Saddle square

[Mark Rainey]

The Lee Valley saddle square looks nice. It looks like you can make one by gluing the edge of a flat piece of wood to the face of another piece of wood then crosscutting at 90 degrees. Anybody make one & is happy with it?

[lowell holmes]

I have one and like it. It is worth the price.

[Simon MacGowen]

The Lee Valley saddle square looks nice. It looks like you can make one by gluing the edge of a flat piece of wood to the face of another piece of wood then crosscutting at 90 degrees. Anybody make one & is happy with it?

Anyone can make their own dovetail squares, saddle squares, any squares in fact. The big question is how flat, straight, accurate or square your end product turns out to be? If you are happy with the degree of tolerance (or the lack of it) of your shop-made tool, you will be happy with it. I did make a saddle square out of a hinge but it has been retired after I received a Veritas' (large size).

Simon

[Don Dorn]

Nothing wrong with the saddle square as that is the route a friend chose. I made my own and they can be pretty accurate. Simply laid out a 10 degree angle on the bench and then drew a line to match on both sides, sanded to the line and it's worked well. Even though I've made standard ones, I threw them away preferring to use the Paul Sellers style. Been happy with that for years. If I hadn't made it, I'd have opted for the LV.

[Frederick Skelly]

I have the smaller LV saddle square (http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=48041&cat=1,42935,42936,50298,48041). It works just fine.

I've also made my own from a small hinge and from wood. It works fine. I like the LV best.

Fred

[Simon MacGowen]

I have the smaller LV saddle square (http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=48041&cat=1,42935,42936,50298,48041). It works just fine.

I've also made my own from a small hinge and from wood. It works fine. I like the LV best.

Fred

I found the hinge copy no match to these guys because of the lack of a relief on the inside corner. $15 is a steal...(not sure if the price is gonna go up with the tariff imposed).

Simon

[Mark Rainey]

Thanks for the advice! Mark

[Derek Cohen]

I have the LV saddle, and it works. However the saddle square that I use all the time is one from Bridge City ... probably the cheapest and most useful tool they made ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/99a47269-6e14-4909-92c2-d96be8043c40_zpsvwjuaamh.jpg

I also made one for a friend many years ago ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/Mike-saddlesquare1-1.jpg

The central feature of these saddles is the articulating joint, which enables it to wrap around corners that are not 90 degrees.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mark Rainey]

Beautiful tool Derek!

[Rob Luter]

I have the LV Small Version. I got it years ago and use it all the time.

[glenn bradley]

I have Lee Valley's. There is some satisfaction in making your own if you want to. I've had them for years and use them enough to where they hang on the outside of one of my wall mounted tool cabinets.

387777

They are still inexpensive enough that I would just pick one up if shop made isn't your thing.

[Bill McDermott]

Mark,

I find that when extended square lines around corners, you know... 90 degree work, the square in my hand works fine. Whatever that is, most often a 4" double square. Saddle squares are great, but not often enough value add to make me stop and go get it.

However, when marking out dovetails, which are not neat 90 degree lines, I find a saddle marker very helpful. But not the normal one. I am talking about a dovetail marker with a hinge that serves to mark out the angled dovetail and the adjacent face in one go. That use of a saddle square really helps me with marking (and sawing) accuracy.

[lowell holmes]

If you want to go cheap, door butts will work.:p

[Simon MacGowen]

Mark,

I find that when extended square lines around corners, you know... 90 degree work, the square in my hand works fine. Whatever that is, most often a 4" double square.

Could you clarify how you can use a double square to do the job of a saddle square (to extend two long lines on two surfaces) in the same efficient manner, assuming this is the kind of double square you had in mind: https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/86401452 ?

Simon

[Al Launier]

I use the Centering Head for my combination square. Works perfectly and at no additional cost.

[Mark Rainey]

I have Lee Valley's. There is some satisfaction in making your own if you want to. I've had them for years and use them enough to where they hang on the outside of one of my wall mounted tool cabinets.

387777

They are still inexpensive enough that I would just pick one up if shop made isn't your thing.


Mark,

I find that when extended square lines around corners, you know... 90 degree work, the square in my hand works fine. Whatever that is, most often a 4" double square. Saddle squares are great, but not often enough value add to make me stop and go get it.

However, when marking out dovetails, which are not neat 90 degree lines, I find a saddle marker very helpful. But not the normal one. I am talking about a dovetail marker with a hinge that serves to mark out the angled dovetail and the adjacent face in one go. That use of a saddle square really helps me with marking (and sawing) accuracy.


If you want to go cheap, door butts will work.:p Interesting information. Lowell that is a good idea - I might look at some butt hinges with a square to see if they are 90 degrees & don’t move from 90 with opening & closing.

[Mark Rainey]

I have Lee Valley's. There is some satisfaction in making your own if you want to. I've had them for years and use them enough to where they hang on the outside of one of my wall mounted tool cabinets.

387777

They are still inexpensive enough that I would just pick one up if shop made isn't your thing.


Mark,

I find that when extended square lines around corners, you know... 90 degree work, the square in my hand works fine. Whatever that is, most often a 4" double square. Saddle squares are great, but not often enough value add to make me stop and go get it.

However, when marking out dovetails, which are not neat 90 degree lines, I find a saddle marker very helpful. But not the normal one. I am talking about a dovetail marker with a hinge that serves to mark out the angled dovetail and the adjacent face in one go. That use of a saddle square really helps me with marking (and sawing) accuracy.


If you want to go cheap, door butts will work.:p Interesting information. Lowell that is a good idea - I might look at some butt hinges with a square to see if they are 90 degrees & don’t move from 90 with opening & closing.

[Warren Mickley]

The Lee Valley saddle square looks nice. It looks like you can make one by gluing the edge of a flat piece of wood to the face of another piece of wood then crosscutting at 90 degrees. Anybody make one & is happy with it?

You don't need a saddle square. It is not a traditional woodworking tool. I was working wood for more than 35 years before I heard of one. The 1984 Lee Valley catalog has 154 pages and no saddle square. The 1995 Garrett Wade catalog has 176 pages, lots of squares, no saddle square.

The Lee Valley saddle square page today says:

"Transferring a line from one surface to another perpendicular surface with a small square is never easy.
Try wrapping this line around all faces and you'll see how far off you can be."

This is pure rubbish. If you cannot do it easily and accurately you don't know how to use a square.

[Chris Parks]

You don't need a saddle square. It is not a traditional woodworking tool. I was working wood for more than 35 years before I heard of one. The 1984 Lee Valley catalog has 154 pages and no saddle square. The 1995 Garrett Wade catalog has 176 pages, lots of squares, no saddle square.

The Lee Valley saddle square page today says:

"Transferring a line from one surface to another perpendicular surface with a small square is never easy.
Try wrapping this line around all faces and you'll see how far off you can be."

This is pure rubbish. If you cannot do it easily and accurately you don't know how to use a square.

Why are you so critical and dismissive of other peoples choices?

[Bill Dindner]

Why are you so critical and dismissive of other peoples choices?
He was a little rough, but I think it’s a good point and worth mentioning. I have a woodpeckers version, happy with it, but it’s a luxury tool

[Kees Heiden]

Yeah I think it’s not bad that in these kind of threads someone just bluntly sais: you don’t need this. That would save some people some money, who might otherwise be lured into it. Of course that doesn’t mean that someone else can’t find it usefull anyway.

[Derek Cohen]

The fact that it is "not a traditional tool" is irrelevant. All that counts is whether a tool works for you.

Saddle square do not just aid in marking around corners, but dovetail saddle squares are useful for marking dovetails as well.

There are so many ways to do things. If you find a saddle square useful, get one. I consider a saddle square to be very useful and use one frequently.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[James Pallas]

I have found that saddle squares are too short on the long leg and too long on the short leg for my use. When I mark for length I usually tick mark on the corner of the face and face edge with a knife. I keep my 6" double square set at about 3/4" on one end. I mark the edge first than roll the work flat on the bench. This is where I have trouble with the saddle square. The short leg hits the bench and if your work is wider than 2" the saddle won't reach. I than reach for my double square. May just as well use the double from the start. I'm sure others work differently and would find saddle squares useful.
Jim

[Pat Barry]

I have the smaller LV saddle square (http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=48041&cat=1,42935,42936,50298,48041). It works just fine.

I've also made my own from a small hinge and from wood. It works fine. I like the LV best.

Fred
On the larger square shown in Fred's link, the square has a transverse hole on the knuckle of the corner. What is the purpose of that hole? Anyone know?

[Simon MacGowen]

This is pure rubbish. [/FONT][/COLOR]

I like your display of confidence, and your warning of luring (now removed). There are a lot of woodworkers (not necessarily beginners) who follow others blindly. Some mistaken having a lot of fancy tools for having good skills. This is partly why gadgets like a dedicated leather tool to just tighten bolts exist (it is nuts!).

There is a grain of truth to your statement that one does not need a saddle square (or, by implication, a dovetail square, etc.). A lot of the tools we have in the shop are there because of convenience. Saddle squares belong to the "Wants" dept.

Anyone who does not want to spend $15 or so and plans to make one out of hinges needs to be choosy. Many hinges are poorly made and won't work...good hinges however can cost more than $15 and still don't work as well as a properly made saddle square.

As for the suggestion of using a regular square as a saddle square, I consider it a "pound foolish, penny wise" idea. Doable but no fun, and fun is what I look for in my woodworking. I can use a 1/8" chisel to do any work required of a 1" chisel, but would I?

Simon

[andy bessette]

...If you cannot do it easily and accurately you don't know how to use a square.

Rubbish.

When transferring a line to a surface which is not perpendicular, or when there is a very large bullnose radius on the intervening corner, a hinged saddle square is most helpful, where most regular squares are not.

[bridger berdel]

The skill needed to transfer a line around a corner isn't hard to develop, and applies to tons of other layout and measurement operations. Nothing *wrong* with having a saddle square, but to me at least it's a gadget. I have too many tools to store and organize to want to add gadgets.

I have used hinges to mark square when laying out said hinges on a door, as said hinge was in my hand and square enough (by definition) for the task at hand. Don't think I've ever reached for a hinge over a square, though.

[lowell holmes]

If you had the Lee Valley saddle square, you would treasure it. :)

[James Waldron]

One point to preserve from Warren's post whether you agree with his main point or not:

If you can't go around a board and make the knife lines meet up at each corner, it doesn't much matter whether you use a saddle square, a double square, a combination square or whatever. Either something is wonky with your board (faces out of parallel, twist, etc.) or something is amiss with your technique. And it's possible your "square" isn't. Check your work. Find and fix the source of error.

With that said, I say use the (accurate) square you like and get on with the work.

[Simon MacGowen]

One point to preserve from Warren's post whether you agree with his main point or not:

If you can't go around a board and make the knife lines meet up at each corner,

The quote Warren gave does not necessarily refer to a knife line: "Transferring a line..."

In fact, the Lee Valley photos there show only pencil lines. Knife lines are a different animal and are VERY easy to transfer with a square, esp. with a combo. sq.

Not so much if the lines are pencil lines whether they are 0.7mm or 0.5mm.

So saddle squares are VERY useful for transferring pencil lines and those advocating using a regular square to do that job are missing the point. Anyone who thinks they can outdo me in transferring pencil lines precisely and accurately with their regular squares (or a hinge)...should think twice.

Simon

[Mark Rainey]

Thanks for the wisdom from many experienced woodworkers! The reason I am interested in a saddle square is that I am mitering intersecting muntins & Charles Hayward in Woodworking Joints recommends a unique square I have never seen.387959

[Simon MacGowen]

Dont have that book, and can't tell from your pic if that is a miter template or not. It should not be a saddle square, if the intention is to fine tune a miter joint.

You can make your own miter template or find something like this - http://www.thebestthings.com/newtools/clifton_mitre_templates.htm

Simon

[Warren Mickley]

Thanks for the wisdom from many experienced woodworkers! The reason I am interested in a saddle square is that I am mitering intersecting muntins & Charles Hayward in Woodworking Joints recommends a unique square I have never seen.387959

Yes, that would be a much better use of a saddle square than the Lee Valley people were suggesting. And yes, you can make such a square yourself. I would recommend a nice fine grained hardwood like hard maple, a dense walnut, yellow birch, or the like. Use all the precision you can muster.

I have made that joint many many times, but I use a slightly different system. I have a very small miter box with dovetail saw kerfs at 45 and 90 degrees. To make the slot as shown in C, I mark the slot only on the very back of the muntin stock and put it moulding side down in the miter box. I saw down to the edge of the rabbet (about 3/8), then I roll the stock 45 degrees so I can use the kerf in the back to start the kerf in the side bar. Then I roll another 45 degrees so the muntin is on its side and saw the rest of the way through the side bars. It is nice to have a miter box for small mouldings and the like, but care is need in making a box.

[James Waldron]

The quote Warren gave does not necessarily refer to a knife line: "Transferring a line..."

In fact, the Lee Valley photos there show only pencil lines. Knife lines are a different animal and are VERY easy to transfer with a square, esp. with a combo. sq.

Not so much if the lines are pencil lines whether they are 0.7mm or 0.5mm.

So saddle squares are VERY useful for transferring pencil lines and those advocating using a regular square to do that job are missing the point. Anyone who thinks they can outdo me in transferring pencil lines precisely and accurately with their regular squares (or a hinge)...should think twice.

Simon

In my shop, pencil lines are usually limited to shop furniture and other rough work if at all. For work that counts, I find a knife line is far more effective to get me the precision I need. In your shop, of course, it's up to you.

[James Pallas]

The quote Warren gave does not necessarily refer to a knife line: "Transferring a line..."

In fact, the Lee Valley photos there show only pencil lines. Knife lines are a different animal and are VERY easy to transfer with a square, esp. with a combo. sq.

Not so much if the lines are pencil lines whether they are 0.7mm or 0.5mm.

So saddle squares are VERY useful for transferring pencil lines and those advocating using a regular square to do that job are missing the point. Anyone who thinks they can outdo me in transferring pencil lines precisely and accurately with their regular squares (or a hinge)...should think twice.

Simon
Id like to think I'm pretty quick with a 6" double square because of a simple way a mentor of mine taught me. Always mark going away from you with a pencil. Start with the end of the pencil against the square but over the edge, just the tip of the pencil. When you roll the board you can see the mark and don't have to look over the edge to see it. It's habit now so I don't think about it. Towards you with a knife away with a pencil. When you roll the board to catch the back side from the trued edge you are looking at the line. Easy.
Jim

[Simon MacGowen]

In my shop, pencil lines are usually limited to shop furniture and other rough work if at all. For work that counts, I find a knife line is far more effective to get me the precision I need. In your shop, of course, it's up to you.

Yes, pencil lines can't match knife lines in many cases when it comes to precision, and few would argue about that, except those who are not familiar with their use, or except when machines are used. However, we are here talking about saddle squares, being made of aluminum, to be used mainly with pencils.

Warren has misunderstood the purpose and function of a saddle square when he thought the saddle square was to replace a try square or the like. A saddle square has its role and place in woodworking, and no one has suggested that it can take the place of a square, certainly not in laying out scribed lines. Equally, knife lines don't exist to replace pencil marks.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

Id like to think I'm pretty quick with a 6" double square because of a simple way a mentor of mine taught me. Always mark going away from you with a pencil. Start with the end of the pencil against the square but over the edge, just the tip of the pencil. When you roll the board you can see the mark and don't have to look over the edge to see it. It's habit now so I don't think about it. Towards you with a knife away with a pencil. When you roll the board to catch the back side from the trued edge you are looking at the line. Easy.
Jim

The process you described involves repositioning the square (from one face where the first mark is made) to a second face where the second (perpendicular) line is to be made. Correct?

A saddle square seats well on both faces where two lines are drawn, with no need for any alignment by sight or by anything.

Which method is easier and faster?

Simon

[Mark Rainey]

Dont have that book, and can't tell from your pic if that is a miter template or not. It should not be a saddle square, if the intention is to fine tune a miter joint.

You can make your own miter template or find something like this - http://www.thebestthings.com/newtools/clifton_mitre_templates.htm

SimonThanks Simon. That Clifton mitre template is a beauty.

[Mark Rainey]

Yes, that would be a much better use of a saddle square than the Lee Valley people were suggesting. And yes, you can make such a square yourself. I would recommend a nice fine grained hardwood like hard maple, a dense walnut, yellow birch, or the like. Use all the precision you can muster.

I have made that joint many many times, but I use a slightly different system. I have a very small miter box with dovetail saw kerfs at 45 and 90 degrees. To make the slot as shown in C, I mark the slot only on the very back of the muntin stock and put it moulding side down in the miter box. I saw down to the edge of the rabbet (about 3/8), then I roll the stock 45 degrees so I can use the kerf in the back to start the kerf in the side bar. Then I roll another 45 degrees so the muntin is on its side and saw the rest of the way through the side bars. It is nice to have a miter box for small mouldings and the like, but care is need in making a box. Thanks for the advice Warren. It makes sense.

[Bob Glenn]

I'm probably just a cheap old geezer, but that being said, I am amazed at the geegaws available for purchase that can (and maybe should) be made in the shop. I guess I've always just made do with what I've had around the shop or figured out an alternative solution to the problem at hand. Just my take, sorry if this offends.

[Mike Henderson]

Inspired by Derek's hinged saddle square, I went to the shop and made one. I discovered that locating the hole for the pivot is critical. Any error in centering and any angle in the drill hole will cause an error in the square. That is, I can set the square up to be perfect in one direction (one side), but if I fold the square over and try to use the other side, it will no longer be square.

I'm going to try again, but I don't know if I can drill a hole that accurate with the equipment I have. Otherwise, I'll have to mark the square so that I only use it in one direction.

Mike

Here's my first attempt. Works, but only on one side. I'll try another and see if I can drill the holes more accurately.

387996

[Simon MacGowen]

Please share a photo or two after you make one.

This is another example of a fancy SS -
http://www.bridgecitytools.com/default/ss-4-saddle-square.html

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

but that being said, I am amazed at the geegaws available for purchase that can (and maybe should) be made in the shop.

I agree. My shop is full of shop-made jigs and accessories, some not available in any commercial alternatives. Some folks are willing to fork out $300 for a shooting board that can be easily made with less than $20 of materials or even scrap materials lying around in the shop. Or a $80 (?) handle....for a fret saw! But I will never be one of them.

Simon

[Mike Henderson]

I made another hinged saddle square and this time I worked hard to center the holes on the "hinge". This one is a lot better but it's still just a bit off when you fold it over. I'll mark this one with the outside so that I use it in the orientation where it's accurate.

This one is made from some ebony I had in the shop. Figured it would hold up well in use.
388012

Some years ago, I made a bunch of dovetail saddle markers out of maple. You can see what they look like here. Someone could make a regular saddle square the same way, attaching the two pieces of wood with dovetails.
388020

Mike

[Mark Rainey]

Nice work Mike
I made another hinged saddle square and this time I worked hard to center the holes on the "hinge". This one is a lot better but it's still just a bit off when you fold it over. I'll mark this one with the outside so that I use it in the orientation where it's accurate.

This one is made from some ebony I had in the shop. Figured it would hold up well in use.
388012

Some years ago, I made a bunch of dovetail saddle markers out of maple. You can see what they look like here. Someone could make a regular saddle square the same way, attaching the two pieces of wood with dovetails.
388020

Mike

[Derek Cohen]

I made another hinged saddle square and this time I worked hard to center the holes on the "hinge". This one is a lot better but it's still just a bit off when you fold it over. I'll mark this one with the outside so that I use it in the orientation where it's accurate.

This one is made from some ebony I had in the shop. Figured it would hold up well in use.
388012

Some years ago, I made a bunch of dovetail saddle markers out of maple. You can see what they look like here. Someone could make a regular saddle square the same way, attaching the two pieces of wood with dovetails.
388020

Mike

That looks very nicely done, Mike! :)

Once upon a time I made a dovetailed dovetail (saddle) marker as well ..

https://s19.postimg.cc/4cm8556zn/Bridge_City_Saddle_Square2.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mark Rainey]

Handtools are beautiful!