Speedy 400 Ceramic tube replacement/refurb

[Bryce Mccloud]

Hi there laser community.

I know a lot of you have a great deal of experience with the various options out there and have been down these roads before me. Hoping to get a little advice.

What options you have found to replace/repair a Trotec ceramic laser tube? Mine's has a 120watt tube which is currently firing at about 38 watts.

I've been talking with my salesman and Trotec support which both are very responsive and great to deal with. Thanks to both of them!

We are still tracking down a few possibilities that might be the culprit...but more and more it's looking like its the tube. So I'm doing my research on viable paths forward.

The factory is quoting about $4200 for a new tube these days plus install.
not sure if there are any other reputable options. A few years ago I figured out that I could find lenses from other suppliers for quite a bit less than the factory price. All the tube threads I've read all seem to be about non ceramic tubes.

For reference - I've had my speedy 400 for 5 years. We replaced a tube at about one year under warranty.

Thanks for you help.
Bryce

[Kev Williams]

You might try Laser-Tech on ebay, search "CO2 Laser Evaluation And Testing", I've heard good things about him/them, not sure if he does the ceramics or not, hopefully, as his prices are quite reasonable compared to factory--

I know a few others here know of other options, hopefully they'll chime in soon-

[Keith Outten]

My ceramic tube has just failed as well, I am down to about 18 watts from 80.

[Scott Shepherd]

My ceramic tube has just failed as well, I am down to about 18 watts from 80.

That's not too bad, is it, Keith? What's that, 8-9 years old now?

[Kev Williams]

I thought I'd lost the 14 < make that 12 year old Synrad in the GCC yesterday, Cermarked one of my big ski lift panels, and the last to engrave, four 1/2" high words, washed off. All else okay.

So I re-engraved. It washed off...

So I re-scrubbed with alky and scrubbing bubbles, and tried EnduraMark. It washed off.

uh oh...

I pulled and wiped the 3 mirrors, which I'd just cleaned the day before so they weren't too bad. I also gave the bottom of the lens a Qtip wipe. Then I upped the res from 500 to 600, lowered the speed from 15 to 12, went back to Cermark-

-It washed off...

Told the wife I thought the tube might need to go in for a refurbish. Went back into the garage, and --finally-- removed the lens...

-- and on top of the lens was some goo that used to be a fly or earwig or ant or some other bug (which are out in full force right now)...

This is my 3rd 'bug incident' with lasers, you'd think I'd learn to pull the lens FIRST by now! ;)

-- laser works just fine :D

[Gary Hair]

It's coming up on it's 12th birthday next month!


I thought I'd lost the 14 year old Synrad in the GCC yesterday, Cermarked one of my big ski lift panels, and the last to engrave, four 1/2" high words, washed off. All else okay.

So I re-engraved. It washed off...

So I re-scrubbed with alky and scrubbing bubbles, and tried EnduraMark. It washed off.

uh oh...

I pulled and wiped the 3 mirrors, which I'd just cleaned the day before so they weren't too bad. I also gave the bottom of the lens a Qtip wipe. Then I upped the res from 500 to 600, lowered the speed from 15 to 12, went back to Cermark-

-It washed off...

Told the wife I thought the tube might need to go in for a refurbish. Went back into the garage, and --finally-- removed the lens...

-- and on top of the lens was some goo that used to be a fly or earwig or ant or some other bug (which are out in full force right now)...

This is my 3rd 'bug incident' with lasers, you'd think I'd learn to pull the lens FIRST by now! ;)

-- laser works just fine :D

[Kev Williams]

my 900 is 14 years old, getting too old to keep track of it all! :D

[Scott Shepherd]

The answer that came back on the Ceramic core is they are sealed and don't get regassed. Failures are electronic if I read the post correctly. Just thought I'd update it here for the record.

[Mike Null]

That is my understanding as well. It might be worth a call to PhotoVac or Evergreen to see if they have any info.

[Keith Outten]

That's not too bad, is it, Keith? What's that, 8-9 years old now?

My invoice was issued on 1-19-2012 so my laser is about six and a half years old.

[Doug Fisher]

Does anyone know if Trotec is now using only ceramic tubes in their Speedy 300-400 series? If performance is the same, it would be nice to be able to buy a Speedy with a laser that could be recharged (still dreaming of the big laser upgrade!).

[Paul Phillips]

I would second the recommendation for Evergreen Laser. I would at least call them and ask if they can take a look at it. The only downside is that your'e going to have to wait for the repair vs. immediate replacement through Trotec but if you can save a couple thousand it may be worth it. Here's a link to my experience with them.
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?236383-Affordable-Laser-Repair!&highlight=evergreen

[Neville Stewart]

In furtherance of Mr Shepherds statement. This from an insider “ Ceramic core tubes don’t get re-gassed.
They are completely sealed. If a fault occurs it’s would normally be an electronic failure in the RF exciting circuitry.“

[Bill George]

So progress, RF metal tubes last say 10 years and cost $2,000 to regas or Ceramic core tubes that last 10 years and cost $4500 to replace?

[Matt McCoy]

So progress, RF metal tubes last say 10 years and cost $2,000 to regas or Ceramic core tubes that last 10 years and cost $4500 to replace?

I believe the two gentlemen mention 4 and 6.5 years on their ceramic tubes.

[Scott Shepherd]

So progress, RF metal tubes last say 10 years and cost $2,000 to regas or Ceramic core tubes that last 10 years and cost $4500 to replace?

I'm not sure where your 10-year number comes from, but I've seen the bell curve of laser failures and no one in the industry is telling people 10-year lifespans on lasers. The bell curve showed 4-6 year years and then it rapidly dropped off with very few tubes ever lasting 10 years. If it did, it was far outside the norm. That was an internal document from a manufacturer so I know the number was accurate.

All laser rebuilding costs have gone up a lot over the last few years. Anything over 4-5 years and you're living on borrowed time.

[Bill George]

I believe the two gentlemen mention 4 and 6.5 years on their ceramic tubes.

Whoops I missed that part.

[Kev Williams]

So am I understanding this right, that even the electronics in/on a ceramic laser can't be repaired?

[Scott Shepherd]

So am I understanding this right, that even the electronics in/on a ceramic laser can't be repaired?

Of course they can be repaired. Our lasers don’t owe us anything. They make us a lot of money. The Trotec rocked out $2000 worth of work on Friday. Not sure I’m going to complain too much about having to replace a known perishable item when it’s raking the money in for us.

[Andrew Stow]

I'm not sure where your 10-year number comes from, but I've seen the bell curve of laser failures and no one in the industry is telling people 10-year lifespans on lasers. The bell curve showed 4-6 year years and then it rapidly dropped off with very few tubes ever lasting 10 years. If it did, it was far outside the norm. That was an internal document from a manufacturer so I know the number was accurate.

All laser rebuilding costs have gone up a lot over the last few years. Anything over 4-5 years and you're living on borrowed time.


Stop trying to Jinx me! The synrad in my Epilog legend 32 was made in 2001 or 2002 (can't remember off the top of my head.) Came out of an Airforce base and they definitely bought it new. I don't know how many hours it was used but age-wise, it's a champ. 16 years on original gas seems crazy if anything past 4-5 years is living on borrowed time!

[Bryce Mccloud]

Thanks to all for the replies. I'm getting some seriously great and timely help from my sales rep, Trotec repairmen and Trotec headquarters. Alas the laser tube went belly up today. I'll let you all know how it goes. I don't have sense of how long a ceramic tube might last. I recall the selling point was a longer life - how's everyone else's doing?

[Jacob John]

I'm not sure where your 10-year number comes from, but I've seen the bell curve of laser failures and no one in the industry is telling people 10-year lifespans on lasers. The bell curve showed 4-6 year years and then it rapidly dropped off with very few tubes ever lasting 10 years. If it did, it was far outside the norm. That was an internal document from a manufacturer so I know the number was accurate.

All laser rebuilding costs have gone up a lot over the last few years. Anything over 4-5 years and you're living on borrowed time.

4-6 years regardless of use?

[Scott Shepherd]

4-6 years regardless of use?

Use has little to do with the life. If I could locate the file that had the lifespan on it, I would post it here. It was from an advanced training seminar Universal put on years ago. There was a presentation that went through a lot of information and one of those slides was the bell curve of the lifespan. They talked in depth about what to expect, etc.

Remember, statistics are just that. In order to get the curve, you have to have failures at 6 months and failures at 12 years. Neither of those failures in this normal, but that doesn't mean they didn't happen. There's a big difference in the personal experiences of a couple of users and statistics based on 1000's of users.

[Bill George]

I thought the new ceramic tube was an improvement?

[Matt McCoy]

Just curious: If it's ~$4,500 + installation for a 120 W tube, how much for an 80 W tube and installation? Are metal tubes still available from Trotec?

[Mike Null]

Metal tubes are not available from Trotec in new equipment. You can do the install yourself.

[Scott Shepherd]

I thought the new ceramic tube was an improvement?

I'm not following your logic. 1 or 2 people say their tube failed in the normal failure rate and you believe that means all of them are inferior to previous models? That makes no sense. There is no implied additional lifespan with the Ceramic core tubes. It's just like someone switching from Coherent brand to Synrad. Trotec switched to Ceramic. Will Ceramic core tubes have failures? Yes. Will some of them be on the upside of the bell curve for failures? Yes. Does that mean they aren't better than a standard metal core tube? No.

I know many Epilog people with tube failures far earlier than the 4-5 years. Does that mean their tubes are inferior? I wouldn't imply that. It just means that the people I know have had failures. Doesn't mean there aren't 100's or 1000's of people out there getting better life out of them, it's just one data point. One data point doesn't make a trend.

Considering they released them 6-8 years ago and this is the first posted failure of 1 on this forum, I'd say that's pretty darn amazing.

[Keith Outten]

My Speedy 300 was one of the very first Trotec machines shipped with a ceramic tube. At the time (January 2012) Trotec had not advertised that the technology was available, in fact I was told on the phone that there would be something special about my machine but Trotec could not tell me what it was at the time. After a couple months I found the information about the Trotec ceramic core tubes on their web site and checked my machine to see if the label was attached. That is when I found out about the ceramic tube in my machine. Based on my experience I doubt anyone has a ceramic tube that is older then, lets say, 7 years unless they had acquired a beta testing machine.

I don't know for a fact what the timeline has been but these are the facts in my case.

[Matt McCoy]

Not speaking for Bill, but It's my understanding that he's referring to the possibility that switching to a ceramic tube, which may or may not be able to be replaced by the manufacturer, as opposed to repaired by a 3rd party, only increases the yearly operating cost of the Trotec laser. Quick and dirty math would put it at ~$1,000/year, for the tube alone and in this scenario.

[Scott Shepherd]

We got ours about a month before Keith if I recall correctly. We got the last of the Synrad tube. We had to have a machine because we had a large order and the machine was bought to do that order. That would put us in December 2011. Since December of 2011, we've spent zero dollars on it. Only parts replaced were the ones that needed to be replaced when we managed to catch it on fire. Mainly, 1 belt and the air assist tubing. I'd say that 6 1/2 years and zero dollars spent on it is pretty darn impressive. If Keith had the same experience, that's 6 1/2 years minus 1 month with zero maintenance. I still firmly believe that our machine doesn't owe us anything. It's done well for us.

[Matt McCoy]

I don't think it's zero. You will need to put aside some money in the piggy bank for the expense of replacing the tube in ~5 years. In my example above, it's about a $1,000/year against the operation of a consumable. This is only a simple example, though.

[Kev Williams]

So am I understanding this right, that even the electronics in/on a ceramic laser can't be repaired?


Of course they can be repaired. Our lasers don’t owe us anything. They make us a lot of money. The Trotec rocked out $2000 worth of work on Friday. Not sure I’m going to complain too much about having to replace a known perishable item when it’s raking the money in for us.

There were several mentions of 'the electronics go bad' and 'completely sealed' but not much about repairs- which is a good thing- so I was just asking! :)

So then, more questions...

being 'totally sealed', is the life span of the gas supposedly indefinite?

And for the most part, aren't a laser tube's electronics be able to be repaired indefinitely?

If yes to both of the above, then why would it be necessary, other than personal choice or an actual break of some sort, to ever replace a ceramic tube when electronic repairs are so much less expensive? Or metal tubes for that matter?

--I may be coming off as snarky here, but that's not my intent, I consider these legitimate questions. Regardless of how much we do or don't 'owe to our machines', future maintenance and repair costs to our machinery ARE important, especially for someone with 15 machines to keep running! I've been in this business full time for 42 years, and I've only had 2 'major' part failures in all that time, the first (LS900 power supply) was exchanged for a rebuilt unit overnight, $1700 to my door; the second (IS7000 power supply) is in my rep's shop being repaired at his leisure while I'm using one of his spare's. I've been lasering since 2002 and have never had a tube failure. I did replace the tube in the ULS in 2005 just because a cheap rebuilt became available. Even my nearly 5 year old RECI hasn't lost a step. Knock on my head all of the above, if anyone's living on borrowed time... ;)

Keyword for me is 'rebuilt'. If it can't be rebuilt, I likely won't buy it. I realize all the ceramic tubes in service are essentially working prototypes, and the oldest ones are just barely reaching 'average' life-span age, so I'm not expecting firm answers to my questions. :)

[Bill George]

I thought the new ceramic tube was an improvement?

Sorry Scott, but if its a new and improved tube and its more money, should it not be better? I just asked a simple question. No matter how much money its making you, its still taking money out of your bottom line.

If my new $47,000 Chevy pickup engine goes bad at 75,000 miles.... its oh well you did get a lot of miles it will be just $6000 for a new engine. It was actually a friends 2012 Silverado and it was 130,000 miles.

[Jacob John]

Use has little to do with the life. If I could locate the file that had the lifespan on it, I would post it here. It was from an advanced training seminar Universal put on years ago. There was a presentation that went through a lot of information and one of those slides was the bell curve of the lifespan. They talked in depth about what to expect, etc.

Remember, statistics are just that. In order to get the curve, you have to have failures at 6 months and failures at 12 years. Neither of those failures in this normal, but that doesn't mean they didn't happen. There's a big difference in the personal experiences of a couple of users and statistics based on 1000's of users.

Gotcha. I always understood that tubes degraded over time regardless of use, I also thought a less used machine would still likely outlive one that runs 10 hours a day. Good info. But if end of life is end of life (say 4-6 years), that's good info to know and should also be calculated when considering things like Trocare.

[Scott Shepherd]

I thought the new ceramic tube was an improvement?

Sorry Scott, but if its a new and improved tube and its more money, should it not be better? I just asked a simple question. No matter how much money its making you, its still taking money out of your bottom line.

If my new $47,000 Chevy pickup engine goes bad at 75,000 miles.... its oh well you did get a lot of miles it will be just $6000 for a new engine. It was actually a friends 2012 Silverado and it was 130,000 miles.

It's really simple Bill. If Chevy comes out with a "new, better" motor and someone you know has one that fails at 35,000 miles, then that doesn't make everyone ever made poorer quality than the previous motors. That's my point. The ceramic core tubes aren't "new". There was a company making them for years and years before Trotec took them on. Obviously they have data that shows higher performance.

2 years ago, Universal doubled or tripled the pricing for recharging tubes. You used to be able to get a tube recharged for $1,200, which was 1/2 the cost of an Epilog replacement. Then they bumped that up to $2,400 or $3,000. They didn't change anything. It was the same tubes, no new tech. Epilog tubes can run you $5,000-6,000 as well.

It's just a fact these days that tubes are expensive. If you want to compare price and life, then we'd have a fair comparison, but just throwing one event out and calling that the normal is not making much sense to me.

[Matt McCoy]

...Obviously they have data that shows higher performance...

Can you expand on that?

[Scott Shepherd]

Can you expand on that?

Obviously, they wouldn't switch laser sources for an equal or lesser performing tube. That would be shooting yourself in the foot. You can see the benefits on their site : https://www.troteclaser.com/en-us/laser-machines/laser-accessories/ceramicore/

The fact remains there are a LOT of ceramic core tubes in use out there and we're not seeing any reports of premature failures popping up all over the place. When the Epilog Fusion came out, there were quite a few reports of people having issues with those tubes, the motherboards, etc. We're just not seeing any of that on here or on other Trotec related places.

I suspect the cost for a 120W tube replacement from Epilog is about $5,000-6,000. That's my point. This is being treated like it's out of the ordinary and it's not. It's the same range as every other manufacturer.

[Matt McCoy]

Obviously, they wouldn't switch laser sources for an equal or lesser performing tube. That would be shooting yourself in the foot. You can see the benefits on their site : https://www.troteclaser.com/en-us/laser-machines/laser-accessories/ceramicore/

The fact remains there are a LOT of ceramic core tubes in use out there and we're not seeing any reports of premature failures popping up all over the place. When the Epilog Fusion came out, there were quite a few reports of people having issues with those tubes, the motherboards, etc. We're just not seeing any of that on here or on other Trotec related places.

I suspect the cost for a 120W tube replacement from Epilog is about $5,000-6,000. That's my point. This is being treated like it's out of the ordinary and it's not. It's the same range as every other manufacturer.

Thanks for the link. In a previous post, you stated that there is no implied additional lifespan of newer ceramic tubes, however it's one of the listed benefits on the Trotec site. If it's normal that the ceramic tube fails at ~5 years (the same as the previous metal tube), but can only be repaired by the manufacturer, as opposed to having a 3rd party repair a metal tube for approximately half the cost, that might be something to consider in calculating the cost of ownership of the machine over its lifespan.

I don't believe anyone has made a comparison to other manufacturers.

[Scott Shepherd]

Thanks for the link. In a previous post, you stated that there is no implied additional lifespan of newer ceramic tubes, however it's one of the listed benefits on the Trotec site. If it's normal that the ceramic tube fails at ~5 years (the same as the previous metal tube), but can only be repaired by the manufacturer, as opposed to having a 3rd party repair a metal tube for approximately half the cost, that might be something to consider in calculating the cost of ownership of the machine over its lifespan.

I don't believe anyone has made a comparison to other manufacturers.

I've never once heard anyone say anything that is definitive for the lifespan of any laser (except the Chinese who promise 10,000 hours). There is no way to say one will or will not last a long time. I've seen people have them fail 1 month in and I've seen people with machines 15 years old with the original tube. Again, stating that someone had 1 tube fail at 6 1/2 years is less than a metal tube isn't accurate. If the normal lifespan for all metal tube lasers is 4-6 years, then at 6 1/2 years, it DID outlast the metal tube laser from a statistical standpoint.

I'm still unsure how and what you are comparing to. This is 1 case. So what. One or two data points don't make a trend. In all the years this forum has been around, how many times have we seen "My Ceramic Core tube died" posts? To my knowledge, this is the first one. I'd say that's pretty remarkable and a heck of a track record, but that's all still conjecture because we don't know the real numbers of how many tubes are out there and what life they are experiencing.

No one is saying you can't have it repaired by a 3rd party. What's being said is no one's tried. I wonder why no one's called a 3rd party to ask yet? Maybe because their tubes haven't failed yet?

[Scott Shepherd]

Here's the image from the seminar in 2009.

389517

[Bill George]

Is it not true there are fewer ceramic tubes in operation, compared to metal RF tubes so there would be less failed? How many laser users or businesses are there who are not members of Sawmill Creek and we do not hear about?

I would rather have a 6 year life projected tube that can be rebuilt or recharged for say $2000, than a ceramic one that needs to be replaced (so far) at double the cost for the same life span. Have the ceramic machines enhanced production in some way?

[Gary Hair]

Is it not true there are fewer ceramic tubes in operation, compared to metal RF tubes so there would be less failed?
Yes, so the failure quantity is 1, rate? Don't know


How many laser users or businesses are there who are not members of Sawmill Creek and we do not hear about?
I am sure there are many, but there are quite a few here so any failures would certainly be posted.


I would rather have a 6 year life projected tube that can be rebuilt or recharged for say $2000, than a ceramic one that needs to be replaced (so far) at double the cost for the same life span.
As mentioned previously, we have a data set of (1) so a single Trotec so far has needed a tube at 6-1/2 years and that is not a trend, it's a single failure. I guarantee that every other manufacturer has had multiple failures during that same time period, so where does the smart money lie?



Have the ceramic machines enhanced production in some way?

This is from the Trotec website, describing the Ceramicore tubes:


100% CeramicTrotec laser systems are equipped with a new line of CO2 laser sources from the US-based manufacturer Iradion Laser, Inc. The innovative and patented laser source concept stands for reliability, high engraving quality and longevity. The resonator body where the laser radiation is generated is made of 100% ceramic. This is unique in the industry.
Perfect bodyUsually all-metal, and sometimes glass laser sources are used for laser processing. CeramiCore® technology totally redefines the basic laser source. The ceramic design gives tremendous benefits compared to all metal or glass lasers: There are no aluminum welds or sealings, which could leak over time. This is guaranteed by the production process. Two ceramic half shells are fused together to form the resonator during manufacturing. The ceramic resonator is fired at 800 degrees and the burning process effectively cleans the interior surface immaculately.
Pure gas compositionAll of the optical elements are glued onto the ceramic, the electrodes are mounted on the outside of the resonator and the gas is excited through the ceramic body. This means that there are no interior metal surfaces that could damage the gas mixture's equilibrium. The result is a pure gas composition over the whole lifetime of the laser source. Longest lifetime is guaranteed.
Fastest pulse speeds for highest engraving qualityCeramic lasers can be operated at much greater pressures resulting in faster pulse speeds, which in turn are critical for high speed engraving and marking applications. Laser users can benefit from highest engraving quality. Also, the electronics' innovative architecture features a lower energy consumption. Benchmark tests show a reduction of up to 30%.
Seamless integrationThe laser sources have been perfectly optimized for Trotec laser systems to maximize the CeramiCore® technology's benefits.
About IradionIradion is a US-based manufacturer of OEM laser sources with 15 years of experience in developing and manufacturing laser source technology for sophisticated applications like ceramic scribing. Iradion’s research efforts are fully focused on their groundbreaking ceramic technology. Initially developed for one of the world’s biggest defense and security corporations, Iradion’s laser source technology was designed to provide precision, stability and longevity in the harshest environments possible.

[Scott Shepherd]

I would rather have a 6 year life projected tube that can be rebuilt or recharged for say $2000, than a ceramic one that needs to be replaced (so far) at double the cost for the same life span. Have the ceramic machines enhanced production in some way?

And who said you can't have it repaired for $2000? You heard a dealer price of $4,000 for a 120W tube to be repaired. Like I said, name me any other manufacturer who will rebuild a 120W laser for $4,000. Not happening. There's been exactly zero posts from anyone who's actually called a 3rd party and said they couldn't repair the electronics on one. Zero. So it's pretty hard to say that it's more expensive when there's not one person who's posted the price of the 3rd party repair.

Once someone posts it, then we'll be able to compare the following :

Manufacturer --------- Tube Mfg------------Cost to Refurbish at OEM------------Cost to Refurb at 3rd Party

Epilog
Universal
Trotec

Then we'll know exactly what the cost of ownership actually is. Until then, I'm still not seeing a shred of evidence that it is or is not more expensive to have a Ceramic Core tube.

[Tony Lenkic]

Just for the record............
I had to replace my Ceramicore tube last year. Laser was manufactured in 2012 so 5 years life on original.
There are many more that failed that we on SMC do not know about.

[Bill George]

Just for the record............
I had to replace my Ceramicore tube last year. Laser was manufactured in 2012 so 5 years life on original.
There are many more that failed that we on SMC do not know about.

My point....

[Scott Shepherd]

And mine as well. I know 1 guy who has 2 Epilog Fusions and he's replaced the tubes about 4-5 times in less than 5 years. Okay, so what's that prove? Statistically, nothing.

[Jacob John]

This is only anecdote, and I love my Speedy, but it was definitely promoted that the ceramic tube had a higher life expectancy than other manufacturers of tubes. I still would have bought Trotec anyway, but I did consider it a plus. That's why I asked my original question.

[Paul Phillips]

And who said you can't have it repaired for $2000? You heard a dealer price of $4,000 for a 120W tube to be repaired. Like I said, name me any other manufacturer who will rebuild a 120W laser for $4,000. Not happening. There's been exactly zero posts from anyone who's actually called a 3rd party and said they couldn't repair the electronics on one. Zero. So it's pretty hard to say that it's more expensive when there's not one person who's posted the price of the 3rd party repair.

Once someone posts it, then we'll be able to compare the following :

Manufacturer --------- Tube Mfg------------Cost to Refurbish at OEM------------Cost to Refurb at 3rd Party

Epilog
Universal
Trotec

Then we'll know exactly what the cost of ownership actually is. Until then, I'm still not seeing a shred of evidence that it is or is not more expensive to have a Ceramic Core tube.

Steve, see my post at #12 about my experience, I can fill in one line here.

Manufacturer --------- Tube Mfg------------Cost to Refurbish at OEM------------Cost to Refurb at 3rd Party

Epilog
Universal---------------Universal 60w----------ULS $2150----------------------------Evergreen Laser $750
Trotec

[Matt McCoy]

I've never once heard anyone say anything that is definitive for the lifespan of any laser...If the normal lifespan for all metal tube lasers is 4-6 years, then at 6 1/2 years, it DID outlast the metal tube laser from a statistical standpoint...

The length of time the manufacturers provide a warranty on the tube is the definitive lifespan of the tube. Everything else is a cherry on top. Back-of-napkin math: (Just from this thread) 1 ceramic tube failed at 1 year (replaced under warranty), 1 tube failed at 4 years, 1 tube failed at 6.5 years, and 1 tube failed at 5 years. This averages out to 4.125 years and is about the same stated lifespan of the previous Trotec metal tubes, I believe. So, the only comparison is to the current generation of tech (ceramic) to the previous (metal) to consider the current cost of ownership on a Trotec machine. If a metal tube could be serviced by a reputable 3rd party for 1/2 to 1/3 the cost, for about the same service life, the cost of ownership has increased. This does not consider other advantages a ceramic tube might offer nor the failure rate of the Trotec metal tubes.


No one is saying you can't have it repaired by a 3rd party. What's being said is no one's tried. I wonder why no one's called a 3rd party to ask yet? Maybe because their tubes haven't failed yet?

I'm not sure if Evergreen or Photovac service Iradion ceramic tubes for Trotec, but neither of their websites list Iradion as a manufacture of CO2 tubes they repair.


...I would rather have a 6 year life projected tube that can be rebuilt or recharged for say $2000, than a ceramic one that needs to be replaced (so far) at double the cost for the same life span...

^^^

[Scott Shepherd]

The length of time the manufacturers provide a warranty on the tube is the definitive lifespan of the tube. Everything else is a cherry on top. Back-of-napkin math: (Just from this thread) 1 ceramic tube failed at 1 year (replaced under warranty), 1 tube failed at 4 years, 1 tube failed at 6.5 years, and 1 tube failed at 5 years. This averages out to 4.125 years and is about the same stated lifespan of the previous Trotec metal tubes, I believe. So, the only comparison is to the current generation of tech (ceramic) to the previous (metal) to consider the current cost of ownership on a Trotec machine. If a metal tube could be serviced by a reputable 3rd party for 1/2 to 1/3 the cost, for about the same service life, the cost of ownership has increased. This does not consider other advantages a ceramic tube might offer nor the failure rate of the Trotec metal tubes.



I'm not sure if Evergreen or Photovac service Iradion ceramic tubes for Trotec, but neither of their websites list Iradion as a manufacture of CO2 tubes they repair.



^^^

Then don't buy one.

Again, posting 3-4 bits of data doesn't mean much. In your example if we had those 3-4 and then we had 250 that are out there still in service then it would raise that average up in a hurry.

I could easily post that the one Epilog user I mentioned that had 4 tubes go bad in 4 years would show an average of 1 year. So are we to assume that the average lifespan of an Epilog Fusion tube is 1 year? That would be ridiculous to suggest.

Right, you aren't sure if they repair them, so you can't say they are more expensive to own. They may be. They may not be. We don't know at this point because no one's checked. Once someone does, then we'll know.

But to try and extrapolate average lifespans of tubes from users on the internet and not having any numbers on how many samples are out there that are still running isn't very productive unless you're looking for an internet conversation because that's about all it is without the data from the manufacturers.

[Mike Null]

The length of time the manufacturers provide a warranty on the tube is the definitive lifespan of the tube.

That's Hogwash!

[Kev Williams]

Actually Mike, it's not hogwash, it's a cold hard fact, most if not all tubes come with a warranty which IS the "lifespan" as defined by it's manufacturer. After the warranty period the mfr's commitment is done, therefore the amount of time a tube may live beyond the warranty IS a 'cherry on top' as Matt put it. Obviously, "actual" and "definitive" lifespans aren't the same. But just as a personal observation (http://www.engraver1.com/gifs/stirthepot.gif;)) I would think that if Iradion believes it's ceramic laser to have a longer 'typical' lifespan than their competitors, that they would at least up the warranty period 50% to 18 months...

FWIW, the 'big 3' warranty's:

Iradion warranty:

Equipment manufactured by Iradion is guaranteed to be free of defects in materials and workmanship for a period of one year (12 Months) from the date of purchase. Warranty does not apply to any defect caused by negligence, misuse (including environmental factors), accident, alteration, or improper maintenance. Iradion will pay round trip shipping using Iradion's preferred shipment methods for any approved warranty claim made within 45 days of receipt of goods. After 45 days but within the warranty period, Iradion will pay the cost of shipping any repaired or replaced unit to Customer, but Customer must pay the cost of shipping to Iradion. In order to maintain this warranty, Customer must ensure that all merchandise is operated under the conditions set forth in the applicable documentation and that only authorized Iradion replacement parts are used. This warranty is void if these requirements are not met. Iradion will not be responsible for any warranty or representation made by any third party.

Synrad warranty:




Standard Product Warranty on Lasers and Components - One (1) year
All lasers rated at 100 Watts or above and all ti-Series lasers - Two (2) years
Synrad’s 48-1 10W laser - Three (3) years


Coherent warranty:

Warranty Information for Lasers
All electronic and mechanical parts are warranted against defects in materials and workmanship, under normal use, for a twelve (12) month warranty period. The obligation of Coherent is limited to repairing or replacing equipment that proves to be defective during the warranty period without charge. Warranties do not cover damages due to misuse, negligence, or accidents due to installations, repairs or adjustments not specifically authorized by a certified Coherent engineer. Coherent, Inc. will, at its option, repair or replace any product or component found to be defective during the warranty period. This warranty applies only to the original purchaser and is not transferable.

[Mike Null]

A warranty does not define the lifespan of anything I can think of. It is purely a protection period by its definition. The real fact is that nobody, in my 20 years in the business, has been able to identify the life of any tube. If I were to make a judgment based on my experience I would think that it's in the area of 6 to 7 years on average. But if you said 5 years I would accept that as well.

I have had 3 machines and replaced two tubes. One after 36 months (in warranty) and one after more than 8 years. The one I replaced after 8 years is still running 4 plus years later. What's that prove? Nothing.

[Matt McCoy]

...I could easily post that the one Epilog user I mentioned that had 4 tubes go bad in 4 years would show an average of 1 year. So are we to assume that the average lifespan of an Epilog Fusion tube is 1 year? That would be ridiculous to suggest.

Why do you keep pivoting to Epilog? The discussion is real-talk about Trotec (ceramic) vs. Trotec (metal) and their lifespan/repair cost.


Right, you aren't sure if they repair them, so you can't say they are more expensive to own. They may be. They may not be. We don't know at this point because no one's checked. Once someone does, then we'll know.

That means that the gentleman that started this thread is still looking at $4,200 + installation for a new ceramic tube at this time.


...without the data from the manufacturers.

When will that be available? I've read back about ten years here, and the SMC consensus is that RF metal tubes last ~4-6 years. What has been shown in this thread is that ceramic tubes last ~4-6 years.


That's Hogwash!

Thanks for the info, Mike. :)


A warranty does not define the lifespan of anything I can think of. It is purely a protection period by its definition. The real fact is that nobody, in my 20 years in the business, has been able to identify the life of any tube. If I were to make a judgment based on my experience I would think that it's in the area of 6 to 7 years on average. But if you said 5 years I would accept that as well.

I have had 3 machines and replaced two tubes. One after 36 months (in warranty) and one after more than 8 years. The one I replaced after 8 years is still running 4 plus years later. What's that prove? Nothing.

Your experience would put tube life at 5.5 years, at this point.

[Scott Shepherd]

Why do you keep pivoting to Epilog? The discussion is real-talk about Trotec (ceramic) vs. Trotec (metal) and their lifespan/repair cost.

Because some of the logic being used is nuts and I'm using Epilog because it shows how crazy some of this conversation is.

You keep implying that the $4,200 cost of a 120w ceramic tube refurb is more expensive than a non ceramic core tube. I keep asking you to prove it. To date, there's been not one shred of evidence that shows it is more expensive. Yet it keeps getting repeated as fact, that it doesn't last longer and it's more expensive.

Factually, it might be. Factually it might last 30% less time and cost 50% more to refurb and there may not be a single 3rd party company that refurbs them, however, we don't know any of that because all we have at this point is one data point. The price. We can't compare the price to anyone else, we can't compare the price to any 3rd party service, we can't compare the life, from a statistical standpoint to anything else, but comments keep getting made like "why would you put a ceramic core tube in if it last the same time and costs more?". Costs more than what? That's my point. In order to say X costs more than Y, then we have to have more information than the cost of X.

The math logic being used is crazy. Take 3-4 people's posts and averaging them calling that the average expected life of a tube is nuts. That's why I used the Epilog example to show how that flawed logic in math could make it look like Epilog has a very serious problem.

Like I have said repeatedly. It might cost more and last less time, however, we don't know because we don't have the data. The data might show that's the case, the data might show that's dead wrong. Until we have actual data, then this is all just armchair quarterbacking.

[Paul Phillips]

Just talked to Evergreen Laser, turns out they do repair Iradion lasers, they said they have seen about a dozen and most just needed a gas recharge, this is really interesting news as we have all been assuming that the since they are marketed as being superior to metal tubes and are not supposed to leak gas, this seems to not be the case, they are definitely leaking gas, not an electronic failure like we suspected. Evergreen quoted $1050 for a 60 watt Iradion re-gas and for the OP, 120 watt would be a bit higher, approximately $1500. Beats $4200! This is a bit disappointing news however as it seems to be a bit of a tarnish to the Trotec reputation as the best of the best and Iradion/ceramic cores as a superior, longer lasting solution to metal tubes. I understand it's not definitive proof of an overall picture but the number of known failures just went up and the appearance of a possible gas failure problem! Also interesting that although we have a large user base here, we only hear about a small percentage of the actual problems that exist. I suppose more time will tell.

[Scott Shepherd]

Interesting Paul! Thanks for taking the time to call and find out. I just recommended Evergreen to someone yesterday. Interesting that they say they replaced the gas. It was my understanding that the tubes were completely sealed from a heat process, no actual seals. So there would be nothing that could leak unless the "weld" or "fusion" of the ceramic failed. Interesting.

$1,200 for a 120W tube recharge. WOW....that's cheap!

Thanks again for posting this. I wonder how many metal tubes he's replaced the gas in (as a comparison for sample sizes).

[Paul Phillips]

Steve, yeah it's really strange because the whole marketing thing is that it's not supposed to leak! Evergreen said that there is a valve that is used to fill the gas through and that is likely where it is leaking from. It would be nice hear from an expert as to why this is a problem. Dave Sheldrake, I would love to hear what you think?

[Kev Williams]

I won't beat the lifespan dead horse, but I will say this: of course ceramic tubes can leak, likely thru the glue that holds the optics in place. It is nice to know they can be re-gassed :)

[Scott Shepherd]

Here's the blurb from Iradion's site :

389735

[Gary Hair]

and more from Iradion "How long do they last?Iradion’s patented Ceramic Core CO2 laser are intended to last for many years without any required maintenance or service. Individual usage/applications may vary but our lasers should be worry free for 5 years or longer."

[Kev Williams]

From Trotec, note the red text: If they can figure out something better than "glued onto the ceramic", they'll have the perfect tube!

100% Ceramic Trotec laser systems are equipped with a new line of CO2 laser sources from the US-based manufacturer Iradion Laser, Inc. The innovative and patented laser source concept stands for reliability, high engraving quality and longevity. The resonator body where the laser radiation is generated is made of 100% ceramic. This is unique in the industry.

Perfect body

Usually all-metal, and sometimes glass laser sources are used for laser processing. CeramiCore® technology totally redefines the basic laser source. The ceramic design gives tremendous benefits compared to all metal or glass lasers: There are no aluminum welds or sealings, which could leak over time. This is guaranteed by the production process. Two ceramic half shells are fused together to form the resonator during manufacturing. The ceramic resonator is fired at 800 degrees and the burning process effectively cleans the interior surface immaculately.
Pure gas composition All of the optical elements are glued onto the ceramic, the electrodes are mounted on the outside of the resonator and the gas is excited through the ceramic body. This means that there are no interior metal surfaces that could damage the gas mixture's equilibrium. The result is a pure gas composition over the whole lifetime of the laser source. Longest lifetime is guaranteed.

Fastest pulse speeds for highest engraving quality Ceramic lasers can be operated at much greater pressures resulting in faster pulse speeds, which in turn are critical for high speed engraving and marking applications. Laser users can benefit from highest engraving quality. Also, the electronics' innovative architecture features a lower energy consumption. Benchmark tests show a reduction of up to 30%.
Seamless integration The laser sources have been perfectly optimized for Trotec laser systems to maximize the CeramiCore® technology's benefits.
About Iradion Iradion is a US-based manufacturer of OEM laser sources with 15 years of experience in developing and manufacturing laser source technology for sophisticated applications like ceramic scribing. Iradion’s research efforts are fully focused on their groundbreaking ceramic technology. Initially developed for one of the world’s biggest defense and security corporations, Iradion’s laser source technology was designed to provide precision, stability and longevity in the harshest environments possible.

[Mike Null]

I don't see an issue with the gluing of the optics. That may well be an advantage.

But Iradion says no leaks and Evergreen says they leak. ????

[Paul Phillips]

The design makes sense in theory, that metal tubes tend to leak through the welds and therefor reducing the number of potential leak points with ceramic should equal less leaks. We don't know for sure yet but seems as if there is a higher number of ceramic leaks than there should be according to Evergreen. Would be interested to hear what Dave Sheldrake has to say, Dave where are you?

[Kev Williams]

"Glue" is the weak link.

Example: many people believe fiberglass boats are waterproof. They're not. No matter how many gallons of epoxy resin is used in the gelcoat and fiberglass construction of boats, you can't just leave a 'glass boat in the water indefinitely because water WILL eventually penetrate the gelcoat and fiberglass...

Occam's razor? If a ceramic tube is as completely sealed as they claim, then the likely explanation for the gas escaping is thru the glue holding the optics in place...

[Matt McCoy]

It's my understanding that the majority of RF tube issues are related to electronic failure, not loss of gas.

[Scott Shepherd]

Just for reference, I had a PM from an Epilog person, the cost to recharge a 120W is $2,195 at this point in time.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Yes they do leak, yes it is from the bond on the optics and at the gas valving.It's why big industrial's tend to be flowing gas types not sealed units. (it also means you can vary the gas mix)(There is actually very little CO2 in a CO2 laser) :)

[Dave Sheldrake]

It's also not really anything new, in the late 70's ION lasers used ceramic coated metal tubes, all the worlds industrial's at the upper end use aluminium with a forced ceramic coating on the inside walls, there's a good reason for it, Ceramics don't conduct heat very well (hence why the space shuttle had tiles on it) where as Aluminium does (hence why it's terrible stuff to laser cut) stable temperatures and heat removal are the two biggest considerations in laser technology. solid Ceramic cores sound great but the reality is there isn't a huge benefit to it and in fact there are some draw backs.

Both the ABL and current AA lasers systems used/use metal cores that are oxidised to form an aluminium oxide coating (Al^2O^3), because the most stable Oxidation state of Aluminium is +3 (The inert pair effect)

[Paul Phillips]

Dave, thanks for educating us! It is a bit disappointing to find out that it's all marketing hype, after watching the Trotec video one would think this is meant to revolutionize the industry but it seems more like one of those ideas that costs more than existing technology but just doesn't work any better! You mention there are some drawback to the Ceramic Cores, what else is there other than the gas leaking? And as long as this technology has been around why can't they seem to improve it to allow the tubes to last longer than 5-6 years? I think I know the answer, I just hope it's not true!

[Dave Sheldrake]

Biggest problem is heat management in any laser core, ceramic doesn't conduct heat well at all, it's strong and you can get some very high temperature ceramics that will stand thousands of degree's but you have to get rid of that heat somewhere, Conduction, Convection and Radiation are the three ways of doing it. With ceramics you reduce the efficiency of the conduction and convection modes.

You can make core last longer than 5 - 6 years but the issue is cost over effect, it's the same reason there is no such thing as pure aluminium, the cost to remove the last 0.1% of contamination is more than the cost of removing the first 99.9%. It's also bad economics, making a product with a really long MTBF is self defeating. Ideally it's good sense to make something that has a decent(acceptable) life time but will fail eventually so you can get repeat business.

Laser cores are physically violent environments, lasers have tended to move forward by means of evolution rather than revolution and I can't really see much change to that in future unless the laws of Physics change

[Mike Null]

I appreciate Dave's expertise and input and I am not disputing any of his remarks. But it is premature to judge the average life of the Iradion tubes that Trotec is using. They just haven't been out long enough to make a call.

Keep in mind that a few years ago there were 4 tube suppliers not including Iradion. Deos was then bought by Coherent and Synrad was bought by GSI. During that time both ULS and Epilog made the decision to build their own tubes and a little later Trotec decided that Iradion was their best option.

That tells me that the metal tube suppliers became too difficult to deal with and the laser mfrs felt compelled to seek an alternative.

As a Trotec owner, and a very happy one, I have seen nothing that would cause me concern at this point.

I concur with Dave that they do run hotter as I believe Trotec has added another fan or a higher powered one to facilitate cooling. My belief is that there is more fan noise with this machine than my previous one which had a Coherent tube.

[Matt McCoy]

...I concur with Dave that they do run hotter as I believe Trotec has added another fan or a higher powered one to facilitate cooling. My belief is that there is more fan noise with this machine than my previous one which had a Coherent tube.

That's interesting because Trotec says: "Also, the electronics' innovative architecture features a lower energy consumption. Benchmark tests show a reduction of up to 30%."

https://www.troteclaser.com/en-us/laser-machines/laser-accessories/ceramicore/

[Mike Null]

Mike

I should probably have said noisier as I don't have any idea about the power consumption of one versus the other.

[Paul Phillips]

I appreciate Dave's expertise and input and I am not disputing any of his remarks. But it is premature to judge the average life of the Iradion tubes that Trotec is using. They just haven't been out long enough to make a call.

Keep in mind that a few years ago there were 4 tube suppliers not including Iradion. Deos was then bought by Coherent and Synrad was bought by GSI. During that time both ULS and Epilog made the decision to build their own tubes and a little later Trotec decided that Iradion was their best option.

That tells me that the metal tube suppliers became too difficult to deal with and the laser mfrs felt compelled to seek an alternative.

As a Trotec owner, and a very happy one, I have seen nothing that would cause me concern at this point.

I concur with Dave that they do run hotter as I believe Trotec has added another fan or a higher powered one to facilitate cooling. My belief is that there is more fan noise with this machine than my previous one which had a Coherent tube.

Mike, I think that's a good assessment, thanks. My concern is that the Iradion tubes are marketed as being longer lasting at least as far as gas leaks are concerned, (see Steve's post #60) and have superior quality, (see post #42), I know there's not enough evidence yet to make a definitive statement but it seems like the evidence is pointing to a potential problem. After talking to Evergreen laser they say they are seeing a majority of gas leak failures. With the increased cost of the Iradion tubes to both purchase and repair, this bothers me, why pay the extra if the quality isn't really there?

[Kev Williams]

To expound on Steve & Dave's 'assessments': The only reason we're seeing "a potential problem" is simply because those who have had problems, and one place that repairs the things, have made us aware OF the problems.

But what we're NOT aware of, is total number of similar units that DON'T have a problem!

It's a simple fact of life that we humans are quick to let other humans know when we think we've wasted our hard earned money on a piece-O-krap product, but how many of us ever just go online to proclaim "hey, my Samsung fridge is still keeping my food cold!" --- :D --- this is why internet sellers BEG for reviews, positive OR negative, and why the positive reviews- usually- overwhelm the negative ones!

So then, of the few failures reported so far, about all we can extrapolate from the reported data is: some of many tubes have failed; the percentage of failures to non-failures is unknown; the tube life at the failure may or may not be within "normal limits", and the common type of failure may or may not be considered normal... all in all, at this point in time, statistically insignificant is my call ;)

[Philip Fostini]

Just an FYI , I just completed machining,testing,refilling and charting several Iradion model 156 lasers. I found the following. Yes they can be refilled/Remanufactred. We had an influx of them come into our facility and we found they are very stable lasers, Robust and have a lifetime of equivalent metal RF tubes. They also fail for similar reason. We did some gas analysis and find the Gas still will imbalance over time and even though the tube body is ceramic , they still use technology equivalent to Epilog and Synrad for sealing methods. It gets a bit technical but in short, yes We can refill and repair these lasers. Our refilling shows there is lots of buffer in power. A Model 156 before refill was 32 watts after refill 94 watts. I am at home now but I believe the 156 is rated 60 watts. I knew the inventor some 30 years ago so I am familiar with the technology behind them. So the technology is well established. If anyone has questions please dont hesitate to contact myself or Jean F.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Mike

I should probably have said noisier as I don't have any idea about the power consumption of one versus the other.

RF travels through ceramics more easily than it does through metal so the input power / conversion factor will be better, the problem will be getting rid of the excess converted heat

[Dave Sheldrake]

Just an FYI , I just completed machining,testing,refilling and charting several Iradion model 156 lasers. I found the following. Yes they can be refilled/Remanufactred. We had an influx of them come into our facility and we found they are very stable lasers, Robust and have a lifetime of equivalent metal RF tubes. They also fail for similar reason. We did some gas analysis and find the Gas still will imbalance over time and even though the tube body is ceramic , they still use technology equivalent to Epilog and Synrad for sealing methods. It gets a bit technical but in short, yes We can refill and repair these lasers. Our refilling shows there is lots of buffer in power. A Model 156 before refill was 32 watts after refill 94 watts. I am at home now but I believe the 156 is rated 60 watts. I knew the inventor some 30 years ago so I am familiar with the technology behind them. So the technology is well established. If anyone has questions please dont hesitate to contact myself or Jean F.

Folks tend to ask me questions and seem to think I know what I'm on about...forget that... Phillip and Jean are Mr & Mrs laser...I am just the student...these folks are the professors :) (and Hiya Phil ;))

[Paul Phillips]

Kevin, there's often too much emotion in our opinions and you are definitely the voice of reason here, thank you!
Philip, good info, thanks for your input.
Dave, you have done much to help and educate the less knowledgeable, you're appreciated more than you know!

[Kev Williams]

Dave and his 'I am just the student' comment makes me chuckle-- my wife's eldest son attempted college a few times, he's always been a 'basic' electrical whiz who simply wanted to learn more. After 3 tries he finally gave up college because the teachers, who quickly figured out his abilities, kept having him teach class while they went out for lunch or a car wash! :D

That's the kind of 'student' Dave is, and I'm very humbled by his knowledge :)

[Dave Sheldrake]

Thanks folks....I know Jean and Philip and please believe me, they are orders of magnitude above anything I would ever consider debating. They are top tier experts in their fields without any doubt.

Outside of academia there are 4 people I sit up and listen to, Phil, Jean, Tweakie and Vasily Basov

[Matt McCoy]

...we found they [Iradion ceramic] are very stable lasers, Robust and have a lifetime of equivalent metal RF tubes. They also fail for similar reason.

Trotec says:

"The result is a pure gas composition over the whole lifetime of the laser source. Longest lifetime is guaranteed."

How much more do the Ceramicore tubes cost?

[Scott Shepherd]

Trotec says:

"The result is a pure gas composition over the whole lifetime of the laser source. Longest lifetime is guaranteed."

How much more do the Ceramicore tubes cost?

They don't cost anything more because that's all they offer. I'll be able to speak about the higher fan noise in about 1 hour, as I'm installing a new machine at the moment. It'll sit next to a 9 year old one, so I'll have a good comparison. It has the same number of fans on the tube and the same configuration of the fans, so maybe they are a different speed? I'll know shortly when I power it up later today.

[Matt McCoy]

They don't cost anything more because that's all they offer...

Did the price point on the machine increase after switching to Ceramicore tubes?

[Gary Hair]

Did the price point on the machine increase after switching to Ceramicore tubes?

That's pretty much impossible to answer since the price anyone pays is entirely dependent on their negotiation skills and the vendor selling the laser. I don't know if Trotec publishes MSRP or not, but even if that changed when they transitioned to Ceramicore tubes, it could have been a number of other factors influencing the price.

[Tom Costello]

I recently purchased a 120 watt Speedy 400. One of the deciding factors was the ceramic core tube. I did however receive conflicting information. My Trotec rep told me they could not be recharged, however Phil from Evergreen quoted me $1200 to recharge that tube. I hope it's several years before I have to cross that bridge to find out.

[Matt McCoy]

That's pretty much impossible to answer since the price anyone pays is entirely dependent on their negotiation skills and the vendor selling the laser. I don't know if Trotec publishes MSRP or not, but even if that changed when they transitioned to Ceramicore tubes, it could have been a number of other factors influencing the price.

Sure -- I understand and respect that. Trotec's haggle business model intentionally obfuscates the price point as a strategy (Epilog, Universal, and others do this too, so not picking on Trotec). This makes it more difficult for potential customers to be completely informed, and perhaps there is also some opaqueness that's also confusing some reps, that might be causing them to pass along bad info (i.e., can the ceramic tubes be refilled/re-manufactured?)

Trotec is marketing and branding its CeramiCore laser for its longer lifespan, but that may not necessarily be definitive. The SMC conventional wisdom is that it's the electronics that usually fail on a RF laser, not the loss of gas that a CeramiCore design is marketed to help prevent.

The questions remain: Did the MSRP increase due to the switch to a new-technology ceramic laser and was the warranty extended, since Trotec guaranteed a longer-life tube? Of course, this discussion does not consider any additional advertised benefits of a ceramic laser, such as stability, increased pulse speeds, efficiency, etc.

[Keith Outten]

Matt,

I doubt that your interpretation of the policies concerning price points is accurate. Contacting the manufacturer is always the best policy when anyone is seeking accurate price information or specifications and I have not seen anyone post here who has quoted information obtained directly from any manufacturer that has not been accurate.

The lifespan of ceramic core technology is still undetermined in my opinion, there has not been enough time or data collected to provide a definitive answer to the question. The technical advantages have been proven, ceramic tubes are faster and more productive IMO. Concerning the MSRP price adjustment when Trotec switched to ceramic core tubes I can't answer but I can say that I purchased a 75 watt Speedy 300 for the sign shop at CNU and several months later I bought my 80 watt ceramic core machine for my sign shop. Although I can't remember the exact price for the CNU machine I don't remember it being significantly different from the price I paid for mine. Of course there is also the difference in how any machine is configured and the options involved that makes it difficult to do any kind of comparative shopping.

[Matt McCoy]

Matt,

I doubt that your interpretation of the policies concerning price points is accurate. Contacting the manufacturer is always the best policy when anyone is seeking accurate price information or specifications and I have not seen anyone post here who has quoted information obtained directly from any manufacturer that has not been accurate.


Hi Keith: To be clear, I'm not suggesting dishonesty, just that posts in this thread would indicate that some representatives of Trotec may or may not know if their ceramic lasers can be recharged by a 3rd party and the expected lifespan of their tubes. Since the price of a new Trotex machine can vary thousands of dollars between customers and they don't post MSRP, it puts potential buyers at a disadvantage.


The lifespan of ceramic core technology is still undetermined in my opinion, there has not been enough time or data collected to provide a definitive answer to the question. The technical advantages have been proven, ceramic tubes are faster and more productive IMO. Concerning the MSRP price adjustment when Trotec switched to ceramic core tubes I can't answer but I can say that I purchased a 75 watt Speedy 300 for the sign shop at CNU and several months later I bought my 80 watt ceramic core machine for my sign shop. Although I can't remember the exact price for the CNU machine I don't remember it being significantly different from the price I paid for mine. Of course there is also the difference in how any machine is configured and the options involved that makes it difficult to do any kind of comparative shopping.

That's good info -- thank you. Do you recall if the warranty was extended?

[Scott Shepherd]

Having just bought another one, I can't say the price appeared to be any different than anything I've seen before. Kind of hard to compare now, since they haven't offered the Synrad tubes in about 7 years now, I don't guess. The warranty we got was longer than the warranty we got when we bought the one with the Synrad tube. The fans are louder, but I think that's because of the configuration to some degree. One thing that is quite different is the machine can be set to go to sleep. When it goes to sleep, the new machines actually appear to be off, where the older machines just go into a reduced power mode but are still running.

Its first day of production was a good one. If it does this for a month, it will pay for itself in a month.

I don't know of any manufacturer that's going to let their reps recommend a 3rd party repair firm for laser repair. In fact, I've always heard them tell you not to do that because they didn't hold to the same specs as the factory. Whether or not that's true, I have no idea, but I can't imagine taking your car to the Ford dealer and having them tell you it would be less expensive if you took it to a shop around the corner to have the engine repaired.

[Mike Null]

Having just purchased a Speedy 300 in January of this year I am of the opinion that prices have declined since I bought my first Trotec in 2006. I will not post what I paid then or now but if I needed another machine it would be a Trotec.

To Steve's point, these machines pay for themselves quickly and they retain their value remarkably well.

[donald bugansky]

Not sure if this helps, but I found the following on Evergreen Laser (also know as laser tech on Ebay) as it relates to the ceramic tubes.

"We have seen several Iradion tubes come in lately. We have recently received more Iradion model 156 lasers. Last month we fully equipped our stations and processes to handle recharging and repairing Iradion lasers. In the process, what we have found are leaks, gas imbalance and no starts. In regards to the hype- it is true that the tube is ceramic. Unfortunately, the mirror holders and mirrors are epoxied onto the ceramic. Adjustments for the mirrors are done through o-rings. This in our eyes, voids the hype of being a contaminant free ceramic tube that will last forever. We hear it is unable to be regassed. This is FALSE. We have successfully regassed several. In fact on the model 156 we often are seeing over 90W after recharge. The lasers do run very stable and appear to be robust. They run cool which is great for the electronics and the beam specifications are very good. To put facts behind the comments, we did both RGA tests to verify the gas imbalance and Helium leak checks to identify leaks in the tubes. Gas imbalance simply makes the laser the same as everyone else’s laser. It will last X amount of time. There is no unlimited lifetime because of the ceramic construction. Our main concern is the leaks in the tubes. Because of the epoxy joining metal to ceramic the Iradion tubes seem to be very temperature/ environmental dependent- i.e. changes in temperature are suspected to cause leaks.
Customers we have spoken to and end users of the machines seem to be under the impression that these tubes cannot be recharged. They most certainly can! And we can do it for roughly 30% of the cost of replacement. Do not discard them."

Hope this helps bring some clarity.

Bugs