods, some may be controversial, such as using one stone to flatten another. If not done with care and a well planned strategy, this can end up with the two stones ending up as a pair of hollows and rounds.

Not being one to settle easily on a single method of getting a good edge my choice was to use both oilstones and water stones in my shop. Diamond stones come into play in the kitchen.

jtk

[Doug Dawson]

My solution for flattening water stones is mostly to use abrasive paper mounted on a flat surface. There are other methods, some may be controversial, such as using one stone to flatten another. If not done with care and a well planned strategy, this can end up with the two stones ending up as a pair of hollows and rounds.

Not being one to settle easily on a single method of getting a good edge my choice was to use both oilstones and water stones in my shop. Diamond stones come into play in the kitchen.



A worn-out diamond plate is a really good water stone flattener, and doesn't seem to lead to grit contamination. You gotta do something with them, and it's free (unlike those Nano's which are godawful expensive.)

[Jim Koepke]

A worn-out diamond plate is a really good water stone flattener, and doesn't seem to lead to grit contamination. You gotta do something with them, and it's free (unlike those Nano's which are godawful expensive.)

The free part sounds good. None of my diamond stones are big enough to use for flattening a water stone. The two in the kitchen are fine and x-fine to keep the knives in shape between trips to the stones.

Their being expensive is my main reason for using a different method that works for me.

jtk

[Doug Dawson]

The free part sounds good. None of my diamond stones are big enough to use for flattening a water stone.

They don't have to be as big as the stone to use them for this, just as a jointer plane doesn't have to be as big as the board to true it.

I've used sandpaper on plate glass to flatten, as well, and it's messy, you have to rinse off the sandpaper to avoid massive grit contamination (you're taking a relatively massive amount of material off of the stone.)

Cheap diamond plates are fun to play with (as long as they're flat) until they don't cut good anymore.

[Brian Holcombe]

John,

There is a change in technique that effects this as well and helps to keep the stones flatter longer. I have some stones that I have not flattened in a long time and yet they function as intended. When you use the stone, use the whole stone and as a part of regular technique I put the bevel side partially over the edge of the stone to maintain my camber. It’s more reliable than relying upon the stone surface to help in that regard.

My fine stones are kept flat for work on the back of the iron.

Warren mentioned this technique a few years back, i put it to use ever since.

[Joe A Faulkner]

To the original question, Paul Sellers promotes diamond plates and a strop. Sharpening Supplies currently has a set of four DMT 8x3 plates for $200. I went from scary sharp to water stones and like you don't like the dishing, so I'm considering going the diamond plate route. I know some folks complain about the lack of feedback in using a diamond plate. Sellers looks to spend more time on the trop than he does on the stones, maybe because 1200 diamond stone is what DMT refers to as extra fine.

[ken hatch]

John,

There is a change in technique that effects this as well and helps to keep the stones flatter longer. I have some stones that I have not flattened in a long time and yet they function as intended. When you use the stone, use the whole stone and as a part of regular technique I put the bevel side partially over the edge of the stone to maintain my camber. It’s more reliable than relying upon the stone surface to help in that regard.

My fine stones are kept flat for work on the back of the iron.

Warren mentioned this technique a few years back, i put it to use ever since.


Brian,

I'm not sure I understand your reference to using the bevel side partially over the edge. Do you have a link to the original Warren post or a search term?

ken

[Warren Mickley]

Brian,

I'm not sure I understand your reference to using the bevel side partially over the edge. Do you have a link to the original Warren post or a search term?

ken

Generally when a stone goes out of flat from use it becomes concave. A small concavity is a good thing because it promotes the formation of camber on the iron. Too much of a hollow on the stone encourages too much camber for a smoothing plane or a jointer. The way we counteract that is by using as much length of the stone as possible and by holding a wide chisel or plane iron so it overhangs the edge of the stone so we can concentrate wear at the edges. The edges are neglected if we rub the tool down the middle of the stone. We are managing the wear on the stone and the camber at the same time. The stone has to be trued up much less often, like only after hundreds of sharpenings. We thus save a lot of time and stone wear.

The original poster in this thread had a stone that became convex. It sounds to me as if he was following some formula to decide when to flatten rather than flattening when the stone needed it. We usually wait until we have trouble getting a flat enough camber as evidenced by the way the plane cuts. So if your smoothing plane, for instance, cuts only in the very middle when taking an appropriate thickness shaving, and you can't remedy that by rubbing the center of the blade toward the edge of the stone, maybe it is time to flatten. For many there is a disconnect between the flattening of a stone and the real world ramifications of a stone that needs flattening.

There are some weird statements in this thread. When I read about how inefficient my stones are, I wonder if I can reduce my sharpening time to two or three seconds (full bevel) by changing stones.

[Jessica de Boer]

I've heard the entire line up of Sigma Select 2 stones is very good. I only have experience with the 6000 grit stone from the line up and I think it's probably one of the best higher grit tool stones around because the edge is super smooth. I've been using it for a few weeks now and I make sure the use the entire surface. I have not yet had to flatten it.

One thing I really like is that it behaves very much like a natural stone on Japanese chisels. It releases a good amount of mud on soft steel and only polishes the hard steel.

[Brian Holcombe]

Brian,

I'm not sure I understand your reference to using the bevel side partially over the edge. Do you have a link to the original Warren post or a search term?

ken

I posted a video on youtube some time ago and it shows it, but basically half the edge is hanging off of the stone sometimes when I'm working more camber into an iron. I'm then applying pressure to the side that is still on the stone and working as I normally due to maintain the bevel.

I reduce camber by running the middle of the blade off the corners of the stone, also, if need be. Whatever is needed for the blade, is all.

[Brian Holcombe]

I've heard the entire line up of Sigma Select 2 stones is very good. I only have experience with the 6000 grit stone from the line up and I think it's probably one of the best higher grit tool stones around because the edge is super smooth. I've been using it for a few weeks now and I make sure the use the entire surface. I have not yet had to flatten it.

One thing I really like is that it behaves very much like a natural stone on Japanese chisels. It releases a good amount of mud on soft steel and only polishes the hard steel.

I've only used the 13,000. It's a wonderful stone, and yes does act something like a natural in feel but performs more aggressively. I use it for steels that don't hone well on natural stones (I do have a few exotic steels that require something more aggressive).

I used it for Kez last year and it matched my natural stones for performance in shaving thinness but tended to make an edge which was not as durable (by a few shavings).

[Blair Swanson]

Following the lead of a local Japanese knife sharpener, I apply these stones to my woodworking as well as my Japanese kitchen knives : Naniwa Pro stones : 400, 1000, 3000. Imanishi 8000 (from Lee Valley). For flattening I truly swear by the Atoma #140 diamond plate. This has a plain side on which can be applied another replacement pad. For touching up the 8000, I 1st flatten the 400 w/the Atoma - then use the 400 on the 8000. All of these stones are splash & go which is for me, a huge benefit. They require care in use but are unsurpassed IMO. I even occasionally go straight to the 8000 from that superb 1000 pro. The 400 is only for establishing a new edge. My 'Fine'(600) "dia sharp" still has a place also.
B.

[ken hatch]

Generally when a stone goes out of flat from use it becomes concave. A small concavity is a good thing because it promotes the formation of camber on the iron. Too much of a hollow on the stone encourages too much camber for a smoothing plane or a jointer. The way we counteract that is by using as much length of the stone as possible and by holding a wide chisel or plane iron so it overhangs the edge of the stone so we can concentrate wear at the edges. The edges are neglected if we rub the tool down the middle of the stone. We are managing the wear on the stone and the camber at the same time. The stone has to be trued up much less often, like only after hundreds of sharpenings. We thus save a lot of time and stone wear.

The original poster in this thread had a stone that became convex. It sounds to me as if he was following some formula to decide when to flatten rather than flattening when the stone needed it. We usually wait until we have trouble getting a flat enough camber as evidenced by the way the plane cuts. So if your smoothing plane, for instance, cuts only in the very middle when taking an appropriate thickness shaving, and you can't remedy that by rubbing the center of the blade toward the edge of the stone, maybe it is time to flatten. For many there is a disconnect between the flattening of a stone and the real world ramifications of a stone that needs flattening.

There are some weird statements in this thread. When I read about how inefficient my stones are, I wonder if I can reduce my sharpening time to two or three seconds (full bevel) by changing stones.

Warren,

Thanks, that is basically how I sharpen/use my stones I just wanted to be sure I wasn't missing anything. With ceramic water stones you can go a long time between touch ups, with Ark stones I only flatten if I want faster cutting.

ken

[Jessica de Boer]

I was actually thinking about purchasing the 13000 grit stone as well but then I received a wonderful natural stone from Japan from a friend. My experience with natural stones is limited but he told me it's most likely a Nakayama asagi. I will have to take his word for it. He also told me the edge from this stone will be more durable but since I never purchased the 13000 grit stone I cannot make a comparison.

I do have to say I've found the edge the 6000 grit stone produces to be very durable which is most likely the result of how smooth it is. My husband tried it on one of his kitchen knives and he thought the edge was completely useless precisely because of that reason.

[ken hatch]

I posted a video on youtube some time ago and it shows it, but basically half the edge is hanging off of the stone sometimes when I'm working more camber into an iron. I'm then applying pressure to the side that is still on the stone and working as I normally due to maintain the bevel.

I reduce camber by running the middle of the blade off the corners of the stone, also, if need be. Whatever is needed for the blade, is all.

Brian,

Thanks, Warren answered as well. I'll take a look at your video but it sounds as if we are doing/using our stones pretty much the same way.

ken

[Brian Holcombe]

I was actually thinking about purchasing the 13000 grit stone as well but then I received a wonderful natural stone from Japan from a friend. My experience with natural stones is limited but he told me it's most likely a Nakayama asagi. I will have to take his word for it. He also told me the edge from this stone will be more durable but since I never purchased the 13000 grit stone I cannot make a comparison.

I do have to say I've found the edge the 6000 grit stone produces to be very durable which is most likely the result of how smooth it is. My husband tried it on one of his kitchen knives and he thought the edge was completely useless precisely because of that reason.

If you are using white steel the Nakayama will be very hard to top. Personally I prefer the edge off a natural stone over that of the synthetic even though a 13k is technically a finer stone. For the really hard steels sometimes ill do the cutting with the sigma then finish the edge on a Nakayama.

[Luke Dupont]

I was actually thinking about purchasing the 13000 grit stone as well but then I received a wonderful natural stone from Japan from a friend. My experience with natural stones is limited but he told me it's most likely a Nakayama asagi. I will have to take his word for it. He also told me the edge from this stone will be more durable but since I never purchased the 13000 grit stone I cannot make a comparison.

I do have to say I've found the edge the 6000 grit stone produces to be very durable which is most likely the result of how smooth it is. My husband tried it on one of his kitchen knives and he thought the edge was completely useless precisely because of that reason.

In my experience, natural stones will produce a slightly inconsistent, and shallower scratch pattern which may enhance edge retention and "slicing" cuts. They tend to give a hazy finish rather than a super smooth mirror finish. But, this is considered a positive thing: It's kind of like how hand-made rasps, or hand sharpened saws cut smoother because of their slight imperfections. The edge from a natural stone also tends to be easier to refine on finer mediums like a strop. But this depends heavily on the characteristics of the particular stone you have. Of course, the trade-off is that they generally cut slower*

I'm starting to think that maybe I should try more synthetic stones just so that I can speak more knowledgeably of them, but I really like natural stones -- both Jnats and Arks, and the edge I get from them.

*There are actually some natural stones that are quite fast cutting, and some of them can even be fast and fine in a way that synthetics tend not to be. Such stones tend to be rare / expensive though, especially in the world of Jnats,

[Blair Swanson]

I posted a video on youtube some time ago and it shows it, but basically half the edge is hanging off of the stone sometimes when I'm working more camber into an iron. I'm then applying pressure to the side that is still on the stone and working as I normally due to maintain the bevel.

I reduce camber by running the middle of the blade off the corners of the stone, also, if need be. Whatever is needed for the blade, is all.

Could you please post a link to that video. I can't find it on your channel. Thanks.
B.

[Jessica de Boer]

I would describe the Nakayama I have as a gentle stone. It's quite fast but at the same time not aggressive and my friend explained to me it does indeed produce a shallow and uneven scratch pattern. It also produces a frosty and very bright polish and he explained that because the scratch pattern is shallow and uneven, the light reflects differently compared to an artificial stone, and that's one of the reasons for this frosty and bright polish. Another reason for this type of finish he said, is that at the same time minerals in the stone react with the steel. All I know is I really like how it finishes and the edge it produces.