Dining table advice

[Zac wingert]

I am new to woodworking, about six months deep, and I am going to build a dining table for my family. I just finished this table for someone else as a practice exercise. It started as rough lumber from the local hardwood seller. Made from poplar, it’s roughly 60x20x30. The joinery is just pocket holes as I feel to green to attempt mortise and tenon with my experience level and tools I own. The person I am giving it to is using it’s a counter, if anything. Any advice or questions are appreciated. Thank you.

https://sawmillcreek.org/blob:https://sawmillcreek.org/8854f30a-0a09-4d01-97dd-c4672a93cd7f

[Wade Lippman]

As long as they can't be seen, or are filled, there is nothing wrong with pocket screws.
Poplar though is very soft and won't hold up well as a table. Neither is it terribly attractive.

And make sure you account for seasonal wood movement.

[Stan Calow]

Start with a good set of plans. There are subtleties to design, joinery and proportion that its best to follow an existing tested design than to wing it or modify. What I keep finding out, is when I start adjusting the plan, that there usually was a reason why it was designed that way in the first place.

[Jim Becker]

Poplar though is very soft and won't hold up well as a table. Neither is it terribly attractive.

I'll offer that that is a very subjective view. While it's true that Tulip Poplar isn't as hard as many other hardwoods, it's not "soft", per se. There are tons of real antiques made from poplar from back in the early times of the US that live on today and look beautiful, even after hard use. Folks back then used what was available and in many areas...including my backyard...poplar is the dominate species. As to the look...it's got a very nice regular grain, a small pore structure, takes dye well and finishes up beautifully. I've made many pieces of furniture from it. Yes, when fresh cut, the heartwood has a greenish hue, but that browns out quickly with oxidation. Some boards have mineral staining and those obviously should be avoided for "show" components, but are perfectly useable for hidden structure and utility use.

OP, for a dining table, you're really going to want a strong structure to support it because of the way folks use tables. They lean on them and move them and do all kinds of things that place stress on the joinery. So I'll recommend you use your project as a next step in the learning process. Pocket screws are a great (and fast) method for assembling many things. I've used them often for smaller pieces, such as end-tables, but for a dining table, you need and want something that interlocks the base together in a very strong way. Whether that's traditional mortise and tenon or the easier to do loose tenon method (route mortises on both sides and use a separate tenon to join the two sides), you'll probably be happier long term.

I agree with Wade about wood movement. That's largely going to come into play with the method you use to mount the table surface to your base. The table surface will expand across the grain in a meaningful way, so you need to insure that it can move while still staying fastened to the base.

[Tony Leonard]

Great choice for a project. You'll get to enjoy it with your family at every meal. Good idea to practice too! One of my first big projects was a dining room table. I made mine out of cherry. There is a lot of good resource out there on making tables. Check out Woodsmith Shop online. They have done several and they present the techniques very well - especially for a beginner. Another good place to look at is tablelegs.com (I bought my legs there before I had a lathe - might even be articles for downloading there?).

One of the best tips is gluing up the top two boards at a time. Breadboard ends are nice, but they are a bit tricky. Someone already mentioned accounting for movement - very important for such a wide surface! One thing I have seen and wished I had done was to add drawers in the skirt. Nice wide ones for place mats, coloring books, etc. That would add some complication to the design though. Oh, regardless of how careful you are, the joints will need leveling to some degree. Might be a good time to learn about a hand plane. Thickness is important in a top. So, don't be afraid to leave some rough patches on the bottom. Especially when using long/wide boards, if you try to get them 'perfect' on both sides, you'll sacrifice a lot of thickness (unless you start with really thick boards, of course!). Study your grain patterns before you commit. You'll be looking at this big surface for years!

If you stick with pocket holes, I would add some corner braces for stability.

That's about all I got for now.

[Carlos Alvarez]

I just built a small ladder from poplar, and I was pleasantly surprised at how easy it is to work, and how solid the end result is. Much simpler than a table obviously, but it's a material I'll end up using again. I pretty much only work with exotics but I liked this stuff.

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[Robert Engel]

As long as they can't be seen, or are filled, there is nothing wrong with pocket screws.
Poplar though is very soft and won't hold up well as a table. Neither is it terribly attractive.

Zac,

Sorry but I have to disagree with both these statements. By themselves pocket screws are probably the weakest table construction joinery, specifically leg attachment. You need to add glue blocks and a diagonal brace with a lag screw. The issue with table legs of all kinds is the leg getting hit by a vaccuum cleaner, or Uncle Buck's size 13 ;-).

I think one of the simplest, best ways for a beginner is to use dowels. They don't have to be hidden, there is nothing wrong with exposed dowels in a table leg if done with symmetry and carefully.

As far as poplar, like Jim said, it depends on what type poplar you're dealing with. I've seen clear (unstained) poplar dyed that you would be hard pressed to tell wasn't either cherry or walnut. I think it was Charles Neil.

I would recommend experimenting with a dye stain and see what you come up with!!


And make sure you account for seasonal wood movement..

Absolutely. You cannot fasten a board across the grain of the top because it doesn't allow for wood movement. Use any of the various methods for this (figure 8's, clips, slots and blocks, etc.) - But DO NOT use pocket screws.

[Stan Calow]

OP, for a dining table, you're really going to want a strong structure to support it because of the way folks use tables. They lean on them and move them and do all kinds of things that place stress on the joinery.

This is a great point. Someone told me once that sooner or later a table will be stood on, or sat on, by one or more people, and needs to be stronger than just for its intended pur

[andy bessette]

...The joinery is just pocket holes...
https://sawmillcreek.org/blob:https://sawmillcreek.org/8854f30a-0a09-4d01-97dd-c4672a93cd7f

Avoid using pocket holes (ugh!) if you ever hope to learn fine woodworking.

[Carlos Alvarez]

I'm just learning to really use pocket holes. They are fine. Convenient, fast, reliable. The only thing that matters is how the end product looks and functions. Worrying about what's inside it when it has no effect on the end result is crazy.

[Roger Marty]

Dowels are nearly as easy as pocket screws and should be way stronger

[Brian Holcombe]

bridle joints are very useful for table bases, they’re easy to cut with basic tools and they’re strong.

I made some early projects with pocket screws and pocket dowels, but they’re not strong by comparison to traditional joinery. I don’t consider them reliable for something like a dining table, but it depends on the engineering as much as the joinery.

[Floyd Mah]

There are many comments here on the fastening techniques that Zac might have considered, but I haven't seen the table design. If I were dedicated to using pocket screws, I can come up with different designs that pocket screws would work very well on (dodecahedron anyone?), but a table top plus four legs without an apron could be very unstable if there weren't a better base like a trestle (have to laugh, because I considered a top + 4 legs decades ago when I first started). By the way, I have a piece of imported furniture where the carved top is made of several planks fastened together with pocket screws (hand-cut holes) that has held up well. The rest of the construction is crap otherwise. Might be better if Zac presented the rest of his plan and then the participants can give him advice on how to make the best choices.

[Zac wingert]

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[Zac wingert]

Thank you everyone for the help.

I have have no intention of using poplar for the dining table. It was for practice. I live in Hawaii and got enough curly mango to for the project.

I guess I was basically asking about joinery. I realize pocket holes are not the choice here, it is what I am comfortable with and am looking for suggestions for the next best step. I like the doweling suggestion. I’d like to use M&T. I have a DeWalt 7480 that won’t take a dado, and only have a compact router, no table. I saw a video of M&T with the mortise cut with a forstner bit and chisel and the tenon with handsaw. Any thoughts?

I’m probably gonna stick with shaker style. I built a good tapering jig and am comfortable with it. But not dead set. Built a couple small shaker tables out of koa and pine. The poplar and koa are in the pics above.

Thank you everyone for the help. I’m new to this. And this is my first post.

[Zac wingert]

I should also add that because I am in Hawaii I don’t think movement due to seasons should be a problem. I could be wrong though. The temperature doesn’t really change all year, it could average slightly cooler during certain times of the year, but it’s a matter of about 5 degrees f.

[Dave Richards]

It's actually the humidity, not temperature that has the largest impact on seasonal movement of wood. You don't have much of a RH swing throughout the year, either.

Average relative humidity (%) for Hilo, Hawaii
Daily AM PM
72 January 78 66
71 February 77 65
73 March 79 66
74 April 80 68
73 May 78 67
72 June 78 65
74 July 80 67
74 August 80 68
73 September 79 67
74 October 79 69
76 November 81 70
74 December 80 68
74 Annual 80 68

[Floyd Mah]

Thanks for the photos. I would definitely go with mortise and tenon joinery. You have nice materials to work with and it would be a shame to do anything other than traditional joinery. M&T joinery is not hard to learn and all you need is a chisel and square and then practice. If you want to go higher tech, then you add a drill to remove waste. Many instructional videos on the net. Greatest satisfaction after you are done. Ian Kirby (as far as I can recall) wrote on doing dovetails that you start with two 4' boards and you make dovetail joints, then cut them off, and repeat until you are out of wood. I think M&T joinery is very similar.

[Jacob Mac]

M&T joinery is way more accessible than you might think. And if you have a router and a table saw, you can already do it.

There are millions of videos on how to do it, but here is one from popular woodworking showing how to make a mortising jig

https://youtu.be/DI3BWj7Ykzs

[Mike Henderson]

Tables get a lot of stress. When people move a table, the common approach is to grab one end and either pull or push the table. This puts a lot of stress on the legs since the bottom of the leg wants to stay in place and the top is being pushed. This requires a strong joint between the leg and the apron. Mortise and tenon is the best (strongest) joint for attaching legs to aprons. Dowels are not as strong as mortise and tenon.

Mike

[Zac wingert]

This is the wood
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The legs are Cut, glued, and sanded. Aprons cut to rough size..
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Top is still being glued up

[Zac wingert]

1/2 of the top
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[Robert Engel]

Zac,

I think you have to makings of a very nice table there and a wonderful opportunity to expand your ww'ing skills.

I think every one of us with a view toward becoming a craftsman comes to the realization its not just building something, its about how we will build it which is where you are now or you wouldn't be asking the questions.

I look at each project as a way to develop new skills/techniques or hone the ones I already have learned. In fact, I will deliberately choose a certain project just to challenge myself to learn something new.

Sometimes this entails a bit of study & sometimes buying the right tools.

So I encourage you to get some scrap, practice some mortise and tenons (yes the drill and chisel method works just fine), and you will quickly find it is not so daunting. What will result is a well built table that will last a long time.

Often with furniture building, the satisfaction is mostly personal in that you've done it right, even if nobody can see it.

(BTW a pinned mortise and tenon is arguably the strongest leg/apron joint you could do).

[Floyd Mah]

An additional note to my earlier comments. As Robert says above, each project should come with the challenge (and reward) of learning a new skill. When learning to do mortise and tenon joinery, a most important skill is learning how to sharpen a chisel properly. Tackling this type of joint is an exercise in frustration if you don't start out with a well-sharpened chisel. With a sharp chisel, you can concentrate on making the cuts accurately and not worry about the tools. Take your time and view some of the videos on youtube. You don't need to spend a lot of money. I use plate glass and sand paper of a range of grits to sharpen my chisels. You can buy a cheap guide or learn to do it without a guide (more difficult...something else to learn). Others buy dedicated grinder$ also. All methods work.

[Carlos Alvarez]

Timely thread, my neighbor has asked for help making a dining table from knotty alder. He's handy, but his tools and skills are basically a circular saw, jig saw, and drill. He thought he was going to take S2S lumber and make a table with those tools. Heh. He asked for advice on how and said he "didn't want to bother me" to do it in my shop. Wait, I do this because it's fun, and I get to build something that someone else paid for?? Sweet!

[Roger Marty]

Thanks for the photos. I would definitely go with mortise and tenon joinery. You have nice materials to work with and it would be a shame to do anything other than traditional joinery. M&T joinery is not hard to learn and all you need is a chisel and square and then practice. If you want to go higher tech, then you add a drill to remove waste. Many instructional videos on the net. Greatest satisfaction after you are done. Ian Kirby (as far as I can recall) wrote on doing dovetails that you start with two 4' boards and you make dovetail joints, then cut them off, and repeat until you are out of wood. I think M&T joinery is very similar.

I think doing M&T by hand is tough, especially when you're a beginner in overall woodworking. I tried that-- bought a set of mortising chisels and japenese pull saws. The results were pretty poor.

Nowadays-- I do some stuff with dowels and a self-centering dowel jig.

When I need M&T, I use this mortising jig:

http://www.woodsmithtips.com/2016/02/18/router-jig-for-perfect-mortises/

And I do tenons on the table saw with a dado stack. You can also do tenons on a table saw without a dado stack with a jig.

[Zac wingert]

Well, thanks to the encouragement I’ve received here I decided that I’d regret not at least attempting something other than screws. I only had time to practice some mortise and tenon a couple times with spare scrap. I am embarrassed by the photo, but post in hopes of advice. I used a pull saw and chisel only.
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My progress is nowhere near ready. The tenon is way too small, twice. But I am over the hump. It is within reach, just needs a whole lot of practice. Screw screws. Any help is welcome.

The other half of the table glued up a whole lot nicer than the first two panels. Can’t wait to get the top together .
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[Jim Becker]

Zac...some things to keep in mind: The inside of the mortise doesn't have to be pretty. The tenons don't have to be pristine. The two only need to fit together reasonably well with just enough space for the glue. The most important thing to get "right" is the shoulders on the tenons so that they fit cleanly against the mortised workpieces...that's the only thing that will show once you complete assembly. The same holds true if you have a mortise that the edge will be visible...you just need that "edge" to be perfect. What's down below it "in the hole" will never be seen. In fact, a slightly rough surface on the tenon and in the mortise is a good thing as it provides more opportunity to help the glue lock things together.

[Zac wingert]

Thanks for the advice, Jim. I practiced several more times today. It’s getting there.. my neighbor gave me a drill press today. It has helped speed the mortising up a whole lot. I’m considering making a jig to cut the tenons with my table saw. But I like the idea of doing the joinery by hand. The top is completely glued up now, so once the festivities pass tomorrow and a whole lot of sanding happens I am going to start getting antsy.

[Jim Becker]

For tenons, I cross cut the shoulders on the table saw because I can be extremely accurate that way and get a clean edge. I cut the rest at the bandsaw as it's quick, accurate. If I really want a tight fit, I'll cut slightly proud and refine with hand planes to get there.

[Floyd Mah]

Here's a few hints on making nice chisel cuts. Think of the chisel's purpose as primarily to remove waste: a knife with leverage. Use a straight edge and a razor (or utility knife) to score and cut the first 1/16" of the wood below the surface to outline the mortise as well as the shoulder of the tenon. Be mindful of the angle of your cuts. When you use the chisel, remember that it is a wedge, and will try to travel in a direction that is governed by the wedge, not just the face of the chisel. After your razor cuts, if you set the point of the chisel near, but not in, the cut, you can chip out the wood near the cut. Remove the waste and you have a nice shoulder to guide the rest of your work. I've been lazy in the past and have tried to use the chisel to start my work, but invariably end up with a ragged cut because I wasn't able chisel in a completely straight line. As Jim said, no one sees the inside of the mortise. Only the shoulders are visible. If you are careful to start with straight lines, you can produce a joint that looks like it was done by a craftsman with just a little practice.

[andy bessette]

FM--good post.

[Yonak Hawkins]

For a table like that I see no reason why screws wouldn't work. My teacher instructed me to use screws in my first woodworking project in 8th grade shop and the stool has held for 55 years.

You may want to screw aprons to the table top and attach the legs to the aprons using lag bolts and braces.

[Carlos Alvarez]

Yeah, I see most of the anti-screw advice as "because the other methods are cooler and more artistic" rather than anything practical. The table I'm working on will have very simple lines and blocky legs, so it's really idea for pocket screws. They'd probably work fine without glue, but I'll ask if he wants them glued.

[Jim Morgan]

Like all techniques and devices, pocket screws are appropriate for some applications but not for others. Connecting table top to aprons - fine, especially if non-center holes on cross-grain aprons are elongated to allow for wood movement.

On the other hand, directly screwing legs to aprons - not so good. The problem is that when the table is pushed or pulled, the legs can exert considerable leverage at the top, almost directly in line with the screws. The likelihood of joint failure under this circumstance is not insignificant.

A better solution is to use diagonal braces. These can be secured to the aprons with pocket screws (no forces will be directly in line with these, so unlikely to pull out), with a lag bolt into the inside corner of the leg, pulling it tight against the ends of the aprons. The leg-to-apron joint can be supplemented with dry-fit dowels or dominos, or even M&Ts, increasing strength while preserving the possibility of knocking down the table for moving.

[Brian Holcombe]

Yeah, I see most of the anti-screw advice as "because the other methods are cooler and more artistic" rather than anything practical. The table I'm working on will have very simple lines and blocky legs, so it's really idea for pocket screws. They'd probably work fine without glue, but I'll ask if he wants them glued.


Wooden connections are more rigid than pocket screws and they do not rely heavily on a tiny section of short grain, with a hole in it, to remain intact for their function.

[andy bessette]

Yeah, I see most of the anti-screw advice as "because the other methods are cooler and more artistic" ...

And some are said to have a tin ear for music.

[Carlos Alvarez]

Good point, I've seen the diagonal braces with hanger bolts, and that seems both easy and very strong.

[Peter Christensen]

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I have used corner blocks and hanger bolts for tables and like them because you can take them apart when you want to move them. For a big table I would use 2 hanger bolts. Glue and screws into the skirts and screws into the top have larger holes to allow for movement.

[Carlos Alvarez]

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I have used corner blocks and hanger bolts for tables and like them because you can take them apart when you want to move them. For a big table I would use 2 hanger bolts. Glue and screws into the skirts and screws into the top have larger holes to allow for movement.

I like that a lot. I think that will be my plan. Yes, I know it's not traditional and cool, but I don't have a single care for the furniture parts you can't see, much like I don't care about music I can't hear.

One question...what are the vertical screws for? Do they go all the way into the table top?

[Peter Christensen]

Yes they are holding the top. The holes are enlarged so the top can move. It is a narrow table. On a wide table I use clips or buttons all around the skirt.

[Carlos Alvarez]

It is a narrow table. On a wide table I use clips or buttons all around the skirt.

This will be my first full-size table. Before this, I've only made things that are maybe 18x18 at most. In fact nearly everything I've built is 100% glued and clamped. This is a 7-foot dining table that will end up around 3' wide I think. Can you elaborate on the clips/buttons? Never heard of that.

[Peter Christensen]

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These are metal clips Lee Valley (http://www.leevalley.com/us/hardware/page.aspx?p=40146&cat=3,41306,41309) sell. You can buy from you favourite supplier or make the wooden versions called buttons. I cut my slots with a biscuit tool or you can use the table saw as the LV add shows.

[Jim Becker]

Yes, I know it's not traditional and cool...
This actually is a pretty "traditional" way of assembling tables...albeit it stems from the manufacturing industry since it's practical, easy to execute, strong and gives the ability to knock down when necessary. It's pretty common, actually.

[Yonak Hawkins]

..Or make your own .. simple :

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[Carlos Alvarez]

Peter, thanks, that's cheap, easy, and effective. From what I can find online, you use them near the four corners on each side of the corner. Is that how you do it? For a 7' table it seems like I might want one at the middle of the long side?

[Yonak Hawkins]

Carlos, on my 3' X 8' table there are 7 on each side and 3 on each end. I can't say if it's overkill. I didn't make the table. It was made by an Amish craftsman. I'm the second owner.

Consider you'll, likely, be lifting this table to move it from time to time. With the weight of the legs and apron and the torquing of the legs due to the weight of the table, this will put pressure on the aprons as well as the leg attachments.

[Peter Christensen]

I put them 8" to 12" or so apart down the length of each skirt, whatever looks about right. You can replace the centre clip at each end and put one pocket hole screw in each end skirt since the wood will expand equally on either side of it. All others get the clips. You could even put a cross member between the long dimension skirts and put clips there to keep the middle flat if you really want to overbuild it. ;)

[Carlos Alvarez]

Great ideas. This table is for a neighbor, and there's no way to know how they will manhandle it. I treat MY furniture much more carefully.

[Nick Decker]

Following this thread with interest, as I'm building my first table as well, though mine will be smaller. It'll be a butcher block cart thingie for the kitchen area.

I'm planning to use the metal clips to attach the top, and I figure that as cheap as they are it won't hurt to use a bunch of them.

[Zac wingert]

The top is together. Very uneven but it’ll do. No jointer. Ton of sanding and needs more.
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I made a jig to cut the tenons on my table saw. Had to clean up a lot with a chisel. No turning back now. Still not sure exactly how I’m gonna mike The mortises. I practiced many times but still don’t feel very good about it.
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[andy bessette]

Generally you make the mortises and then make the tenons to fit.

[Patrick Walsh]

The picture above shared by peter is “I think how I attached a table leg to its apron piece. Only thing I add is a true mortise and tenon for the stretcher in the leg. Most often I draw bore this joint. Sometimes I use the hanger bolt, sometimes I don’t. I add diagonal corner blocks with screws for added structural integrity from the table racking.

Being a cabinet maker “box cabinet” maker that is, pocket screws are used all over the place. I’m not a fan even in the slightest. They have become the industry standard though and 9 its 10 guys within the industry would think you are just dumb to M&T anything vrs pocket screw it. This coming from guys that break all rules with regard to wood movement and generally either don’t hink about the longevity of their and or don’t give a darn. What we do is expected to last 20 years at most and in most cases I would say it does that. For most it’s just a job and not a passion or perceived as enjoyable.

If you are ok with those numbers than good on you pocket screw away itÂ’s done every day. M&T joints to soooooo many within the traded craft whatever have become seen as frivolous not needed overt complicated and time consuming. Ok I guess stacked next to a pocket screw the time savings is significant but it really is not that time consuming to use joinery if you are skilled and vrs in such. Becoming skilled and versed really doesnÂ’t take much time itself. But yes you have to set out and dedicate that time before it becomes second hand like anything else one does.

Where am I going with this. It was a comment made up thread that M&T joinery is a bit complicated for a relative beginner. I tend to disagree. I think there is only a few simple things one must know in order to cut M&T successfully. A marking gauge or two, marking all joints at the same time, sawing close to the line then pairing to it, cutting right to the line is a disaster for a beginner, a sharpe chisel and a guide block clamped to your workpieces to guarantee 90% work then a desire for relative perfectionism. The work does not have to be perfect 99.9% of the time as the shoulders hide the mortise. If you get your shoulders right and your mortise close there are all kinds of work around to make sure things end up square and structurally strong.

In the beininnig fear was my biggest limiter. I had built M&T joinery up in my head to be so involved complex and difficult. In the end I came to find out that after just a little research a little trial and error I was cutting clean joinery within my first few attempts.

DonÂ’t let fear drive you from a task. Use that fear to drive you to achieve the task.

[Patrick Walsh]

Youtube is your friend.

[Zac wingert]

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Ok, half of them are done..

[Brian Holcombe]

Nice work. When you mortise at the end of the piece you can cut a haunched mortise and tenon. The haunch is hidden by the table top and moving the tenon further from the end reduces the chance of the short grain breaking out either during the cutout or during use.

[Robert Engel]

Good job, Zac. Can you make those tenons a bit longer?

Either way, I suggest pinning them.

[Roger Marty]

Well done!

[Zac wingert]

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Its coming along. Glad I didn’t use screws. What about corner braces?? And the top is horribly wavy. I don’t have a jointer..

[Jim Dwight]

That joint looks great - regardless of how you did it. I only have patience enough for a plunge router or hollow chisel mortiser. I will probably buy a Domino soon to really speed it up. You seem to be making good progress on a really nice table.

Mathias Wandel (woodworking for engineers) tested mortise and tenon joints and found that having a little rougher mortise actually increased strength. So even if it doesn't look perfect, no reason to worry.

[Jim Becker]

Looking good. Corner braces can't hurt if done right.

As to the top, if you're not happy with the surface, continue to work on it with very sharp hand planes and a scraper...or a lot of sanding...whatever works.

[mark mcfarlane]

... And the top is horribly wavy. I don’t have a jointer..

Zac, If you prefer a flat top (rustic, wavy tops are popular nowadays), another option is to find a local shop with a large wide belt sander and pay them to pass your top through a few times... It's OK to get help on something like this when you don't have the right tool.

Like Jim said, hand planing is also another option but a good, large flattening plane will cost more than contracting out the flattening. However, you learn new skills and have the hand plane in your box for the next project.

You did a nice job on the M&T, so doing some hand planing could be fun, but if your grain is 'every which way' then planing (hand or machine) may be frustrating. Like working with chisels, planing seems to be an acquired set of skills (sharpening then planing) that I haven't developed yet.

Anyway, the table is looking great. I think you made the right choice on the M&T approach, it will keep you smiling for decades every time you use the table. FWIW, I'd also do corner braces. Every large table I have ever owned has had them. Seems like a proven design choice for longevity.

[Zac wingert]

Again, thank you for the help. Making the mortises by hand with a hammer and chisel really wasn’t as impossible as I thought. Just a lot of patience and practice pieces. I went through most of my poplar scraps practicing. I’ve been on other forums and such for other hobbies and received a lot of negative input when I’m asking for advice to improve. I appreciate it.