Air powered orbital sanders?

[Matt Day]

I’ve only used electric ROS’s, and have someone asking me about air powered ROS’s. I’m guessing some pro shops use these? Can anyone suggest some make/models I should look at?
Thanks

[David Kumm]

Dynabrade is the main brand. Their 3/16 orbit is the one most used. 3/8 is pretty aggressive and hard to handle. The 3/32 is fine but I find the 3/16 leaves such a good finish I seldom need the fine one. You need about cfm to run them which equates to a full 5 hp ( real hp ) 80 gallon compressor. The larger the tank, the less likely you are to need a dryer. I use a dryer in humid weather to keep the sander from spitting. 3 m makes sanders almost identical. If you have the compressor, air sanders are hard to beat. Dave

[Matt Day]

Perfect David, thank you. I was going to help my friend buy a new compressor but needed to figure out what the sanders draw in terms of cfm.

[Van Huskey]

Since Dave gave what I think is a great answer I will add an aside. Mirka, in particular, is pushing their brushless electrical sanders into the markets that have been strictly pneumatic for decades. The power, longevity and form factor of brushless DC motors is starting to make a serious business case for electric. They are MUCH cheaper to run than pneumatic and I have a funny feeling pneumatic sanders days are numbered in industrial and commercial settings.

[Doug Dawson]

I’ve only used electric ROS’s, and have someone asking me about air powered ROS’s. I’m guessing some pro shops use these? Can anyone suggest some make/models I should look at?
Thanks

The problem with air-powered sanders is that they require oiling (preferably inline) and there's always an issue of residual oil spitting on the wood, which is bad mojo re finish contamination. I would never dream of using them for woodworking. This is not something you should be thinking about.

[David Kumm]

Doug, your point is well taken. I've never had oil on the wood but dry air is important to reducing the amount of oil needed. A few drops every hour or two is about all I ever need as a hobby guy. You also need a vac attachment for any sander. Buying a compressor for sanding ( and a dryer ) screws up the economics compared to a Mirka type electric so you need to have the large compressor on hand. Like any tool, you have to learn how to use it correctly. Applies both to the sander and the compressor. A slow running compressor with a large tank, good filters, and some way to capture the moisture are critical. You can't go to Home Depot and expect a great result with a compressor. Dave

[Kevin Jenness]

A good air-powered sander doesn't spit oil. They are standard in most commercial woodshops for good reasons; ergonomics, longevity and productivity. They do take a ridiculous amount of power vs electric ones and Mirka makes a very good sander, but I doubt the electronics will last as long as a minimally maintained Dynabrade at 1/3 the purchase price.

[Martin Wasner]

Since Dave gave what I think is a great answer I will add an aside. Mirka, in particular, is pushing their brushless electrical sanders into the markets that have been strictly pneumatic for decades. The power, longevity and form factor of brushless DC motors is starting to make a serious business case for electric. They are MUCH cheaper to run than pneumatic and I have a funny feeling pneumatic sanders days are numbered in industrial and commercial settings.

This.

We just bought two more Deros sanders.

My air compressor costs about $.15/min to operate. I don't know what it costs to run a Deros, but I'm pretty sure the five we have, all running at once, won't cost that. With 53cfm my compressor can really only keep up with three at a time as well.

We still use air sanders for some things. The maneuverability and balance make them hard to beat in some situations.

[Doug Dawson]

Doug, your point is well taken. I've never had oil on the wood but dry air is important to reducing the amount of oil needed. A few drops every hour or two is about all I ever need as a hobby guy. You also need a vac attachment for any sander. Buying a compressor for sanding ( and a dryer ) screws up the economics compared to a Mirka type electric so you need to have the large compressor on hand. Like any tool, you have to learn how to use it correctly. Applies both to the sander and the compressor. A slow running compressor with a large tank, good filters, and some way to capture the moisture are critical. You can't go to Home Depot and expect a great result with a compressor. Dave

You need oil _in_the_tool_. It doesn't matter how it got there upstream. I do a lot of automotive work, and I have an elaborate system for super clean/dry air, for painting, finishing, etc. But the tool needs the oil. If it doesn't get it, that tool is gonna die. Inline oilers (or the equivalent) are the way and the truth. And that's the point of contact with a sander and the wood, and there's no way around that.

[Van Huskey]

A good air-powered sander doesn't spit oil. They are standard in most commercial woodshops for good reasons; ergonomics, longevity and productivity. They do take a ridiculous amount of power vs electric ones and Mirka makes a very good sander, but I doubt the electronics will last as long as a minimally maintained Dynabrade at 1/3 the purchase price.

There is no question that for the foreseeable future the cost of electric brushless sanders will far exceed the cost of pneumatic sanders both upfront and running costs but the cost of buying, maintaining and powering the compressors and refrigerated dryers in commercial and industrial settings is where the business case goes wonky in today's world. Using compressed and dried air to spin a sander is incredibly energy inefficient. I can see industrial settings where the power is rectified in a central location and only feedback load control is built into the individual tool reducing the need for the amount of miniaturized electronics onboard the sander. In a lot of settings, you wouldn't even need speed control onboard.

[David Kumm]

The economics are not always clear. I had the compressor and shopping CL and other sources I've accumulated about a dozen sanders of various sizes, orbits, round, square, orbital, inline, etc for less than the price of one new Mirka. Some used, some NOS, and even a couple new. I'll be dust before the energy cost becomes a deal breaker. I'm not advocating but I do like my Dynabrades. Dave

[Warren Lake]

Been happy with Dynabrades as well. Four over 35 years and the last two are two different models one heavier and one maybe composite so I can fling that one around on bullnose type stuff easily. I dont run a full size air line and up my pressure so very little weight hanging off from an air line. Swivel fittings can make lots of air stuff more comfortable. As David said 5 HP 2 stage 80 gallon tank. Id consider that your minimum.

[Peter Kelly]

I’ve only used electric ROS’s, and have someone asking me about air powered ROS’s. I’m guessing some pro shops use these? Can anyone suggest some make/models I should look at?
ThanksEither the 3m Elite Series (https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-us/all-3m-products/~/3M-Elite-Central-Vacuum-Ready-Random-Orbital-Sanders/?N=5002385+3293241164&rt=rud) or the Festool LEX 3 150/3 (https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-us/all-3m-products/~/Festool-Compressed-Air-Eccentric-Sander-LEX-3-150-3/?N=5002385+3291877361&rt=rud). Both sell for around $250 or under.

Per above, you'll need a compressor that can deliver at least 16 CFM at 90psi to run a single sander. Not the most efficient arrangement.

[Bill Dufour]

I understand the cheap HD or Hf use about 50% more air for the same work.
B il lD

[Van Huskey]

The economics are not always clear. I had the compressor and shopping CL and other sources I've accumulated about a dozen sanders of various sizes, orbits, round, square, orbital, inline, etc for less than the price of one new Mirka. Some used, some NOS, and even a couple new. I'll be dust before the energy cost becomes a deal breaker. I'm not advocating but I do like my Dynabrades. Dave


The monetary cost/benefit analysis actually seems to become much more complex and murky for a hobbyist and why I only mentioned commercial and industrial settings. For the hobby guy a large relatively high volume compressor can be a multifuntion power source. It lets one buy high quality but much cheaper sanders, you can use a venturi vacuum system instead of a pump, you can buy a good gun instead of a 4/5 stage HVLP turbine and there are a ton of air tools that save a lot of money over electric especially if you do work other than woodworking. The energy costs can easily be outweighed by all the different things one can do with compressed air.

I really like air sanders, the feel in the hand and the control is amazing. Prior to the introduction of brushless sanders there wasn't really much of a discussion about air vs electric but the Mirka Ceros/Deros and Festool EC sanders which also bring noise and dust reduction to the mix add a lot of fuel for discussion.

[William Hodge]

I used a Dynabrade sander a lot. I have also used electric random orbital sander a lot. The Dynabrade required 15 cfm. The 5 hp 3 phase compressor would heat up, because it only would put out 17 cfm, and any other use in the shop would be more than the compressor could handle. The maintenance of a compressor to run a sander was not worth it.

More important, my Dewalt 5" random orbital sander has better dust collection when hooked to a central vac. I have a central vac in the shop, meaning the vacuum is out side the back door, and it's quiet.

Unfortunately, the electric sanders are disposable, not repairable.

[Alex Zeller]

In the past I used air sanders all the time (for bodywork). One of the things not talked about here is that the air coming out of the sander will blow dust everywhere. While my electric palm sander is bulkier it's easy to connect to the dust collector. I haven't looked at what's on the market now but I would make sure that it has some sort of dust collection capability.

[Robert Engel]

The problem with air-powered sanders is that they require oiling (preferably inline) and there's always an issue of residual oil spitting on the wood, which is bad mojo re finish contamination. I would never dream of using them for woodworking. This is not something you should be thinking about.I've never had an issue and I know a lot of commercial ww'ing shops use them. If they spat oil, then body shops wouldn't use them either.

+1 on what Dave said. I use a 3M sander and very happy. Also like the Cubitron sanding disks a lot. Seem to last forever!

Biggest advantage I see is 1) they sand faster and 2)better dust collection. Yes you need a big boy compressor to handle the cfm.

[Van Huskey]

Unfortunately, the electric sanders are disposable, not repairable.

Cheap ones are, the quality ones like Mirka and Festool are repairable.

[Van Huskey]

2)better dust collection.

Which air sanders are you comparing to electric sanders?

[Kevin Jenness]

"you need oil _in_the_tool_. It doesn't matter how it got there upstream. I do a lot of automotive work, and I have an elaborate system for super clean/dry air, for painting, finishing, etc. But the tool needs the oil. If it doesn't get it, that tool is gonna die. Inline oilers (or the equivalent) are the way and the truth. And that's the point of contact with a sander and the wood, and there's no way around that."

I worked in a shop with 5 or 6 Dynabrade sanders for 14 years. One was there when I started and was still going strong when I left. I don't remember any of them dying in service. All those tools got two drops of oil a day, if that, no inline oiler and no oil contamination on the work. Believe me, our finisher had no qualms about pointing out sanding problems.

That said, I am happy with my Festool EC-125. I don't care to invest in a big compressor and drier and run a 5hp motor to power a sander that only needs a few amps at 110 volts. The dust pickup is better with the Festool, but not a quantum leap (our air sanders were teamed up with Fein vacs). If my budget had been less squeaky I would have gone for a Mirka, they are a very good competitor to an air sander and my old shop has a couple of them now. Still, I doubt the electric units will outlast those Dynabrades.

[Albert Lee]

I have a Festool LEX3. you need a big compressor with a matching airtank if you want to use an air sander... a 7.5hp at least but depends on your usage. when I use my air sander my compressor can happily keep up with the air use. it uses about 300l/min, which is about 10cfm. you need a compressor at least 20cfm (50% duty cycle) if you have a rotary screw compressor then its a different story...

[Warren Lake]

also depends what you are sanding, heavier work usually done first on my stroke sander before the dynabrade

[Matt Day]

Thanks for all the input guys. Looks like we’re talking a $1500-$2000 compressor for a decent 5hp compressor. Sound about right? I love buying used machinery my gut tells me to buy new, for fear of an unmaintained machine or rusted tank. .

[Cary Falk]

Put me in the camp that doesn't understand the appeal of air sanders in a wood shop.
Huge noisy compressor
bulky air hose
noisy sander
expensive air/oil separators

[David Kumm]

Most 1500-2000 compressors of that size run a fairly fast pump- usually from China. The best 5-7 hp compressors under 2500 are used. A Quincy QR 325 or 340 is my first choice. They ran slow and quiet in comparison to most new. They had the best valves and are easy to rebuild. Quincy sells gasket kits and there are videos on youtube showing how to rehab. Throw the valves into some Evaporust ( or a die grinder and while wheel )and with some sandpaper and gaskets you can have a compressor that would cost well over 5K new and still run for the rest of your life. Saylor Beall, Kellogg, and certain Ingersol Rand were good too but not equal to the Quincy. If you need a big compressor and have average rehab skills, the Quincy is an easy way to a great compressor. I have 1000-1200 in a 5 hp 120 gal tank and 2500 in a 25 hp unit that will handle any sand blaster. I bought a rehabbed Kellogg for 750 delivered some years ago. Good stuff is out there. Dave

[Martin Wasner]

Still, I doubt the electric units will outlast those Dynabrades.

They don't.

But. Even replacing a $600 sander once a year, it's still cheaper. If my compressor runs 2080 hours a year, and for what I'm paying for electricity, it would cost me $3700 a year. Plus wear and tear on a $8,000 compressor with a life expectancy of 20k-30k hours.

I like the Dynabrade sanders, but with the same abrasive the Mirka cuts faster and leaves a better scratch.

For a hobbyist, it's not really going to add up, but commercially it's real money at the end of the year.

The Dynabrade is a sweet unit we still use them frequently, but the bulk of our sanding happens with a brushless Mirka. It's cheaper and I feel more productive. I also think the vibration is better with the Mirka.

[Albert Lee]

Thanks for all the input guys. Looks like we’re talking a $1500-$2000 compressor for a decent 5hp compressor. Sound about right? I love buying used machinery my gut tells me to buy new, for fear of an unmaintained machine or rusted tank. .

I highly recommend silenced piston compressor, its quiet and low maintenance, say the likes of Chicago Pneumatics CPRS series, I have one of these and it has been great.

to give you an idea how loud/quiet it is, here is the video I took

https://youtu.be/xMpRpo6GmJ8

my previous compressor was a hydrovane... and yes for Compressor it is better to buy new.

[johnny means]

I've got 15 year old Festool electric sanders that look like they were used as hammers, still going strong. Twenty years in commercial shops using air sanders, I've never seen the oil problem.

[Van Huskey]

I've got 15 year old Festool electric sanders that look like they were used as hammers, still going strong.

And those are brushed, the life expectancy of a brushless sander is much longer.

Obviously, if they are being run in production 8 hours a day no electric will last 15 years one just has to work out the real cost of using air vs electrical, for the hobbyist like me energy costs aren't a big factor and it may give me a good excuse to buy a big compressor but I still prefer brushless electric.

[Kelby Van Patten]

My cost is way different than Martin’s.

I use a single phase 5 HP Quincy compressor. Full load is 28 amps at 240 volts. That’s a 5.6 kW load.
I live in California, where electricity is as expensive as anywhere in the country. I pay 32 cents per kWh. So, running full blast, I pay $1.80/hour to run my compressor for my Dynabrade.

I also have a Festool ETS 125. It has a 1.6 amp motor at 120 volts. That’s a .16 kW load. At 32 cents per kWh, that’s 5 cents per hour.

So, it costs $1.75/hour more for electricity to run the Dynabrade than the Festool. (It will be a MUCH smaller difference for those living in other states where power is cheaper.) On the other hand, the Festool will not last as long as a Dynabrade. The value of that depends on how long they each last, but that means that the cost difference of using the Dynabrade is less than $1.75/hour.

The Festool is a great sander, and I typically use it just because I already have my Festool vacuum near my bench, so it’s easy just to plug the sander in and go. But if I have a long sanding session, the Dynabrade is more comfortable to use. The extra buck an hour or so is not a huge factor for me.

Martin, how did you calculate a cost of $.15/min? That seems high to me, even for a 53 CFM compressor.

[Van Huskey]

The Festool is a great sander, and I typically use it just because I already have my Festool vacuum near my bench, so it’s easy just to plug the sander in and go. But if I have a long sanding session, the Dynabrade is more comfortable to use.

Try out a Festool ETS EC 125/150 or a Mirka Deros, they might well change your mind about comfort.

I completely get the hold air sanders have on people, a few short years ago this wasn't even a discussion. The "old" brushed sanders were less powerful, didn't last as long, had relatively high vibration and were very bulky. Then the PC 390(?) came along, ahead of its time, and ushered in a new age, despite dying an ignominious death as few saw its potential and it was only a fair representation of what they could be. Then the Mirka Ceros came out and boom traction started to be found, it helped Mirka had a significant commercial/industrial presence especially in Europe. Now Festool and 3M have adopted brushless sanders. For the commercial and industrial settings, they offer a lot of promise especially when it is time to replace or put in major portions of infrastructure like large compressors. While I may sound like I am proselytizing I don't mean it to come across that way just trying to point out it is a legitimate cost calculation to be made for business and for hobbyists brushless sanders allow them to have upper end quality in a ROS without the need to have a large compressor and the associated infrastructure and maintenance. For many it is hard to believe an electric ROS can be as good as a pneumatic one, I know it was for me until I owned one.

[Mark Bolton]

The 5 hp 3 phase compressor would heat up, because it only would put out 17 cfm, and any other use in the shop would be more than the compressor could handle. The maintenance of a compressor to run a sander was not worth it.

+1 This is the answer without a doubt.

The economics are in no way shape or form murky. They are clear as crystal. When you pick up an air sander you have in your hand a 250$ sander, attached to many dollars of air lines, which should be attached to a high quality filter (more$$), which should be attached to a refrigerated dryer (more$$) which is then attached to a FIVE HORSEPOWER compressor that, unless its a top brand, is going to struggle to keep up. The maintenance and expense of all of that, regardless of the ancillary uses for a compressor in a wood shop, make air sanders a loser. Hence it being mentioned in this thread and every other dynabrade thread that in the commercial world air sanders are going bye bye because large shops quantify the true cost of manufacturing a CFM of clean dry air.

I mean litterally? You need a 5HP Baldor motor to run a tiny little hand sander?

The worst part for us in the new DC brushless world was the discontinuation of the Ceros. That envelope is nearly exactly that of a dynabrade and has dust collection. Its small, compact, light, super smooth. I can see wanting to have a Dynabrade around for tight spots if you are running the Deros like Martin. I have looked at the surfprep and 3M electric options but cant get my hands physically on either to try though surfprep has a dealer in and area we travel to and if I can try one I will go that route when we add more sanders.

Large commercial shops running dynabrades has simpy been because there has been no viable electric alternative. They all knew, and still know, that those sander are profit hogs. The instant the Ceros and now Deros envelopes hit the market the math is crystal clear and they are moving.

[Mark Bolton]

Martin, how did you calculate a cost of $.15/min? That seems high to me, even for a 53 CFM compressor.

Your cost for running the compressor per minute is far more than just the cost of the electricity it consumes. Its the initial cost of the compressor, life span, maintenance program, repair, replacement, and so on. Your math on the electricity alone is a good reason to put the dynabrade in the drawer and only run it in applications where its the only option. By your math alone the electricity costs for the dynabrade are 36 times the cost of an electric not counting investment, maintenance, and replacement. There is simply not a chance in the world the dynabrade performs 36X better than even a mediocre electric sander.

[Kelby Van Patten]

Thanks, Van. I had a Mirka Ceros before they were discontinued. It died the first weekend I owned it. It was nice, but not superior to the Dynabrade, so I returned it for a refund.

[Kelby Van Patten]

Your cost for running the compressor per minute is far more than just the cost of the electricity it consumes. Its the initial cost of the compressor, life span, maintenance program, repair, replacement, and so on. Your math on the electricity alone is a good reason to put the dynabrade in the drawer and only run it in applications where its the only option. By your math alone the electricity costs for the dynabrade are 36 times the cost of an electric not counting investment, maintenance, and replacement. There is simply not a chance in the world the dynabrade performs 36X better than even a mediocre electric sander.

Mark, as far as including the other costs associated with the compressor, that depends on whether you already own and maintain a compressor for other purposes, which I do. Since I own and maintain it for other purposes anyway, the incremental cost associated with sanding is the electricity.

As for making decisions based solely on cost, all of the ROSs we are discussing -- including the Festools and the Mirkas -- are unnecessary luxuries given that you can buy a DeWalt for $70. But like many tools in our shops, cost isn't the only factor. If you like using the tool and it works for you, and if you choose to spend a little extra to have something you enjoy, then that's fine. My only point is that when you're dipping your toes into the higher end ROSs, if you already own a compressor, the actual dollars that it costs to use the Festool/Mirka and the Dynabrade is really not that much in the scheme of things. In fact, given that the Dynabrade is $180 and the brushless Festool is $400 ($220 more), even assuming my $1.75/hour delta (which is only true in CA), one would have to use the sander for 175 hours before the cost of electricity makes up for the price difference. For most of the people on this forum, that's probably years of woodworking before they even reach the breakeven point, let alone start saving money through the Festool. The dollars might be more significant if you are paying three guys to sand full time. But for hobbyists that are spending more than we need to anyway, if you already own and maintain a large compressor, the electricity is not as big of an issue as some here are suggesting.

[Martin Wasner]

Martin, how did you calculate a cost of $.15/min? That seems high to me, even for a 53 CFM compressor.


Methinks my brain locked up, or autocorrect hosed me and I didn't catch it. I bet I know what I was thinking. A 5hp motor costs me about $.01 per minute. I probably brain farted and went 1hp costs me $.01 to run.


15hp compressor is 11.2kw
I'm paying I think almost .16 per kw/hr.
That should be about $1.80 per hour? or $.03 per minute



A while ago I figured a 20hp motor cost me $2.40/hr to operate, or $.04 per minute.

[Mark Bolton]

Kelby, This will not read the way it should but the simpe fact of the matter is whether you own and maintain the compressor on not has no bearing on the math. The maintenance will go up with additional load, the life of the compressor will be reduced by additonal load. That IS an expense. Generating molecules of compressed air is directly accountable. Its not like you arbitrarily produce 30,000CFM of compressed air monthly and if you dont use the 30,000 they go into some AT&T roll over account to be used "for free" later. Any molecule of compresse air you dont have to manufacture is a direct gain for your business (or your families bank acCount).

This is a trap every single individual falls into when this dynabrade conversation come up (search the archives). Someone working in a large plant or factory shop will say "well we make tons of air anyway so we like our dynabrades". I can guarantee you that is not what the accounting department is saying. Quantifying your cost to make air to feed that sander is directly accountable. You made the first step in that accounting by stating quite clearly that your paying 36X in electric costs alone (forget the rest) to run an air sander as compared to an electric (and not a great electric to boot). So only you in your operation can quantify whether paying 36X (without all the other expenses included) to run that sander either equates to optimized output, better faster sanding, or maybe your just willing to pay 36X because it floats your boat to get to run air tools and its something youve dreamed of your whole life. I have no idea... but at the most rudimentary investigation into the cost of operation youve sumized that its 36X more expensive. A very short excel sheet would frank the differences in operating and performance between buying a DC brushless sander every few years and 36X the cost of operation plus additional compressor replacement and maintenance.

I dont need to do that math because I know for a fact I would never strap a 5HP motor to my backpack with a recip or rotary compressor attached to run a sander that fits in the palm of my hand. It only makes sense when there is no alternative option (the days of old when hand electric sanders were huge, slow, and inefficient). Those times are changing which again is why industry on mass is moving away from manufacturing very expensive molecules of compressed air.

Again you state that "if you already own the compressor the cost of operating is not that high". Your direct operating cost is 36X more, your compressor has a life span, you apply more load, the life span is shorter. Thats an additional cost. This is the math the accounting department is doing.

Your statements about things only being true in CA doesnt really make sense either because while energy costs may be less elsewhere they both go down proportionately. So the 1.75 an hour goes down to whatever the rate is in the boondocks of Louisiana, as does the operating cost of the electric. The lower energy cost will be directly proportionate. As more than likely will be the cost of living, the amount you can charge for work, what you will pay for gasoline, hard wood, soft wood, whatever. The loss of income to power the costly tool will be directly proportionate. Its why Europe is as a rule more "advanced" than us. Its not because they are simply smarter.. its because they pay the actual cost of energy and that actual cost is extremely painful, much more painful than we in the US have ever felt, so they optimize to reduce the pain. Try driving to Canada and filling up a 4 door 4 wheel drive dually diesel daily driver that doesnt have a single scratch in the bed because its a glorified car because the individual just "likes" driving it. Its the same thing. If your wealthy enough... have at it. If your into throwing dollar bills in the fire have at it.

These discussions always try to get blurred by the comments of "for most of the people on this forum" which is understandable. A hobbyist who really just gets a rise out of sanding with an air sander that they always dreamed of as a kid, or rotating their tires with an impact wrench because they always wanted one, has no bearing with regards to the economics of the tool. They run it because they want to regardless of cost. But it has no bearing on the math whether you sand for an hour a week or 120 hours a week. The cost of operation is grossly more and the performance does not match that cost other than in very specific circumstances which, yet again, is why industry on-mass is moving away from producing any molecules of compressed air they dont need to.

[johnny means]

And those are brushed, the life expectancy of a brushless sander is much longer.

Obviously, if they are being run in production 8 hours a day no electric will last 15 years one just has to work out the real cost of using air vs electrical, for the hobbyist like me energy costs aren't a big factor and it may give me a good excuse to buy a big compressor but I still prefer brushless electric.

Any shop running an orbital 8 hours a day is doing something really wrong:eek:

[johnny means]

Mark, as far as including the other costs associated with the compressor, that depends on whether you already own and maintain a compressor for other purposes, which I do. Since I own and maintain it for other purposes anyway, the incremental cost associated with sanding is the electricity.

As for making decisions based solely on cost, all of the ROSs we are discussing -- including the Festools and the Mirkas -- are unnecessary luxuries given that you can buy a DeWalt for $70.

Not once you understand the science of sanding and the economics of ergonomics.

[Van Huskey]

Any shop running an orbital 8 hours a day is doing something really wrong:eek:

A shop running enough doors to have someone doing nothing but finish sanding all day er day is doing something really RIGHT. ;) 'Member production door plants use orbitals for finish sanding too...

[Alex Zeller]

To be fair a larger shop is unlikely to have a piston air compressor. We use rotary compressors which run for years only stopping for routine service. I think they are expected to last 30 to 40 years of continuous use.

[John Sincerbeaux]

I just finished upgrading my air system. Quincy 80 gal 5hp, refrigerated air dryer, Rapidair Max line pipes, Rapidair filter regulators. To date, my biggest air needs were my widebelt sander and spray equipment. I have two Ceros sanders I am happy with. I am in the market for a 3” air rotary buffer.... Really, the only options are air powered buffers/polishers. There are some electric ones but they look huge and impractical.

I seriously doubt Air sanders will ever be replaced in the commercial and industrial sectors. Take a look at the Dynabrade website. There are many many tools for many applications.

[Peter Kelly]

Any shop running an orbital 8 hours a day is doing something really wrong:eek:Any busy solid surface shop will have a few going all day.

Not a real pleasant environment.

[Mark Bolton]

To be fair a larger shop is unlikely to have a piston air compressor. We use rotary compressors which run for years only stopping for routine service. I think they are expected to last 30 to 40 years of continuous use.

And the price per hour when you factor in purchase, maintenance, operating expense, is directly attributable to each and every cfm manufactured. Like Martin, I will guarantee you any large shop will be able to tell you specifically what their cost of manufacturing air is and even with a rotary it's far from cheap or free. Hence large facilities aggressively dealing with leaks and loss because those are buckets of profit flowing directly into the fire.

Our compressor is 50,000 hours. Even having a higher end unit when I need an impact wrench I run an electric unless I need the muscle of the pneumatic. Every drop of air I dont have to make, I dont have to pay to make.

[Mark Bolton]

I just finished upgrading my air system. Quincy 80 gal 5hp, refrigerated air dryer, Rapidair Max line pipes, Rapidair filter regulators. To date, my biggest air needs were my widebelt sander and spray equipment. I have two Ceros sanders I am happy with. I am in the market for a 3” air rotary buffer.... Really, the only options are air powered buffers/polishers. There are some electric ones but they look huge and impractical.

I seriously doubt Air sanders will ever be replaced in the commercial and industrial sectors. Take a look at the Dynabrade website. There are many many tools for many applications.

Without a doubt they will always have their place and still do. But your even seeing large facilities, automobile plants, that use to have endless whips of coil hose hanging down at work stations moving to cordless impacts, and other cordless drivers and tooling to reduce the demands of manufacturing air. The envelopes and battery technologies are getting smaller and smaller and more and more powerful and no different than anything, running on electric is less expensive than air. When we have entire assembly plants populating their roofs with solar panels in an attempt to generate every KWH of energy they consume on-site, an sander or drill that requires the equivalent of a 5-7HP motor to power a tiny tool will be quickly evaluated. Right down to spray technology the demand for air is constantly going down.

[Joe Calhoon]

We ruined a couple 5 hp compressors over the years using air sanders and finally put in a Kaeser with a drier and had a down draft table. That keeps up with them but a few years ago we bought a Festo 150 with the vac and use that for most everything now.
The air sanders are more aggressive but the Festo is a lot quieter, cleaner and cheaper to run. It has been going for 6 or more years now. When it goes will probably buy another.

[Albert Lee]

My cost is way different than Martin’s.

I use a single phase 5 HP Quincy compressor. Full load is 28 amps at 240 volts. That’s a 5.6 kW load.
I live in California, where electricity is as expensive as anywhere in the country. I pay 32 cents per kWh. So, running full blast, I pay $1.80/hour to run my compressor for my Dynabrade.

I also have a Festool ETS 125. It has a 1.6 amp motor at 120 volts. That’s a .16 kW load. At 32 cents per kWh, that’s 5 cents per hour.

So, it costs $1.75/hour more for electricity to run the Dynabrade than the Festool. (It will be a MUCH smaller difference for those living in other states where power is cheaper.) On the other hand, the Festool will not last as long as a Dynabrade. The value of that depends on how long they each last, but that means that the cost difference of using the Dynabrade is less than $1.75/hour.

The Festool is a great sander, and I typically use it just because I already have my Festool vacuum near my bench, so it’s easy just to plug the sander in and go. But if I have a long sanding session, the Dynabrade is more comfortable to use. The extra buck an hour or so is not a huge factor for me.

Martin, how did you calculate a cost of $.15/min? That seems high to me, even for a 53 CFM compressor.

I thought the electricity in USA would be cheaper than anywhere else, after all you have all the nuclear power!! we pay about 20 (19-21 depending on the exchange rate) cents USD per kWh. that is residential power, not industrial...

[Van Huskey]

The average cost per kWh in the US is .12 USD. Only about 20% of our power is from nuclear, almost as much comes from renewable sources now. 75% of France's power is nuclear and their price is 50% more than ours. Indian and China have cheap electricity, places like OZ, Germany, and Denmark have very expensive electricity. Those are the places that should move more quickly to electrical sanders in industry and they are.

[Carl Beckett]

I have both electric and air sanders. Having a compressor is useful for other purposes, so that isnt an issue and I dont track electrical consumption.

For me, as a hobbiest, the benefit of an electric sander is that every now and then I want to sand somewhere that I do not have compressed air. This could be the garage or a project in the house or outside setup of some type. I do have a portable compressor, but it wont keep up with extended sanding session and is a hassle to move around (even my portable is on 220V so I cant move it everywhere).

Electrical outlets are plentiful.

I have eyed a sander upgrade (sanding is still my least favorite thing to do). And wallow back and forth between a nice lightweight air and an electric.

My conclusion is that given where I am with the current tools, I could likely get a performance bump by studying sandpaper types vs sander types. I do notice a difference depending on what sandpaper type I put on.

Just a thought.

[Robert Engel]

Which air sanders are you comparing to electric sanders?
3M compared to PC. I think any air sander is going to be better because compressed air is used for exhaust. Its obvious when the sander is running.

Which, BTW, is where any oil people are concerned about will be.....

[Robert Engel]

Thanks for all the input guys. Looks like we’re talking a $1500-$2000 compressor for a decent 5hp compressor. Sound about right? I love buying used machinery my gut tells me to buy new, for fear of an unmaintained machine or rusted tank. .

I bought an Ingersoll Rand on sale at Northern Tool about 5 years ago for $850.

The street price is around $1000. Check it (https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/ingersoll-rand-80-gallon-5-hp-reciprocating-air-compressor).

[Van Huskey]

3M compared to PC. I think any air sander is going to be better because compressed air is used for exhaust. Its obvious when the sander is running.


That makes sense. The PCs have average dust collection, the Mirka and Festool electrics have SOTA DC with the 3M and Bosch electrics not far behind. The Festool and Mirka will easily match a pneumatic and beat the majority of them.

[Martin Wasner]

Anybody tried the Mirka pneumatic sanders?

My Dynabrades are all well used, but they still sand reasonably well. I might be shocked how much the performance has fallen off if I rebuilt them, or tried a new one. I feel the Deros and Ceros outperforms any of the pneumatics we had though. It'd be interesting to compare fresh to fresh.

[Mark Bolton]

Anybody tried the Mirka pneumatic sanders?

My Dynabrades are all well used, but they still sand reasonably well. I might be shocked how much the performance has fallen off if I rebuilt them, or tried a new one. I feel the Deros and Ceros outperforms any of the pneumatics we had though. It'd be interesting to compare fresh to fresh.


I doubt your going to find much in the way of objective comparisons. It seems most people who default to Dynabrades do so out of habit or jollies. It more often seems to be what people have always used, or what people have always wanted to use (neither scenario involved paying for all the equipment and expense behind the sander). You probably remember the last go around on Dynabrades when the large production shop presented all the options to the sanding crew and the ones running them chose Deros.

I know you like your Deros' but I really will miss the envelope of our Ceros sanders when they die. We are perhaps 4 years in, would have to look back, and am hoping we have a good long while before its something to consider. I can only guess other large shops loved the dynabrade envelope of the Ceros as well and are leaning on their reps to find a solution.

[Van Huskey]

but I really will miss the envelope of our Ceros sanders when they die.

Have you tried the 3M? They have both the 5 and 6 inch with an outboard power supply like the Ceros. I tried a friend's that owns a body shop and it is not quite a Ceros ergonomically but closer than the Deros. You can get them for $500 or less.

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Meant to mention you can also buy the sander without the supply for a touch over $200.

[Mark Bolton]

Have you tried the 3M? They have both the 5 and 6 inch with an outboard power supply like the Ceros. I tried a friend's that owns a body shop and it is not quite a Ceros ergonomically but closer than the Deros. You can get them for $500 or less.

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Van,
I have tried desperately to get my hands on a demo or have a rep. drop by with one that I could peck around with a bit. My local auto body shop has quoted me on them a couple times (painful) but they are on my hotlist for the outboard power supply. I believe surfprep also has a similar option but our local distribution dropped our area on Jan-1-18 so getting one of those in hand is also poof. Mentioned in an earlier reply that I travel occasionally to a location with a surfprep distributor there and have planned to call ahead and hopefully get my hands n one.

I have a sneaking suspicion they all come out of the same place as they all look very similar.

[Kelby Van Patten]

Kelby, This will not read the way it should but the simpe fact of the matter is whether you own and maintain the compressor on not has no bearing on the math. The maintenance will go up with additional load, the life of the compressor will be reduced by additonal load.

That's just not true.

To maintain my warranty on my Quincy, I have to do a maintenance every six months, no matter how much or how little I use it. I don't use it enough that it really needs a maintenance every six months, but I do it anyway to keep up the warranty. I wouldn't do any more maintenance if I put in an extra five hours sanding every week (which is way more than I actually do).

As for the life of the tool, as a hobbyist, I don't use it enough that there's any chance that Quincy will die before I do.

It really is just the cost of electricity. And as my math showed, that's not enough to be a major factor in my decision making.

[Kelby Van Patten]

Not once you understand the science of sanding and the economics of ergonomics.

I don't have to understand any science to know that the DeWalt I used to use was unpleasant!

I definitely agree with the suggestion that there's a lot more than $/kWh at stake.

[Martin Wasner]

I doubt your going to find much in the way of objective comparisons. It seems most people who default to Dynabrades do so out of habit or jollies. It more often seems to be what people have always used, or what people have always wanted to use (neither scenario involved paying for all the equipment and expense behind the sander). You probably remember the last go around on Dynabrades when the large production shop presented all the options to the sanding crew and the ones running them chose Deros.

I know you like your Deros' but I really will miss the envelope of our Ceros sanders when they die. We are perhaps 4 years in, would have to look back, and am hoping we have a good long while before its something to consider. I can only guess other large shops loved the dynabrade envelope of the Ceros as well and are leaning on their reps to find a solution.

Most people become fanboys of whatever they have. I like making money, I don't care what color the tool is as long as it's a good value and it brings the dollars in.

I like the Ceros more than the Deros. If they were still made, I would mod the Ceros with a lighter cord. That was my only complaint with the Ceros, the weight of the cord.

The Deros would be perfect if they took the tiny inverter in the handle and put it on the end of the cord.

The big handle on the Deros isn't noticeable with a vacuum on it. You lose all the maneuverability anyways.

[Mark Bolton]

That's just not true.

To maintain my warranty on my Quincy, I have to do a maintenance every six months, no matter how much or how little I use it. I don't use it enough that it really needs a maintenance every six months, but I do it anyway to keep up the warranty. I wouldn't do any more maintenance if I put in an extra five hours sanding every week (which is way more than I actually do).

As for the life of the tool, as a hobbyist, I don't use it enough that there's any chance that Quincy will die before I do.

It really is just the cost of electricity. And as my math showed, that's not enough to be a major factor in my decision making.

Kelby, whether your Quincy warranty states timed periodic maintenance or not its only common sense that if you run the guts out of your machine, or your are a sunday driver, the maintenance and wear and tear are going to be different (more). In larger operations the machines run hour meters and are maintained just like your car running with an oil change every 3000 miles instead of once a year. Of course you could install your compressor, flip the breaker, and open a 3/4" ball valve and just let the thing run wide open from the day you bought it then fight with them for a warranty replacement because "they said" you only had to do calendar maintenance.

Again, your blurring the lines between hobby use and the actual cost which I completely understand but even at that level it makes no sense. You said you can sand with an electric for $0.05/hr and compressor is $1.75/hr (which is probably high because your quincy will likely cycle so maybe 80% of the hour the compressor would run)? If you pay 36X as much out of your pocket to run a dynabrade it doesnt matter. Your having fun. Thats not what the conversation with regards to the cost and advantages or disadvantages to air sanders is/was about. Its about exactly what Joe and other posted above, they are extremely expensive to run, they are hard on small compressors in anything other than a one or two day a week hobby shop, and they often times even for large operations just dont make economic sense any more which is proven out by your own numbers.

The point of my response to you was that even though you will likely never wear out your Quincy, the simple fact is it is costing you multitudes more to sand, which is fine. Have at it. But stating that your compressor running non stop, and a 5HP motor running to power something the size of a sewing machine, is "no different", is simply untrue. Your direct statement is "So, it costs $1.75/hour more for electricity to run the Dynabrade than the Festool". Thats all well and good in the hobby world.

Now you extrapolate that out to a large shop with 8 people sanding for 8 hours a day and that 1.75 an hour upcharge equates to over $29,000.00 a year out the window. 8 hrs * 1.75/hr * 8 sanders * 5 day week * 52 weeks = $29,120 as compared to your own festool numbers which would equal: 8hrs * $0.05/hr * 8 sanders * 5 day week * 52 weeks = $832.<--- Dude? $832 compared to $29000? And your $1.75 numer is the OVERAGE from the electric, so you would pay almost $30K to stay with the dynabrades. Now you see why industry is moving away from air?

[Van Huskey]

Van,...
I believe surfprep also has a similar option ...

I have a sneaking suspicion they all come out of the same place as they all look very similar.

A while back when planning my pilgrimage to IWF this year I noted 3M was not on the exhibitor list, I went back this morning and saw Surfprep was, so I added it to my list of vendors to hit. Given they sell both electric and air sanders I am curious what there take on the long term market trend will be. I just can't leave wanting one of their sanders, having 2 Mirka, 5 Festool and a couple of other cheap ROS the last thing I need as a hobbyist is another ROS. They do have a little 3 x 4 detail sander so...

[Mark Bolton]

That sander your talking about was the hot finish room sander our distributor was selling a lot of. He was saying that the finishers were amazed at how well they were at de-nib'ing and flattening in the finish area. When we are doing a lot of flat work I remember those conversations often. We move a ceros into the finish loop with 400 on it for scuffing large flat work but the rectangular pad would be handy to have.

[Van Huskey]

Van,
I believe surfprep also has a similar option but our local distribution dropped our area on Jan-1-18 so getting one of those in hand is also poof. Mentioned in an earlier reply that I travel occasionally to a location with a surfprep distributor there and have planned to call ahead and hopefully get my hands n one.


I spent some quality time at the IWF Surfprep booth and... I want! If I didn't already have Mirka and Festool brushless ROS I would be all over Surfprep and may get one of the little 3x4 Ray sanders, that think is awesome.

They have both the external power supply like the Ceros and internal supply versions like the Deros. They are similar but the ergonomics is even better in my hands. I had the same holy poop moment with them in my hands I did with the Ceros the first time. They seem to be using a proprietary design using an outrunner brushless motor. An outrunner has magnets in the rotor and the number of rotor vs stator poles are mismatched, which makes it run smoother and quieter. They also run slower and produce more torque than a conventional brushless design. I wish I had had the Mirka to compare directly, I already prefer it to the Festool EC sanders but I am smitten by the Surfprep.

They also had an interesting dust extractor/vac where on/off is both air and electrically controlled I have seen Dynabrades that turned on and off based on the drop in pressure in the airline and obviously Festool and many others that are tool activated on electrical current but never one that could be tool activated by both.

I ask three of the reps independently how long air sanders had left, all seem to think not long and one of the sanding techs said 10 years max. One mentioned almost every time they get the air sanders in a production facility the company starts moving to all electric shortly after. I wasted far too much of their time on the busy Friday morning but just ran out of time yesterday but glad I circled back to them.

BTW the tech said either call them or request info on the website and they will get you hooked up with someone that can get the sanders in your hands. I couldn't remember where you were from so I couldn't get a specific contact. Their number is 951-245-4200

[Matt Day]

Thanks for the report Van. Any idea on pricing? Website says nothing. I’d be looking at the 5”

[Van Huskey]

Thanks for the report Van. Any idea on pricing? Website says nothing. I’d be looking at the 5”


Thanks for the report Van. Any idea on pricing? Website says nothing. I’d be looking at the 5”

I honestly didn't ask for three reasons. 1 they were busy and I was already talking their ear off. 2 from my previous research they were priced in line (or cheaper) than Mirka so closer to Festool and 3 they offer quite a few different options: 3, 5 and 6 ROS, as well as 3x4 and 3x8, each can be ordered with or without central vac DC options and with the internal power supply or external. Also with multiple orbits but that doesn't impact price. There are online sellers so you can look it up.

If I had the whole brushless sander adventure to do over I would buy SurfPrep. I would use the ones with an external supply. I would buy one external supply, sleeve the cord along with a vac hose and switch them out like a Festool plug-it system. The external supply versions are even more ergonomic (to me) just like the Ceros and the price for the sanders without the power supply is much nicer.

They also have a neat detail/sealer sanding system for the 5" and 3x4" sanders which uses 5mm, 10mm and 1/2" foam pads and though I expect it isn't cheap it was excellent in use.

BTW forgot to mention the vac is HEPA, made in the US and has a 20 year warranty.

Yes, I have a little fan boy going but I was as impressed if not more impressed than the first time I used a Ceros while maybe not as big a paradigm shift it was impressive since I see the Mirka sanders as my current benchmark. One thing I was not able to get a handle on in the booth was how good the dust capture is. It is clear that looking at the hole pattern on the central vac models it was not designed by an engineer modeling the fluid dynamics on a supercomputer like Mirka and especially Festool appear to have been.

I must say I did get a little envy toward the pros, the sanding tech I talked to travels around the country teaching customers employees to sand. I expect many of us both pro and hobbyist could benefit a lot from what is in his head, while I think I know how to sand since it is so "simple" I imagine there is much more I don't know than I do.

[Mark Bolton]

I think the 5" RO is on Wurth/Baer for mid 300's which is dirt cheap. They are my closest option for getting one in-hand but I am honestly beyond that point now. Were just waiting for the right time to pull the pin on a couple of 6" RO's and a couple 5" RO's. I dont have a viable need for a 1/4 sheet sander but they seem super handy.

The 10 year number from the reps doesnt surprise me. I actually finally got a call back directly from 3M industrial abrasives division regarding their DC electric and they said they had dropped the electrics but Im sure they were rebranding.

[David Kumm]

Pretty good recommendation. I'll always defer to Van's take on new stuff. Dave

[Martin Wasner]

For the umpteenth time, I need to try one too. I recently bought two more Deros sanders, with the hose they're almost a grand a piece. I hate sanding with a vacuum, but having the cord built into the hose make it a bit more tolerable.

[Mark Bolton]

umpteenth... now that brings back some memories from my childhood lol.

[Martin Wasner]

umpteenth... now that brings back some memories from my childhood lol.

That's what I'm here for, to drag you back to the horrors of your childhood.

[Van Huskey]

, but having the cord built into the hose make it a bit more tolerable.

I assume you know you can make your own. Use your hose and either the Mirka or Festool cord and use braided hose cover and heat shrink to cover and terminate it. Wirecare.com has everything you need at good prices. The SurfPrep sanders do not have detachable cords, at least the ones they had at the show. I have green and black ones made up for Festool and a Yellow and black one for Mirka. I bought one of the Festool white covered ones on closeout but I like the ones I make better. I didn't pay much more than the Systainer costs so I am happy with it.

[Martin Wasner]

I assume you know you can make your own. Use your hose and either the Mirka or Festool cord and use braided hose cover and heat shrink to cover and terminate it. Wirecare.com has everything you need at good prices. The SurfPrep sanders do not have detachable cords, at least the ones they had at the show. I have green and black ones made up for Festool and a Yellow and black one for Mirka. I bought one of the Festool white covered ones on closeout but I like the ones I make better. I didn't pay much more than the Systainer costs so I am happy with it.

It still wouldn't be as good as the mirka hose. It's like the cord never existed once it dives into the hose. Which make me wonder if the cord is just inside the hose...

[Tom M King]

I expect air sanders will stay around for wet sanding. The only thing I use the air ROS's for is wet sanding gelcoat, and paint because I like to use a water hose outside when I'm doing it.

[Mark Bolton]

I expect air sanders will stay around for wet sanding. The only thing I use the air ROS's for is wet sanding gelcoat, and paint because I like to use a water hose outside when I'm doing it.

I dont think they will disappear completely for a very long time if ever. Thats always the issue with these subjects, people think its got to be one or the other, or all or nothing, black or white. There are places where one will always outperform the other but the technology is coming about where DC electrics can compete with air with regards envelope, power, and speed, where AC couldnt. If you look at most modern assembly lines today that were covered it air drops they are more and more populated with cordless and DC corded.

Maybe the day will come where the sanding station will have a vest for the operator to wear that is interwoven with lithium ion or some other new battery technology that has a cord running down the operators arm with a connector at the wrist to plug into various sanders. No cord, and full mobility.

[Van Huskey]

It still wouldn't be as good as the mirka hose. It's like the cord never existed once it dives into the hose. Which make me wonder if the cord is just inside the hose...

I see the advantage and my dealer has them hooked up to the demo sanders but the thing the sleeve fixes that I had is the propensity of the hose corrugations to catch on things. Keep in mind I use the Festool hoses for track saws, jig saws, routers etc which are admittedly more prone to catching. The white Festool sleeve is rather bulky but the ones I have made up function as well or better than the Mirka hose IME in part due to the fact the Festool hoses them themselves are better than the Mirka ones. Mirka does have an advantage with the coaxial hoses since they come in very long lengths.

Now you have me wondering what is actually going on with the cord inside the hose...

[Van Huskey]

I have a sneaking suspicion they all come out of the same place as they all look very similar.


This got me thinking and after looking at the Surfprep and the 3m (not the pictures below vary between the central vac/ non-vac and 5"/6" and although I couldn't get other pictures to load the 3m and SP are identical save graphics and the bottom moulding when you compare the same sander.



392699392700392701392702


After some searching I found the below sanders which both the sander and the DC supply are identical except for cosmetics. There is even a picture where the DC cord from SP and AirVantage have the exact same white tag on them in the exact same place on the cord. At this point I am 90% sure they came from the same factory in Taiwan. But, I kept poking around...

392703392704392705392706

Then I found this on the Wurth site: http://www.wurthwoodgroup.com/SurfPrep-AirVantage-3-x-4-Sander-P78748.aspx

While although it is one of the air sanders it clearly links SP and Airvantage... now I am 99% sure these are the same sanders.

A little more digging and some emails back and forth and I have a 6" AirVantage ROS with the external supply and a bare 3x4 orbital headed my way for $150 LESS than just the 3x4 and power supply alone from Surfprep. In fact one could get a power supply and 3 6" ROS for just a few dollars more than a single kit from SP.

AirVantantage also makes supply in sander versions like the Deros.

http://www.airvantagetools.com/


It is an experiment and I will follow up when I have time to play with them. If anyone wants the contact info PM me.

[David Kumm]

Van, any idea yet if the internals are the same quality? It could be that different guts are spec'd in the same body. Let us know as I suspect you will do the homework. Dave

[Van Huskey]

Van, any idea yet if the internals are the same quality? It could be that different guts are spec'd in the same body. Let us know as I suspect you will do the homework. Dave

Dave, I doubt I will ever be able to answer that question. They do have the same exploded parts sheet but even if I spring for a Surfprep and tear them both apart (they are designed to be rebuilt so it would be easy) I don't have the experience to compare motors and bearings at that level. Things like SP's "patented" fan system are from pictures exactly like what is in the AirVantage so that is another clue but doesn't address the component quality issue. I did dance around the question of them being the same as the SP sanders but the vendor didn't bite on my thinly veiled query. I suppose the non-answer could be construed either way. Maybe in person, I could have interpreted the body language but it was simply avoided while answering all my other questions.

I was fully prepared to buy the little 3x4 SP whether I needed it or not but I love a bargain because somewhere deep inside I think I am getting over on the "man". I didn't remotely need another brushless 6" ROS (this makes 3) but for the price, I couldn't resist trying it out. Hopefully, they will be here next week so I can pay with them on the weekend but that is up to UPS.

[Matt Day]

Very cool Van. Looking forward to your thoughts.

[Mark Bolton]

Did you buy from Prime? Do you mind giving the numbers for an RO with dust collection and a powersupply? I believe my cost on a 5" and power supply (surfprep) was around 560$

[Van Huskey]

Did you buy from Prime? Do you mind giving the numbers for an RO with dust collection and a powersupply? I believe my cost on a 5" and power supply (surfprep) was around 560$

I did some further snooping that I will explain in a minute, you obviously did some too. I actually bought from the person/entity that sells them on eBay and Amazon. They were very quick to reply to emails and had "all" the sander variations and accessories in stock, he set up the purchase for me through eBay (so I have all the buyer protections, just in case) and the price for any of the 5 or 6" versions with no vac is $299 shipped and the central vac version is $314. Extra ROS sanders without pads are $199. The bare 3x4 sander is ~$240 and he threw in a pad of my choice they have both curved and straight edge in H&L. So my cost for the 6" ROS kit and the bare 3x4 was was ~$555.

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X'Pole/Prime Tool is the actual manufacturer and Prime Supply seems to be the sales and distribution arm.

http://www.prime-tool.com.tw/

http://www.primesupply.com.tw/

I have the optimistic feeling that I am getting the same sanders (but my money is in the wind so that feeling is to be expected). As Dave points out the internals could be different qualities and that leaves a question I can not answer. The only thing I will be able to do is to compare them to my memory of the in-booth use of the SurfPerp sanders and directly compare them to my 6" Deros and ETS 150 EC.

BTW the supply in sander versions like the Deros run about $350 and also looks identical to the SP sanders. I went with the external power supply versions because I always preferred the Ceros ergonomics (I got my Deros in the recall program) and it allowed me to get both sanders and one supply.

[Ken Grant]

I can't wait to see how this works out for you. I have been waiting to buy one of these new dc electric sanders for a while now. I wonder why the more common consumer type brands (bosch, dewalt, etc) haven't come out with something like this yet?

[Van Huskey]

I can't wait to see how this works out for you. I have been waiting to buy one of these new dc electric sanders for a while now. I wonder why the more common consumer type brands (bosch, dewalt, etc) haven't come out with something like this yet?

Oddly enough a more consumer-focused brand did come out with one first. The Porter Cable 390k was a low profile brushless 5" ROS.

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It simply never got traction and was discontinued a case of PC being ahead of its time. I expect given Festool's move to offering their EC versions that Bosch won't be too far behind since they use brushless (EC in Euro nomenclature) motors in many of their cordless tools. If/when Bosch does I expect they will have a performance/price ratio that will entice a lot of fence sitters.

[Mark Bolton]

Didn't really do any snooping but have had a few surf prep options in my cart in my wurth account but never pulled the pin.

Are you saying a 5" RO with s power supply and cord is 314? I think my 560 number is the sander with pad, power supply but likely doesnt include a cord. I think a 12' cord is like 50 bucks.

[Van Huskey]

Didn't really do any snooping but have had a few surf prep options in my cart in my wurth account but never pulled the pin.

Are you saying a 5" RO with s power supply and cord is 314? I think my 560 number is the sander with pad, power supply but likely doesnt include a cord. I think a 12' cord is like 50 bucks.

Yes, the $314 is the pad, sander, DC cord (I assume it is the 12' cord, they make a 24') the power supply, the AC cord and includes shipping. The prices are all the same for 5 or 6", 3/32 or 3/16 orbit, H&L or PSA, the central vac versions are $15 more vs the non-vac which is $299.

After I finalized my offer I did find that they make 21 hole or so pads which they call a screen pad, I assume that is for use with mesh abrasives and since I use mainly Abranet once I am comfortable with the quality of the sanders I will likely get the higher hole pads for both of the sanders.

[Van Huskey]

I received the sanders today but only had a couple of minutes with them before I had to catch a flight. I will be out of town a couple of days but will get pictures and first impressions up when I get back. I was able to hook both of them up and run them quickly, I am impressed, as far as I can tell they are indeed identical to the SurfPrep sanders and I feel confident that XPole is the white label manufacturer. I downloaded the Surfprep manuals for their sanders and they are exactly the same. The only difference is the SurfPrep and Airvantage names and the SP manual has additional stock numbers for parts, everything else is identical.

The sanders feel perfect in my hands and have near zero vibration maybe even a tad better than the Mirka but I have to compare them at the same time to tell. The little 3x4 sander has me all kinds of excited. As a note, both sanders came with 12' DC cords when I actually expected the "bare" 3x4 sander to be sans DC cord.

Hopefully, they will continue to impress me, as long as they do I think they are a steal (compared to the market) for the price.

[Warren Lake]

I think the Air Vantage stuff are Ex Dynabrade guys, if I remember correctly a friend in LA was a friend of the owner. bit of a while back. I dont like stuff hanging off my tools, still like the dynabrade with the tiny air line then up my pressure to make up for it. Radius work nothing could touch it light and the air line has no weight you can fling it around like its just a bare tool. Big gain from putting on a swivel air fitting.

[Martin Wasner]

Big gain from putting on a swivel air fitting.

Amazing how different people achieve the same goal.

I hate those swivel fittings. On anything. I remove them pretty quickly if a tool comes with one.

[Warren Lake]

depends on the tool first one was on a roofing nailer next on a framing nailer both easier to use. My dynbrades have small air lines outside diameter is likely 5/16 stuff from the pneumatics industry I dont have the swivels on the air sanders at the moment but other stuff, Lots of the times in finishing the hose is in my left hand and the swivels make that a lot more comfortable with the air line bending at the spray gun. I can see it being a disadvantage at times as well reaching over things, likely times I have had the air line in my left hand as well while sanding not wanting it to drag. Quite a few times i had it dropped from the ceiling.

[Warren Lake]

Martin here is the last incarnation on the dynabrades. The yellow line is super soft and floppy and I didnt really like it. The blue line I use on die grinders and other things it has almost zero weight but too much memory for some things its fine just shooting straight back. I run my compressor over its normal shut off point so what I lose in size of the line is made up in higher pressure. I cant remember weather I liked the swivel fitting, at first I thought I didnt as I had taken it off but too long to remember, do remember I helped a carpenter and took it off the sander to put on the framing nailer. Swivel fitting shines on those. Have a Hitachi and its a pretty big clunky tool swivel makes it easier to use.


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