Need help with wiring

[Mike Baker 2]

Hi,
I'm making a bending iron out of aluminum pipe, a charcoal starter, and a 600 watt, single pole rotary dimmer. What I am doing is wiring the charcoal starter in line with the dimmer switch, and with a power cable that then goes to a power outlet when needed.
The wires coming from the dimmer are green (ground), and two black.
The wires on the charcoal starter, and the 3 prong plug I'm connecting to, are green, white and black.
I have wired them every way I can. I've joined both white wires and connected them to a black, then joined the other black and green wires to their respective colors. I've switched the white wires to the other black, I've wired a white to a black, and the other white to the other black. The only thing I haven't done is connect the green ground wires to one of the other colors, and I don't think that's a good idea.
I get power either way I wire, and the charcoal starter and the pipe heat up. But the dimmer is set up so you can psh it to turn on and off. That function does not work no matter how I wire it, and the dimmer switch does not control the temp; it is full on no matter what I do.
Can anyone help me?

[Pete Taran]

Mike,

I'm not an electrician, but I've done some pretty advanced wiring projects. The thing most people don't realize, is that all switches are wired inline with the black power side only. The only thing different about your switch is that it varies the power in addition to turning it off. So, you would hook one lead of the plug (the side that carries the current which in the plug is the brass side) to one lead of the switch, and then hook a wire to your charcoal starter from the other side of the switch. So, you would have one side of the plug going all the way to your "appliance" with the switch in between. Then, from the other side of the appliance, (the white lead, or the neutral)it would go all the way back to the other side of the plug. You should also hook up the ground if it's a three pronged plug. Once that is done, the switch, when turned on, should allow power to flow through the switch, through the appliance and then back to the box. Remember, all modern wiring takes power and returns it to the ground. That is what causes the electrical potential that makes electrons flow.

Having said all that, you should seek qualified electrician assistance, make sure everything is done to code and grounded properly.

Regards,

Pete

PS, those dimmer switches are designed to vary the power for incandescent lights which is not a lot of current. It could be that you burned out the rheostat and the only thing that works now is the switch side. Those rheostats are not designed to carry significant amount of current. I think the most is 10 amps, but it will say on the switch what the max current load is

[Mike Baker 2]

Thanks, Peter.

[Pete Taran]

Let us know if it works after trying what is suggested above.

[Pat Barry]

Black from power cord to black on dimmer then other black from dimmer to black on the charcoal starter. Other side, white on power cord to white on charcoal starter. This is a standard series connection. Green from power cord is unused. Note: green is the "ground" wire. It is tied to white (neutral) inside your fuse box. Green can be tied to metal enclosure if you have one.

[Jim Koepke]

As one who has worked on electrical things almost all of my life my suggestion is to not mess with this. As Pete said find someone who knows what they are doing.

Do you know the wattage of your charcoal starter? If it is greater than 600W your dimmer has likely been toasted.

Dimmer switches are made to work with lights, not heating elements.

Even as someone who knows what they are doing, the occasional live voltage has found me. Just my luck that electricity hasn't killed me. Part of it is practicing safe procedures when working around 'hot' circuits. The same procedures should be followed around non-energized circuits.

jtk

[Mike Baker 2]

Thanks, gentlemen. I posted this across several forums and getting the same instructions.
Jim, 500w starter, 600w dimmer.

[Mike Baker 2]

I'll keep you posted, guys.
Worse comes to worse, the pipe is thick walled aluminum. I'll plug it straight in, let it heat up, and unplug, bend some, etc., etc. Or I'll tear everything apart and shove a propane torch in the back end.

[John C Cox]

What you need here is a cheap router speed controller (typically available at Harbor Freight).

[Mike Baker 2]

OK, gentlemen, thanks.
I have it wired green from starter and power cord to green on dimmer, black from one side of dimmer to black at power cord, black from other side of dimmer to black of starter, white from power cord to white from starter.
It is getting hot, but very slowly, with the dimmer wide open. I can still wrap my hand around it after 10 minutes or so, and the element hasn't begun to glow. I had to stop because of rain(outdoors). Should it take this long to heat up?

[Mike Baker 2]

What you need here is a cheap router speed controller (typically available at Harbor Freight).

I have thought of that, and HF is half hour away. But the dimmer is $8, the speed controller $20. Thought I'd try this first.

[Mike Henderson]

OK, gentlemen, thanks.
I have it wired green from starter and power cord to green on dimmer, black from one side of dimmer to black at power cord, black from other side of dimmer to black of starter, white from power cord to white from starter.
It is getting hot, but very slowly, with the dimmer wide open. I can still wrap my hand around it after 10 minutes or so, and the element hasn't begun to glow. I had to stop because of rain(outdoors). Should it take this long to heat up?

Run a couple of tests. Plug your heater directly into an outlet and see how quickly it heats up. If it heats up quickly, hook an incandescent light bulb to your dimmer and see if it lights up properly and can be dimmed (you want a bulb that will draw a decent amount of power, not an LED). If both work, I'd say get the router control and try that.

Mike

[Mike Baker 2]

Thanks, Mike.
If I wire the charcoal starter directly to the power cord, it glows cherry red.
The problem is when I try to wire it to the dimmer.
Short of cash(real short), which is why I tried the $8 dimmer as opposed to the $20 speed control. I will keep plucking along. If I get it, fine, if not, next week I'll take a trip to HF and pick up a speed control.
It is just a bit frustrating. This should be a simple wiring job. I cannot understand why I cannot grasp it.
I have my body mold, my practice sides. All I need is the hot pipe and I can start learning to bend sides. Meh.

[John C Cox]

It may be worth posting a question over on the Power tools forum asking for advice on a cheap reliable router controller. A quick check on Amazon shows they run about $20 like you said....

Your charcoal lighter pulls 5 amps (600w/120v = 5a). What is your dimmer rated for?

[David L Morse]

You may have fried the triac in the dimmer with your random wiring experiments and there's just enough current flow left through the control circuit to warm the heater. Do as Mike suggested and test the dimmer with an incandescent lamp. If the dimmer's bad it's your choice whether to risk another $8 on a new dimmer or go for the $20 option. Personally I would go with the new dimmer.

[Mike Baker 2]

Thanks, John. My Charcoal starter pulls 500 watts, according to the specs written on it. The dimmer switch is rated for 600 watts.
But I think I know what happened. I have wired this about 4 different ways, maybe five. The first time I wired it up, when I plugged it in, it sparked at the outlet. I checked that the breaker wasn't tripped, and thought no more of it. I think I fried it the first time I plugged it in, and have been working with a dead dimmer the whole time.
I might grab another here locally at Lowes, and wire it up correctly this time; see how that works. Worth a try before I run in to Winchester for the router control. If that fails, I will pick up the router speed control when I can.
I have what I think is a bad hub bearing in my vehicle. I just replaced the front left axle, now this. Can't make that trip just yet. Lowes is three miles away.

[Mike Baker 2]

You may have fried the triac in the dimmer with your random wiring experiments and there's just enough current flow left through the control circuit to warm the heater. Do as Mike suggested and test the dimmer with an incandescent lamp. If the dimmer's bad it's your choice whether to risk another $8 on a new dimmer or go for the $20 option. Personally I would go with the new dimmer.

It won't even heat up at all now, so safe to say it's done. I know the starter is good, the only other thing it could be is the dimmer. In my situation, if I want to get moving with the guitar build, I'll go get another dimmer. I have read on several threads that the dimmers work just fine for this, but they are old threads. I can't find anything new enough to ask questions on. Everyone has gone to heating blankets. Not in my financial reach right now. Besides, I want to learn to bend over a pipe. If I have to, I'll break out the propane, but I'd rather not.

[Bill Dufour]

You have to bend the heater before it has ever been heated up. bend the tube to the desired shape before ever plugging it in. The cement type insulation can be moved and stay intact until it is cured by heat. Once it has reached full temperature it will crack and break if reshaped. this may cause short circuits to the grounded shell.
This was true several years ago and I assume the insulation material has stayed he same.
Bill D

[Mike Baker 2]

You have to bend the heater before it has ever been heated up. bend the tube to the desired shape before ever plugging it in. The cement type insulation can be moved and stay intact until it is cured by heat. Once it has reached full temperature it will crack and break if reshaped. this may cause short circuits to the grounded shell.
This was true several years ago and I assume the insulation material has stayed he same.
Bill D
Yes. this is the way it was done.

[John C Cox]

The first light dimmer - if it worked - awesome... But it didn't.... Maybe the wiring was wrong.... Maybe something else.

If you can get on with propane for this build - great...

If not.... I recommend you cut losses and go with the router controller. Otherwise - you risk throwing good money after bad.... Buying your second one puts you basically the same price as buying the router controller... Maybe less once you count the junction box, face plate, and the extension cord you must have sacrificed....

Maybe it will be fine... But I have gone down this route too many times...

[Kev Williams]

Have you ever noticed your electric stove, be it a cal-rod or ceramic coils, that the burners don't work at 60 or 80% power? What they do is cycle on and off at 100% power. I'm not electrically inclined enough to know why, but I figure that if a simple rheostat would work, they'd use them on stoves... but they don't!

Only other way I can think of to vary the power output of a heating element is via a variable voltage transformer to vary the input voltage...

[Mike Henderson]

Have you ever noticed your electric stove, be it a cal-rod or ceramic coils, that the burners don't work at 60 or 80% power? What they do is cycle on and off at 100% power. I'm not electrically inclined enough to know why, but I figure that if a simple rheostat would work, they'd use them on stoves... but they don't!

Only other way I can think of to vary the power output of a heating element is via a variable voltage transformer to vary the input voltage...

The problem with a simple rheostat is that quite a bit of power is dissipated in the rheostat when you turn the burner down. What most modern controls do is change the waveform - that is, it blocks the power for part of the cycle. But those controls are probably somewhat expensive for the amount of power needed by a stove burner, so they go with a simple off/on control, as you described.

Mike

[Mike Baker 2]

Wanted to report back. I bought another dimmer, and everything is working like it should now. Apparently, I fried the first one.
But...I tried running it wide open. The Cumpiano book says if the water "dances" on the pipe, the heat is right, and if it instantly turns to steam it's too hot.
Run wide open, water sprayed on it instantly turns to steam. However, I bent a 1/8" by about 1/2" wide strip of cherry I had laying around, intended for binding years ago. It went really well, no scorching or burning, and in my limited experience Cherry scorches easily. I know a 4" wide side is a lot different, but I think it's good with or without temp control. We shall see.
Thank you to everyone who offered help and advice. It was greatly appreciated.

[Mark Walden]

Check with the appliance shop and get a rheostat for stove top burner that might work better than a dimmer.

[Mike Baker 2]

Wanted to post this. The bender in action.


https://youtu.be/PKMMLZr7P0Y

[daryl moses]

Great video Mike I really enjoyed it. Glad you got it sorted out and running!

[Mike Baker 2]

Thanks, Daryl!

[Pat Barry]

Thanks Mike. I was curious about how it would be used. Nice work.

[Mike Baker 2]

Thanks, Pat!