The #140 trick is dead ...

[Derek Cohen]

.. long live the blue tape trick! :)


I've been marking and cutting dovetails where the pin- and tail boards are not square to one another. Holding the boards together to transfer tails to pins has been difficult.


I considered the "140 trick", which I first encountered about 15 years ago when Rob Cosman demonstrated it in one of his videos. This consists of a shallow rebate ("rabbet" for you who do not speak Australian or British English) on the edge of the tail board, and it is used to register the tails against the pins.


This method has since been taken up by many, and here is demonstrated by Chris Schwarz (off his blog) ...


https://www.popularwoodworking.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/DTrabbet.jpg


https://www.popularwoodworking.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/DTmarking.jpg


It's called the "#140 trick as Rob used a LN #140 skew block plane to plane the shallow rebate (actually shallower than that completed by Chris, above).


During the course of a video I put together recently (the worst video in the world, so don't ask), I have the following idea and actually created it on the spot. I loved the result, and so I have written it up below.


This is an alternative to the #140 trick. A rebate is unnecessary.


This is the tail board, along with cutting gauge and pin board marked with blue tape ..


https://s19.postimg.cc/wjmtm61dv/image.jpg


Set the cutting gauge to the depth of the tail. This may be done when marking, or later ...


https://s19.postimg.cc/t00vwd6dv/image.jpg


Now stretch three layers of blue tape across the base line. It really does not matter how exact you are (I'm rather casual here). All that matters is that the tape is over the line ...


https://s19.postimg.cc/a7p0stkab/image.jpg


Trim off the excess ...


https://s19.postimg.cc/sn9hq73jn/image.jpg


Now use the cutting gauge to trim the tape to the baseline ...


https://s19.postimg.cc/b9z7bcfyb/image.jpg


This is create a fine fence exactly at the baseline ...


https://s19.postimg.cc/qip4p4hcj/image.jpg


The fence acts in the same way as the "#140 trick", except that it may be peeled away afterwards and there is no altering of the dimensions to the board ...


https://s19.postimg.cc/6bbowtrkz/image.jpg


The blue tape on the pin board acts as a non-slip, and the fence is additive in stabilising the two together.


To aid in aligning the boards, I use a simple square made from wood ...


https://s19.postimg.cc/4jiq1wdcz/image.jpg


This is placed against the back of the pin board, and the tail board is square off ...


https://s19.postimg.cc/8sng43qwz/image.jpg


I have removed the square here, but it is not necessary to set it aside ...


https://s19.postimg.cc/cc9dtx1cj/10a.jpg


The blue tape trick is great when marking dark woods ...


https://s19.postimg.cc/j2pv3cw83/11a.jpg


Regards from Perth


Derek

[mike holden]

Brilliant!

[ken hatch]

Derek,

Good tick-tock. As a 140 user and believer I'll give blue tape a go on the next set of dovetails.

ken

[James Pallas]

Good idea Derek. What would us woodworkers do without blue tape and duct tape. Blue tape to mark up, duct tape to hold thinks together after the joints fail.
Jim

[Brian Holcombe]

Interesting approach. I've only ever lined up the corners of my gauge marks with the edge of the board. If it is slightly out it matters very little as the open ends of the tail board are what effect squareness most.

[Jim Koepke]

My feeling on the rebate/rabbet at the base line was it is too much extra work.

The blue tape trick is an interesting work around, but a lot of dovetails would go through a roll real fast.

Recently this trick came my way and was used in making a box out of firewood:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?259750

It uses a batten on the tail board to align to the pin board:

388830

It just occurred to me the batten could be beveled to hold the tail board at an angle to the pin board, just a thought.

jtk

[Simon MacGowen]

Derek,

While your original blue tape trick for laying out the dovetails is both clever and practical (I still forgot the name of the FW writer who uses the blue tape method a lot in his articles), your "new" blue tape trick is at best trying to reinvent the wheel. Your method relies on accurate placement of the tape as well as careful positioning and alignment of the matching board.

The #104 trick? You can do the same with a batten and a shoulder plane, but the method still requires setting up the plane, etc. Extra work as Jim pointed out. Unnecessary at all...not to mention you need a #104.

The best way under the sky to transfer tails to pins with the least fuss (if you use a jig) is this alignment jig made popular by British maker David Barron: https://www.woodworkersinstitute.com/furniture-cabinetmaking/techniques/workshop-jigs/workshop-wednesdays-dovetail-alignment-jig/

Barron's jig is fool-proof. And this not meant be rain on your parade. No extra plane and no extra tape, nor extra possibilities for (alignment or setting) errors.

Anyone who knows a system that is as fast and accurate as Barron's, please share it.

Simon

[Derek Cohen]

To put this post into context ...

I have never used the #140 trick" and doubt that I ever would. The current build, with the awkward drawer parts to align, forced me to find a way to aid in this regard. I do not envisage using the blue tape as a fence with a standard set up (boards which are square to one another). With the exception of using blue tape to transfer dovetail marks, and my Moxon vise, I have little interest in dovetailing aids.

The issues I have with the Barron jig - which is otherwise a nice idea - are that it is (a) one more jig to store (my little wooden square is more versatile and takes up little space), and (b) in recent years, many of the drawers I have built are curved or angled, and simply would not be helped by the Barron jig. I keep looking for aids to help with my projects. I pass them on with the thought that they may help someone else.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tom M King]

Derek is just using three layers of tape to form a fence on the drawer side. There is no accurate positioning required, because he cuts the "fence shoulder" with the marking gauge through the tape. I don't know that any method is faster than the other, including having to build a setup jig for the angled corners of his drawers. Planing a rabbet for the tails probably doesn't take any more time than the tape either, IF the corners were square, but just requires a different setup for marking the depth of the tails. In the end, the method used probably doesn't make a large percentage difference in the time required in building a piece of furniture. If there are many to build, all to the same corner angle, a jig would pay off.

[Simon MacGowen]

To put this post into context ...

(b) in recent years, many of the drawers I have built are curved or angled, and simply would not be helped by the Barron jig. I keep looking for aids to help with my projects. I pass them on with the thought that they may help someone else.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Agreed. Barron's is useful for transferring regular dovetails, not angled joinery work.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

The reference to the #104 trick which, like the Barron's jig, is for transferring regular dovetails, created a different impression. Derek has since clarified that his method is more for non-regular dovetails.

Simon

[Derek Cohen]

The reference to the #104 trick which, like the Barron's jig, is for transferring regular dovetails, created a different impression. Derek has since clarified that his method is more for non-regular dovetails.

Simon

I thought I said this in the first two sentences, above, but it must not have been clear enough and eluded everyone.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Simon MacGowen]

I thought I said this in the first two sentences, above, but it must not have been clear enough and eluded everyone.

Regards from Perth

Derek

This reminds me of a scientific study that found that we tend to take in sensory information and combine it with what we expect, and we extract meaning. That's also why we miss our own typos when we write.:(

Simon

[Mike Brady]

I get the blue tape method and think it has value, although it is another time-consuming step. I generally get better results if I tape the the pin board (second in my sequence to be cut) and mark with a sharp knife. However, the weakness in this method is also in that step. Look at the second-to-the-last photo above where the pin board and tape are being scored with the knife:
The profile of the tail board that is being transferred is the back (inside) of the tail board, not the show surface. If the tails were not sawed squarely, the joint will have gaps or tightness between the tails and pins. The tape makes the layout easier to see but it doesn't contribute to sawing squarely. If you take extra time after the ails have been cut to square those sawn surfaces as needed, then the transfer of profiles using the tape should minimize errors.

I dislike the Barron guide but it does help keeps things square and give good results on basic dovetail joints. I don't own one by the way.

[Brian Holcombe]

Derek,

While your original blue tape trick for laying out the dovetails is both clever and practical (I still forgot the name of the FW writer who uses the blue tape method a lot in his articles), your "new" blue tape trick is at best trying to reinvent the wheel. Your method relies on accurate placement of the tape as well as careful positioning and alignment of the matching board.

The #104 trick? You can do the same with a batten and a shoulder plane, but the method still requires setting up the plane, etc. Extra work as Jim pointed out. Unnecessary at all...not to mention you need a #104.

The best way under the sky to transfer tails to pins with the least fuss (if you use a jig) is this alignment jig made popular by British maker David Barron: https://www.woodworkersinstitute.com/furniture-cabinetmaking/techniques/workshop-jigs/workshop-wednesdays-dovetail-alignment-jig/

Barron's jig is fool-proof. And this not meant be rain on your parade. No extra plane and no extra tape, nor extra possibilities for (alignment or setting) errors.

Anyone who knows a system that is as fast and accurate as Barron's, please share it.

Simon

I just line up the baseline to the marked line and hold it there while I transfer tails to the pin board. It's fast and accurate, and I don't need to store a jig.

It's good practice for doing work like this:

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/fullsizeoutput_747.jpeg

The case sides are 84" tall and the top is 55" wide, the overall is 16" deep. I couldn't clamp either part in a vise to any worthwhile effect, let along use a jig. I clamped them to the side of my workbench then held the shorter of the two boards in place while I made my marks.

The dark lines you see there aren't gaps but pencil marks.

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/fullsizeoutput_749-1.jpeg

[Simon MacGowen]

Brian,

The difference between your method and the jig approach is this: You are good with your method through repeated uses/ experience, and therefore you can be fast and accurate; anyone using Barron's jig, on the contrary, needs little experience other than knowing to make sure the reference edge of the boards is tight against the jig's fence.

If you're to train someone to use your method, or someone after seeing your post wants to duplicate your method, you will eventually succeed and so will someone in the end. But...using the jig? It is almost self-explanatory, with little training.

By the way, for very large tail and pin boards, we don't need a larger alignment jig. Simply put a spacer block (same thickness of the jig) on the bench to support the tail. The pin board is then clamped to the tail on two sides.

As for storing the jig, my L-bracket jig is 6" wide x 12" x 12" (roughly). It is on a shelf, resting on its L-edge, taking up minimal space ((3/4" x 12")x2).

Is the jig worth making and using? I say yes, and you say no. That's healthy, because you and I are not sheepies (Trust me: they are all over the Internet!)

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

The profile of the tail board that is being transferred is the back (inside) of the tail board, not the show surface. If the tails were not sawed squarely, the joint will have gaps or tightness between the tails and pins.

Good point.

For a similar reason, the inside face of a board must be prepared (planed or sanded) before the joint is cut, otherwise, gaps may show if the board's thickness changes.

For the record, I have tried the blue tape for laying out, but my go-to method is still plain knife lines and pencil lines, aided by the alignment jig.

Simon

[James Pallas]

I cut these when Derek was starting his work just to see how hard it would be to make with miter cuts as opposed to straight cuts as Derek decided to use. They were done with just pencil lines and chiseled sockets. The tails are straight off the saw. No blue tape no 140 trick. It took an hour for me on the first angle and about thirty minutes at the other angle using the same tail board. I have always believed that you can use whatever method you need to satisfy yourself. Never even tried the 140 trick and definitely not Derek's use of blue tape because I knew nothing about it. Use whatever makes you comfortable. I use the least amount of tools that get the job done to my satisfaction. You should do the same IMO. I've done Brian's way for big stuff too.
Jim

[Simon MacGowen]

Use whatever makes you comfortable. I use the least amount of tools that get the job done to my satisfaction. You should do the same IMO.
Jim

aren't you contradicting yourself if the two "you" (bold mine) referred to the same person(s)?


as for using the least amount of tools, it depends. Sometimes, convenience or efficiency factors into what I use in a job. I could lay out with just one divider and one marking gauge, but it is not an efficient way for me and that is why I have a pair of each. Same for squares, including owning a saddle square although some insist they can use a regular square to do what a saddle can do just as fast (which of course is bull). On the other hand, I have only a handful of saws unlike the dozen(s?) some may have.

Simon

[James Pallas]

aren't you contradicting yourself if the two "you" (bold mine) referred to the same person(s)?


as for using the least amount of tools, it depends. Sometimes, convenience or efficiency factors into what I use in a job. I could lay out with just one divider and one marking gauge, but it is not an efficient way for me and that is why I have a pair of each. Same for squares, including owning a saddle square although some insist they can use a regular square to do what a saddle can do just as fast (which of course is bull). On the other hand, I have only a handful of saws unlike the dozen(s?) some may have.

Simon
Exactly what I said. If you want to use more gauges then by all means do so. In most cases I don't use a square cutting dovetails except to check the bottom of the socket. I cut the pins by eye and saw, clean up the pins and mark the tails from the pins. I use a gauge to mark base lines. I don't square across for the tails. Saw and eye. Are they perfect every time, no, a lot more often than not. About the same as when I used all kinds of tools. However you approach the work is up to you.
Jim

[Pat Barry]

I like Derek's blue tape idea. It is fast and efficient. I think its a very neat idea. You could cut quite a lot of dovetails with a roll of tape used as described. Obviously there are lots of ways to get the job done. Thanks Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Interesting approach. I've only ever lined up the corners of my gauge marks with the edge of the board. If it is slightly out it matters very little as the open ends of the tail board are what effect squareness most.

The angle of the intersection (of sides with drawer front), if out-of-square, will affect how well the drawer will sit flush to the floor (which may be the runners and drawer blade).

The longer the drawer sides, the more this will show up the slightest degree out of square.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/SofaTableAllTheWayToCompletion_html_4656025c.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/SofaTableAllTheWayToCompletion_html_m654e8fe9.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

I’m not advocating building drawers with sides out if square. I like everything as perfect as possible.

Rather it is the baseline itself that has the most effect on squareness, more so than the sides of the dovetails.

I try to be extremely precise in my language, re-reading my post I’m not quite understanding how what I wrote is interpreted as ‘build drawers out of square’.

[ken hatch]

I'm willing to try almost anything other than if on the face of it it doesn't make sense. The Barron jig looked plausible so I made one and used it for a few drawers. It worked ok, not a game changer but ok, if a little kludgy. So I used it to make another thinking maybe the first wasn't accurate enough for the full benefit. The second didn't change anything even it it was a little prettier. After reading this thread I looked around the shop for 'em thinking maybe I missed something but alas I expect they have long been firewood. Bottom line, use 'em if you got 'em but I think there are better, easier ways to mark pins from the tails.

Of course as always, YMMV.

ken

[Simon MacGowen]

... but I think there are better, easier ways to mark pins from the tails.

Of course as always, YMMV.

ken

Such as? I am always open to knowing better and easier solutions as long as they give me the same accurate results.

By the way, the concept of the alignment jig that Barron made popular is similar to or might have come from Robert Wearing's, well known for many of his bench aids and devices, in addition to his traditional woodworking book.

If the alignment jig is not properly made (base flat and square, and fence straight and square) or the stock is not properly prepared, poor alignment and hence marking results should not be blamed on the jig.

Barron teaches a dovetail class reguarly in his shop and his students all use his jigs to layout the pins. Many of his students had never cut a dovetail before they went to his class. The results spoke for themselves (Barron teaches them to use a magnetic dovetail guide to saw).

Simon

[Derek Cohen]

Brian, it's likely I have misunderstood you. Can you explain: "I've only ever lined up the corners of my gauge marks with the edge of the board. If it is slightly out it matters very little as the open ends of the tail board are what effect squareness most."

My post was to emphasise the importance of getting the pin and tails boards square to one another, however you do it.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Simon MacGowen]

Brian, it's likely I have misunderstood you. Can you explain: "I've only ever lined up the corners of my gauge marks with the edge of the board. If it is slightly out it matters very little as the open ends of the tail board are what effect squareness most."

My post was to emphasise the importance of getting the pin and tails boards square to one another, however you do it.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Now, this thread is getting more interesting...the kind that is not boring. We don't have to choose between boring and argumentative (or is it inflammatory?). The title of this thread also does its job: interesting people to come here and talk. Good job, Derek (on both your build and the titling).

Too bad Rob Cosman does not chime in anymore. I like his style of conviction and assertion (but not necessarily his marketing approach). Definitely not a sheepie. He would have come here to defend that his using a plane on the bench to transfer the tails and after cutting, a #140 to rabbet the joint was the best method (the Alan Peters's method).

Simon

[James Pallas]

I'm interested. If the face and the face edge are flat on a flat bench or they are square by using a fixture than all should be square. Explain to me what is different other than horizontal or verticle.
Jim

[Simon MacGowen]

I am not sure what your question is. I can only generalize that the jig allows two boards to match precisely and accurately square, that is, as precisely and squarely as the jig is made. No one has specified what the jig is poor at ("ok" gives little information about the jig or the result), and I have not seen a better method or jig. I have not been aware of any issues after using it as soon as I came across the Furniture & Cabinetmaking article.

For anyone to say your method -- whatever it is -- is excellent is one thing, but to say your method is better than the alignment jig, you need to support your assertion. I would accept anyone who says his or her method or jig is better than Barron's if they can show it. We all are not kindergarten kids and we should be able to make our informed judgment.

I have used but not owned many of the brand name dovetail saws. I only use the Veritas because they are the best for their prices and I have heard people saying they are not as good as LN or Gramercy, etc. I have even tried Rob Cosman's. Yes, the Veritas are not as good as those more expensive because the Veritas are in THEIR hands, not mine. I can cut dovetails blindfolded with any of those saws with the SAME results.

The point? Don't trash any jig until you know what is wrong: your technique, the jig you actually built and used, the stock you prepared, or the design of the jig.

I am still looking forward to hearing any good ideas that are better Barron's, and I will switch to the better one if I am convinced. I have no affiliation to Barron or to the things he sells. But I will call a spade a spade.

Simon

[Brian Holcombe]

Brian, it's likely I have misunderstood you. Can you explain: "I've only ever lined up the corners of my gauge marks with the edge of the board. If it is slightly out it matters very little as the open ends of the tail board are what effect squareness most."

My post was to emphasise the importance of getting the pin and tails boards square to one another, however you do it.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Basically my point is that the end grain abutments are what determine square with the greatest level of influence, like the shoulder on the tenon.

Yes, I want the rest of it accurate, but very minor inconsistencies at the long grain connections are going to have little impact when weighted against those of the end grain abutments. Very minor meaning that the knife lines touching the inside of the adjoining member should be accurate enough to transfer marks, if they’re not than your end grain abutments will not be accurate either.

I make very large art frames of flimsy 3/8” material that becomes very strong and rigid via joinery. If the connections aren’t square the frame will be twisted. I’ve never needed to do anything other than line up my marks and make sure my shoulders are accurate. That’s a 2” wide connection amplified by 48”. In a few hundred frames I’ve yet to have one with a twist to it.

[James Pallas]

Basically my point is that the end grain abutments are what determine square with the greatest level of influence, like the shoulder on the tenon.

Yes, I want the rest of it accurate, but very minor inconsistencies at the long grain connections are going to have little impact when weighted against those of the end grain abutments. Very minor meaning that the knife lines touching the inside of the adjoining member should be accurate enough to transfer marks, if they’re not than your end grain abutments will not be accurate either.

I make very large art frames of flimsy 3/8” material that becomes very strong and rigid via joinery. If the connections aren’t square the frame will be twisted. I’ve never needed to do anything other than line up my marks and make sure my shoulders are accurate. That’s a 2” wide connection amplified by 48”. In a few hundred frames I’ve yet to have one with a twist to it.
it appears you are both working towards the same end. Working off the base line. I like to make certain, as well as I can, that the inside surfaces of the pin and tail boards are good and the end of the tail board is true to the face edge if I'm going to use a marking gauge from that edge. I'll use a square from the face edge to mark the base line also. I'm very careful not to square the tail board to the gauge line on the drawer face. Thanks for sharing your methods. There is always more to learn.
Jim

[steven c newman]

Starting to sound like.."How many ways are there...to split a Blonde hair?"

Don't have time for jigs.....tape costs too much, takes to much time to set up. Tend to cut and go....
388930388931
Like Brian..no gaps, those are the pencil lines left behind....

[Simon MacGowen]

Don't have time for jigs.....tape costs too much, takes...

I have two shooting boards...indispensable for my precision work. I also have a crosscut-sled on my tablesaw...also for precision work. I use jigs because I don't have time...for imprecise work.

Simon

[steven c newman]

Precision work.....with something that can expand and contract, depending on how humid the weather is......Roh-Kay, Raggy..we'll go with that theory...LOL...

Use whatever crutch you desire.....if that is what you need to work....

[Jim Koepke]

Just because all the wood was square to start doesn't mean the finished item will be square if one doesn't bother to take the appropriate steps.

But if the wood isn't square to start it is almost certain the finished item will not be square.

Even with a perfectly square cut my work might get a swipe or two on the shooting board to clean off the fuzzies.

jtk

[Pat Barry]

Would someone please post a picture of the Barron style jig. Also a picture of this jig as used with the two boards for dovetailing? Thanks

[Simon MacGowen]

Would someone please post a picture of the Barron style jig. Also a picture of this jig as used with the two boards for dovetailing? Thanks

https://davidbarronfurniture.blogspot.com/2013/12/happy-customer.html?m=1

On how to make one, see the link given in one of my earlier posts.

Or, get his article that was published in Oct. 2010 (F&C), the same year I started using such a "crutch."

Simon

[Vincent Tai]

Precision work.....with something that can expand and contract, depending on how humid the weather is......Roh-Kay, Raggy..we'll go with that theory...LOL...

Use whatever crutch you desire.....if that is what you need to work....

The point is to let nice and precise pieces expand and contract together like the sides of a drawer or a dovetail box. But you know that. Some people like their edges to be flush and in plane with the rest in most work, for symmetry and general precision to be apparent. I'm in that camp. Precision doesn't always mean whipping out a granite plate and a set of squares 0.00001 something tolerance. A shooting board and crosscut sled are pretty basic and aren't crutches. I don't own a table saw but if I did I would appreciate having a cross cut sled immensely.

Back to dovetailing discussion:

I'm an intermediate level woodworker still and I do a lot of things cut and go. I can appreciate the Barron jig though mine all sit somewhere with wood balancing precariously on top ( I should dig it out and just use it really) and this blue tape trick will definitely be used for any funky angle stuff. I did try laying down one piece of blue tape along the baseline of tails a few years ago. It was enough to help in the transfer of tails (if your work is flat enough) but for normal square stuff it wasn't necessary. My go to is what Brian does but sometimes I do something similar with Derek's wooden square, albeit I use the head of a normal square and just register it along the edge of the pin board and make sure the tail board sits flush or close enough against the head of the square. I never pare through (western) dovetails anymore and it is too easy to pare something out of square so I saw right next* (perhaps into is the more appropriate term) to a knife line and try not to leave evidence it was ever there.
388974



With normal stuff like below its fairly efficient to just match up your lines and push stuff flush against a square head. Shooting board makes for nice accurate stock to work with.

388973388971388972388978



However with the stuff below; well I can only wish Derek wrote about tape and other tips a few years ago when I started this box with Nejiri Arigata joints. All sides slope inwards; I think my design teacher had given me the challenge of trying to cut this sort of joinery on sloped boards in place of whatever was usually on a Viking style chest. I was 16 and only had one plane, one disposal blade saw and some big box store chisels at the time. I did all the stock prep on a rickety table with that one plane. I used a 15$ protractor that didn't lock very well for all the angles. It worked but obviously turned out with gaping gaps and looked pretty nasty.
This is the least ugly corner.
388970

That same year I actually cut a few of these Japanese dovetails but with the pieces joining at crazy angles (like Dereks but much more acute and with the shoulders cut at those crazy angles); the plan was to have a box made with these Nejiri Arigata joints coming in at crazy angles to form a something like a 64 point star. Would've been a cool box and I proved the joinery worked in my design brief but it would've taken eons at my skill level then to get it done and it wouldn't be pretty. Making a few joints to form 3 points of a star took days. I wish I didn't clean house with most of my photos. These angles would've really caused a laugh. A real prime example of dreaming too big when you're a kid. I have gotten much better at these joints but I've sworn to not let anymore escape the charcoal bin until there are no gaps at all.

Props to Derek for doing this angled work 48(?) times. I would've cracked a few scotches too many each session.

On a side note can anyone tell me why some of my photos upload sideways? If I flip them upside down like above they stay upside down but thats just annoying.

Thanks,

Vince

[Kees Heiden]

The upside down thing is a very annoying treat from the Iphone. It saves the original orientation in the jpg file. You can open it in MS paint first, rotate it how you like and save under another name. That usually works but is a lot of extra work.

[Simon MacGowen]

Precision work.....with something that can expand and contract, depending on how humid the weather is......Roh-Kay, Raggy..we'll go with that theory...LOL...

Use whatever crutch you desire.....if that is what you need to work....

Steven means no harm --his past posts confirmed this. He wasn't really belittling people who use jigs but he feels strongly that he can work with no jig (or minimal? -- in a strict sense, even a screw on the bench for moulding work could be considered a jig), and why not others.

He is just playing with stronger words; we all do sometimes...being sarcastic or have a little fun.

Who wants to go to a dead boring blog or forum after all...not me for sure.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

Vince
That is no intermediate-level dovetail work! I have seen both Rob Cosman's and Paul Sellers's work up close, and they will both agree with my assessment. The only better/consistent ones may be the machine-cut ones, provided one is skilled in using such a jig (no matter what dovetail jig it is, there is a learning curve, a deep one I can tell you from experience).

Simon

[Vincent Tai]

The upside down thing is a very annoying treat from the Iphone. It saves the original orientation in the jpg file. You can open it in MS paint first, rotate it how you like and save under another name. That usually works but is a lot of extra work.

I use Macs but I think Preview can do the same thing. Thanks for the tip.




Steven means no harm --his past posts confirmed this. He wasn't really belittling people who use jigs but he feels strongly that he can work with no jig (or minimal? -- in a strict sense, even a screw on the bench for moulding work could be considered a jig), and why not others.

He is just playing with stronger words; we all do sometimes...being sarcastic or have a little fun.

Who wants to go to a dead boring blog or forum after all...not me for sure.

Simon

I haven't been around long so I'll take your word for it and have edited my post.



That is no intermediate-level dovetail work! I have seen both Rob Cosman's and Paul Sellers's work up close, and they will both agree with my assessment. The only better/consistent ones may be the machine-cut ones, provided one is skilled in using such a jig (no matter what dovetail jig it is, there is a learning curve, a deep one I can tell you from experience).

Simon

Thanks Simon! My shop teacher has a habit of showing every new grade 9 class a Rob Cosman dvd. Unfortunately my grade 9 year I had a different teacher who didn't show the dvd. That was a year full of sanding and using wood filler. Happily next year Design was an option and I met my design teacher. My design teacher took a few courses of Cosman's when Cosman use to teach at my local polytechnic institute. I can't remember his exact words apparently Cosman use to say something about 10000 dovetails, unfortunately I can't really remember the context but I think you can understand what Cosman might've been trying to say. In Grade 10 when I had my usual shop teacher back he let me have access to a bin full of Veritas saws and gauges and some nicer chisels. I picked it up fairly quickly and could saw with both hands within a few days (long story about being raised right handed but was born left-handed) but it took constant working in the shop at school and home over the next 3 years for stuff to really zero in. Unfortunately most of the rest of my skills are pretty lacking.

I use to really want to make a wicked dovetailing jig on the table saw but after cutting them by hand that desire faded. It's been a couple years since I've had access to a good router, table saw, or any power tool (except for a drill press and bench grinder) and I couldn't see myself using a dovetailing jig in the future. I prefer pins slim (sometimes to the point of the saw plate thickness) that aren't possible with machinery (at least I think they aren't, I'm not on top of my power tool game obviously) and even on carcass work with more bigger pins I can zip through them pretty easily. Who knows though, maybe I'll go and make a jig or buy a jig one day. I guess I'll be chasing that Cosman level where his slim pins and dovetails look made by a 10k CNC with an alien technology bit. Might be easier to do with a jig and an alien tech router bit. I've got the rest of my life to try and get near. Still won't be able to reach that by the time I die I bet.

Vince

[Derek Cohen]

Vince, those are superb dovetails! Very far from intermediate level.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Vincent Tai]

Vince, those are superb dovetails! Very far from intermediate level.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thank you Derek!

Vince