About to throw jointer in the river

[John Vollrath]

I'm at my wits end with my jointer right now. I've owned this older Grizzly 1018 8" for a few years, using it off and on. I built a roubo workbench with it 2 years ago and it did very well. The past few months I've barely done any woodworking because it has caused so much frustration. I don't know if it's because of the spiral cutterhead I installed in January, maybe?

The issue: The cut is tapering off at the end of the board. It's very obvious listening to it; you can hear the cut being less deep at the end of the board. You can clearly see the board lifting off the infeed table as you get to back half of the board.

Last week I calibrated the outfeed table parallel to the infeed table as best I could with my veritas 50" straight edge. I used my dial indicator as best I could to shim the cutterhead blocks to be parallel to the infeed table (I found this a bit difficult with grizzly's spiral cutterhead because you have to keep guessing TDC for each cutter). I set the cutters as best I could to ~0.003" above the outfeed table.

If this machine was flammable I would have already set it on fire.

Please help. Advice? Anyone in WNC want to lend a hand?

John

[Dave Richards]

Is it possible the outfeed table is a wee bit high?

[David Kumm]

Sounds like outfeed is drooping relative to infeed. Take a long extruded level-6-8' and put it on the outfeed. Raise infeed and check with feeler gauges close to head and at farthest end. Dave

[Matt Day]

I’d first verify that the outfeed table is flat, or within a few thou. Check straight and diagonals.

I started writing a whole bunch, then realized I was basically copying this video from the woodwhisperer.
https://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/videos/jointer-setup/

[Kevin Jenness]

The previous responses cover most of the possible issues; outfeed table flatness, height relative to knife cutting circle and infeed/outfeed coplanarity and you mentioned one more, parallelism of the cutterhead and outfeed table. Take your time to check each one accurately. I assume you have a set of feeler gauges as well as an accurate straightedge.

Start with checking the tables for flatness. More than .002" deviation can cause a problem, especially if the outfeed table is concave. It may not be cost effective to correct by surface grinding or hand scraping if that is an issue.

Next, check that the tables are in plane. Your 50" straightedge should be long enough for this purpose, but longer is better. If that is a problem you can try to correct it by shimming the outfeed table ways or adjusting the tightness of the gibs on both tables. This is an adjustment that can be done more easily with a parallelogram style machine.

Now check the cutterhead relative to the outfeed table. Set your straightedge across the far end of the table and the cutterhead opening and rotate the cutterhead so that it lifts the straightedge. Measure the maximum gap under the straightedge at the table lip at each end of the cutterhead and shim accordingly.

If the tables are flat and coplanar with each other and the cutterhead then the machine should work if the outfeed table is level with or slightly (.001-.002") below the cutting circle. Set it close to 0 and make a test cut on the edges of two boards as long as your outfeed table. Mate the edges. If there is a gap between the center of the boards and/ or a snipe at the ends, raise the outfeed table in .001" steps. If the boards are convex, lower the outfeed. If after all this you cannot get accurate consistent results, trust your gut and throw the jointer in the river.

[Van Huskey]

Sounds like outfeed is drooping relative to infeed. Take a long extruded level-6-8' and put it on the outfeed. Raise infeed and check with feeler gauges close to head and at farthest end. Dave

Dave has got it, assuming your technique hasn't changed the end of the outfeed table is lower than right at the knives. As you slide a board down it the wood at the knives is getting higher and higher.

[Brad Shipton]

First off what type of cut error are we talking about? Clearly visible gaps between boards or something very small? You need to measure to the end of the shaft somehow and not cutters. Measuring at the tips of cutters or the cutter body will not work for typical tolerances one would aim for setting up a jointer.

This appears to be your typical style jointer with dovetail slides. Assuming it cut correctly before the new cutterhead was installed and you did not mess any of that up when you changed out the head I do not think you are far from fixing this. I would not give up.

[Bill Orbine]

Any nicks in the cutter head will magnify the problem. Even dull cutters is a problem. But you did just install the head back in January and the inserts should be fine. I suspect your new cutterhead produces a scalloped surface finish similar to the Byrd head. The outfeed table should be set just below to the lowest cutting point of the head by a couple thousandth. This assuming the jointer is true (flat, tables parallel )

[Simon MacGowen]

I could feel your frustration. Your sharing reminds me of another thread from someone asking for advice whether he should upgrade his saw fence and buy a jointer, or get a better saw (or something like that). Many responses told him to go ahead and spend money on a fancy sawfence on a Ridgid contractor saw and a jointer. I cautioned the poster against getting a jointer since he already owns a thickness planer, and pointed out the jointer is not a simple machine to master, not to mention that set-up and tuning issues can be quite challenging.

Simon

[glenn bradley]

You can clearly see the board lifting off the infeed table as you get to back half of the board.

Joiner are one of our simplest and potentially most frustrating machines to judge by the number of threads on the subject. Your statement above clearly indicates a fouled feed path. When the material is lifting off the infeed table is the balance of the material fully supported on your outfeed table? If not, add some external support (roller stand or whatever) to assure the plane of the outfeed table extends far enough to support the length of the material for the full cut.

This shows another type of fouled feed path but, is cured the same way so you can get the idea.

388733

Similar problems can occur if your infeed is too short. If your material is not fully supported by the infeed table, add external support. For a jointer to work correctly the material has to feed consistently past the cutterhead. If the cut does not provide a fully jointed surface any deviations will translate into a fouled feed path if not properly supported. Like I said, they are super simple machines and not smart enough to control things that are not engaged on their reference surfaces. External supports take care of that for you.

[Howard Pollack]

I just went through a rigorous jointer tune-up/set-up. The very methodical, clear and sensible instructions are in John White's book entitled something like "The care and maintenance of shop machines". I recommend it very strongly. Follow the instructions carefully and patiently and you will surely straighten out whatever problems you are having. A most excellent book. -Howard

[Patrick Walsh]

Enitially I was thinking the outfeed table sounded to be a bit low in relation to the knives. That was till you mentioned how you had the knives set to the the outfeed table.

I second Dave’s suggestion that maybe the outfeed table is dropping at the trailing edge?

Jointers can be soooooo frustrating. My first jointer was brand new and fairly expensive and not setup properly. Being my first jointer I was in no position to muck with it.

That was about 3-5 years ago now I think? I have since taken a job in a cabinet shop that has been through two crap jointers. The first a 8” Oliver “not the old Oliver, the new blue Oliver” then a Casadei.

Being forced to use both machines for extended periods of time and having to make them work good enough was a real crash course in jointer setup. I still probably stink at it.

[Don Jarvie]

Why did you need to shim the cutterhead? Is the shimmed side giving you all of the issues? The tables need to be set off the cutterhead so now you need to shim the tables.

[Randy Henry]

I had the same problem when I put a Byrd head in my DJ-20. It went away when I set the outfeed table even with the cutters.

[John K Jordan]

...methodical, clear and sensible instructions are in John White's book entitled something like "The care and maintenance of shop machines". I recommend it very strongly....

Thanks for the recommendation, I ordered one just now. (Amazon even offered some kind of coupon discount)
Care and Repair of Shop Machines: A Complete Guide to Setup, Troubleshooting, and Maintenance https://www.amazon.com/Care-Repair-Shop-Machines-Troubleshooting/dp/156158424X

Can't have too many reference and how-to books. Well, maybe when I run out of space in my shop library shelves.

JKJ

[John Vollrath]

I appreciate everyone’s sympathy in these trying times. Fortunately, yesterday my new hobby (traditional archery) arrived in the mail, so I had a good reason to pause the jointer tinkering.


It sounds like my understanding of setting up this baby is pretty spot on. In order to avoid more confusion, I started from the beginning with measurements. The indeed table is pretty flat, with a .0015” dip in the middle (front to back), and the outfeed table is similar, perhaps .002” in the middle. Both seem pretty in spec to me.


I then took to double checking parallelism. One thing I’ve struggled with in measuring this is using the feeler gauges under the straightedge on the far end of the outfeed table. Since that end of the straight edge is far from the support, I found it difficult to discern whether the feeler gauge was fitting, or actually raising the straight edge. I decided to whip out my magnetic dial indicator to help me see if the feeler gauge was raising the straight edge.


https://i.imgur.com/fadFQmG.jpg?1
Here's how it worked with the 11mil feeler gauge (you can see the feeler gauge raised it 1-2mil):
https://i.imgur.com/3eYDtp9.jpg
And here's it with the 10mil feeler gauge:
https://i.imgur.com/SCN3BJ3.jpg

So after doing this in all four corners of the outfeed table, I found the edges closest to the cutterhead to have 13mil clearance, and the rear edges to have 10mil clearance.

Before continuing further (next I would measure the cutterhead being level with the infeed table), is this 3mil tolerance acceptable? Should I shim the outfeed table to raise the cutterhead end a tad?
Also, do you think it's accurate to use the straightedge like this? The veritas 50" straightedge is pretty heavy, and I've always wondered if having it extend so far from it's support point would have it sag?

[Kevin Jenness]

I am not understanding your use of the straightedge. Are you registering the short end of the bar on a short section of the infeed table? If both tables have a dip in the center, why don't you rest the ends of the straightedge on the ends of the outfeed table and measure the gap below the overhang to the infeed table?

This is where a straightedge that is as long as the jointer can be helpful, as you can assess overall parallellism without being thrown off by the table deviations. Also, I see that the spec for the Lee Valley straightedge is +/- .003" so you are doing some guesswork from the start as to the table flatness. I know that many people are able to adjust jointers adequately with extruded aluminum levels, but I have never regretted having a 6' steel bar qualified by a certified inspection shop to .001" for this kind of work. Maybe it's overkill, but if you could rent or borrow one you might get some different measurements.

I would be wary of using a dial indicator on the rounded top surface of that bar.

Let's say that your measurements are correct and that the far end of the outfeed droops .003" from the plane of the infeed. Looking at a picture of the 1018 it appears that the inclined ways are about 8" long while the tables are about 30". A .001" shim at the bottom of the ways would kick up the table end about .004" in theory, and that might do the trick. Or it might be too much, but experimentation will tell.

This demonstrates a weakness of this jointer design. If the (well seasoned cast) tables are accurately ground after assembly to the base they should come from the factory coplanar and stay that way. If not, the possible adjustments by shimming the inclined ways are gross at best.

Have you checked the tightness of the gib screws? if the upper ones are loose that could cause a table end droop.

If the jointer worked well prior to swapping out the cutterhead, it is hard to see why the tables need adjustment other than outfeed table height. If the cutters are not parallel to the tables then shimming the pillow blocks and adjusting the outfeed height should restore the situation. Use a straightedge and feeler gauges rather than a dial indicator for this assessment.

[Mikail Khan]

Does this jointed produce an edge that is not straight?

If it gives straight you a straight edge on the jointed side you are ok.

How much you take off the back half of a board could be as a result of the board or technique. Bowed boards should be jointed with the bow down (front and back touching).

MK

[Matt Day]

You might have a severe case of analysis by paralysis. A straight edge, feeler gauge, and dial indicator - new one to me.

They’re called feeler gauges right? So if you feel resistance when under the straight edge, that’s where to stop. You shouldn’t need to shove it under so hard you lift the straight edge up.

I suggest taking a break from it for a week or so, coming back and starting fresh. The woodwhisperer’s video I linked to is a great instruction, as is Bob Vaughn’s Classic one here:
https://youtu.be/VRnrWOwun68

Don’t over complicate it. But I know how crusting it can be sometimes.

[johnny means]

Any nicks in the cutter head will magnify the problem. Even dull cutters is a problem. But you did just install the head back in January and the inserts should be fine. I suspect your new cutterhead produces a scalloped surface finish similar to the Byrd head. The outfeed table should be set just below to the lowest cutting point of the head by a couple thousandth. This assuming the jointer is true (flat, tables parallel )

Will this idea ever go away? What is the lowest cutting point if a jointer's depth of cut can be adjusted?

[glenn bradley]

Assuming the tables are already coplaner the quick and easy way to set outfeed height that I have seen is:

Lower the outfeed table below the cut height and make a cut that extends over the outfeed table surface as shown in the top image of the diagram. Hold the material in place and shut off the machine.

388820

Raise the outfeed table till it touches the cut surface as shown in the bottom image of the diagram. You're done.

It seems all too easy to get lost in the woods with these machines. If the difference between highest and lowest spots on the table is a few mil I'm sure you are within tolerances of the manufacturer. Out favorite measuring stick is the result and you are getting poor results.

I don't know that we have confirmed that you are using a board no longer than your infeed as a test board. This will assure your material is fully supported and that you and the machine are in control of the cut. Things to help you keep your sanity while making test cuts:
- nice slick, waxed tables and fence
- the board is not longer than the infeed
- the board is not convex (belly) side down
- pressure on the material at the infeed is only sufficient to control the material, not excessive
- pressure and feed effort is shifted to the outfeed as soon as there is sufficient material leaving only controlling pressure at the infeed
-- the freshly cut surface is your reference surface
-- pressure on the outfeed is hand over hand in the same basic area of the table

Consistency during each test cut will yield results that can be compared. A slightly different method for each pass can yield varied results, wastes your time and increases frustration. The good news is that once you've got it set, it should work consistently for a very long time.