Teaching youngsters

[Jerry Coble]

2 years ago a neighbor down the road heard that I did woodworking and asked if I would teach her 13 year old son as part of his "home schooling" and I volunteered. His first assignment was to look up some woodworking terminology. Like, Kerf, miter, crosscut, rip saw, etc. Nothing very difficult but thought it was wise to have him understand the language. I gave him a small note pad with the words and space for the defination. Next day when he returned he had a lame excuse but I just added more words and instead of 10 words he then had 20 to learn.Three days later he was to return and he did but without his notebook or the words. I sent him home. His mother returned shortly and was irate that I had ended his "education". Was I unfair? I will never believe I was. I had looked forward to a positive experience but it ended on a sour note.

[Steve Clardy]

2 years ago a neighbor down the road heard that I did woodworking and asked if I would teach her 13 year old son as part of his "home schooling" and I volunteered. His first assignment was to look up some woodworking terminology. Like, Kerf, miter, crosscut, rip saw, etc. Nothing very difficult but thought it was wise to have him understand the language. I gave him a small note pad with the words and space for the defination. Next day when he returned he had a lame excuse but I just added more words and instead of 10 words he then had 20 to learn.Three days later he was to return and he did but without his notebook or the words. I sent him home. His mother returned shortly and was irate that I had ended his "education". Was I unfair? I will never believe I was. I had looked forward to a positive experience but it ended on a sour note.

Sounds like He was not interested, his mother was.
I did 4-H woodwork teaching for a couple years, most of them picked it up and remembered as they wanted to. Pretty good bunch of boys.
Had no problems till one of the Dads showed up telling me I was teaching them to use the wrong hand saw cutting lumber. I was using a short all purpose saw, He had brought a fine toothed miter saw. ??????? Ever tried to rip a board with a miter saw? Steve

[Bobby Hatfield]

2 years ago a neighbor down the road heard that I did woodworking and asked if I would teach her 13 year old son as part of his "home schooling" and I volunteered. His first assignment was to look up some woodworking terminology. Like, Kerf, miter, crosscut, rip saw, etc. Nothing very difficult but thought it was wise to have him understand the language. I gave him a small note pad with the words and space for the defination. Next day when he returned he had a lame excuse but I just added more words and instead of 10 words he then had 20 to learn.Three days later he was to return and he did but without his notebook or the words. I sent him home. His mother returned shortly and was irate that I had ended his "education". Was I unfair? I will never believe I was. I had looked forward to a positive experience but it ended on a sour note.


Jerry, sounds like she wanted you to undo what she had created in 13 years. She is the one who will have to teach responibility and he is the one who will have to learn commitment. Desire to learn is just not there in some children, and some grownups, I have had about 20 helpers in the last 8 years and only one or two were worth my time to tell them what I wanted done. One lasted 55 minutes before leaving, he was recomended by his girlfriend's enployer. My last one, I found out after hiring him that he was a talented carpenter and cabinet builder who was fast and good, would not work full time (or lose unemployment check, I found out) and had a family with wife working too.

[Ken Salisbury]

His first assignment was to look up some woodworking terminology. Like, Kerf, miter, crosscut, rip saw, etc. Nothing very difficult but thought it was wise to have him understand the language.

Was I unfair? I will never believe I was. I had looked forward to a positive experience but it ended on a sour note.

Jerry,

I have somewhat of a passion when it comes to teaching the craft to young folks. I have been successful doing that in many cases.

Since you asked the question: Was I unfair? I will never believe I was. I had looked forward to a positive experience but it ended on a sour note.

I believe the approach was a little wrong.

Basically you gave the youngster a test (or at least homework) before doing any teaching. Tests and homework are dreaded by most students to begin with (remember back to you own school days). Your assignment required (in my opinion) research into things which were foreign to him and he may not have had any idea where to begin. Next the youngster was penalized by adding work of the same type that he failed at.

As an ex high school football coach I can make an analogy of showing players the basic fundamentals of blocking and tackling before you require them to be versed on all the terminology you would be using.

It has been my experience that you must first stir an interest in the subject. Had I been asked to do what you were asked, I would have first had the boy spend some time in the shop watching me work and explaining various things about what I was doing and why I was doing them a certain way. Possibly even making something small, with some help from him. Not necessarily using any power tools, but rather things like measuring, sanding parts, test fitting joints, etc, etc. You could have even picked some small project to make that the boy could have used.

Please do not take offense at my comments. -- It is just an old man expressing his 2 ¢ worth.

[Jason Roehl]

I agree with alot of what Ken said (and I also defer to his many, many...uhhhh....many years of experience), but I don't think that you were entirely unfair. As someone soon to delve into the realm of homeschooling myself, something the parent was lacking was encouragement. It sounds to me like the approach she took was one of making the teacher (you) entirely responsible for the education of the student. I would think that's what she was trying to avoid by homeschooling in the first place. Whatever, the teaching system (be it public, homeschool, or the woodworking dude down the street), it is the parent's responsibility to encourage the student to work within the system to achieve the educational goal.

Back to agreeing with Ken, though. What you were doing was attempting to familiarize him with the lingo, but it's like being thrown into a group of 20 strangers and being expected to remember all their names after only meeting them and no interaction--a near impossible task for most of us. Or it's like teaching someone to drive without using a car. You gotta eventually get in the car. And, remember, years ago, many learned to drive with no "book-larnin'" to begin with--they just hopped in and went with the instructor.

If you're really interested in teaching woodworking and passing the craft on to another generation, I'd see if I couldn't patch up the relationship and make another go of it.

[Bill Grumbine]

Good evening gentlemen. My take is a bit different. Ken is right in that the terminology is unfamiliar. However, it is nothing that a reasonably good dictionary would not cure in very short order. Even if the terms still elude his understanding, they would at least provide information to both student and teacher. The student would learn some words and their definitions that should at least spark some curiosity, and the teacher would learn something of his (the student's) ability to carry out simple instructions. I would be inclined to accept as a reasonable effort a partially filled in list, but it sounds like he just blew it off completely.

The fact that the boy was even presented to you assumes some sort of pre-qualification on the part of the parent. Your expectations don’t sound unfair to me. If a kid is not going to bother to look up a few words, he is not going to do well when you hand him a piece of sandpaper, and who knows what would happen if his rebellion manifested itself with a power tool? It isn’t about his learning type, or anything like that, it is about following simple instructions and respect for authority.

We’ve been homeschooling for nine years now, and actively involved with a number of other homeschoolers. I had a similar experience with a family who wanted me to “apprentice” their oldest boy, who was 15 at the time. I told them I would be glad to teach him the basics of woodworking while he worked in my shop. The first tool I showed him how to use was the broom, with the second being the dustpan. We got through those without too much trouble, and moved on to more advanced things like sanding. Once he did a good job sanding, I let him start cutting blanks and routing them in a jig I had devised.

While things started out well, they soon came to a screeching halt. In very short order the boy started telling me how things would work better if I did them his way. He also demonstrated a remarkable lack of ability to follow more than one instruction at a time, and if I was not in the room, he came to a halt and just stood there, or found his way to where my daughters were for the purposes of socializing.

After a $500 order had to be redone because of his failure to follow very simple instructions, I had a frank conversation with his parents, who were very unhappy that I had not given him even more responsibility or autonomy. I told them he wasn’t going to be moving on to any other areas until he mastered the ones he had already been given. They did not like that at all, so I dismissed him.

The good news is that not all kids (or parents) are like this. There are many good kids with responsible parents out there. It is a shame that parents allow and encourage this kind of attitude. Don’t let the experience sour you on all kids, but rather if the opportunity comes up again, have a very blunt (but polite) conversation with the parents, making sure that everyone’s expectations are clear on what is to happen and how. It avoids misunderstandings later one, and reduces the chances of unpleasant surprises significantly.

Additionally, things may change in a year or two. I had some kids in my shop learning turning. Desptite firm and unmistakable warnings, two of the three proceeded to engage in swordfighting with my turning tools while the third was actually turning on the lathe. I threw them all out, enacting a ban which lasted almost three years. However, they have grown enough in maturity that they are now coming back in and handling tools (albeit on a limited basis).

Bill

[Jerry Coble]

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Jerry,

I have somewhat of a passion when it comes to teaching the craft to young folks. I have been successful doing that in many cases.

Since you asked the question: Was I unfair? I will never believe I was. I had looked forward to a positive experience but it ended on a sour note.

I believe the approach was a little wrong.

Basically you gave the youngster a test (or at least homework) before doing any teaching. Tests and homework are dreaded by most students to begin with (remember back to you own school days). Your assignment required (in my opinion) research into things which were foreign to him and he may not have had any idea where to begin. Next the youngster was penalized by adding work of the same type that he failed at.

As an ex high school football coach I can make an analogy of showing players the basic fundamentals of blocking and tackling before you require them to be versed on all the terminology you would be using.

It has been my experience that you must first stir an interest in the subject. Had I been asked to do what you were asked, I would have first had the boy spend some time in the shop watching me work and explaining various things about what I was doing and why I was doing them a certain way. Possibly even making something small, with some help from him. Not necessarily using any power tools, but rather things like measuring, sanding parts, test fitting joints, etc, etc. You could have even picked some small project to make that the boy could have used.

Please do not take offense at my comments. -- It is just an old man expressing his 2 ¢ worth. No offense. I left out a lot because I thought it was not pertinent. We did build a bird house and a shadow box. He measured and marked. I used the power tools. He nailed them together so there was more than just handing him the assignment. He told me he could look up the words and have the answers the next day. I just was holding him responsible to his word. After no attempt I quit. Ha.

[Mac McAtee]

2 years ago a neighbor down the road heard that I did woodworking and asked if I would teach her 13 year old son as part of his "home schooling" and I volunteered. His first assignment was to look up some woodworking terminology. Like, Kerf, miter, crosscut, rip saw, etc. Nothing very difficult but thought it was wise to have him understand the language. I gave him a small note pad with the words and space for the defination. Next day when he returned he had a lame excuse but I just added more words and instead of 10 words he then had 20 to learn.Three days later he was to return and he did but without his notebook or the words. I sent him home. His mother returned shortly and was irate that I had ended his "education". Was I unfair? I will never believe I was. I had looked forward to a positive experience but it ended on a sour note.


Some people learn better by doing then they do by reading. There are untold numbers of woodworkers that got there because they weren't students. A lot of them are very find craftsmen.

Perhaps one of your basic projects used a particular wood, like walnut. After starting that project, perhaps a suitable homework assignment would be to look up walnut wood and be ready to discuss the various properties of the wood, where it comes from, primary uses and if possible find a walnut tree and report back as to where it is and pay it a visit. As the project proceeds the next assignment could be to research various finishes that are compatible with walnut and bring to "class" three different options using three different types or kinds of finishing materials. Then go to the HD, Lowe's or what have you and find the three things, choose one and use it to finish the project.

If the conclusion was using a varnish then an assignment could be looking up different kinds of varnish and figuring out what the differences are and applications of the different types. The internet is a good tool, give the kid a few catalogs with finishing supplies in them. Don't expect a doctoral thesis, just a basic understanding of different types, manufacturers and costs.

During the "class" time toss out the technical terms you want your student to learn. Ask him if he knows what that particular term means. If he does, discuss his understanding of the term. If he doesn't, tell him and then discuss your understanding of the term.

When that project is complete and you start another one, use a different wood and make a rule that a different kind of finish must be used, go through the process as above again. Introduce hardware in a project, like hinges and knobs. Make the research include those items, make the class technical discussions on the introduced items and new tools that you use as the projects get more complex, and so on.

[Dave Anderson NH]

My grandson Aaron expressed interest in learning woodworking about a year ago. I purposely avoided the issue each of the six or so times he asked me over the next few months. Finally about February I assented and talked it over with him and my son. Aaron now comes up one day a month specifically so that he and I can spend time in the shop. It is working out well and he is still interested after four sessions of about 3-6 hours each. We work for a while, go out and run an errand or two and then do a bit more. The key is to keep the sessions short enough that he doesn't get tired or have his 8 year old attention span diverted too much.

My whole approach when he first asked was to find out if this was a typical child type whim or if it was something he was really interested in doing. Since he persisted in his requests over a period of months, I knew he was serious. Whether he continues or not is a choice he can make at any time. I won't push,but will be happy to provide him with all the instruction he can absorb. As it is now, we are having a great time and he has trouble waiting for the next session. The bonus is that he is helping me relearn patience, a commodity I always can use more of.

[Perry Schmidt]

Lots of good advice so far...I agree w/ Ken. I think I like Bill's comments best so far...first thing they learn to do is sweep the shop :) I basically learned from my Dad and I spent countless hours cleaning the garage (his shop) and just watching him and handing him tools before I ever got to do anything real. But I learned a ton during that 'handing him the tools and watching'. We talked a lot and I asked a lot of questions during that time.

Anyway, I teach a SSchool class w/ young teens. And the thing w/ them is you can take a lesson and one day they'll be very interested, participate well and it's very enjoyable. Take that same lesson, teach it the same way and on any other given day they're screwing around, not paying attention, and just not in the least bit interested. They are a very difficult group to teach. So first - don't give up quite so easily?? I know you said you shortened your description by quite a bit so maybe you didn't.

But as to being unfair, I do beleive that the parent was the unfair one here and you shouldn't feel guilty about 'ending the education' at all. The kids parent isn't helping at all if they aren't willing to work w/ you and help you. Just getting mad that you aren't going their job properly is just wrong.

And wrt different approaches - I agree that looking up words may not be the most fun, but look at it this way: If in your opinion the kid wasn't 'playing by the rules' - whatevern rules you set out, then what happens when he again ignores the rules when it comes time to using the power tools. THEN it's changed from a minor irritation to serious injury.

No matter how you determine the kid has the maturity and responsibility that's required to safely used the 'big tools' - looking up works, doing homework, cleaning the shop - I do think that's very important. This time it was his notebook. What if next time 'he forgot' to use safety glasses when using a table saw...and something shot into his eye? Or 'forgot' to let the blade stop before taking the scrap piece of wood away. "Oops - I forgot, sorry" doesn't cut it when he's missing a finger...

So I don't think you were unfair at all. There are many different approaches and some are better than others for different kids. But you also have to be comfortable w/ whatever you're doing or the kid may be at physical risk. (And you at 'lawsuit' risk.) And if the parent/kid aren't comfortable w/ your approach, then that's not your problem - and they shouldn't make it your problem - which IMHO is what the parents did here.

My two-cents.

Perry Schmidt

[Daniel Rabinovitz]

Well folks!
You're just finding out the "psychology or teaching"
How do you motivate 22/24 young adults in each class to get up off their chairs and learn some woodworking.
Sometime you hit and sometimes you miss.
But you are always under the scrutiny of the administration and the PARENTS.
What can I tell you ; each of your methods is CORRECT in your mind as to the progression to an end.
That's what I had to do for 30 years -
15 years teaching Metalworking to 5th through 9th grade, boys and girls
15 years teaching Woodworking, Metalworking, Mechanical Drawing, Architectural Drawing, Photography, Home Construction, Home Repair, Technical Education.
Yes - "Industrial Arts" did change over the years and I had to go back to college for a retrofit in "technology".
So best of luck and keep plugging away. What a wonderful experience it is to see the knowledge exhibited by "some" of the students as they greet you - after high school - out on the street.