Will 2020 be the year?

[Rich Engelhardt]

That the US heads towards the metric system?

W/Ford switching over to an almost all truck lineup, that takes a huge chunk of the market off the table.

As it is now, most manufacturing is done overseas where metric is the standard.

What little manufacturing we have left here, really needs to be metric to compete in the export market.

For the record - I don't care one way or the other - since my favorite bar and grill - where I get my every other Tuesday night hot wing and 32 ounce beer - could easily switch to a liter instead of a quart :D :D

[Keith Outten]

IMO it might happen in 2040 but not any sooner, got to get the Baby Boomers well into retirement. We discussed this at length several months ago and I doubt that anything Ford does will have any impact on this issue. Its the machine shops that are the big player, Ford is insignificant.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I don't know Keith, might need to get us gen x guys into retirement too. I can see a hybrid approach already for the stuff I work with, only using metric bolt sizes that also work with a common SAE wrench for example. Pick and choose metric "standard" sizes that way, and the customer barely notices I guess. I'm still anti metric, except when laying out tile.

[Mike Null]

In my view, it's the building trades that are the big Magilla. They ain't going to change.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

In my view, it's the building trades that are the big Magilla. They ain't going to change.

I definitely agree with that. Imagine explaining to your framing crew that instead of 16"oc, the wall is to be 40.6 cm oc. Oh, make sure that the 6 mm is used, otherwise that 4x8 sheet of osb won't fit. No sane person would screw with that system.

[Bill Dufour]

I definitely agree with that. Imagine explaining to your framing crew that instead of 16"oc, the wall is to be 40.6 cm oc. Oh, make sure that the 6 mm is used, otherwise that 4x8 sheet of osb won't fit. No sane person would screw with that system.

But plywood is all metric now. and 2x lumber has been small since the 1950's. I think it is interesting that building codes have not been modified to reflect the metric changes. The plywood for shear walls is actually a mm or so less then required but no one cares. Of course this is similar to using the old span tables that were designed for old growth lumber. But the east and west coast have dis-allowed clipped head nails and I am sure the middle of the country will do the same.
Bill D.

[Jim Becker]

A good chunk of US manufacturing is already metric, including the automotive industry. It's more of what Keith eludes to...getting the mere mortals to convert. I've actually done that for my projects, for the most part, but it remains difficult to "mentally visualize" things with 60+ years using a different system. It's like learning another language...at first, we have to translate word for word in our heads, but eventually through repetition, we (hopefully) get to the point that we think in the other language, too.

[George Bokros]

I definitely agree with that. Imagine explaining to your framing crew that instead of 16"oc, the wall is to be 40.6 cm oc. Oh, make sure that the 6 mm is used, otherwise that 4x8 sheet of osb won't fit. No sane person would screw with that system.

Just size the plywood at 40 cm instead of 48" and the fractional OC measurement problem disappears.

[Bill Dufour]

That the US heads towards the metric system?

W/Ford switching over to an almost all truck lineup, that takes a huge chunk of the market off the table.

My Ford made in 2000 uses weird metric bolts. the heads are like one size smaller then they should be. I guess to save weight. Also Ford did not design it right they use a mix of odd and even size bolt heads. Anyone who has works on metric vehicles knows the fastener shoud be all odd or even size. that way you can look and know what size wrench to use.
I believe Volvo used English fasteners up to the late 70's. Of course Sweden did not switch over to right hand driving until the 1960's but the cars always had the driver on the left.

[Bryan Lisowski]

I have used more metric in woodworking, partly due to buying festool, but for quick and dirty I use standard measurements. The one thing that bothers me is if you are building a cabinet with 16" sides, that is 406.4 mm, you can't locate .4 on any metric tape measure I have used. I know it's a really small amount, but you are basically guessing.

[John Stankus]

I have used more metric in woodworking, partly due to buying festool, but for quick and dirty I use standard measurements. The one thing that bothers me is if you are building a cabinet with 16" sides, that is 406.4 mm, you can't locate .4 on any metric tape measure I have used. I know it's a really small amount, but you are basically guessing.

0.4 mm is pretty close to 1/64 of an inch. How precise do you work? What is the precision of "quick and dirty"?

[Pat Barry]

Just size the plywood at 40 cm instead of 48" and the fractional OC measurement problem disappears.
Those would be pretty narrow sheets of plywood. Not much structural integrity and lots more seams to deal with.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

Frankly, My dear.............

I have done deed descriptions over the years. frankly, acres, perches and rods are about the dumbest system of measurement devised. Maybe it made sense back when corners were the "third black birch from the stream bank" Trees die, stream beds shift. Besides which, I can hear it now. Wait till farmers find out that the North 40 is just 16.187 Hectares. Suddenly it sounds like their farms have shrunk.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

The irony of this is that in the '60s in my HS science classes we were taught and used metric because the US was supposed to go totally metric sometime in the '70s IIRC. The medical field has been metric for quite sometime. It was metric when I got involved in '76.

[Bryan Lisowski]

0.4 mm is pretty close to 1/64 of an inch. How precise do you work? What is the precision of "quick and dirty"?

John, I agree, it really doesn't matter, but it's just more of an annoyance than anything. Quick and dirty is when the GF asks will this cabinet fit into this spot. My answer is grab a tape measure, quickly measure and give the yes or no.

[Rod Sheridan]

I have used more metric in woodworking, partly due to buying festool, but for quick and dirty I use standard measurements. The one thing that bothers me is if you are building a cabinet with 16" sides, that is 406.4 mm, you can't locate .4 on any metric tape measure I have used. I know it's a really small amount, but you are basically guessing.

Bryan, that's why you don't build cabinets with 16" sides, you build them with 410mm sides ( or some other reasonable number).......Regards, Rod.

[Wade Lippman]

I thought it was significant in 1974 when they started selling gasoline in liters. Obviously I was wrong. Now I don't think it will ever happen; Americans seem to delight in being unique, even if that requires them to be inferior.

[Mike Kreinhop]

I've been metric out of necessity for the past 21 years. I'm building my shop miter workstation using the Jay Bates plans as a starting point, and converted his SketchUp dimensions to metric. The overall differences in finished size are slight, and the rack slides he recommended from a U.S. vendor are already metric.

I recently bought a used 2003 U.S. model Ford Ranger from someone who was returning to the States and didn't want to ship it. I was pleased to learn while replacing the clutch that all of the hardware is metric and I don't have to buy a set of SAE tools to maintain it. My other Fords are European models, so one set of tools works for my fleet. Unfortunately, I have to order all of the Ranger parts from the States, since the German dealers don't stock them.

[Jim Koepke]

I was pleased to learn while replacing the clutch that all of the hardware is metric and I don't have to buy a set of SAE tools to maintain it.

If one has a metric wrench set there are only a few SAE sizes they need to purchase.

387804

In some cases like 1/2" and 9/16" it is best to have the SAE and metric wrenches for the equivalents. One 1/2" bolt on the tailgate of my truck is pretty much in need of a six point half inch box wrench when working with it.

One of my American cars appears to be mostly metric and the older truck seems to have a mixture.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

BTW, in 1866 President Andrew Johnson signed into law an act of Congress allowing the metric system to be used in all contracts, dealings and court records.

My recollection is Congress also adopted a resolution in the 1790s to move forward with use of the metric system.

Though there is not a problem for me with the metric system, old dogs like me are going to stick with what is on our tape measure. Why should all my good ones be tossed to only go out and buy a bunch of new ones with different marks? Actually there is one that has been in my pocket almost every day for the last 30+ years that is a bit worn and missing the markings for the first few inches.

jtk

[Pat Barry]

Anyone else but me sick and tired of metric conversion discussions? Seriously, probably the biggest waste of time you can think of as far as I'm concerned. LOL

[Jim Koepke]

Anyone else but me sick and tired of metric conversion discussions? Seriously, probably the biggest waste of time you can think of as far as I'm concerned. LOL

There must be something more wasteful of time, though nothing comes to mind at the moment.

It seems when it comes to metric people are of two minds, those that already use it and those who say, "why bother."

jtk

[Jim Becker]

It seems when it comes to metric people are of two minds, those that already use it and those who say, "why bother."



Absolutely true...for individuals. Manufacturing, science, health care, et al...the conversion is pretty much already done. As I noted earlier, the "assimilation" remaining is really just for us mere mortals. :) Some folks will decide to change, some folks will die before they make the change...

[Scott Donley]

Was it not confusion over imperial or metric that had the Hubble telescope sent up with the wrong grind on the lens making it unusable until a house call in space to fix it ? Opps.

[Chris Parks]

I definitely agree with that. Imagine explaining to your framing crew that instead of 16"oc, the wall is to be 40.6 cm oc. Oh, make sure that the 6 mm is used, otherwise that 4x8 sheet of osb won't fit. No sane person would screw with that system.

As discussed last time, conversion does not work and only leads to confusion and stupid measurements. Imagine saying 400mm centres instead. All building measurements are quoted in mm in Australia and cabinetry has followed suit.

[Chris Parks]

That the US heads towards the metric system?

W/Ford switching over to an almost all truck lineup, that takes a huge chunk of the market off the table.

As it is now, most manufacturing is done overseas where metric is the standard.

What little manufacturing we have left here, really needs to be metric to compete in the export market.

For the record - I don't care one way or the other - since my favorite bar and grill - where I get my every other Tuesday night hot wing and 32 ounce beer - could easily switch to a liter instead of a quart :D :D

it will happen by erosion of the imperial system from the top down. Five years ago it was very hard or impossible to buy tools from US suppliers and manufacturers such as Woodpeckers in metric. Today just about every tool is supplied in both versions which is expensive and doubles up everything.

[Jim Koepke]

Five years ago it was very hard or impossible to buy tools from US suppliers and manufacturers such as Woodpeckers in metric. Today just about every tool is supplied in both versions which is expensive and doubles up everything.

Imagine, in time all of our old yardsticks and tape measures will be collector's items.

jtk

[Chris Parks]

Imagine, in time all of our old yardsticks and tape measures will be collector's items.

jtk

It seems like you think metric is inevitable.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Imagine, in time all of our old yardsticks and tape measures will be collector's items.Hot diggity dog!!! I'm sitting on a fortune w/all the free Harbor Freight tape measures I have!!

[lowell holmes]

Well, I can do metric. As a designer draftsman I had to deal with all measurement systems.
In my shop, there is only feet and inches. I think it is called U.S. Imperial.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

But plywood is all metric now. and 2x lumber has been small since the 1950's. I think it is interesting that building codes have not been modified to reflect the metric changes. The plywood for shear walls is actually a mm or so less then required but no one cares. Of course this is similar to using the old span tables that were designed for old growth lumber. But the east and west coast have dis-allowed clipped head nails and I am sure the middle of the country will do the same.
Bill D.

Bill, I agree, the trades have lots of little goofinesses to deal with, and that's my point. A framer knows how to space studs to fit the standard size products as they exist now. He knows that 3/4 ply is actually a little less, and that a 2x6 is actually not. It's a system that has warts, but works. Throw in a whole new level of craziness by changing the units of measure, and see what happens. Shoot, I make my guys use story sticks as much as possible just to avoid some of the measuring screwups with a measuring system they "understand" already.

George illustrated the problem well when he said "40 cm". This actually has nothing to do with the metric system, it's actually about the industry standards. As the engineers, manufactures, and trades develop and incorporate product into the standard, it doesn't just happen. It's a process that works for each level. If one of those levels finds the product decreases the profit margin, it won't get used. I use Schluter products often, I can buy Kerdi board in several sheet sizes. I lay out tile in metric because it's easier math usually, but I buy the larger 4x8 sheets because they fit the room better and have less waste. Schluter makes the product in Canada, but the sheets raw sizes match building standards (4x8). If they didn't, I wouldn't use it.

[Jim Becker]

I actually prefer buying the 4x8 sheets that are 49x97. :) :D

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I actually prefer buying the 4x8 sheets that are 49x97. :) :D

I take it you mean inches and not mm?:confused::rolleyes::D

[Jerome Stanek]

When I was installing CVS pharmacys we would get some fixture from a Canadian company and their peg board was just a little wider then the Lozier fixture I had to leave almost 1/16 inch for each section It would throw off the other installers as it would not fit when they stated from the wrong end. This was a big problem as those installers were not really carpenters but just a bunch of women and a few flunky guys that were not trained very well. They person that trained them always had them start at the open end and work into a corner. and they never really leveled the fixture and wondered why the shelves wouldn't go in.

[Jim Becker]

I take it you mean inches and not mm?:confused::rolleyes::D
Yea....it was just a reference to "nominal sizing" that had just come up relative to materials. I really do like the extra inch, of course, it's not generally applicable to building materials. Only the "good stuff". :) I do most of my actual measuring in metric at this point, however.

[Rich Engelhardt]

I actually prefer buying the 4x8 sheets that are 49x97.On one hand I like that also - but - on the other hand I don't.
I have two 55" tracks for my track saw & one 42" track.
The single 42" is no good for either 48" or 49", but, a single 55" and the 42" can just fit on a 48"x96" sheet & be usable - it takes a bit of manipulating - but - I've done it several times.
No way no how can those two be used together on a 97" sheet.

In case anyone asks or wonders - - I use the 42" & 55" instead of the two 55" sections because they mate together perfectly. The two 55" don't product a "perfect" cut.



I thought it was significant in 1974 when they started selling gasoline in liters. Obviously I was wrong.I think that was more a failed PR stunt than anything else. That's back when OPEC started to turn the screws on us and people were mad about the price of gas per gallon. Putting up a price per liter instead gave the false impression that gas was cheaper. It failed in a spectacular manner, IIRC.


Anyone else but me sick and tired of metric conversion discussions? Seriously, probably the biggest waste of time you can think of as far as I'm concerned. LOLYeah,,,well,,sort of it is - I tend to agree,,,but,,,recent world events got me thinking about it. It looks like a couple of new players are going to be making a splash in the manufacturing world & both will be metric.

[Tom Stenzel]

I probably mentioned this before but when Dennis Archer was mayor of Detroit, he sent out a directive that all future city contracts were to use metric units only

It was, of course, printed and sent out on 8.5 x 11 inch paper.

It was and as far as I know continues to be ignored.

At the water board we did use red for run and green for off. It dated back to the days of steam and those johnny-come-lately traffic signals just were wrong. It did create a lot of fun for the contractors trying to build us stuff.

-Tom

[Bill Dufour]

I think that was more a failed PR stunt than anything else. That's back when OPEC started to turn the screws on us and people were mad about the price of gas per gallon. Putting up a price per liter instead gave the false impression that gas was cheaper. It failed in a spectacular manner, .[/QUOTE]
I seem to remember that the mechanical gas pumps were unable to price higher then 99.99 cents per gallon. So they had to price by a smaller volume. It did make the pumps about four times faster.
Bill D

[Stewie Simpson]

Of all the countries in the world, only three backwaters still use the archaic Imperial system of weights and measures:



Liberia.
Myanmar (a.k.a. “the country formerly known as Burma”)
United States of America.

[John Lanciani]

Of all the countries in the world, only three backwaters still use the archaic Imperial system of weights and measures:



Liberia.
Myanmar (a.k.a. “the country formerly known as Burma”)
United States of America.



And yet we still manage to have the largest economy in the world, go figure?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

ETA wiki link.

[Rod Sheridan]

Was it not confusion over imperial or metric that had the Hubble telescope sent up with the wrong grind on the lens making it unusable until a house call in space to fix it ? Opps.

No Scott, it was a positioning error during the grinding process that produced the wrong shape optics in the Hubble telescope.

The Mars Climate Orbiter was lost because Lockheed Martin used Imperial units instead of metric.

regards, Rod.

[Jim Koepke]

It seems like you think metric is inevitable.

If you do any work on a modern car, you will likely see a lot of it already is metric.

Our milk is still in gallons, but our soft drinks are sold in both metric and ounce measures.

It may be another century or two before we convert fully to metric. It will be sooner if we go through an economic blunder in the next few years.

jtk

[Steve Rozmiarek]

It looks like a couple of new players are going to be making a splash in the manufacturing world & both will be metric.

I'm curious Rich, who?

[Larry Edgerton]

If someone gives me a house or a door or cabinets to build with metric measurements, that's what I will build. Makes no difference to me.

So far that has not happened.

[Larry Edgerton]

I actually prefer buying the 4x8 sheets that are 49x97. :) :D

You wouldn't if you were sheeting a roof.

[Jim Becker]

You wouldn't if you were sheeting a roof.
Oh, no disagreement there. The building industry will face a challenge on this for sure. But for "in-shop"...I'm all for the extra inch. My CNC actually wants that for the spoilboard, for example.

[Rich Engelhardt]

I'm curious Rich, who?Vietnam and possibly Korea.
Just pure speculation on my part - so - IMHO applies.

[Rod Sheridan]

And yet we still manage to have the largest economy in the world, go figure?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

ETA wiki link.

I don't think having a lousy measurement system has anything to do with the economy:D

In all seriousness, much of what America designs and produces is metric.

It's like Canada, we're metric however most hobbyists still use the Imperial system, at work it's metric. We'll eventually all changeover, my children have never worked in the Imperial system, so once us older folks are gone you'll almost never see Imperial used.

The interesting thing is that the USA went metric for standards many decades ago........Regards, Rod.

Regards, Rod.

[John Lanciani]

I don't think having a lousy measurement system has anything to do with the economy:D

In all seriousness, much of what America designs and produces is metric.

It's like Canada, we're metric however most hobbyists still use the Imperial system, at work it's metric. We'll eventually all changeover, my children have never worked in the Imperial system, so once us older folks are gone you'll almost never see Imperial used.

The interesting thing is that the USA went metric for standards many decades ago........Regards, Rod.

Regards, Rod.

It doesn’t, and I’m a fan of metric. Just rebutting the comment about the US being a backwater.

[Rollie Meyers]

When I was in Germany a few years ago, galvanized pipe was fractional but copper & plastic were metric, which I found unusual, the galvy pipe that is. So some things never change.

[Mike Kreinhop]

When I was in Germany a few years ago, galvanized pipe was fractional but copper & plastic were metric, which I found unusual, the galvy pipe that is. So some things never change.

It's still that way, and no one at any of the hardware stores that I've talked to can explain it. It's the same with automotive wheels and hub caps.

[Bill Dufour]

I belive Ford used water pipe threads for spark plugs in the old days. All other plugs have always been metric. At least once they went to electric plugs.
Edison bulb/fuse threads are metric and always have been. I believe the USA standard is e26 for 26 mm base.
Modern Chemistry and physics was invented in Germany so all that lab equipment has always been metric since 1850 or so when it started. No idea what Germany used before metric.
Bill D.

[Ole Anderson]

There are probably hundreds of millions of recorded legal documents related to land ownership that are, with some exceptions dating back over a hundred years, using foot and decimals of a foot for measurement. That will be hard to undo.

[Bill Dufour]

I can go to OSH and buy metric nuts and bolts but they are almost all packed one to a plastic bag and cost much more then a Imperial one. They have no metric special items like wing nuts, acorn nuts, all thread etc.
Bill

[Chris Parks]

There are probably hundreds of millions of recorded legal documents related to land ownership that are, with some exceptions dating back over a hundred years, using foot and decimals of a foot for measurement. That will be hard to undo.

I don't know how but all countries that have converted have faced all these issues so it is nothing new.

[Tyler A Anderson]

I work in the oilfield, which has it's own interesting units! they are a mixture of imperial and measurements that are just made up. some places in the world work in metric in the oilfield, but they are few and fare between, and I think it will be a long time until there is any traction in changing. What is interesting is when you work in a country that has mixed units.

In my own life, I like miles and gallons feet and inches. I understand the utility of metric, but I just like the imperial measurements. I also have a lot of nice tools that only measure imperial, so that would be inconvenient.

[Steve Peterson]

I thought it was significant in 1974 when they started selling gasoline in liters. Obviously I was wrong. Now I don't think it will ever happen; Americans seem to delight in being unique, even if that requires them to be inferior.

Some stations switched to selling liters of gas when the price went over a 99 cents a gallon and the pumps didn't have enough digits to display $1.00. I hope we don't see the day when it goes over $9.99 a gallon and the process repeats.