Setting pins on gauge wider than chisel??

[Seth Terndrup]

Hey all,

I was watching a bench build video and the builder (Paul Sellers) says to set the mortise gauge pins just a hair proud of the chisel. This is for the cross rails into the legs, which is done with a through tenon.

Anyway, Paul doesn’t explain why to set the pins a little wider than the chisel. I get that the tenon will be marked with the same gauge setting so it shouldn’t matter. However it seems to me that having the gauge lines wider than the chisel will make chopping the mortise a pain in the butt. For example, where do you put the chisel: somewhere in between the gauge lines or up against one line or the other and try to be consistent as you move along chopping??

Someone told me that this is common practice for through tenons, i.e., setting the pins a little wider than the chisel, in order to have the tenon a little fat to prevent any gaps where the tenon protrudes.

Is this true or is this making things unnecessarily complicated?

Thanks!!

[Simon MacGowen]

Anyway, Paul doesn’t explain why to set the pins a little wider than the chisel.

Thanks!!

I don't think he does. You can rewatch his youtube on M&T and he was saying something like right in between the tips of the gauge. There is little to gain by setting the gauge wider than the chisel whether it is a bench chisel or mortising chisel.

Simon

[Seth Terndrup]

Watch video 3 of the new bench build at 1:40.

He clearly says it, which when comparing to his other vids he clearly says to set the tips of the pins to the outer corners of the chisel.

[Warren Mickley]

Paul Sellers marks out the mortise larger than the chisel. He is planning to come back later and pare the side walls of the mortise on the gauge lines. (Video 4 19:00 minutes). His mortise is sloppy because he does not know how to use a mortise chisel.

If you are going to bore holes for the mortise and then clean up with a chisel it is nice to make the gauge lines a bit wide. If you want to make a mortise right off the mortise chisel and a tenon right off the saw, then you want to match the gauge to the chisel.

[Seth Terndrup]

I have heard people say never to pare the mortise and instead pare the tenon. Is this accurate?

[Simon MacGowen]

Watch video 3 of the new bench build at 1:40.

He clearly says it, which when comparing to his other vids he clearly says to set the tips of the pins to the outer corners of the chisel.

Never watched his workbench vid...I don't like any bench without dog holes.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

I have heard people say never to pare the mortise and instead pare the tenon. Is this accurate?

Paring tenons to fit mortises is easier, but I have come across people who cut tenons first (and then cut and pare mortises to fit the tenons). I have even seen some writing that goes with the tenons first (can't remember where I read it).

Simon

[Warren Mickley]

I have heard people say never to pare the mortise and instead pare the tenon. Is this accurate?

In general you want to think about what you are doing, rather than just collect rules to follow.

If you are making a through mortise, coming in from both sides, and they do not quite meet, you will want to pare inside for a correction. If you can see that you did not quite saw to the line, you will want to correct the tenon. Use your judgement.

If you set the gauge to your mortise chisel width and then use the gauge to mark out both mortise and tenon, it does not matter which part of the joint you make first.

[bridger berdel]

In general you want to think about what you are doing, rather than just collect rules to follow.

Exactly. Thank you for that.

[Luke Dupont]

I've watched Paul's videos and seen him do a bunch of things in different ways, depending on the circumstances. Rarely do I see him pare the walls of the mortise to fit rather than the tennon.

I often set my mortise gauge larger than my chisel if I'm also using it to mark my tennon. This makes sure the tennon is a hair larger than the mortise in width, allowing me to pare it down and get a good fit.

The width of the mortise is gauged by the width of the chisel usually -- not any lines or marks on the wood, which are only there to keep you straight and centered (unless you're doing something where you don't have a chisel the right width, like making an oilstone box, for instance -- or you bored holes first).

There are exceptions to every rule, so it's not good to just follow rules you don't understand.

[Jim Koepke]

Doesn't it come down to knowing what your layout lines represent and working to those lines?

If setting a mortise gauge dead on, a hair skinny or a hair fat helps you, then do it. For me setting the gauge to the chisel and then leaving the lines when sawing the tenon works.

Like so many things there are probably a dozen ways to do a fine job of the same task.

jtk

[Brian Eaton]

Having just finished my own Paul Sellers style bench build earlier this summer I might have a bit of insight. Whether it is good or not is another story, but...

I marked all of my leg mortises just a hair larger than the chisel (maybe 1/32nd or so?). I did chop out the first few like Sellers does and found that appreciated having a bit of wiggle room to clean up the inside faces of the mortise a bit. After 3-4 of the 8 getting chopped with a bench chisel I went to drilling out and pairing the mortises a bit out of laziness - it was very labor intensive to chop them out completely.

Once all of the mortises were complete i used the same marking gauge setting for the tenons, sawed leaving the lines, and paired down while testing the fit with my router plane like Sellers does. It worked very well and the only issue i had was that a few of the mortises ended up longer than the tenon - likely a marking error on my part.

On a separate note - you can definitely have benchdog/holdfast holes on a Sellers style bench! I drilled out several on the bench top and have really enjoyed using my holdfasts - those, along with a simple doe’s foot have really made my work holding better and more versatile.

[Simon MacGowen]

On a separate note - you can definitely have benchdog/holdfast holes on a Sellers style bench! I drilled out several on the bench top and have really enjoyed using my holdfasts - those, along with a simple doe’s foot have really made my work holding better and more versatile.

Just a clarification: I was not implying Sellers' bench design could not be modified so it could be used with holdfasts, etc. I was simply saying I did not watch that video series because with his design, the video didn't interest me. I have watched many of his youtube videos, again based on whether the topic was of interest to me.

I have not done any M&T joint by marking the mortises wider than a chisel I used (mortising or bench chisel which I tried on a recent project), as I usually don't drill out the waste first. Drilling out the waste sure will be more efficient in removing waste.

Speaking of Sellers, he should really stop mentioning about his 50 years of experience almost every time he shows something, because by now, anyone who does not know about his experience must have lived under a rock (although I did come across a comment in a blog in which the writer asked if he was qualified). Be confident about the technique you demonstrate without mentioning that you have done that for 35, 45 or whatever years. As long as it works, who cares if this is the first time you do it.

By the way, he is not alone...another editor-turned-publisher also has a similar behavior in which he often has to refer back to his x no. of years of experience in so-and-so, or to a commissioned piece he built, etc. to support what he writes about. There is no need for any of that to establish your authority.

Simon

[Richard Hutchings]

Speaking of Sellers, he should really stop mentioning about his 50 years of experience almost every time he shows something, because by now, anyone who does not know about his experience must have lived under a rock (although I did come across a comment in a blog in which the writer asked if he was qualified). Be confident about the technique you demonstrate without mentioning that you have done that for 35, 45 or whatever years. As long as it works, who cares if this is the first time you do it.

By the way, he is not alone...another editor-turned-publisher also has a similar behavior in which he often has to refer back to his x no. of years of experience in so-and-so, or to a commissioned piece he built, etc. to support what he writes about. There is no need for any of that to establish your authority.

Simon
I don't know why that bothers you, I think it's relative information although anyone with 5 years of woodworking and watching YouTube these days should be pretty competent. I'm sure some of his methods were learned in recent years because we all continue to learn. He now uses diamonds for sharpening but he has learned all the other methods as well so he has a great foundation or base of knowledge because of his 50 years. I'm OK with him repeating this fact. I'm also OK with you being annoyed by it, I'm not trying to belittle or be negative. Just adding my opinion and like @$$holes, we all have them and this is completely off topic, Sorry.

[Simon MacGowen]

I'm OK with him repeating this fact. I'm also OK with you being annoyed by it, I'm not trying to belittle or be negative. Just adding my opinion and like @$$holes, we all have them and this is completely off topic, Sorry.

It is a sign of weakness...which Sellers does not have when it comes to demonstrating whatever technique practiced for 50 years. Or is it a sign of lack of confidence?

Oh, by the way, I am saying this out of my 30 years+ of public speaking experience (or is it 35?).

Simon

[John C Cox]

Seriously? Why does Paul need to remind people that he is a seasoned professional? This is YouTube! It's 100 million videos of somebody's first time doing something, 200 million videos of hacks doing something wrong, and 2 videos of a professional doing things the professional way...

And any time a professional posts a professional method - all the hacks and amateurs who have never even done it once swoop down to complain and poo all over it...

[Jim Koepke]

[edit]
And any time a professional posts a professional method - all the hacks and amateurs who have never even done it once swoop down to complain and poo all over it...

Welcome to the internet where no one knows if you are a dog. :D

jtk

[Tom M King]

"In general you want to think about what you are doing, rather than just collect rules to follow." by Warren Mickley

Best advice I've seen in a long time. Feel free to come up with your own method that works for you.

[Seth Terndrup]

Simon - feel free to not reply to my questions. You’re too experienced for me. I’m probably not worthy of your wisdom.

And regarding the comment about not just collecting rules but rather thinking. This is condescending and presumptive. There is nothing wrong with a beginner learning some rules of thumb.

There are some real jacks on this board.

Thanks to those of you who answered the question.

[Simon MacGowen]

Simon - feel free to not reply to my questions. You’re too experienced for me. I’m probably not worthy of your wisdom.

.

I was not the one who talked about following rules and have no clues which of my comments or why you feel upset about. You sure you are targeting the right person?

But for the record, I agree with Warren's advice that one needs to understand the rules and apply the rules with judgment.

Simon

[Brian Holcombe]

Simon - feel free to not reply to my questions. You’re too experienced for me. I’m probably not worthy of your wisdom.

And regarding the comment about not just collecting rules but rather thinking. This is condescending and presumptive. There is nothing wrong with a beginner learning some rules of thumb.

There are some real jacks on this board.

Thanks to those of you who answered the question.

Warren’s giving you genuine advice in his comment. It’s not malicious, rather it is a very thoughtful comment that while blunt is far more helpful than providing a rule of thumb.

[Pat Barry]

Thats a great video series. Lots of practical methods and well explained. He states, at around 2 min mark of tape 3, to have the chisel "just fit or slip" between the pin tips. I suppose this is a hair oversize, but this is really inconsequential in the end. Dont stray outside the gage lines when chopping. He does mention "doing some fetteling" to finish off the mortice at the end of this tape. I suppose that might mean or include paring to the gage lines.

[Seth Terndrup]

Warren’s giving you genuine advice in his comment. It’s not malicious, rather it is a very thoughtful comment that while blunt is far more helpful than providing a rule of thumb.

Nope, disagree

[Seth Terndrup]

Ya, I have really enjoyed watching Paul’s vids. He seems like a stand up guy, with a lot to share, for the right reasons.

[Bob Glenn]

While setting my mortising gauge to the width of my chisel, it occurred to me that I didn't really need two lines. I now just use a regular marking gauge and score one line, then use that line to guide my chisel. The chisel determines the width and does the rest. Keep it simple. What ever works do it. Bob

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Nope, disagree

Brian is correct. There are some jerks on the board, but I don’t count Warren among them. He gave you two specific examples of why you want to think through what you are doing instead of simply applying a rule of thumb.

Hand tools are different from power tools. Running a board over a powered jointer a few times might get it flat. Running a hand plane over a board a few times will only get it flat if you are thinking about what you are doing.

[Jim Koepke]

Simon - feel free to not reply to my questions. You’re too experienced for me. I’m probably not worthy of your wisdom.

And regarding the comment about not just collecting rules but rather thinking. This is condescending and presumptive. There is nothing wrong with a beginner learning some rules of thumb.

There are some real jacks on this board.

Thanks to those of you who answered the question.

When you ask a question about woodworking in a public forum you should be ready to receive and accept many different answers.

There isn't a single task in woodworking, to my knowledge, that can be done only one way.

For some reason this reminds me of a scene from Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. In prelude to a knife fight Butch Cassidy says, "let's go over the rules." His opponent is outraged and yells, "rules in a knife fight! There are no rules in a knife fight." Then Butch swift kicks him below the belt.

So for the sake of civility, when you ask a question and another person with years of knowledge offers an answer you do not like, don't kick back below the belt.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Ever stop to consider...that there are some out there...that do not even USE a gauge.....and do just fine. Others view a gauge as a crutch, and can not do a thing without it...

Have seen more than a few benches out there.....some with maybe a dozen gauges in use at once.....others? Not a one to be seen.....

Myself? I cut the tenons first....then lay out each mortise to fit each tenon.....pencil to mark it out, leave the lines....simple as can be.

Main rule in the Dungeon Shop? K. I. S. S. Soooo...... YMMV.

[Simon MacGowen]

Myself? I cut the tenons first....then lay out each mortise to fit each tenon.....pencil to mark it out, leave the lines....simple as can be.



I only know of two fellas in person who do M&T the way you do: tenons first, one using power tools only (tablesaw and mortiser). The traditional guy uses a guide block for chopping his mortises, not freehand though (like using a dovetail guide to saw dovetails). I suppose you guys are qualified to call yours a T&M joint.:D

Simon

[steven c newman]

390037
Eeeehhhh, could be...
390038
Maybe...
390039
Ya think?

[Jim Koepke]

If it works, that's all that matters.

jtk

[Charles Guest]

Hey all,

I was watching a bench build video and the builder (Paul Sellers) says to set the mortise gauge pins just a hair proud of the chisel. This is for the cross rails into the legs, which is done with a through tenon.

Anyway, Paul doesn’t explain why to set the pins a little wider than the chisel. I get that the tenon will be marked with the same gauge setting so it shouldn’t matter. However it seems to me that having the gauge lines wider than the chisel will make chopping the mortise a pain in the butt. For example, where do you put the chisel: somewhere in between the gauge lines or up against one line or the other and try to be consistent as you move along chopping??

Someone told me that this is common practice for through tenons, i.e., setting the pins a little wider than the chisel, in order to have the tenon a little fat to prevent any gaps where the tenon protrudes.

Is this true or is this making things unnecessarily complicated?

Thanks!!

I have no idea if Paul Sellers practices what he preaches. He suffers from logorrhea on the presentations of his I've watched on YouTube. Most would be better made in half the time, with half or less verbiage.

On to the joint itself. The chisel should sit just inside the pins of the gauge by the same amount as the depth of the mark the pins will make -- basically just barely. For the mortise, there will be whisps of the lines left after chopping, ditto for the tenon which will need a stroke or two from a shoulder plane on each face to make a perfect, tight fit. The mortise is always only as wide as the chisel, regardless of how you gauge it. Never pare the walls when chopping mortises. You only pare the walls if you choose to use the drill-and-pare method, naturally. It is absolutely possible to chop twist into a mortise, especially with a chisel that is a slight parallelogram in cross section. These are actually the best ones to use, they don't get stuck as readily, but you can't just wail away. Cut the mortise, don't bash it out or take the day's frustrations out on it. Forget all the 18th and 19th century pieceworker stories you've heard about how many joints they could execute in an eleven hour day. Some speed will come over time.

Note well: only a stroke or two on the tenons with the shoulder plane, we aren't talking about a long, involved fitting process that takes longer than it did to actually saw the tenons. The proverbial 'fit right off the saw' is often, in actual fact, too loose. If it takes more than a stroke or two with the shoulder plane then you were too bashful with the saw vs. the line. If you have to trim the tenons a lot, and lose the lines, and it all becomes a big muddle, then there is a huge likelihood that you will trim twist into at least a few of them and this is practically fatal. The only fix is to whittle them down to a loose fit and then you've made a very poor joint at that point, and increased its chances of failure by a large margin. The fix is packing them out with veneer, but that's a hassle. Try to do the live joints right the first time, though after executing some decent practice joints first.

[ken hatch]

I have no idea if Paul Sellers practices what he preaches. He suffers from logorrhea on the presentations of his I've watched on YouTube. Most would be better made in half the time, with half or less verbiage.

On to the joint itself. The chisel should sit just inside the pins of the gauge by the same amount as the depth of the mark the pins will make -- basically just barely. For the mortise, there will be whisps of the lines left after chopping, ditto for the tenon which will need a stroke or two from a shoulder plane on each face to make a perfect, tight fit. The mortise is always only as wide as the chisel, regardless of how you gauge it. Never pare the walls when chopping mortises. You only pare the walls if you choose to use the drill-and-pare method, naturally. It is absolutely possible to chop twist into a mortise, especially with a chisel that is a slight parallelogram in cross section. These are actually the best ones to use, they don't get stuck as readily, but you can't just wail away. Cut the mortise, don't bash it out or take the day's frustrations out on it. Forget all the 18th and 19th century pieceworker stories you've heard about how many joints they could execute in an eleven hour day. Some speed will come over time.

Note well: only a stroke or two on the tenons with the shoulder plane, we aren't talking about a long, involved fitting process that takes longer than it did to actually saw the tenons. The proverbial 'fit right off the saw' is often, in actual fact, too loose. If it takes more than a stroke or two with the shoulder plane then you were too bashful with the saw vs. the line. If you have to trim the tenons a lot, and lose the lines, and it all becomes a big muddle, then there is a huge likelihood that you will trim twist into at least a few of them and this is practically fatal. The only fix is to whittle them down to a loose fit and then you've made a very poor joint at that point, and increased its chances of failure by a large margin. The fix is packing them out with veneer, but that's a hassle. Try to do the live joints right the first time, though after executing some decent practice joints first.

Charles,

Hard lesion to learn but it sure is easier and better to tap, tap, lever than whack, whack, then try to remove a stuck chisel that has twisted. Like most things in life mortising goes better with a gentle touch.

ken

[Jim Koepke]

Mine start out with a light touch to get started, then it is full speed ahead. Somehow they still turnout straight and fitting well:

390076

24 M&T joints, 24 draw bore pins and no glue.

jtk

[lowell holmes]

Showoff! :)

[Jim Koepke]

You got to know when to tap them
Know when to whack them
Know when to pry one way
and when to move your thumb...

jtk

- with apologies to Kenny Rogers

[Jim Koepke]

In looking back to reread this thread this question caught my eye:


I have heard people say never to pare the mortise and instead pare the tenon. Is this accurate?

Good comments on why and why not to pare.

My practice is to check and insure the mortise is square before cutting a tenon. Once the mortise is 'proper' it is left alone. All adjustments after that are done to the tenon.
Of course if an error is discovered there may need to be an exception to the procedure.

jtk

[Chris Parks]

When you ask a question about woodworking in a public forum you should be ready to receive and accept many different answers.

There isn't a single task in woodworking, to my knowledge, that can be done only one way.

For some reason this reminds me of a scene from Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. In prelude to a knife fight Butch Cassidy says, "let's go over the rules." His opponent is outraged and yells, "rules in a knife fight! There are no rules in a knife fight." Then Butch swift kicks him below the belt.

So for the sake of civility, when you ask a question and another person with years of knowledge offers an answer you do not like, don't kick back below the belt.

jtk

I see a lot of criticism of Paul Sellers here and in other places, he has an acknowledged many years of trade and commercial experience earning his living from woodwork, some of it from people who are hobby woodworkers.

[Derek Cohen]

There is much good that PS offers, if one can ignore the evangelising. I am happy to watch him work and there are nuggets to glean. Keep in mind that his methods and jigs (e.g. for tenon paring) are aimed at new woodworkers.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Simon MacGowen]

I see a lot of criticism of Paul Sellers here and in other places, he has an acknowledged many years of trade and commercial experience earning his living from woodwork, some of it from people who are hobby woodworkers.

That's it!

The OP wasn't displeased with what he read about the advice to his questions but got upset about the negative comments he saw about Sellers.

If he had read my past posts, he would have known I call a spade a spade. I have also defended Sellers strongly here but when I disagree with him, I don't duck. Anyone who reads his blog also knows he doesn't duck and is a stronger defender of himself. He rarely accepts in his replies views contrary to his.

Also for the record, I agree with the comment about the length of his videos which often can be halved...but they are free. And we enjoy them.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

Keep in mind that his methods and jigs (e.g. for tenon paring) are aimed at new woodworkers.

Regards from Perth

Derek
I am not entirely sure that Sellers carries two sets of techniques (at least for most things), one for his audience and one for himself. He is passionate about his methods and he shares them because they work for everyone, new woodworkers or not.

I have seen people using the Stanley knives because of him and they are by no means new woodworkers. Sellers actually has used mostly bench chisels for mortising in his work and not because he thinks bench chisels are for new woodworkers, mortising chisels for the seasoned ones.

Simon

[Jim Koepke]

That's it!

The OP wasn't displeased with what he read about the advice to his questions but got upset about the negative comments he saw about Sellers.

If he had read my past posts, he would have known I call a spade a spade. I have also defended Sellers strongly here but when I disagree with him, I don't duck. Anyone who reads his blog also knows he doesn't duck and is a stronger defender of himself. He rarely accepts in his replies views contrary to his.

Also for the record, I agree with the comment about the length of his videos which often can be halved...but they are free. And we enjoy them.

Simon

Compared to some threads the negative comments about Sellers in this thread have been rather restrained.

Likewise, my preference is for shorter videos getting to the point without the pontifications and excess verbiage.

As far as provenance or awards go, it is likely Ikea furniture has won more awards than Mr. Sellers furniture.

That is no reason for me to start making furniture with the same methods Ikea uses.

jtk

[Charles Guest]

Charles,

Hard lesion to learn but it sure is easier and better to tap, tap, lever than whack, whack, then try to remove a stuck chisel that has twisted. Like most things in life mortising goes better with a gentle touch.

ken

The more noise and sweat one makes with chisel and mallet, the slower the going. It's absolutely just like pressing a saw - you'll do less work in the end! You may look like you're working to beat all hell, but you won't get as much done.