Risky Cuts

[Burt Waddell]

Someone suggested that we start a thread on the dead wood concept, so here goes.

In the other thread John asked me what I meant by risky cuts. Dangerous would have been a term to use. The specific cut was cutting a rabbit about 2 inches deep in the edge of a 1" x 3" board. Anyway you did it your finger was within 1/2" of the blade - one slip and we all know the rest.

With the Easy smart guide and smart clamps, I could have clamped the boards in and done the cuts with no danger of injury.

The basic idea of the dead wood concept is that you move the tool and the wood stays in place. In other words it is easier and safer to push a circular saw on a guide down the center of a 4 x 8' sheet of plywood than it is to pust the sheet of plywood thru a table saw. I'm sure Dino can add volumes to this.

[Don Baer]

Burt,
Not to start an arguement but I have made similar cuts many times on Tablesaws without my fingurs coming close to the blade. I don't question the fact that many find the guided system more comfortable then the stationary saw method. BUT don't sell short the fact that for many years folks have been cutting wood making cuts the same as you described whithout loss of limbs. It's realy a matter of being confortable with using the tools you have and using them properly. I gueantee that if someone is carless enough to hurt themselves using power tools they will find a way either with the dead wood idea or otherwise..

It realy boils down to the basics of practicing our craft by engaging our brain prior to turning on the power.

[Frank Hagan]

I like the "guided saw" concept, but there is still ample opportunity for injury. For one, the operator has to assemble the system, bring the saw to the guide, etc. Carelessness can still have him binding material, tripping on debris on the floor, plugging in the tool before setting it up and accidentally starting the saw, etc.

I don't think it can be beat for things like cutting sheet goods, though. Unless you have a sliding table on your table saw, which I think is a pretty safe way to do it.

[Mark Singer]

Burt,
That should be done with a tenoning jig....never hold a piece 1x3 vertically by hand on a table saw!

[Burt Waddell]

Mark,

Couldn't agree more. The pieces were about 12" long and the dado ran the length of the board.

I fully realize that no system is perfect, but this time the guide system with a good clamping system would have greatly reduced the chance of injury. There is danger any time we turn a power tool on so we need to minimize that danger.

I operate a full time wood shop and in the past spent a lot of time behind the 3 Unisaws that I owned. I've reduced that to 2 and there is a good possibility that one of them may go. I just find that it takes a lot less work to use the saw guides than it does the table saws. In fact just a few months ago, I sold a Excaliber sliding table. It was a fine tool but I feel a lot better after cross cutting the wood for a kitchen with a guide than I did with the sliding table.

The key word is be safe.

[Dev Emch]

You guys know me..... I am the Yah-But Kid.:D

I have said this before and I will say it again. The most important machine tool in the wood shop today is a good full size shaper with a 1 or 1.25 inch spindle or a 30 mm spindle.

This is esp. true if your running a power feeder. I first began using power feeders to run long moulding like cuts to eliminate the burn marks and slight pertobations that result each time you have to change your hand position and stop the feeding.... if only for a second. I had an old used Delta power feeder and I attached it to the swing away power feeder bracket on my shaper. I have never looked back and the used Delta feeder works great. Its not a Univer but then again, I got it thrown in with a machine deal for free.

The advantage the power feeder has on the shaper is two fold. First, it runs the stock at a rock steady feed rate with a constant pressure to the fence. This improves consistency and quality of cut. Secondly, the "shoe" goes slightly in front of the cutter head. Remember, shapers often have split fences and the infeed fence is often back of the outfeed fence. So your fingers are never never never in the vincinity of those knives.

For rabbit cuts and dado cuts along the edges, the shaper does an excellent job and often I dont have to do multiple passes due to either material removal restrictions (i.e. router bits) or odd dado or rabbit widths (i.e. I can use a stackable groover head).

Shapers can be set up to do most wood working cuts of note. I have even used mine to edge joint 4/4 stock instead of a jointer when my jointer was down.

Equiped with either a groover or a veritcal bit (i.e. router bit in a special spindle), the shaper becomes a dado and rabbit cuttin' monster. With the vertical bit, its easy to do blind dados. If the dados are not blind but through, then just use a standard groover head.

The shaper is often never talked about in the rags because it is seen as 1). Dangerous, 2). Expensive and 3). A machine restricted to pro level shops. And maybe a fourth reason. A shaper can eliminate the need for a whole pile of portable kit such as edge guides, specialized router jigs, mortise and tenon jigs, etc. This defeats the mission of the modern hobbyist woodworking business montra....... SELL MO TOOLING..... SELL MO TOOLING.

So getting back to the orig. example of putting this rabbit onto a 1x3 board 12 inches long. First, I would always try to rabbit first and then trim to 12 inches if the application allows this. But it not, no worries. It would take about 5 to 10 minutes to set up the shaper and then you can crank out a truck bed full of these parts in about 15 minutes or less.:p Did I also mention that shapers are wood pulverizing machines!

And when it comes to cutting the absolute perfect machine cut tennon, nothing beats a shaper with either a cross cut sled or a sliding table and a pair of identical rebate heads and a spacer the width of your tennon. NOTHING... NODA. O.K., there is one machine. A tenoner. But a tenoner is a very specialized wood shaper and I cannot use a tenoner to raise a panel, joint and edge, rabbit a 1x3 board, etc.

I have what I call Dev's Shaping Triangle. All wood shaping occurs on one or more points of a triangle. At the first point, we have the shaper. A shaper can be used to do the work of either remaining two points or unique work that niether of the other two points can do. Hence, its the most important of the three machines types. It can do either moulding cuts or coping cuts. The next or second point is the moulder. It is restricted to doing moulding or with the grain cuts. Often, these have several heads and are specialized machines costing upwards of $100 K new. They are the most expensive and difficult to use and are really only viable in a moulding shop. The last point represents the coping cut. This is the stomping grounds of the tennoner. Some are single end and some are double end. Each end can have as many as five motors/spindles. They excel at cutting tennons of any size and also work wonders in doing the coping relief cuts and tennon length trim cuts. You find these in cabinet and door shops. They are somewhat specialized and unload the generic shaper for other duties.



Just my opinion....

[John Bailey]

Sorry to be so uninformed, but not having a table saw was leaving me in the dark. As I understand then, the "risky cut" business would be a matter of choice by the operator, not an inherent trait of the tablesaw. Apparently there are safe ways of making these cuts. So, that makes the tablesaw no different than the rest of the machines in our shops. We can use them safely, or, we can choose to use them, shall we say, ill-advisedly.

The only bad cut to myself was from a handsaw. It was hanging on the wall, I looked away while I reached for it. My hand knocked it off the wall and as it fell to the teeth ripped a pretty good cut in the side of my hand. I called that saw every name in the book, including stupid, but as everyone knows, the saw was much smarter than I was just then.

John

[Randy Moore]

It doesn't matter how you cut that piece of wood or any piece for that matter.You have to think about what you are doing at all times, the first time you get lax about using the table saw or circular saw you WILL get hurt. You have to think about what you are doing not about the hot date you have next week.

I am in construction work and lots of time I can get lax about what I am doing and I get a serious cut or worse. but when I an operating the machinery I pay attention to what I am doing. I ignore almost everyone until I am done I have told some of the bosses to leave me alone:mad: and I will talk to them when I get done.

No distractions in the shop. You have to think about what you are doing 'cause if you are distracted:eek: you will get hurt darn near every time.

Randy

[Dennis Peacock]

I am in construction work and lots of time I can get lax about what I am doing and I get a serious cut or worse. but when I an operating the machinery I pay attention to what I am doing. I ignore almost everyone until I am done I have told some of the bosses to leave me alone:mad: and I will talk to them when I get done.

No distractions in the shop. You have to think about what you are doing 'cause if you are distracted:eek: you will get hurt darn near every time.
Randy

AMEN!!!!! Preach it..!!!!!! I have taught my wife and kids to NEVER and I mean N E V E R distract me while a machine is running.

To keep on topic though.....I have guiderail setups and like them a lot. They do help to make things safer overall and I applaud every single guiderail manufacturer for making and distributing the items they have designed to help make woodworking safer for the general public.

[Dino Makropoulos]

I like the "guided saw" concept, but there is still ample opportunity for injury. For one, the operator has to assemble the system, bring the saw to the guide, etc. Carelessness can still have him binding material, tripping on debris on the floor, plugging in the tool before setting it up and accidentally starting the saw, etc.

I don't think it can be beat for things like cutting sheet goods, though. Unless you have a sliding table on your table saw, which I think is a pretty safe way to do it.

Frank.
The "guided saw' concept is been around from the day the Skill saw was invented. And I'm sure the "guided router" and the "guided planer" or even the "guided chain saw" one way or another.
On the machine shop we don't see machinists holding the parts on the drill press. The Vise is on every machinist tool. It was the right thing to do and it was easy to figure this out.

With my woodworking back round, one day I asked the owner of the machine shop, who was making some prototypes for me, if I can cut some aluminum on the cut-off saw.
He ask me if I know how to use the tool, and my answer was, What you think I'm stupid? I be cutting wood for over 25 years ..do you see? ...10.
He said. Ok. Let me see your first cut.
I set the aluminum bar on the saw , bring the blade to the mark and .. I start the machine.
-NO-NO-NO. If you cut the parts like that, I can't use them.
You need to use the stop.
- But you have the stop on the cut-off side. We may have binding and I'm not about to visit the local hospital. What do you think now old man?
I told you that I'm a good carpenter and I know how to cut.

Dino,dino,dino. You guys are all the same. A disaster waiting to happen.
You guys do everything wrong and you know everything about machines.
You don't even try to see how the tool works.
Do you see this stop? do you see how THIS stop works?
Let me show you how to use the machine now. I'm not about to have an accident in my machine shop after 50 years.

Frank. THIS stop can be good for woodworking. Why we don't have this old and smart stop on the radial arm saws and miter saws?

Because Dino, When I ask you if you know how to cut, you saw me your fingers. Having 10 fingers isn't what is all about. Keeping them is.
And I know few smarter and better carpenters than
you with less than 10.

I think the same goes here. I thought THE STOP was a problem when a closer look change the way I think about stops now.

Same with Burt. He take a closer look at the Dead Wood Concept and he found more than just a "guided saw"

[Dino Makropoulos]

You guys know me..... I am the Yah-But Kid.:D

Just my opinion....

Dev.
What is the best/right tool for cutting panels?
What is the best/right tool for straight line ripping?
What is the best /right tool for edge jointing a board?
What is the best /right tool for a compound cut. (tapered/bevel)
What is the best /right tool for mortising and tenons?
What is the best /right tool for dadoes?

Please . make this your first one or two lines answer.
You can do it. :cool:

[Kirk (KC) Constable]

....Please . make this your first one or two lines answer.
You can do it. :cool:

I'll go out on a limb here...betcha he cant. Or won't, anyway. :p

[John Bailey]

Dev.
What is the best/right tool for cutting panels?
What is the best/right tool for straight line ripping?
What is the best /right tool for edge jointing a board?
What is the best /right tool for a compound cut. (tapered/bevel)
What is the best /right tool for mortising and tenons?
What is the best /right tool for dadoes?

Please . make this your first one or two lines answer.
You can do it. :cool:

Either way, this is going to be good!!:cool:

[Paul B. Cresti]

Dev.
What is the best/right tool for cutting panels?
What is the best/right tool for straight line ripping?
What is the best /right tool for edge jointing a board?
What is the best /right tool for a compound cut. (tapered/bevel)
What is the best /right tool for mortising and tenons?
What is the best /right tool for dadoes?

Please . make this your first one or two lines answer.
You can do it. :cool:

Dino,
Well I will give you my answers :)

1)EFSTS
2)EFSTS
3)EFSTS
4)EFSTS
5)Horzontal mortiser on my MM J/P & planner for doing the tenon stock
6)My new invention ;) of a router mounted in my EFSTS
This allows me to do any type of rabet or dado in any size piece of solid stock or panel stock and my hands are I am no where near the bit!

[John Bailey]

I don't know Paul? I'm not sure going in the ring before you're "tagged" by your partner is allowed.

John

[Dino Makropoulos]

Sorry to be so uninformed, but not having a table saw was leaving me in the dark. As I understand then, the "risky cut" business would be a matter of choice by the operator, not an inherent trait of the tablesaw. Apparently there are safe ways of making these cuts. So, that makes the tablesaw no different than the rest of the machines in our shops. We can use them safely, or, we can choose to use them, shall we say, ill-advisedly.

John.
I agree with your statement.
The reality is that we all get lured into the spinning blade for an easy fast cut. Knowing that the table saw wasn't designed for this easy fast cut.

In the jobsite is even worse, because you can't have access to all of your "right tools" for the "right cut"

Same goes on the new shops. With limited budget and space we're forced to use the "wrong tool" for the "wrong cut."

And the same goes even when we have it all. In order to get done fast we get lured into the easy cut and we all know the results.

In a perfect woodworking environment, (this is DEV'S world) we need all the right tools,space and knowledge. The right mind set and plenty of time.

We're talking about UTOPIA here.
And the reality is ..5 Billion Dollars a year for hospital bills?
From 1 B Dollars industry?


The only bad cut to myself was from a handsaw. It was hanging on the wall, I looked away while I reached for it. My hand knocked it off the wall and as it fell to the teeth ripped a pretty good cut in the side of my hand. I called that saw every name in the book, including stupid, but as everyone knows, the saw was much smarter than I was just then.

John

... I called that saw every name in the book, including stupid, but as everyone knows, the saw was much smarter than I was just then.

Same here. That Stupid tool. last month I broke the glass on a sliding door trying to cut aluminum without Frank's stop.
Lucky that the piece don't deform my face.:rolleyes:
That Stupid tool.:eek:

[Paul B. Cresti]

I don't know Paul? I'm not sure going in the ring before you're "tagged" by your partner is allowed.

John

OOPS sorry hey Dev tag me quick and I will tag you back!

[Dino Makropoulos]

Dino,
Well I will give you my answers :)

1)EFSTS
2)EFSTS
3)EFSTS
4)EFSTS
5)Horzontal mortiser on my MM J/P & planner for doing the tenon stock
6)My new invention ;) of a router mounted in my EFSTS
This allows me to do any type of rabet or dado in any size piece of solid stock or panel stock and my hands are I am no where near the bit!

Hi Paul.
Versatility and safety is the name of the game here.
And the EFSTS is the most versatile tool by design.
requires some space and knowledge,
but non where near to the space that you need
to do all the above from a single tool.

For high production ,we can only talk about CNC's ,Beam saws and straight line rip saws.
Coming from all faces in construction,woodworking
and hardwood production (dimensional plant)
I can say that the EFSTS is the tool of choice
for a custom-semi production shop. And why not for some home shops.
The depth of cut is a feature that you can't be without.

what I like to see is more "router table inventions"
and Smarter Fence Systems.
This way you can comply 100% with the Dead Wood Concept.
The only problem that I saw on the sliders is when used as a regular table saw for ripping. Come up with something there to solve this problem.
Some times the answer is so simple and easy that we just can't see it.:confused:

Few years ago, I "donate" few simple ideas to a big CO.
It was taken down by the lawyers of this CO.
You see? If we have no accidents...they have no job??

And here we're talking about "woodworking Utopia."
and creating cults about machinery. Oh well:rolleyes:

[Mike Cutler]

Whoa folks, I'm missing something here.
Getting back to the original cut, was it a Rabbett, or a groove/dado?
If I needed to just cut a groove 2" deep in a 12" long, 1"x3", I would have used a tenon jig. If it needed to be a rabbet, I would have used the tenon jig first, and then cut the waste of the rabbet with a ZCI insert, and a sled That covered the material and held it against the fence.

A shaper would have been good also.

Unless I'm missing something, I'm not visualizing how an edge guide sytem, alone, would be used to cut a 2" deep groove in the edge of a board. with repeatability on such a small piece. I'm a little slow sometimes though:rolleyes:

[Paul B. Cresti]

The only problem that I saw on the sliders is when used as a regular table saw for ripping. Come up with something there to solve this problem.
Some times the answer is so simple and easy that we just can't see it.:confused:



Dino,
Check my older posts where I explain, or try to, my use of my ripping jig for my slider. It allows for the "Dead Wood" concept and gives great accurate repeatable results. There also other ways to use the slider for ripping. By the way I agree with your many points :)

[Dino Makropoulos]

Dino,
Check my older posts where I explain, or try to, my use of my ripping jig for my slider. It allows for the "Dead Wood" concept and gives great accurate repeatable results. There also other ways to use the slider for ripping. By the way I agree with your many points :)

Paul.
Give us a link here.
if you solved the problem of ripping on the slider,
talk to the SMCI people and make it available to anyone.
I can put a link to our site to let people know about it.:cool:
Thanks Paul.

[Lee DeRaud]

Oh good grief...

Aside from the entertainment value of a good debate, what's up with this almost religious zeal for "The One True Method For Everything"? This thread started with (no offense meant to Burt) an observation to the effect that, since there exists a truly stupid way to perform a certain operation with Tool A, therefore Tool B must be better in all instances...huh?!? This was followed by a bunch of counter-examples from sundry zealots of other persuasions of why Tool B (or C, D, E,...) is, in fact, The Answer.

As somewhat of an agnostic in this debate, I make the following somewhat naive and simplistic observations:
1. The "dead wood" concept is ultimately limited by the fact that the tool being used must be man-portable.
2. The "dead-tool" concept is ultimately limited by the fact that the piece of wood being used must be man-portable.

And for the life of me, I cannot see why any woodworker would willingly subject himself to either of these limitations to satisfy some sort of pseudo-dogma regarding the Right Way To Cut Wood.

Thus endeth the sermon.

(Please don't get me started on lathes: there's a reason those whackos have their own forum.:D :p :cool: )

[Dennis Peacock]

ewwww-weeeee......I can see that this thread is another "hey mr. moderator, keep an eye on me." :eek: :rolleyes:

[Dino Makropoulos]

Whoa folks, I'm missing something here.


I can come up with few ways to do this with an "edge guide" and repeatable..
But ...This is Burt's thread and I may learn something new from him.

You can have some hints until Burt can give you an answer.
1.Smart Clamping System that can hold 1/32" thin materials vertical.?
2. Router with 9" of traverse movement without moving the guide rail?

The idea is to secured the wood. If you can secured the wood, the rest is easy and safe.

How fast you can do this with an "edge guide"? If you need production, then you can build a special positioning table.

On industrial aplications, they use conveyors. But while the wood is been cut, the wood is under pressure one way or another. This again is the Dead Wood Concept.

One factory that makes the plastic edges for us, used to have 3 drop saws for the cut to size parts. Now, they have a 12'00" positioning table and one edge guide. The insurance premium now is 20% less and the production can be handle by only one guy with little or no experience on power tools.:cool:
Do you think they give us better price now? :mad:

The material support, clamping and feeding system is more important than the cutting tool.
To give you an idea.
The most dangerous tools are the portable table saws.
Not enough material support.

[Burt Waddell]

A shaper is a wonderful tool and I have 6 stock feeders. Problem here being this was on site work and I didn't wish to make a trip back to the shop. Actually, the dado was a mobification of existing door parts so working them as a long piece was not an option.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Yep! Keep your eyes on this one Dennis! :rolleyes: It's back!!!!:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Ian Barley]

I was gonna join in but Lee has bin'n'gone and said everything I was gonna but more elegantly.

[Dev Emch]

Just to win Kirk's bet....

What Paul Cresti just said....

[Burt Waddell]

This thread was started from the perspective of safety. The specific cut was a dado cut in stock approximately 3" wide and 12" long. The dado was something like 2" deep. I was working on a job site so there was no shaper or appropriate jigs available. The ez guide with a smart clamp would have held the stock so the cut could have been made without any danger.

In my opinion, this is a great example of how we can use the inventions of Dino to our advantage. From a pure safety standpoint, we need to look for the best combination of tools. I use the EZ Smart stuff a lot but there is room for all types of equipment. I'm just trying to find the safest, easiest way to do things and that is also where Dino is headed.

[Lee DeRaud]

What is the best/right tool for cutting panels?
What is the best/right tool for straight line ripping?
What is the best /right tool for edge jointing a board?
What is the best /right tool for a compound cut. (tapered/bevel)
What is the best /right tool for mortising and tenons?
What is the best /right tool for dadoes?Helpful hints:
1. If anyone thinks there is only one correct answer to each of those questions, they're wrong.
2. If anyone thinks there is only one correct answer to all of those questions, they're delusional.

[Andy Hoyt]

Hey Lee - Dontcha think that out of respect to the infamous Griz/FWW thread that we should first define, quantify, and qualify the terms "best" and "right"?

[Dev Emch]

Jeeezzz, with all due respect, Dino, your once again pushing your wares with that myopic view point. First of all, I am not selling tools on this forum and I did not stay at a holiday inn last night. I just seek the best solution I can find. Not one relegated to a one sighted view point nor one that I can profit from.

First of all, Lee said quite a bit. Bravo. Let me fill in some examples. When I make a door, I use my Oliver 125-D tenoner to cut huge hunkin tenons on the rails. For cabinet face frames and cabinet doors, I **SOMETIMES* use the Oliver 125 but I also use a sliding table on my Hofmann TFS-1200 shaper. It depends on which side of the bed I got up on and how deep those tenons need to be. A tenon of 2.5 inches or less is easy for a shaper. Go over that and your meat cutters becomes swinging platters and its safer to use the Oliver tenoner. Also less wear on your top mounted quill bearing which is the expensive one.

But what about timber frames? A typical T.F. tenon is not really that big and the oliver tenoner can cut them with ease. Using doubled up tooling, the oliver can cut a tenon up to 8 inches in depth and almost 24 inches in width. But now space becomes an issue. And what if the CG of that beam is far out (i.e. heavy and long). If the beam is not correctly supported on some kind of conveyor system but only relies on the tenoner's own table, the beam will lift the table up into the air and cause all sorts of issues. You gotta have a complex roller table feed system set up to run those hunkin timber frames through the tenoner. Here, its easier to use a hand held tenon cutter comprising of a prazi saw or a dedicated tenon cutter with no fewer than 4 interlocking circular saw blades. Clamp it on, push it through and the tenon is done.

A similar argument holds for timber frame mortises. Its easier to use a clamp on chain mortiser by powermatic, makita or Mafell than to try to man handle a beam weighing upwards of a few hundred pounds into and out of a furniture grade stationary mortiser like a wynig 284. Dont even consider using a bench top mortiser for this problem!

Now another very practical solution here is to use very large RAS saws. Saws such as the DeWalt GE or Northfield X-36 are often used in timber frame shops where the "BEAM TEAM" does intial fabrication work. Here, you find inter-connected conveyors feeding various RAS saws. Some of cut off blades are as large as 36 inches (A GE can swing a 36 inch blade). Some have Dado stacks upwards of four or more inches thick and as much as 18 inches in diameter. Yet others have chain saw mortiser heads. These machines are often controlled by stop blocks on either side of the saw and some of the stop blocks are digital and servo controlled such as those made by Tiger Stop. Many shops also have the portable chain saw mortisers.

In one case I saw, the beam had to have some scroll curves cut into it. This was a 12 in by 18 in beam at least 25 feet long and made of red oak. Dude, your not going to move this hunk-o-wood through your little dewalt scroll saw! What did the timber framer do? He used a couple of air bags used to move heavy machines coupled to an onboard compressor. He bolted this kit under an 18 inch Laguana bandsaw! Once running, you take your finger and shove this saw across the shop. So all he had to do was lightly guide this bandsaw floating on a cushion of air through its cut. Two hours of cutting and he was done!

The main point is this. Sometimes its easier to take the work to the machine tool and sometimes its easier to take the machine tool to the work. Dont limit yourself by only one option. The successfull woodworker or cabinet maker will know which option is best and why.

Now onto guide rails. Guide rails have around since the dawn of woodworking. They are a handy tool but I have a couple of problems with them and this includes some of the festool items as well as those sold by Dino.

Lets say I need to cut dados. Lots of dados. For example, the dados in the sides of cabinets for a full kitchen. We fill focus on the dados I cut. The side of the cabinet is made from 3/4 in baltic birch and for extra stiffness and load bearing, I use a 4 3/4 inch tall, 1/2 inch thick baltic birch doubler under the main cabinet bottom. The dado is cut right through this doubler so one side of the dado is deeper than the other side. This makes the use of the Festool guide a bit problematic. I have talked to Festool about this and their response was sure, we can do this but you have to modify this part a little and add something here, etc. Wow! I am not paying money for a tool that I have to first modify just to use it. And how do I maintain accuracy and repeatability to about + 10 thou accuracy? If the sides are off from the back, the items dont fit well. And I have to crank this stuff out like its going out of style.

So far, the best solution I have found for the sides is my RAS and I still have to tweak it each time I set it up. But it cannot dado the long backs so now I am puting dado blades onto the old martin because the new martin does not use dado stacks. I still have micro adjust issues to contend with. So far, I can do this but I cannot allow a high school intern loose on his own. I would like to give one high school kid a chance but right now, this is not possible. I need a more brain dead solution or a BDS.

One way I have found to do some of the dados with ease and micro adjust is to use a hand held router equiped with a Micro Fence edge guide. This seams to work pretty good and as long as the top and bottom edges are dead nuts on and square, it works great. The micrometer adjust on this rig is killer! This is the oldest solution I have and the one I started with. But you still need multiple passes because your dado width is never exact to the thickness of your custom veneered baltic birch stock. But once set, you use the lock collars to set you lower and upper detents and then do every cabinet side in one sitting. When done, your ears are ringing and your wrists feel like you have driven a harley from LA to NYC non stop. And God help you if you have sides that are 1/2 degree out of square!

The edge guide is great if you have to cut a dado in the middle of Kansas. There is no real good way of cutting a dado down the center of a huge sheet of ply or cutting dados into the field sections of hard wood flooring. For a single cut, no problem. You will have to tram each cut and each cut is unique so how do does one know if the cut is on or off? Its when two cuts have to jive dead on that you find out. And herein lies the problem with edge guides.

If I used an edge guide for making the dados talked about earlier, I would need to tram in the guide on each and every dado I make. As careful as I am, the dados would most likely not match up and I will resort to clamps and hammers to get everything contorted into shape and final fit.

Now, there is a way to solve this. In the Festool lineup, we have the two versions of the MFT table. Here, I can, in theory, set up the table along with some stops to make sure that each and every work item is correctly registered prior to the cutting process. But now, I need to buy the router, the router adapter kit, the MFT table and any other misc. kit. By the time I am done, I have lots of bits and bobs, systainers, new tools, and this new workbench. These are great tools and they are even better on site but do they represent the ultimate work solution? No, as there are 9 ways to skin the kitty.

And lastly, here my full solutions to the questions asked:

1). The absolute best panel cutter out there has to be the Martin T-73. After all, it was designed from the ground up as a panel cutter.

2). For straight line ripping, we all live with a compromise. Its called our table saw beit it a unisaw, general or even a martin. The best straight line ripping saw is a Diehl or Matthison Straight Line rip saw with chain feed.

3). The best means of jointing and edge and for doing face jointing is done on a machine for that purpose. Here I would submit my Porter 300 jointer as the best means. But you can substitute your Delta, Martin or even Grizzly jointer here.

4). The miester of the compound cut goes to either the Irrvington chop saw or the northfield X-36 unipoint. Either one is an engineering master.

5-a). The best method of cutting a mortise has to go to either the Wynig 284 chisel mortiser or the Maka STV-161 osscilating chisel mortiser. In general, the maka wins out as it cuts a dead nuts perfect RECTANGULAR hole with a nicer surface finish than the hollow chisel. This is why Stickley Furniture uses this combination of machines for all its mortise cutting.

5-b). The best tenon cutting machine is either the shaper or the tenoner. It depends on how deep you have to go on the tenon. It helps if your using a sliding table on the shaper. There were many good single end tenoners made including yates, oliver and greenlee so I cannot say which one is better. They were all good.

6). I am still seeking the holly grail on dado cutting methods. I have some ideas but I need to work on these for now. Paul, stay tuned, some of your complaints about your system may be answered shortly.

[Lee DeRaud]

Hey Lee - Dontcha think that out of respect to the infamous Griz/FWW thread that we should first define, quantify, and qualify the terms "best" and "right"?Oh, right, like this thread isn't controversial enough already.:p

[Dino Makropoulos]

Jeeezzz,And lastly, here my full solutions to the questions asked:

1). The absolute best panel cutter out there has to be the Martin T-73. After all, it was designed from the ground up as a panel cutter.

Dev. I have no idea about Martin T-73. Can that be a Beam saw?
Some people call it horizontial panel saw? or even computerized panel saw?


2). edit here. I removed the tablesaws.
The best straight line ripping saw is a Diehl or Matthison Straight Line rip saw with chain feed.

With a lasser light they can be. I own both before and happy with both.



3). The best means of jointing and edge and for doing face jointing is done on a machine for that purpose. Here I would submit my Porter 300 jointer as the best means. But you can substitute your Delta, Martin or even Grizzly jointer here.

A glue joint SLR? straight line rip saw?

4). The miester of the compound cut goes to either the Irrvington chop saw or the northfield X-36 unipoint. Either one is an engineering master.

The EFSTS?

5-a). The best method of cutting a mortise has to go to either the Wynig 284 chisel mortiser or the Maka STV-161 osscilating chisel mortiser. In general, the maka wins out as it cuts a dead nuts perfect RECTANGULAR hole with a nicer surface finish than the hollow chisel. This is why Stickley Furniture uses this combination of machines for all its mortise cutting.
ok

5-b). The best tenon cutting machine is either the shaper or the tenoner. It depends on how deep you have to go on the tenon. It helps if your using a sliding table on the shaper. There were many good single end tenoners made including yates, oliver and greenlee so I cannot say which one is better. They were all good.
ok


6). I am still seeking the holly grail on dado cutting methods.

Why not a CNC router?

I have some ideas but I need to work on these for now. Paul, stay tuned, some of your complaints about your system may be answered shortly.

Now. go back and see how this machines work. The engineering and cost isn't the motors. The cost is on the tables and feeding mechanism.
And if you look closer you can see the DWC.:confused:
Do we need more to understand the idea that was around
for more than all of us here?:confused:

[Les Spencer]

Back to the original post:

In the other thread John asked me what I meant by risky cuts. Dangerous would have been a term to use. The specific cut was cutting a rabbit about 2 inches deep in the edge of a 1" x 3" board. Anyway you did it your finger was within 1/2" of the blade - one slip and we all know the rest.

There have been many suggestions on safe ways to make this cut. No one mentioned the basics way to make the cut safely, a simple push stick. Seems pretty obvious to me. I personally use the Gripper from Micro Jig when I need a push stick. IMO its the safest way to make many cuts.

Are we looking for an answer for making a rabbet or looking to start another argument? As has been said many times, to each his own after they have the knowledge of different ways to skin the cat. We now have the knowledge of the dead wood concept. Enough is enough.

[Mike Cutler]

This thread was started from the perspective of safety. The specific cut was a dado cut in stock approximately 3" wide and 12" long. The dado was something like 2" deep. I was working on a job site so there was no shaper or appropriate jigs available. The ez guide with a smart clamp would have held the stock so the cut could have been made without any danger.

In my opinion, this is a great example of how we can use the inventions of Dino to our advantage. From a pure safety standpoint, we need to look for the best combination of tools. I use the EZ Smart stuff a lot but there is room for all types of equipment. I'm just trying to find the safest, easiest way to do things and that is also where Dino is headed.

Sorry Burt, for some reason I thought that this was being performed in a fully equipped shop. I told ya'll I was a little slow sometimes.

I stand by a post I made to another thread.
The safest, and best way to make this cut, is the method that the individual is comfortable and confident in,and has respect for the tools/machine used in the process.
There are far too many ways to skin this cat.

[Burt Waddell]

Mike,

Thanks for the comment. I'm with you about being able to think of a thousand ways to do this in the shop. In the field makes it a totally different story. One nice thing about the easy smart, it could have worked on either place. I think that I am going to have to come up with a ez smart as a permanent resident for my truck.

Burt

[Burt Waddell]

Dev,

With all due respect the term "myopic" makes me think of you, not Dino. Dino is trying to bring about change and you are sticking with the traditional tried and true methods.

Burt

[Scott Parks]

I was amazed at what I found today... To summarize, I was moving some lumber out of the way to hang a small rack of F-clamps on the wall. That is when I found this! It is a stick about 3/8" square. It is penetrated all the way through the drywall (6"), only the exterior sheathing is stopping it!

How did this happen???:confused: As I recall.... Last week, I was making some raised panels with a cove cutter on the tablesaw. I made a 'cheek' type cut first, with the panel vertical. Then I swapped in the molding head to cut the profile and remove the waste. When I got to the end of the cut, the waste shot back. First of all, I NEVER STAND IN THE LINE OF FIRE, and I always make sure the saw is pointing to the wall to block a kickback. (you know, just in case). So anyway, I decided that a safer option would be to remove the waste first with the Festool saw and guide rail. I quickly cut out the waste on all the panels, and then went back to the TS to cut the profile. I forgot about the kickback until I found this today!

This totally fits the "risky cut" and how I used the 'dead wood' concept to make a cut safer!

[Dino Makropoulos]

Jeeezzz, with all due respect, Dino, your once again pushing your wares with that myopic view point. .

Dev.

Let's start with my myopia.:confused:

http://eurekazone.com/gallery/albums.php
klick on the picture with the guided jointer
to go for a myopic view of my myopia.:eek:
Then we can talk about our myopias?:rolleyes:

what comes next is funny.

[Dino Makropoulos]

I So anyway, I decided that a safer option would be to remove the waste first with the Festool saw and guide rail. I quickly cut out the waste on all the panels, and then went back to the TS to cut the profile. I forgot about the kickback until I found this today!

This totally fits the "risky cut" and how I used the 'dead wood' concept to make a cut safer!

Scott.
Very soon (2-3 weeks) you can bring your Festool system to comply 100% with the DWC. clamping capacity to 1/16" narrow pieces and repeatability on both sides of the blade. You can use your tablesaw for what was designed to cut and not for all the dangerous, risky,tapered, compound and high presicion cuts.
The DWC is the easy and safe way for all this cuts.

[Burt Waddell]

Scott,

That can wake you up.

About 6 months ago, I was ripping a small piece about 1 1/4" square and 6 feet long. Fortunately like you, I stand to the side also. Some way I lost control of the piece and the table saw threw it 12 feet - thru a piece of 1/4" masonite, thru 2 layers of 1/4" plywood and it was finally stopped by a sheet of 1/2" plywood. That sure got my attention!!

[Dev Emch]

Dino...

When it comes to DWC, what in heck are you talking about????????

To me, the only thing dead about my wood is the fact the the tree was most likely killed by an ailment called Stihl-itis. Its a ailment caused by a noisy white and orange microbe imported from germany that loves to convert 50:1 fuel into smog.

Your reading something into the current state of the art that really isnt there. Here, the term "state of the art" is as used by patent lawyers.

I have given credit to festool and others for what they have come up with. Its a repackaging of existant ideas into a single solution that really helps folks who have to work on site as well as those who have to work in small rooms. I call this bed room wood working. These tools, including the ones your push so hard here, do have their place.

But in conclusion, if the Dead Wood Concept were an actual term with an actual definition, dont you think I of all folks would have heard about it by now. This whole DWC is a totaly new term to me and I am rather well read in terms of whats out there past and present. I have gone to many shows over many years and I have yet to hear this term used. And I will admit that right now, I couldn't use that term in context if my life depended on it. The ideas that it tries to embody are both practical and eons old. So what is the new deal about dead wood? Are we trying to put a label on mere common sense here? Come on guys, help *ME*, the keeper of the Oliver Arch, to understand this new concept.

[Mike Cutler]

Dead wood concept.

If we accept that there is one dynamic, and one static component in the "processing" of material, and one independent variable, the human.
The machine in the classic method is the dead component. It doesn't move. The wood component is the dynamic
In the DWC method, it is the wood that doesn't move, or dead, and the machine that is dynamic. The independent variable is the same.

I've not seen Dino's products yet, although he has sent me alot of info about them. I can see the value of them, but as of yet, I haven't done a project that they would have helped me on. With some house "remuddling" on the horizon, that may change.

In the above definition. What happens if we remove the Independent Variable".:eek:,;)

[Ian Barley]

..........But in conclusion, if the Dead Wood Concept were an actual term with an actual definition, dont you think I of all folks would have heard about it by now.....
Just to clarify Dev - does that mean that nothing can really exist until you have heard of it?

[John Hart]

....(Please don't get me started on lathes: there's a reason those whackos have their own forum.:D :p :cool: )

I wonder if there's a way to make a lathe spin around a piece of wood?...Hmmm:rolleyes: :D

[Mike Cutler]

I wonder if there's a way to make a lathe spin around a piece of wood?...Hmmm:rolleyes: :D


I think I'll pass on that exhibition. Talk about a new definition of scary.:eek:

[Lee DeRaud]

I wonder if there's a way to make a lathe spin around a piece of wood?...Hmmm:rolleyes: :DI don't have a lathe yet, but I suspect that at some point after acquiring one, I'll manage to make that happen.:eek:

Not deliberately, mind you...:p

[Lee DeRaud]

Just to clarify Dev - does that mean that nothing can really exist until you have heard of it?Not to put words in Dev's mouth, but I took that whole thing to mean that, just because somebody comes up with a catchy name for something doesn't mean it's actually "new".

[Dennis McDonaugh]

I was amazed at what I found today... To summarize, I was moving some lumber out of the way to hang a small rack of F-clamps on the wall. That is when I found this! It is a stick about 3/8" square. It is penetrated all the way through the drywall (6"), only the exterior sheathing is stopping it!

How did this happen???:confused: As I recall.... Last week, I was making some raised panels with a cove cutter on the tablesaw. I made a 'cheek' type cut first, with the panel vertical. Then I swapped in the molding head to cut the profile and remove the waste. When I got to the end of the cut, the waste shot back. First of all, I NEVER STAND IN THE LINE OF FIRE, and I always make sure the saw is pointing to the wall to block a kickback. (you know, just in case). So anyway, I decided that a safer option would be to remove the waste first with the Festool saw and guide rail. I quickly cut out the waste on all the panels, and then went back to the TS to cut the profile. I forgot about the kickback until I found this today!

This totally fits the "risky cut" and how I used the 'dead wood' concept to make a cut safer!

Scott, I don't think I'd forget that for awhile!

[Dev Emch]

O.K.

Thanks Mike Cutler for that intial definition. So if we take a unisaw, then its the wood that rides over the unisaw and the unisaw that stays fixed. Using Dinos, stuff, its the saw that rides over the wood and its the wood that stays fixed. Extending this to a jointer would make sense as well. Same applies to a run of the mill shaper.

These are all super basic definitions and examples. And the gist is that the ummm, lets use this term for the first time, DWC will make things safer for us. Based on the unisaw example, I can go along with that.

But lets extend this logic to raising panels. In the DWC version of this, I would apply one of Dino's guides with my router of choice to the panel. Now, I am going to install a 3 inch hunkin Frued panel raiser bit and kick the speed of my PC 7518 down to 10,000 RPM. After all, I am working safe here. And now I am using a full bore panel raiser outside of its fixed table domain in the shadow of working safe because I want to use the DWC concept.

ARE YOU GUYS OUT OF YOUR MINDS! This isn't safe, this is suicide! DWC or not.

And then we get over to the sliding table table saw. Be it my martin or my oliver or a general or a grizzly with a laguna retrofit. What happens to the DWC concept here? Yes, the wood is moving as in the orig. unisaw example. But its clamped down to the sliding table with a hunkin eccentric clamp! ITs not going anywhere. I have found that, if possible, the best way for me to trim down doors is to throw the whole door up onto my martin sliding table, take a couple of measurements and then clamp it down and run it through. The cut is a perfect square cut as evidenced by my starret engineer/machinist squares. SHould I do this on site, then I have to set up a guide rail to make this cut. This is the only true valid use for these guided tools be they festool or those from dino incorporated.

My current kitchen project is 168 miles from my shop. So I will do as much as I can but I am also reasonable. This is why I have been researching the Festool lineup and why I will wind up buying a bunch of it. I cannot go back and forth to my shop and the site with a round trip of 336 miles. Something has to give! And in this context, these tools are great. But are they comparable to the heavy iron counterparts? NO WAY!

[Steve Clardy]

But lets extend this logic to raising panels. In the DWC version of this, I would apply one of Dino's guides with my router of choice to the panel. Now, I am going to install a 3 inch hunkin Frued panel raiser bit and kick the speed of my PC 7518 down to 10,000 RPM. After all, I am working safe here. And now I am using a full bore panel raiser outside of its fixed table domain in the shadow of working safe because I want to use the DWC concept.

ARE YOU GUYS OUT OF YOUR MINDS! This isn't safe, this is suicide! DWC or not.




How can we be outa our minds when you brought this one up Dev?
Confused.

[Frank Pellow]

I was amazed at what I found today... To summarize, I was moving some lumber out of the way to hang a small rack of F-clamps on the wall. That is when I found this! It is a stick about 3/8" square. It is penetrated all the way through the drywall (6"), only the exterior sheathing is stopping it!
...
This totally fits the "risky cut" and how I used the 'dead wood' concept to make a cut safer!
WOW, that is quite a wake up call to work more safely! And, I am a great believer in bringing the tool to the wood whenever possible.

[Scott Parks]

I have found that, if possible, the best way for me to trim down doors is to throw the whole door up onto my martin sliding table, take a couple of measurements and then clamp it down and run it through. The cut is a perfect square cut as evidenced by my starret engineer/machinist squares. SHould I do this on site, then I have to set up a guide rail to make this cut. This is the only true valid use for these guided tools be they festool or those from dino incorporated.

My current kitchen project is 168 miles from my shop. So I will do as much as I can but I am also reasonable. This is why I have been researching the Festool lineup and why I will wind up buying a bunch of it. I cannot go back and forth to my shop and the site with a round trip of 336 miles. Something has to give! And in this context, these tools are great. But are they comparable to the heavy iron counterparts? NO WAY!

This is exactly where the Festool shines... It has it's place, but there is no way I'm giving up my tablesaw!

[Jim Bell]

I"m trying to keep up here. Mabe I/m doing it wrong all these years. I push a 4'x8' sheet of plywood through my table saw and it's risky? I must have missed something.Is there a safe way? Am I the Evil Knievel of table saws? Now ya got me thinking. A catchers mask and chest pretection or mebe even a bullet proof vest.... tempered glass goggles,,,a helmet with a lightening rod attatched to the top and appropiately grounded. Wait a minute! The owners manual,,,, mebe even a book that explains safety and power tools! Now it's comming to me Read the friggin directions!!!! Phew Im glad that's over. I gotta go drink some beer now. As far as dead wood, I don't even wanna think about it.
Jim:)

[Dino Makropoulos]

O.K.
...Using Dinos, stuff,
...one of Dino's guides
....Be it my martin or my oliver
...onto my martin sliding
...or those from dino incorporated.
NO WAY!

Dev. ...
I clean your post to get to the bottom of it.:rolleyes:
The DWC exists. You even talk about it today.:D
But not the way "your way" in order to bring
your Martin and your Oliver into this.:rolleyes:
The wood can move too. But only after is secured, under pressure (dead)
The EFSTS comply's with the DWC as long as you're using the sliding table.
The shaper with a sliding table or a feeder comply's with the DWC.
The Tablesaw with either a sliding table or a feeder comply's with the DWC.

The guy holding and pushing the wood into a spinning blade or rotating knifes without any fixturing-clamping or sliders or whatever, comply's with the Dead Man concept. :rolleyes: :mad:

The , Dino's stuff, was designed from the get go to comply with the DWC 100%. Other tools can do the same.

Now. You can go back to your Hoffman and Martin.:)

[Frank Pellow]

I"m trying to keep up here. Mabe I/m doing it wrong all these years. I push a 4'x8' sheet of plywood through my table saw and it's risky?
...
Jim:)
Jim, it's VERY risky and I am surprsed that anyone would think otherwise. :confused: Even in the bad old days :( when I used to push a 4'x8' sheet of plywood through my table saw I knew that it was risky.

[Dino Makropoulos]

I"m trying to keep up here. Mabe I/m doing it wrong all these years. I push a 4'x8' sheet of plywood through my table saw and it's risky? I must have missed something.Is there a safe way? Am I the Evil Knievel of table saws? Now ya got me thinking. A catchers mask and chest pretection or mebe even a bullet proof vest.... tempered glass goggles,,,a helmet with a lightening rod attatched to the top and appropiately grounded. Wait a minute! The owners manual,,,, mebe even a book that explains safety and power tools! Now it's comming to me Read the friggin directions!!!! Phew Im glad that's over. I gotta go drink some beer now. As far as dead wood, I don't even wanna think about it.
Jim:)
No Jim.
All this years you doing it right. If you have made one mistake, you're the first one to know. And some times the only one to know.:)
You have master the art of pushing the 4x8 into the tablesaw.
But not all of us can do it as good as you do.:(
The question here is: Are you sure that you can be doing the same cut over and over with the same level of perfection?

I think I'm one of the lucky ones too. :rolleyes:

[Dev Emch]

Dino... Please forgive us Martin and Hofmann types. We be so stupid...

All this intelectual stuff has made my head hurt. I am going to crawl back into my cave and play with my martins and my hofmann and my olivers and my maka. These primitive machines may not embody the DWC but they sure bring in the cash when they are running. And when I am posting to SMC, they are not running.

[Steveo O'Banion]

It realy boils down to the basics of practicing our craft by engaging our brain prior to turning on the power.

Always trust ignorance to defeat the best systems we can device.

With a piece like that, I can simply make my cuts on a larger piece and then cut it down, or use a sled on the saw, or a miter gauge with an extension fence, or a router table, well, you get the idea.