Thoughts on this old rusty 30" disc sander

[John Halsted]

https://chambana.craigslist.org/tls/d/30-apex-or-disc-sander/6632479655.html

Just saw this posted near me and I do want a large disc sander. I was wondering if anyone could give me some thoughts on this machine and if it is worth fixing up. Is $600 a good price?

I already contacted the seller asking for a model number and motor specs.

[Mike Cutler]

If all of the parts are there and nothing is cracked, then yes, it's worth rebuilding. You would definitely need to see it up front and personal,and see just how extensive the rust issue is. I would primarily be concerned with pitting on the arbor shaft. The rest is cosmetic. I don't know about ever getting $5K for it restored. A 30" Oliver can be had for less than that.
It would appear that it has a Babbitt style bearing, with a drip oil cup. Nothing wrong it as long as the babbitt doesn't need to be repaired. If you do buy it, don't run it until you're confident of that bearing.

All in all though, 30" is a huge disc sander. You're not going to run past those every day. That's big.

[Darcy Warner]

I have a dual 37", it's a big girl.

[John Halsted]

I'll try to schedule a showing. I guess as long as the disc is flat, the bearings are ok, and the motor is good, it should be a good tool. I don't mind doing all the cosmetic work. I have no plans of restoring and selling it either.

I see what you're pointing out about the bearings. Actually Looks like there are two and two drip cups. If the shaft spins smoothly and doesn't have any play is there need to check into it any further?

No motor specs posted, and I still haven't heard back from the seller. I'm guessing/worried it'll be a 3 phase motor and I'll need to add a vfd to the cost.

[John Sincerbeaux]

There are just way too many machines available that are in way better shape than this machine. Don’t compromise. Be patient.
Found this Kindt Collins 24” for $1500. I painted and polished this. ZERO rust. 1966 year. 388979

[Mike Cutler]

I see what you're pointing out about the bearings. Actually Looks like there are two and two drip cups. If the shaft spins smoothly and doesn't have any play is there need to check into it any further?.

I would just pull the caps off the housings first. There may be additional shim material to take up for bearing wear between the two halves.
Hopefully everything is there and it works. The rust and a repainting might take a weekend of time. Good Luck.

[Marc Jeske]

I'm totally for Old Arn.... but...

IMHO - Pretty darn rough looking, too many unknowns.. could be a Pandara's Box..... AND seller sounds a little goofy overall...

The only good thing here is close proximity to inspect w no shipping freight costs.

It is absolutely 3 phase.

Check into it more, but probably I would keep looking.. Other fish in the sea.

"The rust and a repainting might take a weekend of time. Good Luck."

Gonna be a longggggggg weekend.

Rust and repaint is the least of your possible worries here.

Certainly, being not as common big 30", makes it more $, I'm just sayin it looks ridden hard and put away wet.

Marc

[Marc Jeske]

The condition it is in will make it impossible to check for runout.

So, it's a "Cat in a Sack" as my Dad would say.

Could have even been tipped over and majorly tweaked.

Just too scary for me.

Maybe... maybe... for $200 knowing it's a gamble.

And then, getting it to the point of checking runout is first order of business.

Marc

[Bill Dufour]

Where do you find 30" paper? I bet it costs a premium over 24"
It might be easier and cheaper to replace the bearings with modern pillow block ball bearings.
I am not seeing any dust collection hookups. Of course that may be buried in the piles.
Bill D.

[Darcy Warner]

Where do you find 30" paper? I bet it costs a premium over 24"
It might be easier and cheaper to replace the bearings with modern pillow block ball bearings.
I am not seeing any dust collection hookups. Of course that may be buried in the piles.
Bill D.

Abrasive suppliers, no problem finding 37" discs.
They are not horribly expensive, plus they last forever.

[Neal Meyers Jr]

I would look at the weight and not pay more then the scrap value. I love old tools but like Marc's father, "Your buying a Pig in a Poke" as my Grandfather would say. If I were to be in your shoes, I would look at the scrap value and that way you could recoup some of your investment if it is just trash.

[Will Boulware]

Here’s another vote in favor of old arn, but away from that one. 3 phase is easy. Babbitt bearings are nothing to be afraid of. But that sander is questionable, and the seller sounds like he’s hocked used Plymouth’s in a past life. Big disc sanders aren’t all that rare. I’d keep looking, assuming you have a real need for one.

[Marc Jeske]

Actually, that diameter is more rare.

Every more sq inch of face has benefits, but do you really need that big of one?

You May, WE don't know what you make.

And, Ya, ever since HS shop I have had a fascination w BIG disk sanders.

Not to hijack the tread, .......... But is a Disc what you need... ?? VS an "Edge" belt sander?

Oscillating is great, but can always put a shimming board under work if one has a Non oscillating less $ machine.

Just sayin, most folks, not all, but most do not need this large of a DISK sander.

I'm just sayin from the Human fact of getting over enthused when on search for a machine, particularly Old Beautiful Gorgeous American USA Made Old Arn.

I HAVE "been there" Myself.

Bought a Delta Rockwell 12/14 saw recently.

1 ph, ugly Bies, Brett Guard.

No door, OK overall, was running.

$500, + $400 shipping by Uship.

Waiting to get to speed when time.

Like overbidding at an auction sometimes.

ALWAYS more fish in the sea.

But, again, Local driving distance and putting eyes and hands on a machine is a $4-700 shipping and heartache AND (will the transporter drop the load ?? ) GOTTA do due diligence selecting shipper savings.

UShip is a great possible transporter I have used two times for sub 1000 lb stuff... 3/4 + cross 48 states, $400 - $550./

So, that is your one advantage here... being local.

I would, personally, with my knowledge, ... hope for more known names...State, or Kindt Collins, et al.


Just my opinions, I would LOVE, although do not NEED, a big Disc.

Romantic memories of High School Shop and State disk and oscill spindle sanders.

Marc

[jack forsberg]

My 30 inch is the least used machine. Mostly because the paper is not a consistent speed. Burns on the outside. I run it was 40 Grit Make some nice rasp . I much prefer the waterfall sander for large surfaces

[Mike Cutler]

I have a dual 37", it's a big girl.

Wow! I would ask what you sand on that, but the answer would be, whatever you want too. That's a big sander.

John
You really should go look at it.
It could be a "cat in a sack", as Marc put it.(I think that's going to be my new term for awhile.;)) It could also be a worthwhile investment in time, and money.
One thing about older machines is that they were designed to be repaired. New machines not so much. It may take a bit of work sometimes to repair one,but in the end you have something that was designed to perform a function first,not fit within a price point.
That's a pretty heavy duty machine, and barring being tipped over, as someone pointed out, it's a good bet that it can be restored fairly easily. There really isn't much to it. Stand, motor, bearing, shaft, and platter. The rest is cosmetic.
Maybe my estimate of a weekend to do the cosmetic work was a little lean, but if you already have the equipment to sandblast, prep, and paint, it won't take more than two.
Don't be put off by the babbitt bearings if they need replacement. They are ridiculously simple to pour. It's the prep and alignment that takes all of the time. It might cost you a couple hundred to re-pour them, but that is assuming that you have none of the tools, or a torch, and would have to buy everything to do it. Babbitts are stilled poured today, all over the world. It's not an arcane skill lost to time.
If you have a genuine need for a disc sander that big, I would definitely go check it out.

[Mel Fulks]

I think they are mainly used by pattern makers to put draft on vertical surfaces. That's why Kindt Collins sells them.

[Darcy Warner]

I think they are mainly used by pattern makers to put draft on vertical surfaces. That's why Kindt Collins sells them.

Probably most common use was for fitting segmented parts for larger turnings.

[Phillip Gregory]

My 30 inch is the least used machine. Mostly because the paper is not a consistent speed. Burns on the outside. I run it was 40 Grit Make some nice rasp . I much prefer the waterfall sander for large surfaces

Your disc is spinning too fast if you are getting burning near the outer edges with using a coarse sandpaper such as 40 grit. Slow down the disc and you will be much happier. There are a few ways to do this, depending on exactly what machine you have. I'd be surprised if your 30 inch machine isn't 3 phase, and you can slow down any 3 phase motor by connecting it to a VFD and running it on a lower frequency. Pretty much any 3 phase motor can be run at half its rated speed without cooling problems, and newer motors designed to be run on VFDs can have a much wider speed range. Cutting the disc speed in half would very likely fix the burning issue.

[Van Huskey]

Your disc is spinning too fast if you are getting burning near the outer edges with using a coarse sandpaper such as 40 grit. Slow down the disc and you will be much happier. There are a few ways to do this, depending on exactly what machine you have. I'd be surprised if your 30 inch machine isn't 3 phase, and you can slow down any 3 phase motor by connecting it to a VFD and running it on a lower frequency. Pretty much any 3 phase motor can be run at half its rated speed without cooling problems, and newer motors designed to be run on VFDs can have a much wider speed range. Cutting the disc speed in half would very likely fix the burning issue.

I had to giggle, OK I laughed out loud... Illuminating Jack about 3 phase and VFD is like explaining to Neil deGrasse Tyson there are other planets in the solar system besides our own.

[jack forsberg]

Your disc is spinning too fast if you are getting burning near the outer edges with using a coarse sandpaper such as 40 grit. Slow down the disc and you will be much happier. There are a few ways to do this, depending on exactly what machine you have. I'd be surprised if your 30 inch machine isn't 3 phase, and you can slow down any 3 phase motor by connecting it to a VFD and running it on a lower frequency. Pretty much any 3 phase motor can be run at half its rated speed without cooling problems, and newer motors designed to be run on VFDs can have a much wider speed range. Cutting the disc speed in half would very likely fix the burning issue.
The machines a Wadkin JTA Direct Motor Drive disk . Might be considered as good as the Collins master. Course the voltage on the three-phase machine is 600 me being in Canada. And I am of course running this off household with a rotary phase and step up transformer. I’m not smart enough to run transformers and VFD’s together but I wouldn’t bother slowing the speed of this one down. Mostly because it would be grossly expensive then secondly I prefer my VFD‘s and 240 V. She is 4 ponies So he could stand to lose a bit of speed on this explosive proof Motor.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvGjQX7dEY8&app=desktop

[David Kumm]

Great video and great machine. I'm a K-C guy but I don't see how anything could be better made than the Wadkin. Those old machines are like jewelry in how they were engineered. You always seem to find the stuff that is a step or three above the herd. Dave

[Phillip Gregory]

The machines a Wadkin JTA Direct Motor Drive disk . Might be considered as good as the Collins master. Course the voltage on the three-phase machine is 600 me being in Canada. And I am of course running this off household with a rotary phase and step up transformer. I’m not smart enough to run transformers and VFD’s together but I wouldn’t bother slowing the speed of this one down. Mostly because it would be grossly expensive then secondly I prefer my VFD‘s and 240 V. She is 4 ponies So he could stand to lose a bit of speed on this explosive proof Motor.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvGjQX7dEY8&app=desktop

The JTA according to an old Wadkin brochure I found on Vintage Machinery has a 4 hp, 8 pole motor (900 synchronous RPM, ~860 RPM in actual use) for the disc, which yields the same linear SFPM at the outer edge of the disk as a typical 15" disc sander driven by a four-pole (~1725 rpm) motor. It has 2/3 of the SFPM at the outer edge as a typical 20" disc sander being driven by a four-pole motor, which is the kind of disc sander I have (and it's not anywhere as neat as yours.)

I did some looking and you can get a 5 HP rated 600 volt VFD from one of the major vendors here in the US that I've seen mentioned here a lot (Automation Direct's GS2 drive) for under US$500. You already have 600 volt 3 phase from your RPC/transformer setup. As long as your voltages from the generated vs. "utility" legs of the RPC are reasonably close to each other, using that to feed into the VFD will work just fine. You may need some balancing capacitors on the VFD input if the voltages are significantly unbalanced. Some 600 volt VFDs (that cost more) can even take single-phase input (step up your 240 volt single phase to 600 V single phase) as long as you derate the VFD by 50% (use a 7 1/2 hp VFD.)

[jack forsberg]

The JTA according to an old Wadkin brochure I found on Vintage Machinery has a 4 hp, 8 pole motor (900 synchronous RPM, ~860 RPM in actual use) for the disc, which yields the same linear SFPM at the outer edge of the disk as a typical 15" disc sander driven by a four-pole (~1725 rpm) motor. It has 2/3 of the SFPM at the outer edge as a typical 20" disc sander being driven by a four-pole motor, which is the kind of disc sander I have (and it's not anywhere as neat as yours.)

I did some looking and you can get a 5 HP rated 600 volt VFD from one of the major vendors here in the US that I've seen mentioned here a lot (Automation Direct's GS2 drive) for under US$500. You already have 600 volt 3 phase from your RPC/transformer setup. As long as your voltages from the generated vs. "utility" legs of the RPC are reasonably close to each other, using that to feed into the VFD will work just fine. You may need some balancing capacitors on the VFD input if the voltages are significantly unbalanced. Some 600 volt VFDs (that cost more) can even take single-phase input (step up your 240 volt single phase to 600 V single phase) as long as you derate the VFD by 50% (use a 7 1/2 hp VFD.)
More than likely if I wanted to get a VFD and 600 V I’d have it made by the manufacture That makes the custom VFD’s I sale . The rotary phase converter I built is balance to within 2% On a five horse power motor. We don’t bother putting run caps to pre-balance the machine mostly because Motor are stupid. I sell custom VFD’s up to 35 hp single phase not derated . All voltages and we actually sell quite a few to the states ( over 100 this year alone ) I’d like to think my drives are pretty darn good And about half that cost to my clients . Besides we walk him through step-by-step regardless their experience


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlHRnbvPyog

[Matt Mattingley]

Jack. You know I like to keep you fine balance. You are electrically sound! Not everybody possesses the same skills you have.

What size service is feeding your shop?
What size RPC are you running?
How many SP amps do you have feeding your RPC?

Now, where did you hide those 1000v capacitors???:)

[Sam Beagle]

I would step away from that monster. I just picked up a very nice 24” max for 412 dollars. The deals are out there. Patience is the key

[jack forsberg]

Jack. You know I like to keep you fine balance. You are electrically sound! Not everybody possesses the same skills you have.

What size service is feeding your shop?
What size RPC are you running?
How many SP amps do you have feeding your RPC?

Now, where did you hide those 1000v capacitors???:)
Did you steel any of them LOL? I should have a NEMA 600 volt contactor I could wire in to the momentary start controls in a 2 wire control and see if the cans can speed up the start up time and hold the voltage better on the wild legs . there 30 UF and i have a few .

[Marc Jeske]

Even though I have no true need for one... I have always hankered for an Old Arn BIG disc.. Somehow State and Wadkin sound best.

That, and a State Spindle.

For now, I'll get by w my old Cman 9" disc and 6x48 sander... go to it constantly.

For around $175 value small investment, , it's pretty darn good.

Both metal and wood... If anything, that will be what I start a shop fire with.

Always careful about that.

The Good Old Days of JH andHS shop class, very early 70's.

Marc