Which Biscuit/Plate Joiner?

[tony roth]

I would be most appreciative of any reccomendations for the above. While in a different league from one another in terms of price, I have read positive things regarding the porter/cable and the lamello top 20 (i think its called). i'd prefer to save the money and purchase the p&c unless the lamello really is better. also willing to consider other brands. thanks much, tony.

[Todd Franks]

My opinion might be different if I used a biscuit jointer more often, but here it goes. When I was shopping for a biscuit jointer, I narrowed it down to the PC and Dewalt. I didn't consider the Lamello because of the price delta. I ended up choosing the PC because of the face frame biscuit capability. You can use FF biscuits on stock as narrow as 1-1/2" and about 50% of my biscuit jointer use is with FF biscuits. As my woodworking skills have improved I find myself using the biscuit jointer less and less. I no longer use it for edge gluing boards. It gets the most use when assembling face frames and attaching them to the carcass. A lot of folks recommend pocket screws for FF assembly but I'm still happy with FF biscuits. I occasionally use it to assemble plywood carcasses when I'm too lazy to use dadoes. The only negative I can think of is the fence depth scale is difficult to read. There is too much distance between the arrow and the graduations to judge an accurate reading. I always have to do a test cut and adjust before the real thing. Even if the Lamello was better in this regard, I couldn't justify the extra cost in my own mind, based upon the infrequent use and my hobbyist status. The dust chute on my PC is round and can be connected to my shop vac which is important to me. Not sure what other manufacturers have this feature. I'm sure the Lamello is an excellent product, but for me, I'm still satisfied with my choice to buy the PC. Just one man's opinion, hope it helps.

-Todd

[Steve Cox]

I've used both and I can't see where the Lamello is that much better than the PC and the PC is definitely more versatile than the Lamello. The PC will cut FF sized slots which no one else will do (that I know of) and they can be very useful. There is also a difference in the fence in the way that angled slots are cut and the PC has the edge here. Given the price difference it was a no-brainer for me. I bought the PC.

[CPeter James]

The PC 557 TYPE 3 is the best of the medium priced units. Good fence, good accuracy and a two handed grip that uses one hand to hold the tool onto the workpiece and one hand to slide the cutter in. A definite plus.

CPeter

[Tom Horton]

I bought a Ryobi "el cheapo" to use in my shop a couple of years ago, for less than $100, and have made quite a few cabinets. The cutters can be adjusted for biscuit sizes from #20 down to #00. I only bought the cheap one because that was all I could justify spending at the time. It has paid for itself many times over. It also has a round dust bag connection, which I can connect my shop vac to, using the small round nozzle attachment. I suppose it truly is a matter of how much you can justify spending on a tool, before you actually buy it. In my case, I was cheap. But it has been well worth it.

Tom

[Vaughn McMillan]

I'll toss in a vote for the DeWalt DW682...I liked the PC, and would possibly find the smaller biscuit capability useful, but it was just enough more money that I couldn't justify it for my meager use. The DW has worked very well the times I've used it, and it came with an adaptor to convert the square dust chute (for the bag) to a round one (for the shop vac, which is the way I use it). As I recall from looking in the store, I also liked the depth adjustment mechanism and scale markings on the DW a bit more than the PC. (Taken with the grain of salt that I've not used the PC.)

Just another couple o' pennies worth...exactly that.

- Vaughn

[Keel McDonald]

I currently own the DeWalt. Haven't had any trouble with it. The concept behind it is simple. You just have to be sure that the fence on the BJ is square to the tool, and parallel to the blade.

[Chris Barton]

I think they are both very good tools and I have the PC myself but, I find that I use my Kreg pocket screw system more often and the plate joiner very rarely now.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I bought the PC and have been happy with it.

[Michael Fross]

Hello Tony,

I did a similar evaluation about a year ago and decided on the PC. However, I found a reconditioned DeWalt on Amazon and, since it didn't seem like a tool that would be running constantly (and I've had great luck with factory reconditioned tools) I went with it.

I've used it on several pojects and have been very happy. The power seems to be adequate (although I believe it is less than the PC) and the fence is solid and easy to use. I also like the biscuit size adjuster on the DeWalt.

Overall I'm quite happy. Either tool would work make you happy. I'd probably still go with the PC for the same cost, but the DeWalt is great.

In my experience, finding reconditioned tools for those "every once in a while I need it" situations is a great alternative and you can save a few $$. Factory reconditioned tools come with the full manufactures warrentee.

Regards and best luck.

Michael

[Mark Patoka]

I haven't tried the other brands but went with the PC mostly because of the FF size capability, which has come in handy for me.

[Kent Cori]

I too bought a Ryobi and it has been okay considering what I paid for it. It cuts basic biscuit slots fine but the chip extraction is awful. I definitely got what I paid for. I bought it in my early woodworking days. Since then, I've learned like most Creekers to buy the best tool I can afford. However, I temper that with some common sense. I don't buy tools that cost twice as much as the next best option yet offer only a modest improvements in performance, durability and features.

In that vein, I'd buy the PC if I had it to do all over again. I think I would use it more if I had a better quality tool. I've seen the PC and it certainly seems like an excellent choice.

[Anthony Anderson]

I bought the P-C about three years ago, and it has worked great. I liked the FF capability, and the package of 1,000 biscuits that Amazon packaged with it. I bought it with the 1K biscuits for $189 three years ago. I just checked and they are still the same price with the biscuits. I could not justify the price difference of the Lamello. I am very happy with the P-C. Bill

[Lou Morrissette]

Tony,

I've had my PC for three years now and love it. The FF feature is a real plus.

Lou

[Steve Beadle]

I bought the PC a couple years ago, and not only because that was the one I wanted. I just stumbled into a double discount deal at a woodworking show and paid only $155 after a rebate and a discount. I like the idea of being able to use the FF biscuits, but haven't actually used them yet. Like others, I am starting to look for more acceptable applications for pocket holes where I would probably have used biscuit joinery ordinarily. The PC is a good tool, and I especially like the ability to hook up my ShopVac to the dust port and have it work very effectively!

[Chris Padilla]

PC and FF...works here. :) Can we throw out any more double-letter acronyms?? ;)

[tony roth]

thx everyone for the very useful feedback. best, tony.

[Jim Dannels]

After glueing up a box last saturday night, when I knew better than to do so when tired. I was disgusted with my doweling jig.
The box was out of square and when I tried to prang it back all 4 joints blew out. So I went out and got a new Dewalt and material to start over.
So far I like it!

[Steve Wargo]

I just purchased the Lamello Classic about 3 weeks ago and can attest that it is much more accurate and produces a far cleaner cut than the Dewalt or the PC. I've used the Dewalt, Portercable and a craftsman and decided that I hadn't purchased a tool in a while and wanted to splurge. The $375 for the Lamello is certainly worth it. Even though I don't use biscuits for anything more than case miters I'm glad I purchased it. The slot is perfect. There is now residual material hanging off the end of the cut like the Porter Cable produces, It is more quiet than the other two, and is built like a tank. If I was on a budget I'd go with the PC, but having used one for a long time I'm glad I spent a little extra.

[John Renzetti]

I'm with STeve on the Lamello. I got a Top 20 when a few years ago right after it replaced the Top 20. Fine adjustment, balance, no vibration. Lamello has a whole system of biscuits. It can also take those small biscuits with a different blade. Unfortunately it also costs a lot more than the others mentioned. For me, if cost is a concern spend a bit more and get the Lamello Classic. A lot of the same features as the Top 20 but without the price tag.
Besides, Tony, with that Knapp saw/shaper in the shop you have a certain standard to uphold. :)
talk to you later, and have a Happy Thanksgiving.
take care,
John

[Tom Hamilton]

Another recommendation for the PC, especially in the package from Amazon with the 1000 biscuits.

I've had mine 4 years or so, occasional use and without problems. Test cuts are important to guarantee alignment; I made a reminder jig so I could remember which side up and which side down on cabinets. Also, be sure to securly clamp the work even for one cut, lest it be thrown across the room or into your body parts. DAMHIKT :eek:

Don't think you will be disappointed.

Happy Thanksgiving, Tom

[Steve Rowe]

I also agree with Steve on the Lamello. The Lamello has much quieter and perfect cuts. I have a Classic that is about half the price of the TOP20. Previously, I had the Dewalt. I liked the fence system on the Dewalt but the blade apparently was not parallel to the fence. One other annoying thing on the Dewalt was a tab right in the center of the dust collection slot - working in some materials guaranteed a clog even with a vacuum hooked up. They probably did this to keep someone from sticking their finger in it while the machine was on. I suppose you could actually injure yourself on a plate joiner.
Steve

[John Miliunas]

A few months ago, a good friend of mine upgraded to a Lamello Classic and just can't say enough good about it. Here's the clincher, though: Previous to the Lamello, he studied and tried a whole boatload of different brands and models, ultimately deciding on the Makita! :) (Now there's a biscuit jointer name you don't see too often!) Anyhow, this guy is pretty anal, if you will, in regards to the fit, finish and performance of his tools. He found that, other than the Lamello line, the Makita was the cat's meow. When he was finally in a position to upgrade he went with the Lamello. BUT, the real twist in this little story is, I ended up buying his used Makita!!!:D I had previously been using a lower level Freud and, it had gotten to the point that I'd find different methods of joinery before using it. Along with the Makita, he also gave me another tip: Ditch those worthless biscuits you buy at the big box stores and order some Lamello biscuits! Much, much more consistent. Well, I did and, I tried some of the biscuits with my old Freud. Even there, I noticed a bit of improvement. Once I got the Makita, my faith in biscuit joiners was restored!!!:D If/when I ever have the opportunity to upgrade over the Mak, it will be to a Lamello. Until then, it's the Makita w/Lamello biscuits!:) :cool:

[Dale Thompson]

Tony,
My DeWalt 682 has been a great machine for me. Is is accurate and very versatile. It will clog up with chips if you are cutting slots quickly but hook it up to a shop vac and it operates virtually chip and dust free. It's an EXCELLENT machine. :) :)

With that said, my 682 has been gathering a LOT of dust since I got my Kreig Pocket Hole system for about $120. The neat part is: No 4' pipe clamps and stuff giving me black eyes and bruised shins. :mad: The operation is simple: Drill the holes with the supplied step drill, apply glue to the joint, clamp the joint(most of the time you can use the supplied clamp), insert and tighten the screws, wipe off any excess glue, remove the clamp and move on to your next operation. ;) :cool:

Some folks object to the elliptical holes left by the step drill. I think that they are cool and are indicative of "professional" artisanship. (Imagine ME being put into that category :eek: ). If they are objectionable and readibly visible, buy or turn a 3/8" dowel of the same wood. Clip it at a 45 deg. angle, insert it (glued)into the hole, and trim off the excess. I do that two different ways: I either trim it off with one of those flexible Japanese saws with a zero rake on one side or I set my laminate trimmer to a 0- setting with a box joint cutter and "butcher" the excess off to the point where a light sanding gives me the "classy" plug that I like. ;) To each his own. :)

Mine is only a single voice crying the wilderness. :o Don't EVER listen to ME! :D

Dale T.

[Dale Thompson]

[QUOTE=John Miliunas] a good friend of mine upgraded to a Lamello

Spring,
Two comments:
- I can't imaging that you have ANY friends - let alone GOOD ones! ;)
- From a Norwegian standpoint, Lamello is an Italian swear word for "Jello"! :confused:

Dale T.

[John Miliunas]

If they are objectionable and readibly visible, buy or turn a 3/8" dowel of the same wood. Clip it at a 45 deg. angle, insert it (glued)into the hole, and trim off the excess. I do that two different ways: I either trim it off with one of those flexible Japanese saws with a zero rake on one side or I set my laminate trimmer to a 0- setting with a box joint cutter and "butcher" the excess off to the point where a light sanding gives me the "classy" plug that I like. ;) To each his own. :)



"Laminate trimmer"??? "Japanese saw"???? Sheeesh...And all this time you've been telling me you're so poor, you just chew the ends off!:D :)

[John Miliunas]

[quote=John Miliunas] a good friend of mine upgraded to a Lamello

Spring,
Two comments:
- I can't imaging that you have ANY friends - let alone GOOD ones! ;)
Dale T.

Fine. So I used to have a friend before my dog died! :o Let's just call this guy an "acquaintence" then. Sheeeesh...The guy's always got to get technical about such little things!:rolleyes: :) :cool:

[Jim Bell]

I like my PC just fine. It"s easy to use and I"ll probably never have to buyu another. That Kreg jig has limited my needs for a biscuit joiner. However thwere are those times when bothing else will do.
Jim

[Dale Thompson]

[QUOTE=John Miliunas "all this time you've been telling me you're so poor, you just chew the ends off![/QUOTE]

Spring,
NOW you are making disparaging remarks about my appearance by referring to my "buck teeth". :mad: They are NORMALLY used in the place of a scraper or chisel and DO come in handy! ;)

If I wanted to be mean like you, I could make a comment about your phoney mustache! But - Would I EVER do that? NEVER!! :) :D I'm just a wonderful human being! :eek:

What is this "Moderator" thing? :confused: EGADS!!! Is SMC fishing for the "bottom feeders" THAT close to the bottom of the barrel?? :confused: If I am forced to call you, "SIR", I'm going to sell ALL of my tools (a dull and rusty 1/16" drill bit) and find a forum on septic tank pumping! :D :cool:

Dale T.

[Jerry Olexa]

I have the PC for about 2 years and love it...Performs well

[Bill Spievak]

I agree with John, the Mak is a great tool and at a very reasonable price. I'm on my second one, the first "jumped" off the ladder and fell 3 stories to concretehttp://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/icons/icon8.gif. I was using it to index some victorian trim on an old home. The Lamello stays in the shop. I have to agree that the Lamello biscuits are better that others I've tried.

[Ben Abate]

I also agree with John, I purchase the Lamello Classic last yr and have no regrets. I usually don't use a biscut jointer but, when I do, I hated to use the Freud that I had purchase yrs. ago. So at one of the shows I purchase one from Select Machinery from N.Y. What a difference; It starts nice cuts nice and you can control it with one hand. The other thing I liked about it is I purchased the aux. hose and hook it up to the Festool vac. It is so clean I actually don't mind using it. So my vote is the Lamello, no matter if you choose the Classic or the Top 20.

[Dev Emch]

Several years ago when the PC 555 (was it?) did not have the angle dexterity the current PC has, one of the woodworking magazines came out with one of "THOSE" darn reviews. I was young and I believed what I read. They gave the Dewalt the editor's choice and I pounced on the Dewalt.

Its been so so. After going pro, I had a chance to use a Lamello. Holly Cow! Now I know why Norm loves his! ITs far superior.

I use biscuits for a few strategic joints in my own cabinet design around the kick space area. So its not a pressing issue right now. But when I get around to it, the Dewalt will be ebayed and a Lamello is taking its place.

Incidently, the Lamello is a Festool in wolf's clothing. Festool owns the rotor armature winding machines in this industry due to the volume of motors they make. Years ago, they designed the Lamello and Lamello actually made some of the castings. The design was sold to Lamello and now Lamello has a cross manufacturing contract with Festool to have the Lamello rotors and possibly the stators wound by Festool. Nice tidbit of info to pass on.

[Chad Pater]

Along with the Makita, he also gave me another tip: Ditch those worthless biscuits you buy at the big box stores and order some Lamello biscuits! Much, much more consistent. Well, I did and, I tried some of the biscuits with my old Freud. Even there, I noticed a bit of improvement.

I guess I'm not sure what this means. Do people have trouble with biscuits not fitting in the slot?!? This thread also mentioned "cleaner cut" with some models, I'm mainly concerned about accurate slot placement (ie good fence).
The slot (or biscuits for that matter) isn't visible so could somebody explain the advantage of these Lamello biscuits or "cleaner slots"? Maybe I'm missing something (wouldn't be the first time:) )

[John Miliunas]

I guess I'm not sure what this means. Do people have trouble with biscuits not fitting in the slot?!? This thread also mentioned "cleaner cut" with some models, I'm mainly concerned about accurate slot placement (ie good fence).
The slot (or biscuits for that matter) isn't visible so could somebody explain the advantage of these Lamello biscuits or "cleaner slots"? Maybe I'm missing something (wouldn't be the first time:) )

Chad, in my case with my original Freud, the sloppy fit was, I believe, due to both, the jointer and biscuits. The biscuits slipped into the slot very loosely, which ultimately made joining two surfaces evenly was a tedious task, at best. When I tried the Lamello biscuits with the old Freud, I found the fit to be just a tad tighter, though still kind of on the sloppy side. Again, I think this was largely due to the Freud itself. When I did the same process with my "new" Makita, I encountered a totally different feel and experience. The biscuits went solidly into the slots and lining everything up was more akin to tight-fitting dowels!:) My first mini-project with it was a wide-body picture frame. I'm not kidding that, after doing the slots with the Mak and Lamello biscuits, the joint match was literally effortless! I think I started the joint "cleanup" with 220 grit and very lightly, at that. The seams were beautiful.:)

I can't say for certain regarding the "cleaner slots", though for me and compared to my old unit, it meant less slop in the slots and, especially on the "exit" side of the slot, I no longer encounter the stray threads of wood, which were not getting thoroughly chopped off. I used to follow up each slot with a razor knife or similar, to be sure those bits and pieces didn't end up between the two pieces being joined. Oh, and the vacuum ability with the Makita is nothing less than spectacular, as well!:) :cool:

[Frank Pellow]

I don't have a biscuit joiner and, instead, I use dowels drilling holes for them the old fashioned way. But Festool is about to release a somewhat differt joining technology and I will probably bite. The following link has info (in German) on the technology and the product: http://www.festool.de/artikel/artikel_weiterleiten.cfm?id=5146&CFID=1051098&CFTOKEN=23b545aa36496094-F7021B66-FC7C-48D3-AC322DE62D123395

[John Miliunas]

I don't have a biscuit joiner and, instead, I use dowels drilling holes for them the old fashioned way. But Festool is about to release a somewhat differt joining technology and I will probably bite. The following link has info (in German) on the technology and the product: http://www.festool.de/artikel/artikel_weiterleiten.cfm?id=5146&CFID=1051098&CFTOKEN=23b545aa36496094-F7021B66-FC7C-48D3-AC322DE62D123395

Ahhhh....Loose tenons! That's pretty interesting, Frank. For that, I've been pretty happy with my Beadlock setup, though the Fes looks like it may be easier. Cool!:) :cool:

[John Shuk]

Now some lessons in German to go with the link would be nice Frank!

[Chad Pater]

Chad, in my case with my original Freud, the sloppy fit was, I believe, due to both, the jointer and biscuits. The biscuits slipped into the slot very loosely, which ultimately made joining two surfaces evenly was a tedious task, at best. When I tried the Lamello biscuits with the old Freud, I found the fit to be just a tad tighter, though still kind of on the sloppy side. Again, I think this was largely due to the Freud itself. When I did the same process with my "new" Makita, I encountered a totally different feel and experience. The biscuits went solidly into the slots and lining everything up was more akin to tight-fitting dowels!:) My first mini-project with it was a wide-body picture frame. I'm not kidding that, after doing the slots with the Mak and Lamello biscuits, the joint match was literally effortless! I think I started the joint "cleanup" with 220 grit and very lightly, at that. The seams were beautiful.:) :

OK i see John. I forgot to mention I have a PC. I bought it about a year and a half ago and got the free 1000 biscuits, all online. I'm very happy with it and the PC biscuits that came with it work well. Incidently I finally got some of the "ff" biscuits just this Wednesday and plan on using some this afternoon. This was one of the factors that lead me to the PC.

Chad

[Philip Glover]

I have a Lamello Classic that I have had for two years. I was very close to buying the Top 20, but was in the market for some other things as well, so I bought the Classic. I have used it for about 2,000 to 2,500 biscuits. It is an excellent tool all around.

I used a PC on about 200 biscuits and I didn't care for it. The PC is less refined than Lamello to put it simply. It was not something that I looked forward to using. I know three preple that have owned PC's that ended up selling them to buy Lamellos. They all wish they had just cut to the chase and started with the Top 20 or Classic.

That's my two cents.

Regards,
Phil Glover

[Dev Emch]

Frank...

Just remember that every joining system has *ITS* advantages but one system as them *ALL*.

Thanks for this Festool link and its resulting PDF file. I just read this and I am impressed. According to the link, this unit goes on sale this January. Now I dont know if Festool USA will be handling this or not this January so it may be time to get the old relatives up and adam from the beer gardens. They need to do a favor for us every once in a while.

Right now, I use biscuits to align joints more than to strengthen them. This system clearly has some advantages going for it. Its made the short list.

Thanks

[Frank Pellow]

Now some lessons in German to go with the link would be nice Frank!
This link gives a translated version: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.schreinerblog.de/2005/11/16/181/&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2B%2522Das%2BDOMINO%2BVerbindungssys tem%2522%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG%26as_qdr%3Dall

[Dev Emch]

Frank, a translated link? Where is the fun in that:D.

[Dale Thompson]

you may be forced to buy "cheap" biscuits at quantity discounts. :o I have three jars: One is labeled, "Loose". Another is labeled, "Medium" and the third is labeled, "Tight".

I cut a "typical" slot and test fit each one to see which jar they should occupy. The "Loose" are used only where added joint strength is a factor. The "Medium" are used for typical solid wood joints. The "Tight" are used where I want a well-aligned joint with minimal sanding such as on plywood. Some of the biscuits that I can afford are just too "tight". :( I usually just put them in my overflowing "scrap" barrel. :) The good part is, they don't take up as much room as a dresser, Grandfather clock or China cabinet. ;) :)

Dale T.

[Brian Jarnell]

Now some lessons in German to go with the link would be nice Frank!
I just right clicked and used the translate to English,first time I have done that,very handy.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I have the DW and love it!!

[Brian Jarnell]

This may be of some interest.
It's a Elu biscuit jointer,just lift handle(motor) and one has the slot.
Elu was Swiss http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/brian1520/0000.jpguntil taken over by De Walt.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/brian1520/0002.jpg

[Dale Thompson]

Brian,
The stuff in your scrapbox looks better than the "masterpieces" that I used to give to my friends and relatives for birthdays, anniversaries, graduations and weddings. :( I was always getting complaints as to stain, wood choice, fit, form, finish, usefulness and even, "What IS it"?? :confused:

With my eyesight, judgement, coordination, memory and skills fading, I now only make presents for the deceased at funerals. I have yet to receive a complaint! :) :D :cool: POCKET HOLES RULE!! ;)

Dale T.














ding

[Brian Jarnell]

Ha ha,not quite got to that stage yet,still seem to be able to get them to pay.
What I would say though,is I would like to get rid of that scrap,but always think I am going to find a use for it and it's always the wrong size.;)