Felder FD-250 - Building a fence - thoughts

[Brian Holcombe]

Looking to group source some thoughts on this so that I can form a consensus on how to approach this issue.

I have a Felder FD-250 slot mortiser, I'm making the conversion on it to a square chisel, which requires the square chisel holder that bolts to the motor. It also includes another handle for the machine with pinions and racks for driving the chisel forward.

My debate is in regard to the fence, there is not much of a factory solution available and so I'm considering sourcing cast iron, aluminum or extruded aluminum to build a sturdy fence which will back the part being mortised (along with a sacrificial bit of wood).

In the experience of the crowd, which of the below solutions would be best; all of them are comparably priced.

- cast iron I can source 1" x 4" thick material by 24" long. I have the capability of machining from rough stock to form square sides. I'll then build some arrangement for easy bracketing to the machine. The machine does make this easy by having a ledge and groove around the entire table. This is 24lbs.

- aluminum I can source 1.5" x 4" by 24. It's 15lbs Same deal as above.

- Finally VSCT offers a machined extrusion that looks pretty heavy, only specs I see on it are that it is 48" long. I'm curious if this is a reasonable approach as I can more easily create stops with this but I'm very curious to know if it would actually survive use as a backup for mortising or if it will deflect.

Any of the above will be easy to use, as the guide I create will have a permanently oiled bronze strip embedded and handles to make it easy to move even a fairly heavy bit of cast iron.

Appreciate your thoughts on best approach.

[Rod Sheridan]

I would use aluminum rectangular tubing.....Regards, Rod.

[Patrick Walsh]

Cast iron,

Some kind of machined up brackets with kipp levers to attach the fence to the left and right channels in the machines tables, also the back channel.

So like four attachment points total with kipp levers. The ones off the back of the fence should travel in a slot so the fence can move forward and back as to adjust for table or mortise depth. You could do the same with just a mount on the left and right sides mounted to the left and right side channels in the tables but imop the additional mounts off the back of the fence will add more security so things don’t move around.

Even with air clamps my biggest gripe with that machine is my workpiece moving around or the machine vibrating on the floor aiding in a crappy cut. Or bit whip...

[Brian Holcombe]

I haven't considered aluminum tubing because I plan to cut t-slot grooves into whatever material I end up using.

Patrick,

That sounds like exactly what I have in mind, especially about the Kipp levers. I plan to make it so that the sides grip very strongly, so as to avoid using the back at all. I'm concerned that using the back will create a possible structural issue in the table, like tearing the back ledge off in an extreme case, or cracking it under hard use.

Vibrating on the floor drives me nuts, I've been considering filling the base with some type of ballast, the machine is under weight in my opinion. The heavier German machines tend to be about 650-770lbs, where this one weighs in at 480lbs. So ballast and a heavy fence will put it closer to the typical range and cut down on the some of the skipping around on the floor.

[Patrick Walsh]

There was and still may be a Kolle for sale on woodweb.

If I hadn't been going so nuts spending on machines and tools as of late I’d buy it. I gotta stop now till I pay off the jointer.

The Felder machines are nice enough but they really do need to be heavier. Even if just some random added weight on their part.

One of our old SCMI shapers at work has a concrete weight bolted into one corner. I assume it’s from the factory like this as it does not look jury rigged. I know Martin machines are filled with some proprietary cement.

Do t know why I never thought to add weight to the machine?

How much is the square chisel stuff costing from Felder. I don’t mind cleaning my corners but the bit whip drives me nuts. I find myself making very long mortise fairly regularly for like a breadboard end type application and over say 1-4 ft the mortise really gets quite sloppy.

Eager to see what you come up with..

[Brian Holcombe]

It was $940 for the square chisel kit parts and I haven't bought chisels yet, which will be about $250. I plan to buy Fisch imperial sized bits so that I can tool slave. Hopefully they work in the bit holder, I don't know if they will.

I eliminated the majority of bit whip (when using the bird's mouth bit) by changing the cutting direction to 'left' turning, the whip is considerably reduced.

A concrete weight is a good idea, I thought off simply pouring concrete but I'm not really sure how that would go. :D

[Patrick Walsh]

Yikes.

Another $940!

Think I’ll just have a Wadkin or Robinson shipped over from the UK.

I’ll try reversing my spindle. I’m running a vfd and am no longer connected to the power on off or spindle direction knob. Tbh I never even looked to see if the machine had one. I know my Felder shaper does.

Hmmm..

How is the combo machine. I have a friend considering one and going back and forth between that and a Felder. I keep telling him go Scmi.

Also have year head boo from So in say the last six months?

[Brian Holcombe]

Indeed, I have not been thrilled by the expense of this add-on. However, given the options available it seemed worthwhile to take my chances on this machine rather than to bring in another machine which will of course have it's own set of issues. Some of those older English machines are really wonderful looking, but anytime I buy something used and older than 20yrs or so, I proceed with the expectation that it's going to be an in-depth restoration. The minimax lathe, for example.

The combo machine is good, I prepped 200bf of Ash with it last week, working beautifully. I added Aigner tables to not long ago and it's nice to have the extra table length.

We were emailing back and forth for a bit a few weeks back.

[Van Huskey]

It was $940 for the square chisel kit parts and I haven't bought chisels yet,

I actually came back to this thread to ask what the cost was, my gears had been turning since I read the OP last night when I read this let's just say a monkey wrench got dropped into the gears...

[Van Huskey]

The Felder machines are nice enough but they really do need to be heavier. Even if just some random added weight on their part.

One of our old SCMI shapers at work has a concrete weight bolted into one corner. I assume it’s from the factory like this as it does not look jury rigged. I know Martin machines are filled with some proprietary cement.



When I read the first line I immediately thought that maybe Felder should cross the border and buy some of that special German concrete, then you beat me to it.

[David Kumm]

I understand the reason for not adding machines but my FD 250 sits most of the time. Bacci for slot mortises and Maka for square edged ones. Neither cost as much as the FD. Dave

[Brian Holcombe]

Van,

I was looking at it closely yesterday, I am wondering the best way to add ballast.


I understand the reason for not adding machines but my FD 250 sits most of the time. Bacci for slot mortises and Maka for square edged ones. Neither cost as much as the FD. Dave

It does not end up being redundant for me as a Maka will not cut a square hole, only rectangles and does require setup beyond that of the hollow chisel. So, even if this ends up in limited use in the future, it will still be quite useful. I do have designs on a Maka, but I have a few other things that I want first.

[David Kumm]

Brian, I hear you. I have a Fay and Egan for square holes. Iron disease. Dave387529387530

[Mike Heidrick]

All square chisel setups ive used have the chisel and auger as a set. Not the case here?

For a $940 add on i would have a second machine for sure and an upright one.

I did dig out my Laguna slot mortiser today. It awaits cleanup and a ride to the new shed.

[Patrick Walsh]

I agree,

I know we have been through this before Brian and I understand your reasons for your decision.

I can’t help but still feel your solution is in the link below. Do it once, do it right and get it over with. ‘

Machine in link will require jumping through hoops with regard to electricity with your residential single phase but it will not require and mucking with as many machines it’s age would.

https://www.scosarg.com/used-wadkin-dm-v-mortiser-rebuilt


All square chisel setups ive used have the chisel and auger as a set. Not the case here?

For a $940 add on i would have a second machine for sure and an upright one.

I did dig out my Laguna slot mortiser today. It awaits cleanup and a ride to the new shed.

[Brian Holcombe]

I appreciate the inputs on my decision, however I decided to go this route because I came across this video by Vincent Rolfe on youtube. He builds some pretty nice things and is using this setup. He clamps a backup bar, where I want to build a heavy fence, but in any case he makes it look quite doable. Given the consideration in the rest of his work, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that he's likely got this machine setup well for this.

Mike, I've looked into old iron and I've yet to see anything coming up for less than $2500 that looks like something I'd like to actually invest in before restoration. Add to that I have a scarcity in the way of floor space, which I'm prioritizing to a spindle molder and a Maka eventually. This setup does use chisel and auger.

David, that machine is pretty badass.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdMAgjVU9CI

Patrick, I'd like to add another machine but not something I can really consider in my current space. Appreciate the suggestion, and a nice one at that but that will have to wait for a day when I have larger square footage.

[Joe Calhoon]

I have seen a few DMs pop up used lately. The DMV is very rare here. They are a good solution for the HC.

Mortisers in general are not the easiest machine to design fences for. Mortises vary in length and that throws a kink to it.
the Maka has a heavy flip up fence for in close work that reads to a scale in the table. It shares the Glide stop fence of the radial arm. The scale is set to center of cut but since mortise length can vary we usually just eyeball it in then adjust. Some shops have put Tiger Stop type systems on Maka’s.
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My DM has no fence or stops but plan to make one or if lucky find one that was made for these machines. For one offs not hard to just mark the cuts but that is not ideal for batch work. The machine has a nice stop adjustment for length of mortise.
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My Hoffmann (now Götzinger) has one of the best manual fence systems for a mortiser -drill. It has left and right fixed stops that swing out of the way when not used. Two adjustable in close stops that accurately read off a scale and a long fence that plugs into each side for long work with mid mortises or dowels. This machine can do slot mortises but we use it mostly for dowel drilling.
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We we used to have a Kolle slot mortiser. It had a 3 position center fence that plugged into the table and a simple double rod fence for longer work. It was simple but not bad to set. The machine was similar to Hofmann’s and Panhans mortiser.

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[Warren Lake]

heres some italian concrete and how they do it on a T130 metal box concrete inside.

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This is looking up into the box, Jimmy Hoffa isnt in there.

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Thats the first horizontal Chisel ive seen before, pretty cool, either its not adjusted well or gravity works against it as his auger is rubbing too much.

Ive been happy with this machine, build quality is excellent. The clamping system could have been better as solid as they made it the clamping system would have been better off the back fence, pushing on it as it does it can deflect. Or if made so it torques out with the same pressure each time you clamp it. I forget what I measured think deflection can be .003.

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[Mike Heidrick]

Seems like you could just use a round birds mouth bit on a slot mortiser and then just mount a chisel and square the ends. Hmm, Ill try it on mine. I think i still have some hollow chisels left.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks for the input fellas, much appreciated.

Joe, I’ve been thinking a lot about flip down stops. My thought now is if a cast iron fence with an extruded aluminum face, in thinner but sturdy weight that can easily accommodate stops. Thanks for providing those examples, greatly appreciated.

Warren, thanks for the photos. That’s a smart way to do it, just baffling away from the wiring and pulleys. Given how difficult it will be to weld in a baffle I’m thinking of just placing lead blocks in the base, or heavy duty sealed sand bags

There is a chance that the iron hub that holds the chisel was not checked for centering against the chuck. I plan to do this but there may also be little room for adjustment. Also it is possible that the auger is not perfectly true or other situations exist that I’m not considering.

Its also possible that the cell phone just picks up on that frequency.

[Warren Lake]

Brian

I think that metal box is just fastened in with allen screws so you could make it or have one made then fasten it then remove it and fill it then instal

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks Warren!

[Mike Heidrick]

Here is my mortiser with a set of bimba clamps from jds. Just thrying to give you ideas. My sub table is held on to the CI table with 6 rare earth magnets.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/BloomingtonMike/mortisertable1.jpg

[Warren Lake]

I like it. Years ago I did set up with an air foot pedal and took the clamps off the Blum Hinge machine. What turns your clamps on and off? I went from mickey mouse toggles to fast and easy. I like the blums as they are small and have good strength. LIke to do some set up on my mortiser and have it run off the back fence. If you have seen Jacks stuff run he gets his cutters really sharp they go in and out really well. thats part of it. I have sandpaper on my clamping block and I also have the pressure piece cut away so there is never pressure directly over the the bit itself. Ive always meant to post and ask what Joe and others thing of that. IM not sure it transmits directly but I kind of felt it does so have it so the pressure is a bit away from the bit on either side of it.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks Mike, that is a cool idea. I have been thinking of air clamps for this as well.

[Mike Heidrick]

Just a Bimba Toggle. I did not want a pedal as I want it to stay sustained.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/BloomingtonMike/mort3.jpg

[Warren Lake]

If sustained means to stay clamped then you buy that type of pedal. Might even be one pedal and you hook it up two ways cant remember, I had two first one crapped out after a number of years.

[Brian Holcombe]

An update on this. Felder updated me, they had the remainder of the kit parts local, so they're shipping them to me pronto. The kit is not $940, it's $650~, we had one part redundant.

I ordered cast iron slabs for the fence and fence parts, once I mill that up I will add the other parts needed to make the fence more useful, planned so far is a length of aluminum extrusion (48") that can be used for setting stops.

[Brian Holcombe]

Ok, received the parts and installed. I found the install to be very straightforward but no documentation was available I'm simply working off of applied experience with gears and so forth.

I plan to detail this in a blog post, so I'm not going to write up a ton here, just wanted to show the add-on parts.

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/img_0822.jpg

Here is a photo of the racks and pinions, please mind you that this is before I set the tooth clearances so they look large in this photo. I'm taking photos as I install.

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/img_0818.jpg
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blocks for the handle shaft, the gears are mounted on this. These blocks adjust the clearance of the gears with the eccentric bolts.

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/img_0820.jpg
https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/img_0825.jpg

[Brian Holcombe]

Milling cast iron into parts

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[Martin Shupe]

Brian, I would love to see photos of the install.

I have the kit, but have not installed it yet.

[Brian Holcombe]

I found it pretty straightforward but I’ll try to provide some detail on that aspect. The difficult part was also hard to photograph which was installing the gears onto the shaft inside the motor support (not sure the name for it). I took the handwheel off to gain visual access to the area, that was really easy. Just loosen the bolt and the hand wheel can slip off.

The shaft and pinion gears assemble. They’re a tight fit but they’re not a press fit. Once they’re in position I drove the spring pins out partially to retain the gears in position.

I did all this with the racks already installed, the long end sticks out of the back of the machine. I needed to purchase the rear bolts separately because I also have the dowel boring jig installed. This required additional planning.

the brass blocks go on, the bolts installed but not tightened. I then adjusted the eccentric bolts to position the brass blocks. I position the gear to engage rack in a way which has the gear teeth meshing with full contact along their faces but clearance between the peak and valley. I then tightened the bolts and locked down the eccentrics in position. The trick with the eccentric bolts is to engage them into their threaded holes but make certain that the threads are one turn back from protruding, so as to provide a full turn of adjustment without interference.

Handle goes on the shaft and a bolt retains the shaft on the opposite side. The bolt hole is shallower than any bolt in the kit so I ordered a bolt and washed for that. It allows a minor bit of play in the assembly, which is necessary.

I oiled the shaft where it engages the blocks and dry lubed the gears.

The chisel holder bolts on, mine was super accurate to the motor, so I doubt I could adjust it at all.

[Brian Holcombe]

Got the fence together, less a few details.

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/img_0843.jpg

I need to add more set screws along the side grips so that I can run the fence all the way up the front of the machine and off the back of the machine without issue. Need to machine a bit of clearance under the bottom of the main bar then put some holes for auxiliary fences. I also need to trim up the ends of the main bar and chamfer it, got a bit lazy there after some hours of the milling machine.

After that I'm starting to think of auxiliary fences, which can be just extruded aluminum sections with 90 degree supports on their undersides to help support long work. After which it will need to be able to hold a sacrificial wood section for through cuts and stops.

Maybe this will gain some interest.

[Patrick Walsh]

Very nice!

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks Patrick! Looking forward to putting it to use.

[Brian Holcombe]

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/img_0934.jpg

[Brian Holcombe]

Extrusion arrived, this thing is heavy! Nice and straight. Next I'll be building some wooden stops and supports. I could have used this support a few weeks ago, but surely more long work will be coming up as I have an 8' section to cut mortises into. I made it so that the support could be slid over in either direction to offer extra support where needed. It's nice and sturdy, and lifted off the table by about 1/16" so that it does not drag.

The washer setup wasn't holding firm enough so I made a new thing for clamping the side rails which seems to hold considerably firmer.

This fence now adds about 50lbs to this machine, right where it is needed most.

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/OLCPTi0Tny6gTRMYfzTw-372468748-1532798635975.jpg

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/EFN44sVPRKuIK3jngq6XDQ-166910848-1532798617512.jpg

[Van Huskey]

Brian, that is turning into a really nice setup, keep us updated.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thank you! Much appreciated. The stops are nearly complete, but it got to be too late in the evening to crosscut them to length.

I'm hoping that this fence lends itself well to adding on air clamps in the future. I'm thinking that some accessory can be made to hold the cylinder and cantilever it right off of the extrusion.

Here is the brass part I had mentioned:

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/6elShlX7QReM6lvwNGKFw-3859647612-1532831608779.jpg

There is no reason for it to be brass other than that I had some 1/4" naval brass that I am otherwise not going to use.

[Joe Calhoon]

Nice Fence Brian! The stops should be easier than a conventional HC as the fence is behind. Some pro and con the working horizontal vs the vertical setup.

Is the auger held by the 2 jaw chuck and the chisel secured with the Kipp lever on the attachment? Hard to tell from the photos. That is my one gripe about the Wadkin HC, the bushings for the augers.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks Joe! I do like these types of stops, I made up a set for my Festool tracks as well and they tend to be really easy to use.

Exactly, the two jaw chuck holds the auger and the kip lever setup holds the chisel. I’m going to be putting some serious hours on it shortly.

[Brian Holcombe]

Last update on this :D

Finally cut some squares and rectangles with this machine. The stops and fence were well worth the effort. I cut a lot of double mortises, so long as my stock and markout are perfect I can set both stops then flip the stock over to make the second mortise without resetting the machine.

I put krupp handles on everything to make life easier. Few minor things to touch up, like putting a nylon button under each end of the extrusion and making simple supports.

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/vuUGHBhgTYO0iLBVvnQkvw-1172025291-1533311161239.jpg

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/fullsizeoutput_7c3.jpeg

I cut some 1/2" mortises in doug fir and mahogany just to see if I could, worked really easily.

Sharpening up the chisels seems a process, I worked the outsides nicely and I'm working out a device to attend to the inside with success. So far I turned some wood bits and used 2500 grit diamond compound, worked OK but it needs a better substrate.