Table saw as router table - router fence considerations

[Dean Moldenhauer]

Hey, all.
i know there is a bit of a house divided on using your table saw as a router table, but that is the direction I’m heading as I put my shop tool purchase list together.

i am likely going with a 3 HP Sawstop Professional, but still have to decide on a 36” vs. 52”. I don’t plan on doing a ton of sheet good breakdown on the saw as I have a good track saw and the room to have that set up on a work table. Considering that, do you think the 36” would be sufficient or would you go with the 52”? This is mostly with consideration of the fact that I plan on using it as a router table as well. I have the room, so that’s not really the driving factor.

Next, I am not quite clear on how the router fences work (attach) with a table saw rail system. Are they all different and all require some type of modification? Are they dependent on the cast iron table insert you select? I could just go with entire SawStop system, now that they have expanded into the router world (cast inserts, lifts, fences, etc), but I think there are some parts of the system where I prefer other manufacturers’ offerings. For example, I’m pretty sure I’m going to go with a Jess Em Master Lift II, not the SawStop lift. There are also some fences from others (like Jess Em) that I like...just not sure how they flange up with the SawStop rails.

So, what are your experiences/observations? I am continuing to research this but thought I would see if I could learn from y’alls experience as well.

thanks,
Dean

[Mike Cutler]

Dean

Installing a router into a table saw is something that can be very inexpensive, to $1k+ depending on what you want to do.

If I were to ever go back to installing a router into a table saw extension wing, it would only be using a cast iron extension wing designed for it. Something like a Bench Dog. The bench dog cast iron wing uses it's own fence that requires no alteration to your table saw rails.
There are also the Incra fence systems which are incredible pieces of machinery.They also run the gamut from providing a stand alone router fence, to a fully integrated package that replaces your existing OEM fence. They're "cadillac" systems, measured by any standard.
if you have the room, I would take 52" over 36". Not for cutting sheet goods so much as providing support for longer pieces of material, while performing crosscuts.
I use a shaper, so I haven't kept up on what's really out there these days for router tables. I'm sure that other folks will give you a ton of info.

[Dean Moldenhauer]

Thanks for the reply, Mike.
cast iron extension wings are definitely on my must-have list - I should have mentioned that. I have seen the bench dog version as well as the SawStop offering. Both of those look like very good quality. If I go with the 52” SawStop table, I would really like to replace the entire wooden table portion with cast iron elements.

I fully expect to be running into the $1k + territory between the cast extension, lift, fence and dust collection box. I will also be purchasing a router motor. That is another thing I will be doing more investigation into... Sawstop has an offering with the variable speed motor and an externally mounted speed control knob and shutoff switch. Just hasn’t been out long enough to find any reviews or for people to get a good handle on the actual manufacturer... will be combing the ‘net for info there as it comes in.

I guess I just need to continue to research what elements of the system are most important to me and try to build out from there. I will look again at what Incra has. I believe they have their version of the Jess Em Master Lift II that I might prefer because of the magnetically held rings. I will look closer to see what they offer for fences and if anything in the cast table inserts...can’t remember if I saw those from Incra.

I am definitely leaning toward the 52” table, better to have it and not really need it... you know :).

Finally, a stand-alone router table is not completely out of the question. I just thought that, with the investment in a large, high-quality table saw and table, I should take advantage of it and integrate the router into it. With the type of projects I expect I will be doing, I don’t think I will have to to a full-size shaper setup... but who knows.

thanks again for the input. I will go back to the studying up/shopping.

Dean

[Nick Decker]

"I believe they have their version of the Jess Em Master Lift II that I might prefer because of the magnetically held rings."

Yes they do, and it is wonderful.

[Cary Falk]

I am not a router in a table saw kind of guy. I prefer all my machines separate. That being said I would go with a cast iron router table top whether stand alone or in a tablesaw. I have a home made router table but haven't used it since I got a shaper. I would also go with a 52" fence on the table saw since you have the room. If nothing else it makes a great staging area if you can keep it uncluttered.:) I had a 52" and sold it with the saw it cam with it. I now have a 26" fence which is on my Grizzly. I have shifted it and now have about 33".

[Bert McMahan]

If you're buying a router and lift anyway, check out the Triton router- you can adjust its height through the baseplate. It's worth a look.

[Dean Moldenhauer]

Thanks, Nick. That seems to be the consensus. It certainly looks well built.

Thanks, Cary. If I do go with the router in the table saw, I will definitely be replacing the wood/melamine with cast iron. In fact, that might be something I do even if I decide to go with a stand alone router table. I just like the idea of the heft and stability. As far as the 52”, that’s definitely the way I’m leaning. Once I get my tractor out of the shop and into its own shelter, space will not be an issue.

Bert, thanks for the reminder about the Triton. To be honest, I had never hear of/seen triton until I saw April Wilkersons YouTube videos. Then, seems like I heard about them everywhere - especially their routers. Am I right that they were much more popular in Europe and/or Australia? They seem to get good comments and reviews. I had mostly been considering the Porter Cable for the stand alone router motor, but am also very curious about the router motor with the remote speed control that SawStop has just made available fairly recently. I have an older Bosch 1613evs router and a new Mikita cordless trim router, but neither of those would work in the lift, so a-shopping I must go :D.

thanks again, guys, for the advice. I anticipate a study session tonight to start getting this nailed down a bit more. I have an electrical upgrade project to do in the shop before I get too carried away, but it won’t stop me from starting to procure...

Dean

[Bert McMahan]

I haven't used one yet so I can't say.

I do know you can get router speed controls on Amazon for like $20 though so I wouldn't worry too much about the SS remote speed control.

[scott spencer]

A built in router table on a table saw is a great space saver for those in dire need of the space, but there are disadvantages compared to a stand alone unit. If you have the space, there's no question....get separate station.

[andy bessette]

My router table is itself an old repurposed table saw top attached to my Unisaw, so I can use the Unifence on it as well. Been that way for decades and I would never change it. Uses an ancient 3-1/2 hp Stanley router.

https://s26.postimg.cc/47munt0p5/shop-1.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[Steve Demuth]

I have a Bench Dog cast iron router table and lift as the right wing on my table saw. I like it. There are disadvantages to be sure - any router setup seriously limits the table saw after all. But for all that, given my space limitations, I find it a highly viable setup. If I had the space, I'd go standalone, but as an amateur, don't really lose enough flexibility to sweat it.

[Terry Therneau]

I use an old Delta shaper as my outfeed, solid and heavy, and have a router wing attached to it. I made my own (bench dog wasn't around yet) but would use theirs if doing it again. The Incra fence is mounted to a piece of 1/2 inch ply, and held in the miter slots using fingerboard hardware. It's also the fence for my 26" Moak bandsaw. The fence is very easy to attach and detach --- if for some reason I need to pause the routing task to run just one more table saw cut it's off and on in a trice AND it holds the position perfectly. (And yes, that happens too often.) The router bit is not in the way for a saw cut of < 12".
For those looking closely, my tablesaw, shaper, etc are up on a 5" pedestal as I like them a bit taller. A single 6" dust collection pipe connects to the underneath space. The table saw has an overhead mounted shark guard which is folded up in the photo.

Terry T.

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[Dean Moldenhauer]

Thanks, guys. I appreciate the feedback, experiences and ideas.

I had the tractor out yesterday and was doing some measuring while the shop was empty. While I would have room for a separate router table, I am more and more convinced that I will combine. I have 1/4 of the 900 sq. feet set up with tool boxes and workbenches. Another 1/4 has wood racks around the perimeter that stick into the workspace a bit. If I use the opposite corner as a layout table area, that means the remainng area will be reserved for the table saw and possible out feed table. Sprinkle in room for a band saw and drill press and I’m going to start getting a little tight on space. It looks like a lot of room right now, but I know it will fill up fast.

Another question about the router that will go into the router table. Whether I am looking at the Dewalt, Porter Cable or Triton, I believe they are all variable speed (and likely soft start). The way I understand it, that rules out any speed control device as they are not compatible with the soft start and variable speed circuitry on board those routers. So, am I stuck changing the speed on the router itself on the occasions where a different speed is necessary? Not a big deal except it will be in an inconvenient location under the table and inside a dust collection box.

this is making the Jess Em router with the integral remote variable speed/shutoff switch and umbilical look a bit more appetizing. If only I knew more about the pedigree of the Jess Em router... basis the quality of their stuff, I would like to believe the router they source would be good quality, but hard to research.

What I’m talking about from Jess Em is the Pow R Tek... any thoughts or info on where that router comes from?

I'm trying to avoid paralysis by analysis here, but would like to do as much right the first time as possible. In the end, I am just a hobbyist, so no income-producing skin off my nose if I make a couple of less-than-perfect choices, but would like to minimize the “D’OHH!!” moments. :) I’m sure you all understand.

Dean

[Bruce Page]

If you have the room go with the 52”. I don’t use mine that often but it is nice to have when you need it.
I have 2 routers in my Unisaw. It’s a good use of space in a crowded shop..(see pic :)).
I’m not sure if they make them anymore but my Woodhaven router fence simply clamps on to my Bies fence. It takes only a few seconds to mount and works great on either lift.

[Chris Parks]

The Jessem motor is also known as the AUK motor made by Swiss Tech in China and I doubt it it has any connection with Switzerland! The first generation was a failure and it was pulled from sale due to a badly designed speed controller but the present generation has no reported problems and has been on sale for at least a year.

You can use a CNC spindle with VFD instead of a router motor, it has a far better duty cycle, uses ER colletts, is very quiet when compared to any router, braking can be used to slow the router bit quicker and the VFD control panel can be mounted above the table. In the Aussie WW forums there is a current thread concerning CNC spindles and the fence and lift will be automated with keyed in target dimension on a touch screen.

Here is a CNC spindle featured in Popular WW some years ago. https://www.popularwoodworking.com/projects/aw-extra-8912-shop-made-router-lift.

[Dean Moldenhauer]

Thank you, Chris. That gives me some more to go on. The idea of the cnc spindle and VFD sounds intriguing, but I’m not sure what kind of Pandora’s box I’m opening there with the upside-down orientation, water cooling, etc. I will do some more web-surfing to see what I can find on that application. Sounds like it’s a lot quieter which is one of the main benefits.

Seems like the AUK/Swiss Tec has been used quite a bit in Australia and the UK (hence the name I guess). So are the actual router motors pretty good and this was just a problem with the speed control, or are the router not so great from the start.

When it comes down to it, I likely won’t be changing speeds all that often, so easy accessibility to the speed control maybe isn’t that big a deal. Seems like tons of people use these routers (PC, DeWalt, Triton) in their tables every day without the access being a big deal. I’ve got some time, I’ll keep checking things out and see what I decide on.

thanks again for the help,

Dean

[Dean Moldenhauer]

Forget to mention, Bruce... nice setup. Looks like it serves you well. I’m pretty sure I’m going with the 52”...particularly since I’m leaning heavily toward integrating the router into the right side table. Can’t go wrong with that extra space.

Dean

[Mike Wilkins]

The 36" will be fine, especially since you have a track saw to break down sheet goods. I have the same 36" capacity with my table saw; however I am spoiled as I also have a short-stroke sliding table saw. No problem cross cutting sheet goods; not so good for ripping 8 footers.

[Nick Decker]

Dean,

FWIW, I recently added one of the Incra dust cabinets under my router table and had the same initial misgivings about it being a hassle to change speed settings on the router. Turns out it's really a non-issue for me, and I'm old enough that I don't bend as well as I used to. Takes longer to consult my chart to confirm which speed I need to plug in. This is on the PC 7518 router motor, I don't know about the others you've mentioned.

There was a discussion here recently that included the rather new Jessem router you mentioned. At least a couple of us are in kinda the same boat as you, in that there just isn't enough known about it yet and we're waiting to hear more. I emailed Jessem and all they would say was that it was made to their specs, which were roughly based on a Milwaukee router that they used to sell with one of their packages. I'm not sure what to make of that, in light of Chris's comments about the AUK router.

I'd love for you to buy one and give us your impressions! :)

[Dean Moldenhauer]

Nick,
Thanks. That feedback on the dust enclosure is helpful. Would love to hear/read more about how you like that setup. So, do you have it mounted in a separate router table or are combined with your table saw? The reason I ask is because I’m not sure about how to mount that box under the table if it’s not mdf. It looks like it is held in place by screwing into the underside of the table, which won’t be an option for a cast table extension on a table saw. Maybe I should make a call to Incra and SawStop and ask them directly. If I do and I get answers, I’ll post here in case anyone is interested.

you never know, Nick. I might just roll the dice and be the guinea pig. Although, I’m not exactly a power user so my impressions would likely not be as valuable as someone who puts the rig through its paces and has a lot of experience to compare it to.

Mike,
that is still in question a little bit... 36” vs 52”. The thing is, it’s only $100 difference, plus the cost of an additional cast table piece. I do have room, although economizing on space is something I should be thinking about. Like I mentioned, it will fill up fast.
its funny because there are 2 distinct camps... those that say the 52” is a must and those that are perfectly happy with the 36”. I guess I need to evaluate what I will most likely be doing in the shop in my retirement. It won’t be anything commercial. Breaking down sheet goods will mostly be for structures around the “farm”. I plan on having a layout table of sorts where I can set up the foam board and make sheet-good cuts with the track saw.

hmmmm, more questions...:)

Dean

[Nick Decker]

Dean,

My set-up is as follows: Woodpeckers' table and fence, with the addition of the WP precision fence adjuster. The table is MDF, layered onto a sheet of 3/4" Baltic birch plywood. After a couple years of seasonal temp/humidity changes, I see no signs of any flatness problems or sag. The PC 8518 sits in an Incra/Jessem MastRLift II.

The WP router fence dust collection port was OK, but not great, and pretty much useless for bottom cuts like grooves and such, so I added the Incra dust box underneath. At that time, I only had a 1 hp portable dust collector, but even that did a good job of getting almost all of the dust from those kinds of cuts. I've since upgraded to a 2 hp DC, and it's gotten even better. Surprisingly, there's enough air flow from below to deal with what I used to have to use the fence dust port for. When I open the access door on the box, it's spotless in there. (Side note: I ordered the complete set of slotted metal Magnalock inserts with mine, and I find them unnecessary. I only use the largest, most open one and it works for whatever size bit I'm using. Maximum airflow = good.)

I don't know about mounting one of them to cast iron, but I'm guessing Incra can help you there.

36" vs. 52": Before my purchase of the 36" PCS, I was looking into ways to cut down the premium fence rails to 30", as my space is pretty limited (single car garage). Again, a non-issue. I just no longer keep my car in the garage, problem solved! Hindsight, I could've even gone with the 52" fence, but I'm glad I didn't. That much flat area, for me, is a clutter magnet and I know myself well enough to know I'd abuse it.

[Dean Moldenhauer]

Nick, that Woodpeckers setup sounds nice. I was looking at those , Incra and some others before I started really leaning towards integrating into the table saw. The Magnalock option is why Ithink I have settled on Incra’s version of the MastRLift II. All things being equal between that and the straight Jess Em version, why not go with that option. Now, if it had been all gold anodized, that might have driven me back away from Incra :D. Interesting about the use of the rings. I had expected to order the entire set as well...may rethink that.

i suffer from the same tendencies with the clutter magnet, but the 52” might mean a single layer of cr@p instead of 2... easier to find what I need... I am getting better about that though. Used to be really bad when my garage served as my shop...always had too much stuff piled on the workbench. Better about it now in my dedicated shop, although the garage workbench still is covered (one of the tasks on my list while on vacation).

i just called SawStop about a couple of things, one of which being how to attach their version of the dust collection box to the underside of the castrouter table extension. The person helping me didn’t seem to really understand what I was talking about at first, she thought I was talking about mounting it under the pine/melamine table extension. Once she understood that I was talking about the cast iron version, she suggested that just screwed to the underside of the wing. I said there would have to be threaded bosses cast into the wing for that to be the case and she seemed to imply there was...I’m still not so sure so will have to investigate further.

UPDATE: I took a look at the manual for the SawStop cast router table extension and dust collection box. It does indeed appear that there are threaded bosses cast into the underside of the table to accept the screws that hold the DC box. I guess that’s the benefit of buying a “system” from a single manufacturer. I will check out the Incra offering to see if it looks like they do the same thing... just to keep my options open.

thanks for the info,

Dean

[Nick Decker]

Just to be clear, these are the rings I'm talking about:

https://www.incrementaltools.com/INCRA_6_pc_CleanSweep_MagnaLOCK_Ring_Set_p/inc-csmlringset.htm

If using the regular rings without the Clean Sweep cabinet, the full set is useful.

As far as separate router tables go, the WP table/fence combo has been excellent for me, no complaints. If I had it to do over I think I'd look more closely at the Incra system. Or, maybe I'm just a tool junkie.

[Dean Moldenhauer]

Yep, those are the rings I was thinking of. I’ve watched a few videos of them in use. They make sense and seem to work as designed with the cabinet. I may end up with the SawStop version of the DC enclosure, but since I will be using the Jess Em/Incra router lift, I assume the rings will provide the same benefit.

Dean

[Robert Stanton]

Looks like you've gotten lots of input. Some of which is beyond my skill level. My setup might be less expensive and simpler. I use a cast iron insert with a JessEm lift. PC7518 with a SuperPID speed controller. My fence is VSCTools with an 80/20 extrusion that serves both the saw and the router. This is less convenient but conserves space. https://sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=386975&d=1527890760

[Chris Parks]

Thank you, Chris. That gives me some more to go on. The idea of the cnc spindle and VFD sounds intriguing, but I’m not sure what kind of Pandora’s box I’m opening there with the upside-down orientation, water cooling, etc. I will do some more web-surfing to see what I can find on that application. Sounds like it’s a lot quieter which is one of the main benefits.

Seems like the AUK/Swiss Tec has been used quite a bit in Australia and the UK (hence the name I guess). So are the actual router motors pretty good and this was just a problem with the speed control, or are the router not so great from the start.

When it comes down to it, I likely won’t be changing speeds all that often, so easy accessibility to the speed control maybe isn’t that big a deal. Seems like tons of people use these routers (PC, DeWalt, Triton) in their tables every day without the access being a big deal. I’ve got some time, I’ll keep checking things out and see what I decide on.

thanks again for the help,

Dean

Dean, I will PM you a link to an ongoing thread in the Aussie forums as the archaic rules on linking here do not allow me to post it and you can't argue with a brick wall.

The link goes to a router table one of the members made about 12 months ago. It uses a conventional router and has totally eliminated dust extraction issues which is a first as far as I am aware. I have recently excavated that thread as it was always the OP's intention to use a CNC spindle instead of a router. There are air cooled spindles that do a good job with no issues and simplify things as well. The big advantage of using a spindle is that you save a truck load on the lift as it is not needed due to side mounting of the spindle and the top becomes far simpler and can be lifted. Ignore the talk of the digital control of fences and lifts if that is not your thing and just use a typical manual control. The AUK motor came about (I think) due to there being no 240V router motors available for the rest of the world to use so I am not surprised that its existence is not known in the US, you guys simply don't need it.

[Dean Moldenhauer]

Robert... simple is good... at this point, I’ll take a dose of simple :),

You may not realize it, but you said a mouthful and bring up a very interesting question... since the PC75182 router has a soft-start and variable speed on-board, how does it behave with your external speed controller? A number of speed controllers I’ve looked at, as well as a post/article I’ve read warn against pairing an external speed controller with a router that has integral soft-start and variable speed. I have heard it stated as putting a computer ahead of another computer which, theoretically, can mess up the circuitry on-board the router that does the soft start and speed variation.

So, maybe that’s all theoretical and, in practice, there’s nothing to be concerned about. I assume ivy has all been working for you and your router has not been releasing any odd-colored smoke...:D. if this is the case, it would sure make that part of my plans much easier.

I would be interested in hearing some others as well - either for some additional information on why this should not be done, or to tell me it’s much ado about nothing, everybody does it and it is no problem.

Nice setup, by the way. I would be interested in seeing more pictures. The wraparound outfeed table that incorporates into your router insert and fence rail looks intriguing.

how do you like the VSCT fence?

P.S. I particularly like the most valuable shop tool this time of the year... the FLYSWATTER!! The mosquitoes have made their appearance in force and my legs are showing it.

Dean

[Robert Stanton]

You are correct that any OEM circuitry must be bypassed prior to installing aftermarket devices. I had issues with my PC router speed control. It failed once under warranty and again after I got it repaired. A fellow Creeker recommended the Super PID. I posted my speed control project here. https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?258325-SuperPID-Router-Speed-Control&highlight= I have been mostly happy with the VSCT fence. I'm sure there are better but for my budget I am happy. I need to remember how to upload photos to this site and I will post more cabinet pictures. Indeed the flyswatter is a necessity here in SE Georgia.

[Robert Stanton]

This unit has a 100 amp breaker in its bowels powered via a 20ft 10/4 running into a 220 wall outlet. The saw is wired 220v. The outlets have their own breaker. There is an outlet on the back designated for the dust collection unit. There is vacuum plumbing in the cabinet that services the table saw and the router box. The vacuum outlet turns on via 3-way switches located near the saw switch and another near the router switch. All drawers are Shop Fox bearing sliders. The extension table mates using dowel rods. Holes were drilled through the dowels to capture it to the main table via ball lock pins. The main cabinet has (5) 300# urethane caster swivels. The extension table has 4 of the same for consistency. The hard maple tops are 1 3/4" available from Grainger. If I missed something, please ask.
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[Dean Moldenhauer]

Well... to close out this thread... As I posted in another, separate thread, I pulled the trigger on a stand-alone router table setup. I decided on the JessEm complete setup that uses the Mast-R-Lift Excel II system.

Thanks for all of the input and advice while trying to decide on table saw mounted vs. stand-alone. At this point, I decided that, since I have the room, stand-alone was going to work better for me - at least for my immediate needs. Seems like it offered me a bit more flexibility and will allow me to get a router table employed in my shop immediately rather than waiting until I get my new table saw.

Dean

[Curt Harms]

Dean, I will PM you a link to an ongoing thread in the Aussie forums as the archaic rules on linking here do not allow me to post it and you can't argue with a brick wall.


Chris, not a mod but I think you can post the address of another forum, just don't make it 'clickable'. Same with Ebay, could be wrong though. Keith went into the reason for not posting live links to certain web destinations but it was years ago. It wasn't just being arbitrary.

[Nick Decker]

I would be interested in reading the discussion, too.

[glenn bradley]

Some folks like the full blown Incra LS or a Wonderfence, some are fine with just a piece of scrap and a couple of clamps. I'm in between. My requirements for a router table fence have morphed over the years. Right now my requirements list is something like:

- easily changed out faces for tall, deep or regular support.
- split faces for adjusting to bit or adding a sac-fence section
- t-slots for featherboards and other uses
- dust collection which includes clearance for big or tall bits
- easy adjustability for position

I have had micro adjust options and they are nice but, I don't miss them on my current setup. Often there are features that are irreplaceable for some and not missed by others. Walk through some operations in your mind and see that the fences you are considering meet your needs for those things. Can you add tall faces for vertical routing, does it accept stops for mortising and grooving, will the opening allow a raised panel bit, etc.?

[Chris Parks]

I would be interested in reading the discussion, too.

Google "yet another router table build" - It will be the best router table in the world when finished. Let me put this in context, I am into tech and gadgets but what I mostly like about digital is the repeatability it gives and when we are finished building this we can store the settings for jobs if needed. Having said that none of it is necessary to do good work and I can understand why some would dismiss all the technology going into it because the job can certainly be done without it. The OP of the thread is doing all the programming from scratch to enable a lot of features going into it. He built the original table and we are now taking it a step further and adding the electronic control but if you aren't interested in electrons the original table is still a masterpiece in design and execution.