Through mortise and tenons

[Brian Eaton]

I just spent over an hour painstakingly laying out 8 mortises for the workbench I am building. After checking over things several times I am confident I got everything laid out as accurately as I am capable of. However, I’ve never done through mortise and tenon joints and the only mortise and tenon joinery I’ve done is on a much smaller scale. On a positive note, I really enjoyed using my Veritas dual marking gauge for the first time.

I’ve done lots of reading/watching YouTube, etc. and feel like I understand the concept but I’m rather nervous about it. I don’t have any mortise chisels so my options are the Paul Sellers method (not terribly appealing) or drilling out the mortises (half way from each side) with a bit smaller than the size of the mortise (3/4”) and pairing the remaining waste to the marking gauge lines.

Any thoughts/tips/sage wisdom?

Thanks!

[Jim Koepke]

It can be helpful to clamp a piece of scrap to the work as a guide for keeping the drill square.

jtk

[Jeff L Jump]

I've cut mortises by drilling first and by just chopping with a bench chisel the size of the mortise width. In my experience I prefer chopping to drilling, I use a guide to keep my chisel cutting a straight mortise. Keeping the chisel sharp is the trick to making this as easy as it can be.

[matteo furbacchione]

I've cut mortises by drilling first and by just chopping with a bench chisel the size of the mortise width. In my experience I prefer chopping to drilling, I use a guide to keep my chisel cutting a straight mortise. Keeping the chisel sharp is the trick to making this as easy as it can be.

Ya sharp is the key. A sharp chisel will cut the wood fibres as opposed to bending and crushing them. And, if you don't have mortice chisels that's no problem; just don't try driving a regular chisel like an ol pig sticker. Also, cut from both sides and meet in the middle. Even if you're a slight bit out this help to correct that.

[Prashun Patel]

My advice is to start out with the drill and pare method.

One benefit of this method on through mortises is that if you use a drill press/fence with good set up, your holes will be perfectly line up, and confirm that that your layout for the final lines is correct.

[Robert Engel]

All of the above, and obviously, practice on some scrap :-)

Slight relief cut toward middle of mortise.

Don't mess with the show side until the last.

Dont' worry too much about the inside the shoulder on the stretcher will hide any flaws.

[lowell holmes]

I agree with Jeff.

[Jim Koepke]

I don’t have any mortise chisels so my options are the Paul Sellers method (not terribly appealing)

People were likely using non-mortise chisels to cut mortises centuries before Sellers was born. My first chisel was bought at a flea market for 50¢, a Stanley plastic handled #60. The first thing it was used to do after a crude attempt at sharpening was to see if it could cut a square hole through a piece of oak. It did. This was before my learning much of anything about working wood or even knowing about mortise chisels.

So Brian, you have studied your quarry, now is the time to do one or two for practice and then to jump in.

You will likely be impressed with how well you pull it off.

jtk

[David Eisenhauer]

One other thing to add to the good advise offered by all up above - this is a workbench as opposed to piece of furniture. The through M&T, while required to be structurally sound, can suffer slightly in appearance and not cause major problems. If you decide to chop them, rather than drilling them, you should find that it is not nearly as difficult to maintain the straight line as you chop down than you think it will. Halfway from each side as described above, and, yes a bench chisel can also do the work. For me, the corners of the mortise usually require the most follow up clean out, with sometimes a sidewall "shave" to clean off the "whiskers" after first trying to insert the tenon.

[michael langman]

Brian, Why don't you try doing the mortices both ways to see which way you prefer. If you take your time I'm sure they will be fine.

[Jerry Olexa]

A through mortise is much easier than doing a standard mortise where you are limited by the "stop" area.....You'll do fine,

[David Myers]

Good advice above.

I've never regretted finally getting started on an intimidating part of a project.

Send some pics if time allows.

[Doug Dawson]

I just spent over an hour painstakingly laying out 8 mortises for the workbench I am building. After checking over things several times I am confident I got everything laid out as accurately as I am capable of. However, I’ve never done through mortise and tenon joints and the only mortise and tenon joinery I’ve done is on a much smaller scale. On a positive note, I really enjoyed using my Veritas dual marking gauge for the first time.

I’ve done lots of reading/watching YouTube, etc. and feel like I understand the concept but I’m rather nervous about it. I don’t have any mortise chisels so my options are the Paul Sellers method (not terribly appealing) or drilling out the mortises (half way from each side) with a bit smaller than the size of the mortise (3/4”) and pairing the remaining waste to the marking gauge lines.

Any thoughts/tips/sage wisdom?

Thanks!

Am I correct in assuming that you have a _deeply_scribed_ outline on either end of the mortise? If not, make that happen, with a marking knife. Go deep. Accurate layout is important here. From inside the mortise, in the waste part IOW, chisel down at a shallow angle to emphasize where the edge is. On one side and then the other, drill out most of the waste, small drill bit on the corners and then a larger drill bit otherwise. The wedge-like surface on the waste part will be your guide. The interior of your mortise will be a slight hourglass, but you can pare away at that.

A decent "pigsticker" mortising chisel of the correct size is a good thing to have, and this exercise will teach you just how good it is. A mortising machine would be even better, but the bench top machines are borderline when it comes to 3/4" mortises, any bigger and we're talking about timber framing and they're out of their league (depending on the wood of course.) In that case you'd probably be doing the above anyway, unless you wanted to go out and buy a chain mortiser.

[Brian Eaton]

Thanks for the advice! I ended up doing 4 using the Sellers method and the remaining 4 I drilled and paired. I feel like I was better able to maintain crisp lines with the drill and pair method but it was a fun experience learning the chisel method. That being said, it was very tedious to knock 8 of those out in one day!1

[Warren Mickley]

Glad to hear things worked out for you, Brian. I hope you can get a real mortise chisel some day. The great advantage of a mortise chisel is not so much that it is stronger, but that the thicker body makes the chisel sort of self jigging and gives a neater and cleaner result.

Someone mentioned people not using mortise chisels before Sellers was born. I don't think people were that stupid then. Mortise chisels predate the iron age. And bevel edged chisels and mortising machines both got going in the late 19th century.

In general, we use a mortise chisel for mortises under 1/2 inch and we bore and chop mortises over 1 inch. In between it is a matter of preference or what one is most accustomed to. One technique which I use for wider mortises is to make a narrow mortise 1/4 or 5/16 at each edge, then chop out the stuff in the middle. If you had had a mortise chisel I might have recommended this for your mortises.

[Mark Rainey]

Yes Brian, hand mortising can be a chore. I agree with Warren - time to get a $20 Narex mortising chisel from Lee Valley. In addition to better results, one of the finest pleasures in woodworking is pounding a hefty mortise chisel with a mallet with force and fury. Try it.

[Jim Koepke]

Someone mentioned people not using mortise chisels before Sellers was born.

You must have misread what was posted:


People were likely using non-mortise chisels to cut mortises centuries before Sellers was born.

It isn't a statement claiming people didn't use mortise chisels before the birth of Mr. Sellers. Nor did it infer, as the statement above does, the history of mortise chisels began with the birth of Mr. Sellers.

Its intended message is, people have often used chisels not specifically made as mortise chisels to cut mortises if they didn't have a mortise chisel at hand.

My point is Mr. Sellers wasn't the first person to have used a bench chisel to cut a mortise and he won't be the last. Also as said in the text, before even hearing of Mr. Sellers or even knowing about mortise chisels one of my first uses of a chisel was to cut a mortise.


I don't think people were that stupid then.

Are they somehow less "stupid" now by Mr. Sellers giving his blessing to the practice?

It is not my opinion that people who cut mortises with a bench chisel are any less mentally competent than anyone else. My opinion is for me, it is easier and more satisfying to use a mortise chisel if one has a mortise chisel.

One of the many beauties of woodworking is there are always many ways to reach the same end.

jtk

[Bill Carey]

Yes Brian, hand mortising can be a chore. I agree with Warren - time to get a $20 Narex mortising chisel from Lee Valley. In addition to better results, one of the finest pleasures in woodworking is pounding a hefty mortise chisel with a mallet with force and fury. Try it.

I could not agree more. I bought the Narex set of mortise chisels and love using them. First thing I did with them was to make a thru mortise in a chunk of oak to make a mallet. Quite enjoyable.

[Jim Koepke]

Thanks for the advice! I ended up doing 4 using the Sellers method and the remaining 4 I drilled and paired. I feel like I was better able to maintain crisp lines with the drill and pair method but it was a fun experience learning the chisel method. That being said, it was very tedious to knock 8 of those out in one day!1

Good Show!

Also good to have tried two ways to find which feels better for you.

jtk

[James Pallas]

It doesn't hurt a thing to try different methods. I have drilled and pared, used a mortise chisel, used a bench chisel it all works. I prefer mortise chisel work. On a workbench I would probably drill and pare if a nice trestle table I would use a mortise chisel if I had the correct size or do like Warren suggested, two side by side mortises and cut out the middle piece. I think I could make a guess here and say that the chisels the ancient Egyptians used probably didn't look much like anything we use today. Sometimes a person does not have money to spend for a mortise chisel and use what they have, I've been there. Do the best you can with the tools you have.
Jim

[steven c newman]

While building a screendoor for the house....used through mortise and tenons..
388249
Came in from both sides. 1/4" tenons so I used a 1/4" mortise chisel..
388250
Built a fixture to hold thing upright, and not bounce around..
388251
Lock rail area.
388252
Then came back with wedges and pins.
388253
Then trim things flush....

[Doug Dawson]

Are they somehow less "stupid" now by Mr. Sellers giving his blessing to the practice?

People before Mr. Sellers weren't smarter than people today. They just had a lot more time on their hands. No tv, no computers, no internet, no printing press. They came up with a lot of odd stuff, half out of desperation, half out of boredom. Ask Patrick Leach, he knows all about this.

[ken hatch]

Yes Brian, hand mortising can be a chore. I agree with Warren - time to get a $20 Narex mortising chisel from Lee Valley. In addition to better results, one of the finest pleasures in woodworking is pounding a hefty mortise chisel with a mallet with force and fury. Try it.

Hummm....Like most things in life, it goes better with a gentle touch. When you drive too hard the chisel will stick and it takes time to free it. It is best to tap, tap, tap, lever, repeat until everything that does not look like a mortise hole is removed. Mortises can go very quickly with a light touch and adequate area to clear the chips. A pig sticker works better than a sash mortise chisel or a bevel edge but all will do the job.

ken

[lowell holmes]

By all means, try one. It is a fun trip. Just mark a mortise on a piece of 2X4, then take a razor sharp chisel and mallet and chop away.
In a through mortise I sometimes will drill a hole in one end of the mortise after I have started it. The hole helps with chip disposal.

[Mike Holbrook]

I will mention a few inexpensive parts I recently purchased from Lee Valley (LV) that may help. LV makes drill guides (search “bushings and inserts”, & “dog hole bushings and bits”) which can be made into a jig using any 2x4 scrap. If one does not have a drill press, or if the piece being worked is not easily moved to a drill press...one of these jigs allows one to drill accurate holes for the mortises.

[ken hatch]

If you chose the drill and pare method the easiest and least amount of monkey motion, also most accurate, is a simple brace and bit. Big mortises, deep narrow and/or angled mortises can be easier to drill and pare otherwise a pigsticker works better.

ken

[Charles Guest]

I just spent over an hour painstakingly laying out 8 mortises for the workbench I am building. After checking over things several times I am confident I got everything laid out as accurately as I am capable of. However, I’ve never done through mortise and tenon joints and the only mortise and tenon joinery I’ve done is on a much smaller scale. On a positive note, I really enjoyed using my Veritas dual marking gauge for the first time.

I’ve done lots of reading/watching YouTube, etc. and feel like I understand the concept but I’m rather nervous about it. I don’t have any mortise chisels so my options are the Paul Sellers method (not terribly appealing) or drilling out the mortises (half way from each side) with a bit smaller than the size of the mortise (3/4”) and pairing the remaining waste to the marking gauge lines.

Any thoughts/tips/sage wisdom?

Thanks!

Practice on some off cuts the exact same size as the live project parts!

[Mike Holbrook]

I have a “pigsticker” which I have used to make mortises. I think one of several Japanese mortising and heavier “other” chisels work even better. The hoops, handles and chisel shafts are specifically designed to be used with heavier Geenou (Japanese metal hammer, tradionally with a wood handle). These tools are designed to drive chisels faster and more accurately. Stanley Covington has written several articles here on SMC regarding the use and construction of these hammers and chisels. Brian Holcombe’s videos and web site are also a good source of information on the use of these tools.

Certainly a multitude of tools will do the job. It may be advisable to look at the construction of these joints as a journey which has many routes which may work better for specific work.

[Warren Mickley]

I have a “pigsticker” which I have used to make mortises. I think one of several Japanese mortising and heavier “other” chisels work even better. The hoops, handles and chisel shafts are specifically designed to be used with heavier Geenou (Japanese metal hammer, tradionally with a wood handle). These tools are designed to drive chisels faster and more accurately. Stanley Covington has written several articles here on SMC regarding the use and construction of these hammers and chisels.

I have used a 30 ounce dogwood mallet for making mortises since 1979. I have used it almost entirely with chisels without hoops. Andre Roubo shows a mallet with larger dimensions than mine: based on these dimensions it could be 42 ounces. Roubo shows no chisels with hoops at all.

How heavy is the gennou you are using? How long does it take you to make a mortise that is 5/16 X 1 1/2 X 1 1/2 inches deep?

[Mark Rainey]

Hummm....Like most things in life, it goes better with a gentle touch. When you drive too hard the chisel will stick and it takes time to free it. It is best to tap, tap, tap, lever, repeat until everything that does not look like a mortise hole is removed. Mortises can go very quickly with a light touch and adequate area to clear the chips. A pig sticker works better than a sash mortise chisel or a bevel edge but all will do the job.

kenKen, we can choose our own methods of work & I respect yours. Paul Sellers tap, tap tapping with a light round mallet just doesn’t do it for me. There is nothing gentle or mild about mortising. Ian Kirby describes violent blows, full arm swings! Let it rip! The chisel will travel deep and a forceful pull will lever out stubborn chips. Fast, furious and satisfying. Warren describes club like mallets - remember, this is the Neanderthal forum😉

[Pat Barry]

Ken, we can choose our own methods of work & I respect yours. Paul Sellers tap, tap tapping with a light round mallet just doesn’t do it for me. There is nothing gentle or mild about mortising. Ian Kirby describes violent blows, full arm swings! Let it rip! The chisel will travel deep and a forceful pull will lever out stubborn chips. Fast, furious and satisfying. Warren describes club like mallets - remember, this is the Neanderthal forum😉
I have a nice palm sized roundish rock that I like to use for mortice chopping. Have no idea about the weight but it stays on the bench nicely because its not too round. Feels better, more natural, than a metal hammer.

[ken hatch]

I have a nice palm sized roundish rock that I like to use for mortice chopping. Have no idea about the weight but it stays on the bench nicely because its not too round. Feels better, more natural, than a metal hammer.

Pat,

If you are not kidding, I like, not that I would do it that way but, I like and it makes me smile.

ken

[ken hatch]

Ken, we can choose our own methods of work & I respect yours. Paul Sellers tap, tap tapping with a light round mallet just doesn’t do it for me. There is nothing gentle or mild about mortising. Ian Kirby describes violent blows, full arm swings! Let it rip! The chisel will travel deep and a forceful pull will lever out stubborn chips. Fast, furious and satisfying. Warren describes club like mallets - remember, this is the Neanderthal forum

Mark,

As always with woodworking, what ever blows your skirt and YMMV. I'm not much in favor of the Conan approach to anything in life, be it cars, airplanes, women, dogs or woodworking.

ken

[Mark Rainey]

Mark,

As always with woodworking, what ever blows your skirt and YMMV. I'm not much in favor of the Conan approach to anything in life, be it cars, airplanes, women, dogs or woodworking.

ken I am not in macho activities either Ken, but maybe the mortising substitutes for shoot um up video games which I cannot seem to get into.

[ken hatch]

I am not in macho activities either Ken, but maybe the mortising substitutes for shoot um up video games which I cannot seem to get into.

Mark,

I hear you :)

ken

[steven c newman]

IF you ever drop in on a Youtube show called Traditional Chinese Woodworking....the "host" puts on a little show & tell, about chopping a mortise, and a through one at that......and will put most of you to shame doing it. Worth the watch...IF you dare...

[lowell holmes]

Bevel edge chisels will chop mortises. Any hammer will do, but a mallet is better.

[Kevin Perez]

I haven’t done through mortises, but I have done blind mortises using Paul Sellers’s method and bench chisels. It worked great and was a lot of fun. The tip on practicing first is key to get your confidence up. Just work carefully and work from both sides. You’d be surprised how well the chisel tracks square. I’m looking forward to my next project when I can do it again!

[Jim Koepke]

I have done blind mortises using Paul Sellers’s method and bench chisels. It worked great and was a lot of fun.

If you want some real fun, spring for an inexpensive mortise chisel like a Narex in the size you use most. If you do not like it, it would likely be easy to sell at little loss.

If as my suspicions lead me to believe, you like it, then you may want to acquire the sizes you use regularly.

Driving a chisel is fun. Whacking a mortise chisel is way more fun.

It is like the difference of driving a sedan or a truck.

jtk

[Kevin Perez]

If you want some real fun, spring for an inexpensive mortise chisel like a Narex in the size you use most.
jtk

I actually own a Sorby mortise chisel in 1/4" in addition to my bench chisels. It is not a pig sticker, but halfway there from a bench chisel. I have used it for mortises as well with good results, too. I guess maybe I need to go full bore and try something more "Neanderthaly."

[ken hatch]

I actually own a Sorby mortise chisel in 1/4" in addition to my bench chisels. It is not a pig sticker, but halfway there from a bench chisel. I have used it for mortises as well with good results, too. I guess maybe I need to go full bore and try something more "Neanderthaly."

Kevin,

Almost any chisel can work to chop mortises. For some mortises, different woods, different width and depth, different types of chisels will be easier to use. I expect your Sorby is a sash mortise chisel that was made to do shallow, fairly narrow mortises. A true pig sticker comes into its own chopping deeper mortises, once you use one it is hard to go back.

ken

[Warren Mickley]

Kevin,

Almost any chisel can work to chop mortises. For some mortises, different woods, different width and depth, different types of chisels will be easier to use. I expect your Sorby is a sash mortise chisel that was made to do shallow, fairly narrow mortises. A true pig sticker comes into its own chopping deeper mortises, once you use one it is hard to go back.

ken

Any chisel can make a shallow mortise. A sash mortise is helpful when the mortise is deep and not too long. It is much easier to manipulate the sash mortise because it does not so much fill up the cavity.

[Mark Maleski]

Any chisel can make a shallow mortise. A sash mortise is helpful when the mortise is deep and not too long. It is much easier to manipulate the sash mortise because it does not so much fill up the cavity.
Warren, which of the two (pigsticker or sash mortise) do you prefer for relatively shallow mortises on a Chippendale chair? (Even a through mortise joining the rails to the stiles could be considered “shallow,” given the morticing is approached from both sides of the stile.). I have always used a pigsticker, but your post has me questioning that. Perhaps I’ll find a sash chisel and give it a try on my next chair.

[Warren Mickley]

Warren, which of the two (pigsticker or sash mortise) do you prefer for relatively shallow mortises on a Chippendale chair? (Even a through mortise joining the rails to the stiles could be considered “shallow,” given the morticing is approached from both sides of the stile.). I have always used a pigsticker, but your post has me questioning that. Perhaps I’ll find a sash chisel and give it a try on my next chair.

Of course the chisel you are used to will give good results.

In the 18th century mortise chisels were sort of intermediate between the sash mortise chisel and the joiner's mortise chisel. They were probably a bit lighter at the beginning of the century. The two forms, sash and joiner's, originated in the 19th century at the same time that machines were starting to be used for making mortises. (Some were foot power.) I don't know which of these tools were used by which trades in the 19th century. Charles Hayward said that sash mortise chisels were used for cabinetmaking, but I can't think of other references.

I prefer sash mortise chisels for furniture. I would recommend them, but I would not go so far as to suggest that someone replace their joiner's mortise chisels if things are working out for them.

[John Kananis]

I have a set of those Sorby sash mortise chisels and they work well for me. I've seen so many threads on pig-stickers that I'd love to try one but as I said, the Sorby chisels work just fine and I never had a problem with the sides not being square to the flat.

[Mike Holbrook]

Warren, maybe you will like my dogwood mallet experiments:

389767

I have more too, “finished” and parts. I use mine more for splitting with wedges, froes, axes and dogwood gluts. I have obviously been experimenting with different handle and head shapes.....