Advice needed on which Hammer K3 to get

[Steve Wurster]

As a follow-up to my other post (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?266431-Hammer-K3-79x48-size-question) on this subject, I'm looking for some advice on which size Hammer K3 to get. I'm looking at both the 48x48 and 79x48. Obviously I would love to have the longer slider, but the space that it will take up even in the locked position has me concerned.

I've attached a rough drawing of my shop as it is now; each box is 1 square foot. It's a basement shop, so there are no doors to open to increase the room. I have to share space with litter boxes for our cats, but thankfully those are mostly out of my way. The equipment on the left side is mobile, none of them can be used without moving them, and I will often move the router table and bandsaw into the space between the TS and the cabinets at the top when using them. The cart that's in that section is mobile, and it's what I use for assembly and outfeed support. The DC on the right side is mounted to the wall, and space below it is taken up by the dust bin and a shop-vac. Space below the lumber rack is currently taken up by TS blade storage and a few other things, but all of them can be moved if necessary. That "Junk / Lumber" area in the lower left is for oversized pieces that can't fit on the lumber rack, and also includes a half-height IT Computer Rack that I've had for years but plan to get rid of since I never really used it for anything.

The TS infeed is on the bottom in the drawing, meaning I push material toward that mobile cart. It's a contractor-style saw, but since it has a side table and small built-in outfeed it still takes up a decent amount of room. In fact, a Hammer K3 chassis will take up almost the same overall footprint, only encroaching toward the DC slightly. The main difference of course will be the slider, the left side of which will basically line up with the left edge of my current saw. That change however means my body position will change when cutting, as for most cuts I will be standing to the left of the saw. A slider also means that I might have to start from back near that "Junk" area, depending on the size of the material and size of the slider. I think that arrangement can work without much difficulty, regardless of the slider size, since I don't work with full plywood sheets all that often but do occasionally rip long pieces of material.

What I'm concerned mostly about is the amount of space the slider will take up, especially when I'm not actively using the saw. This is especially important for when I'm working in that assembly area behind the saw, since the outfeed portion of the slider will take up some of that space (I think it's like 8-9" for the 48" version, and possibly up to 24" for the 79" version). That's space that I generally use / need. Even if I push the slider all the way to the infeed, the track it rides on sticks out toward the outfeed some in the 79" version. I'm sure I could move the saw to some other location to make room (e.g. toward the litter boxes and toward the DC), but that will encroach on my infeed limits / space.

So, does anyone have any suggestions on which saw I should get? I really do want the 79" slider, but I want to hear what others think about its impact on my shop usage.

Thanks,
Steve

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[Mike Wilkins]

Looks like we have the same size shop. I have my slider along the long, right side wall. I only have a 6 foot sliding table, but I believe I could fit a longer slider. Place any seldom used items on the walls in front of and behind the main body of the saw; I have a tool box on the infeed side, and a short bed lathe on the right wall in front of the saw/outfeed. Neither interferes with the operation of the saw.
After getting dimensions of the longer machine, you could use some tape on the floor and a tape measure to determine the best location.

[Brad Shipton]

I have a Hammer 80" S/S in a similar sized room and it is tight. It is fine when the shop is empty, but when you have carts of material, or you start assembling things, it starts to get crowded. I guess I would ask what type of projects do you mostly do? If you plan on building furniture, then it is wonderful to be able to straight line longer stock or rip down sheet goods. That said, I built a jig to straight line 10' stock on my 80" slider and many shops are building cabinets using cabinet saws.

You must have some large cats cause they have a huge litter box. :D

[Jim Becker]

I don't recall if you've visited here or not, Steve, but I can easily show you what the space requirements are for an 8'6" slider so you can "estimate down" relative to what will work in your own shop. I'm around pretty much all the time since I retired from full time work last fall, so I'm happy to have your stop by. Just contact me privately to set that up at a mutually convenient time.

Longer gives more flexibility, but given you "can" do long rips in the same manner as with a North American design saw, you can get away with a shorter wagon for refining the rip on most project components and, of course, do the precision cross-cutting which is where a slider really, really shines.

[Derek Cohen]

Steve, you have not said what you will use the slider to cut - full sheet goods or solid wood? This could be relevant.

I have the 49" slider, which is perfect for my furniture building, since I do not work with sheet goods, only solid wood.

This is the K3 with unextended slider ...

https://s19.postimg.cc/qachpdrc3/image.jpg

The slider extends to the rear, and stops about 3" short if my bench ....

Not fully extended here, but you get the picture ...

https://s19.postimg.cc/pkjqhefmr/10a.jpg

So, while the table saw is compact like this, quaite a bit of space is needed for the slider extending. It is important to determine what you will use the saw for 90% of the time. For myself, if I needed to cut sheets, it would require a work around. I'd tolerate that since it is so seldom. However, it would be a royal pain in the watsit if I needed to do so reasonably often. The 49" slider is not optimised for that.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Steve Wurster]

Thanks for all the input and advice.

To answer the main question, I mostly work with solid stock, but the length and width vary. I do some work with plywood pieces on occasion, but for the most part those would be partial sheets and not full sheets. I did manage to build a 12 foot wide built-in using just my contractor saw and various infeed and outfeed helpers, but processing that much plywood is a definite rarity.

Jim, I was over your house; I bought a mortiser off you. :-) Your saw is about the size of my shop! But thanks for the offer of having me stop by to take a look again.

Last night I took some pieces I had laying around and placed them on top of my existing saw to kind of mark out where each size slider would be in the locked position. While the 79" slider won't encroach that much, it would become annoying to constantly have to work around it. Plus if I decide to push it toward the infeed in order to make room on the outfeed side, I would then have to squeeze past the extended slider when heading back toward the infeed. The reverse is also true of course. That would get old quick.

Because of these limits, I decided I am going to go with the 48" slider. I know I'll be happy with it no matter what, and while on some occasions I might wish I had the 79" slider, I already feel cramped in the shop sometimes now; I don't want to feel cramped all the time! I can build a jig for ripping longer stock.

Thanks,
Steve

[Derek Cohen]

Just a technicality, Hammer and Felder are European and use metric, not imperial measurements. The slider is 1250mm, and this converts to 49" (actually 49.2126"). Are the versions sold in the USA different?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Steve Wurster]

No, it's the same version as sold elsewhere. It's technically 1250mm but they market it as the 48x48.

[Mike King]

Derek, it looks like you have a router insert in your K3. Is that right? If so, how do you find it relative to a stand alone router table? Steve, you might take note as that would be an option to eliminate a work station and recover some space. You might even consider a combination machine to be even more efficient in your space.

I have a 5 function CF741 and it allows me to use my space more efficiently. Sure, it'd be nice to have separate machines, but I simply don't have the space for them in my current shop (a 3 car garage shared with my spouse's car periodically). And I generally don't find the change over to be that much of a hassle, although it does promote more planning about how to process your work.

Mike

[Jim Andrew]

I have the 79x48, and think I could get by with the 48x48, just use the rip fence to rip longer pieces, including sheets, then crosscut on the slider. Be sure to get the outrigger. I bought new Tenryu blades when I got my Hammer saw, and have yet to use the scoring cutter, so consider it unnecessary.

[Steve Wurster]

Mike, I already own a Hammer A3-31 Jointer / Planer combo (same as Derek, it turns out), so I don't need a combo machine.

I really haven't thought about hanging my router off my saw. I've had my home-built router table for a while now, and not only do I like it but I'm kind of used to it. I might reconsider that in the future though if I find I need the space. I only briefly thought about getting the shaper for the K3 (so it would become a B3), but the added costs involved and the fact that I have my router table turned me away from that.

Steve

[Jim Becker]

Ah, sorry, I completely forgot about the mortiser! LOL Premature senoir moment. But you can still come over and visit...there's a nice CNC taking up a lot of space now, too. I almost know how to use it at this point... :D

On the router, it's not a terrible thing to get it latched onto the saw if you can benefit from the increased space. I know I've enjoyed that, even with the slight lack of headroom while working from the end of the router table for pattern stuff.

[Derek Cohen]

Derek, it looks like you have a router insert in your K3. Is that right? If so, how do you find it relative to a stand alone router table? Steve, you might take note as that would be an option to eliminate a work station and recover some space. You might even consider a combination machine to be even more efficient in your space. ....Mike

Steve, you may not need this now, or may opt to do so later. I found it a big space saver.

My K3 came with the half-size extension ...

https://s19.postimg.cc/rfkbzzhyb/router-space1.jpg

This is where I added the router table ...

https://s19.postimg.cc/9ryzpei03/image.jpg
The underside ...

https://s19.postimg.cc/gqxovvj0z/Router_Raizer_1.jpg

It works well and does not interfere with the rip fence.

https://s19.postimg.cc/wfe8vjxk3/image.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, I have the B3 with the 1250mm slider (49 inch), which is great for me in a small sop as I normally build solid wood furniture.

I don't know if you're considering the outrigger?

I added mine a couple of years after I purchased the B3, and it's really great when processing sheet goods or long or heavy timbers. When not in use, it hangs on the wall as it only takes a minute to attach to the machine. I also have the precision mitre index to cover mitres.

You're going to love your new machine, did you order the mobility Kit?

Regards, Rod.

[Jim Becker]

Derek, that's a really nicely executed setup for your router!

[Steve Wurster]

Rod,

I am ordering the outrigger and mitre index system. I will have to leave it off the saw most of the time due to its size, but I know it will come in handy for those larger pieces.

I did order the mobility kit. I already have the lifting bar from when I got my A3-31, so I just need the wheels on the K3. I don't plan on moving the saw regularly, but I want wheels on there for when I do need to move it!

Steve

[Jim Becker]

Steve, I kept the outrigger off my slider for a long time because it made things uncomfortable sometimes. Once I shortened the right-side table by 16", I was able to leave it on most of the time for convenience (it holds a lot of stuff. LOL) but still occasionally remove it when I have a large job in the assembly and/or finishing process. Fortunately, these things are designed to easily come off and go back on without messing up the setup for square, etc. The biggest hassle is storing the outrigger because of the long "foot".

[Steve Wurster]

Because of the discount prices they're offering right now, the 79x48 is actually a few hundred bucks cheaper than the 48x48 after I add the outrigger, etc. to the latter. If only I had the room for the larger saw!

[Jim Becker]

Make it fit!!!! :) :D

[Steve Wurster]

Make it fit!!!! :) :D

I'm seriously thinking about how I would get the larger saw to fit! Man, this decision just got harder!

[David Kumm]

For what little it is worth, I've got sliders from 18" to 10' and the 80" is my least favorite size. Too short for long stuff and too long for short stuff. You can modify your methods but if you are pushing for space, a slider short enough for the table to rest flush with the fixed front of the saw is a handy compromise. My 80" slider gets use but the short stroke machines get far more. The 10' kind of does it all but it takes up so much room it is in another building. Dave

[Patrick Kane]

Ill add to what David says. I have an 80" Felder KF700, and while I like the extra stroke over a 48-49" saw, i would strongly dislike it as my sole saw. A 10' stroke would cover 99% of my ripping needs off the wagon. An 80" stroke does not, and even worse, the footprint of the saw turns it into an awkward machine to traditionally use the rip fence. For me, i have a unisaw right next to it as a dedicated ripping saw, but if i didnt, i would somewhat dislike my 80" felder. Atleast with the 48-49" stroke, you have a traditional cabinet saw footprint when the table is locked. Greater than that is when you have to dance around the added support for the longer table carriages. From my standpoint, i rip over 80" somewhat frequently. I rarely crosscut something greater than 48" in width. By the time it gets bigger than 50", im reaching for the festool track. I bought my machine used at a great price, so i didnt mind the shortcomings of a 80" wagon. In the future, i feel like it would have to be 10' or 4', if i could only have one table saw.

[Jim Becker]

I'm seriously thinking about how I would get the larger saw to fit! Man, this decision just got harder!

I gotz time available if you want to get a second "totally unbiased" (LOL) opinion on how you might squeeze it in. :) It's not like you live far away, you know...

[Steve Wurster]

I gotz time available if you want to get a second "totally unbiased" (LOL) opinion on how you might squeeze it in. :) It's not like you live far away, you know...

Jim, I'm going to take you up on that. I'll send you a DM.

[Mike Weaver]

Not to hijack - has anyone gotten the 79x48 K3 into a basement/ Can the slider be removed for such a move and reattached without "too" much fuss?
Looking hard at a new TS and the K3 indeed looks like a potential "Winne"r.

Back on topic - agree with Jim, I'd have to make it (larger for less $$) fit. ;-)

Best wishes for a smooth acquisition and many happy years of using it!!

Regards,
-Mike

[Steve Wurster]

Not to hijack - has anyone gotten the 79x48 K3 into a basement/ Can the slider be removed for such a move and reattached without "too" much fuss?
Looking hard at a new TS and the K3 indeed looks like a potential "Winne"r.

My K3 is going to go into my basement, but I'm hoping to not remove the slider. I put an A3-31 down there 2 years ago, via a Bilco door. It was a bit of a pain, with me building a ramp and sliding the unit on its pallet down there by connecting straps to a pickup and slowly driving it down. I'll probably do something very similar for the K3.

I know Rod Sheridan moved his B3 into his basement by building a cool looking contraption. Rod, do you have any more detail on the thing you built for that?

Thanks,
Steve

[Van Huskey]

As an aside does anyone find it odd to see pictures of Derek's shop filled with machines? For me it is kinda like finding out a friend is cheating on his wife. Not that I see anything wrong with cheating in this sort of case, my hand tools and I have an open relationship, or I guess it is more like a 3-way marriage what do the "kids" call it now? A throuple?

[Patrick Kane]

I’m in a basement, but it has a door on grade. When you break the machine down to the main table/chassis and slider carriage, it’s like 32.75” wide. It barely fit through my man door. It’s also an enormous PITA to take the machine apart and put it back together.

[Rod Sheridan]

Sounds like you have everything considered Steve.

Don't forget to make a Fritz und Franz and a deflector wedge.

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Regards, Rod.

[Steve Wurster]

Sounds like you have everything considered Steve.

Don't forget to make a Fritz und Franz and a deflector wedge.

Regards, Rod.

Oh, those are totally on my list of jigs to make. Thanks for the plans for the deflector wedge!

[Steve Wurster]

Rod,

Can you provide more details on that stair-climber thing you made to bring your B3 into your basement?

Thanks,
Steve

[Mike Weaver]

Rod,

Can you provide more details on that stair-climber thing you made to bring your B3 into your basement?

Thanks,
Steve

Steve,
Thanks for the earlier reply.

Rod,
I too would be interested in anything you can share about the "stair climbing thing" :)

Thanks,
-Mike

[Van Huskey]

Cost a little money but you can rent trucks like these:


https://youtu.be/rycfK_8o0lk?t=14


Multiple variations of these are built and also manual ones with 3 wheels that rotate.

[Jim Becker]

At about 5pm today, I became the official SMC "enabler" and I think Steve might be closer to his decision. :) :D It's so nice to help folks spend money. LOL

[Steve Wurster]

At about 5pm today, I became the official SMC "enabler" and I think Steve might be closer to his decision. :) :D It's so nice to help folks spend money. LOL

Yeah, Jim stopped by and convinced me that I can fit the 79x48 into my shop. It might be tight on occasion, but I think it will work fine. Thanks again, Jim!

Steve

[Jim Becker]

ALWAYS a pleasure... (to spend someone else's money LOL) But seriously, I really do think it will work and the deal is much better, too.

[Rod Sheridan]

Rod,

Can you provide more details on that stair-climber thing you made to bring your B3 into your basement?

Thanks,
Steve

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Hi, it's a wedge shaped frame with a winch.

I had to make it because the top of my stairs has a very small right angle landing, so the machine had to be pushed onto the stair climber so it could be sent down the stairs.

If I had a straight run down the stairs I would have just winched it straight down

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The B3 is on a piece of plywood with casters, I had to use the shipping pallet to make a temporary landing for the main house entrance.

Here's a shot of the B3 going through the front entrance.
390347............Rod.

[Jim Becker]

Tight squeeze on that last photo, Rod!!

[Bryan Lisowski]

Rod what did you use to grease the sides of that thing?

[Mike Weaver]

Thanks for the pictures Rod!

-Mike

[Rod Sheridan]

Tight squeeze on that last photo, Rod!!

Come on Jim, I had almost 1/4" to spare overall:D

Like I always tell the guys at work when we're moving equipment, if you can fit a business card between the pieces you have enough clearance.......Rod.