Nuther Black Cherry Vase

[John Hart]

Hi All,
A friend told me yesterday, with a very nice illustration, how my last vase might have been a tad on the chubby side :eek: . She was absolutely right, so I wanted to try a more slender approach. This was made from a badly checked blank, but it was an experiement so I didn't mind too much. It stands 7" Tall. The finish is my BLO/DNA/Shellac cocktail. Criticisms are much requested as I'd like to get this form as pleasing as possible.

Thanks!!

[Michael Stafford]

John, in one of the turning books by Richard Raffan he suggests turning shapes that you are considering in some scrap or otherwise undesirable wood and painting them flat black so that you can evaluate the form without the distraction of finish or grain. I look at your vase here and it is hard to evaluate it because my eye is drawn to the checks and grain. I kept asking myself what are those dark lines. I finally had to finish reading your post and then evaluate the shape as you requested.

That said there is something about the form that is not quite right to my eye. The proportions at the top and bottom are not quite right. I want the top fuller, just the opposite of what your friend said, and I want the curves to be more continuous. There appear to be some areas where the curve straightens out. Again this could be deceiving because of the shine and wood grain distractions. I think it has a lot of potential. You certainly do imaginative work. This piece is a candidate for a number of experiments such as bleaching, dyeing, texturing all of which would dramatically affect the way one looks at it.

[Travis Stinson]

John, could you take a profile pic against a white background with the vase backlighted? I tend to think the same as Mike about the curves, but it's a little hard to tell from this angle.

[John Hart]

Good idea Travis. I've been trying to see what Mike was talking about and I'm getting lost in the grain too. I think he's right though....My curve seems a tad flat. I'll go do that now and post in a few minutes

[Chris Barton]

I like it a lot John! That cherry is really nice stuff!

[Andy Hoyt]

Travis and Mike are right on the money about the curve straigghtening out.

However, I somewhat disagree with Mike about it needing to be chubbier. In my twisted way of seeing things, I'm not too critical of the girth of a piece like this as long as the curves are consistent. That's not to say it has to have the same radius throughout; just that if the radius needs to change it changes at a consistent rate. I think.:rolleyes:

[John Hart]

Ok...here's the backlit silhouette. I'll be danged....It's Flat!!!

[Michael Stafford]

Well, John I would not say it is flat but it does have some flat spots. Each to his own but I like slightly fuller curves flowing down to the bottom. Think of an upside down truncated tear drop that has had the pointy end cut off. I am sure there is no one answer to this question but John I believe that continuous fair curves make a difference to the eye. We need Mark Singer's eye and opinion on this as he probably has forgotten more about good form and design than I will ever know.....:o

[Keith Burns]

This is so much fun guys. One thing it shows is how different we all are in how we see things. I for one have never had any formal art training and I don't even know the 1/3-2/3 rule or what ever it is. The form/shape of a piece is always subjective. All that being said I personally like this form with only one thing I might do different and that would be to make the base a tad bit smaller. This kind of critique helps all of us become better turners.

[Travis Stinson]

Thanks John, that makes it a lil easier to see. Just taking a shot, I think it would flow better into the base if it was a tad shorter-maybe an inch. Then the base smaller to let the curves of the sides flow smoothly into it.

[John Hart]

Ya know....I think I just figured out what bothers me about this piece. First off, I agree that the curves need to be curves...no flat spots. Secondly...the bottom...I agree that it needs to be smaller.
But my big revelation...If the top had a lip, then the shoulder width would be fine as is...but since it has no lip, the shoulder width should be narrower as well as the bottom, with a graceful curve throughout.

But then...this is coming from a guy who has ZERO artistic eye! (Which is why I need so much help from y'all):) :)

[John Hart]

Thanks John, that makes it a lil easier to see. Just taking a shot, I think it would flow better into the base if it was a tad shorter-maybe an inch. Then the base smaller to let the curves of the sides flow smoothly into it.

Shorter? I was thinking taller!:confused: I gotta think about this. Coming from you Travis, I have to take this very seriously...your work is awesome. Time to go to the thinking chair methinks.;)

[Andy Hoyt]

I actually like it better now, although I cannot explain why.

Part of my trouble with trying to cut these lines is that quite often my mind and eye recommend something to my hands and the hands don't get the message; so the gouge does what it was gonna do all along!

[John Hart]

I actually like it better now, although I cannot explain why.

Part of my trouble with trying to cut these lines is that quite often my mind and eye recommend something to my hands and the hands don't get the message; so the gouge does what it was gonna do all along!

heh heh....me too Andy...me too :o

[Loy Hawes]

For what it's worth, sometimes I will open up Paint or Photoshop and start drawing curves. It allows me to experiment easily with ideas. I recently bought a dry erase board for the garage so I can do the same thing.

[Carole Valentine]

I started all this when I played with John's first vase on Photoshop and narrowed the base to see what it looked like. I do this with a lot of pics as part of my learning curve. It was a quickie so I didn't take alot of time with the curves when I modified it. Anyway, John with your permission I can post the pic of the comparison that I sent you and see what the gang thinks. Personally I think you are right that if the new vase had a neck or a collar the shoulders wouldn't look as flat. And just little fairer curve from the shoulder to the base. I'm learning from all this...it makes me really take a second look. I hope everyone else is enjoying and learning as well.

[Andy Hoyt]

Oh Joy! Carole's gonna post a picture and Loy is subscribed to the thread. Loy, do you still have that cigar?

[John Hart]

....Anyway, John with your permission I can post the pic of the comparison that I sent you and see what the gang thinks. .....

Sure Carole!....Like Keith said....We all become better turners....Please, show the pic! (Like Andy said...Loy's watchin'...salivating :D )


Loy.....Even though I'm a computer geek by trade....I'll do the Dry Erase Board or paper before I'll get in front of the computer...'specially when it comes to working in the shop. I have a computer in there, but I usually just watch the news. :) I should start sketching things up instead of this "flying by the seat of my pants" method!

[Loy Hawes]

It's laying around here somewhere Andy. :D

Carole, I was just doing the same thing with John's hollowform in Photoshop. I tried distorting it with the pinch filter and shaving a little off the sides with the erase tool. I quit because everytime I went back to the original I liked it better than what I did. looking forward to seeing what you came up with.

[Carole Valentine]

But it is a matter of proportion. Art Liestman is the master of one of my favorite forms. I have yet to be able to turn it right, but here is a profile of it. As you can see it is quite plump, but the curves are fair and the base is small. In my opinion, everything about the form "works".

[Carole Valentine]

the one on the left is John's original and the one on the right was my tinkering.

[Loy Hawes]

That is a nice form. I just checked out Art's website. His puzzle pieces are pretty cool.

http://www.artliestman.com/

[Loy Hawes]

the one on the left is John's original and the one on the right was my tinkering.


Nice photoshop work!
It looks like his and hers vases.

[John Hart]

Well, I'm going to have to sleep on this and attack something wooden tomorrow. I just went to Art's website. Sheesh! His work is like sculpture! Yeah Loy, Carole's Photoshop work really set me off on a new path. Incredibly inspirational. Now, if I can only do something constructive with it.:o

[Gary DeWitt]

Just want to say, what an inspiring group. I get a lot out of these discussions of the fine points of form.

Carole: Great Photoshop work. I'm a graphic artist, I know.

Brace yourselves, I'm on my way out to my shop to turn something, A piece I failed at yesterday. We'll see, may even have the guts this time to take a pic and post it here...

[Ernie Kuhn]

John,
What do you use for a hollowing setup?
I haven't done any hollow forms but getting closer to the start.
Ernie

[John Hart]

Okie Dokie....I slept on everyone's input and decided on this form. It's a departure from the triangular form but mainly, I wanted to work on my curves. Oh...and I gave it a little hat!!!:)

[John Hart]

John,
What do you use for a hollowing setup?
I haven't done any hollow forms but getting closer to the start.
Ernie

Ernie...I'm afraid that I might be the wrong person to ask that question. I just use a tool rest and a side scraper that I made. I know there are some cool rigs out there....but I'm still attending the School of Hard Knocks (sometimes...REALLY HARD! :eek: :D )

[Travis Stinson]

That looks great John! Nice, continuous flow all the way.:)

[Andy Hoyt]

Look great, John. And very close to that gray line drawing Carole posted.

If anything, perhaps a snoodge thinner in the thighs?

[Carole Valentine]

Looks like you're getting those curves down pat, John! Now, do we get a full color photo or are you hiding something?:D

[Michael Stafford]

Definitely full and continuous curves, so what did you turn that out of? Are we gonna see a finished product pic?;)

[John Hart]

....Now, do we get a full color photo or are you hiding something?:D

Hiding something?....Who...Me??? :D Ok...This is a Mesquite log that Ernie Nyvall sent me a while back. The little hat is Ebony. It stands 7" tall and 6" in diameter. I sealed it with some thinned shellac then finished with lacquer, then buffed. Mesquite is such a pleasure to turn...It smells good, no tear-out, like butter.

[Michael Stafford]

Hiding something?....Who...Me??? :D Ok...This is a Mesquite log that Ernie Nyvall sent me a while back. The little hat is Ebony. It stands 7" tall and 6" in diameter. I sealed it with some thinned shellac then finished with lacquer, then buffed. Mesquite is such a pleasure to turn...It smells good, no tear-out, like butter.

Isn't it interesting how different the form looks when you see the color, grain and finish? They all add depth to the form that is not there when you see it in silhouette or when it is matte black. Most interesting.

John, that is a wonderful looking piece of wood. Nicely done!;)

[Bill Stevener]

Top Draw John,
Nice line, I didn't think it was all Ebony.
Just sitting back and watching.
Bill.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>:) :) :) :) :)

[Carole Valentine]

Well, what can I say except Mom is proud of you!:D There is a HUGE difference between this form and your others. You did this without anything but a side ground scraper? Could we see a pic of that tool? I spent a fortune on stupid hollowing tools...should have just said "Hey John! Make me a scraper!";)
Your next assignment, John, should you choose to accept it :D, is a "hat" with crisp edges and points and a thinner base so there is less of a step to the body. BTW, that's also my assignment...working on crisper finials (hats) LOL I am not, I might add, making a whole lot of progress in that area!:o

[Carole Valentine]

Isn't it interesting how different the form looks when you see the color, grain and finish? They all add depth to the form that is not there when you see it in silhouette or when it is matte black. Most interesting.

John, that is a wonderful looking piece of wood. Nicely done!;)

I was thinking the same thing Michael. You almost wouldn't know it was the same piece!

[John Hart]

Well, I thank you all. I think that the initial observations about form the other day set me in a direction that I really needed to go and all the helpful insights by everyone simply fueled that drive. Carole did it!!!:)

Now, about that scraper.... I did all the hollowing with the scraper but did the outside with the skew. My scraper is the ugliest thing you've ever seen. There ain't anything special about it except it is ugly. Time to call it a night....but I'll post a pic tomorrow. Sheesh! This is going to be embarrassing. :o

[Blake McCully]

But my big revelation...If the top had a lip, then the shoulder width would be fine as is...but since it has no lip, the shoulder width should be narrower as well as the bottom, with a graceful curve throughout.

John,
My thoughts exactly. I'm astounded nobody else suggested it. I don't know how large the opening is, but if you have a 1" pen blank of ebony, you could make a collar out of that. I have one like that, I'll have to look around for it and take a pic. It's not as good as yours but the lip/mouth/collar is what I'd like to show.

One other thing, the wood I made the HV I'm going to post was still green. I finished it and set it aside. About two weeks later, a buddy of mine picked it up and said "How'd you do dat?" Do what I asked. This thing is oval, what'd you do? I said, sheepishly, just let it dry I suppose. The oval shape seems to reduce some of the design errors.

Later, keep up the good work. Experimentation is the key. Sometimes you really do get a silk purse from a sow's ear.

[Ernie Kuhn]

Nice "hat" John. I'll try the side scraper.
Ernie

[John Hart]

Nice "hat" John. I'll try the side scraper.
Ernie

Thanks everyone for you kind comments!!! Oh....speaking of Hats...The Mesquite Form is 7" tall Hatless.

Ernie...you're asking for it! :eek: But I really do like the School of Hard Knocks....Sorta like Bootcamp....pain...discipline...pain.;)

[Ernie Kuhn]

John,
You promised a picture of your "ugly" scraper? All I've got at the moment is a round nose scraper and I'm not sure the answer is to grind it on the side.
Ernie

[John Hart]

John,
You promised a picture of your "ugly" scraper? All I've got at the moment is a round nose scraper and I'm not sure the answer is to grind it on the side.
Ernie

Yep...I was going to take a picture as soon as I got home tonight....so, early evening I expect..you'll see my Frankenstein. Personally, I'd leave the round nose scraper alone Ernie and use it to turn a handle for another piece of steel.
I live in a very old house and there's remnants of old tools stashed in various cubbies here and there. I found a chisel buried in the yard when I dug up my pear tree. That's what I used for my side-ground scraper. It was also recommended to me to use old files because the steel was perfect. Just recently, I bought a large file that will be ideal for a new scraper with longer reach. (I want to start doing taller HFs)

It's interesting that this scraper you'll see tonight doesn't chatter like my round nose scraper in the same scenarios. I've switched and tried both on the same turning to compare their performance. I think it has a lot to do with "angle of approach". But I'm just guessing. I'm fairly new to turning. Some of these veterans can certainly answer better than I.

[Mark Cothren]

I like 'em all, John. The variety of shapes looks good to me. But I'm still very much a rookie at this turnin' thing. Sounds like you're getting (and listening to) some great advice from some great turners on here.

[Ernie Kuhn]

John,
Can't wait to see it. I have a couple of old, mostly defunct chisels laying around that I found at garage sales, intending to rehab them but "round-to-its" haven't gone on sale yet. Hopefully good candidates for side scraper. We'll see.
Ernie

[Dennis Peacock]

Ever notice John.....that looking at the form Carole posted in this thread? The grey plain form? Check out other forms like that. You'll see that the bottom of the form and the top of the form are almost exactly the same size. In symmetry if you will.

Sheesh..!!!! Did "I" say that? :eek: :confused: How can a red neck Arky say sumpin' like that? I must have lost myself in a turning forum somewhere.:rolleyes: :D

[Carole Valentine]

Sheesh..!!!! Did "I" say that? :eek: :confused: How can a red neck Arky say sumpin' like that? I must have lost myself in a turning forum somewhere.:rolleyes: :D
ROFL! Careful Dennis, you may tarnish your image!

[John Hart]

I was down in Mammoth Springs, AR last summer, and there was a guy trying to say, "symmetry" and all he could get out was, "hand me another beer, John." Lucky for me, I have family living on the MO/AR border and I understand what he really meant. ;)

There was a show on the Science Channel, "Understanding Beauty", and in it, they discussed things in nature and things made by people that are "beautiful". I think you're on to something Dennis....the top and bottom being symetrical, plus, I'll bet that the location of the high arc of the shoulder is a specific distance from the top which is beauty that you can calculate and create on purpose (some specified % of total height and related to width) I'll have to watch that tape again. (yes...I still have tapes :D )

I rely on these scientific approaches because I have no fashion sense and no artistic ability.

[Bill Stevener]

[quote=John Hart] It was also recommended to me to use old files because the steel was perfect. Just recently, I bought a large file that will be ideal for a new scraper with longer reach. (I want to start doing taller HFs)

Hi John,
Just some room for thought.
First, files are for filing. A great tool used for what it was designed for. Modifications of the same, used as a "hand scraper" can work well, if one can dress it properly. Being a HT steal, it does not always except a bur on the edge that will last for any length of time.
Additionally, as the file is a HT steal, and if I may put it this way, about as strong and flexible as glass, placing the same over a tool rest for a long reach is a picture for disaster. HT steal is not HSS steel.
If I may and what I have found and recommended to use and modify, which make great scrapers, if you hunt for them, are the old thicker sawmill blades. Some of the old, discarded two man saw blades work well also, when adapted for scrapers. Just some great old steal.
Personally, I would not consider using a file, for use on a lathe other than, if need be, hand filing, not under stress.
Hope some of this helps, If not, you may delete it.:D
Have a Safe and Happy day,
Bill.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>:)

[John Hart]

Ya know Bill, I'm not going to delete your post, and I'll tell ya why.....Since that time when it was recommended to me to use a file, I was very concerned about the brittleness and never fully comfortable. I am very comfortable with the old chisels however. Your argument is valid...your post must stay.:D :p

[Bill Stevener]

John, the old chisels work very well, also some good old steal. If you know what a "Slice" is, and poke around the old docks, and or find one cheap enough at a tag sale, that the owner has no idea of what it is, they make about the best long reach scraper you will ever use and own. However, just a shame to modify an old tool, but some times can be found in a condition, that's all they are good for.
If you find two, I'll take one:D .
Bill.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>:)

[Mike Ramsey]

John, I like it, but there are so many ways to go..One way would be
to fill it with dried beans, plug the top and use it for Maracas :D .
Just kidding....

[Ernie Kuhn]

Bill,
What's a "slice"? Here in desert country, we're a bit far from the docks.
Ernie

[John Hart]

I had to look it up Ernie. Looks like it's official name is "Slice Bar" or a "Peel". I couldn't find a picture, but it sounds like a giant chisel.

But...on to Frankenstein. This has about a 6" reach. If I have to go farther, I'll finish the bottom with my round nosed scraper that has an 8" reach....but I get a lot of chatter. I realize that I should have a ferral on the handle but it's Ash and has held up very well. As you can see, I didn't care about looks.:o So anyway...this is what I do all my hollowing and bowl work with. The outside of the piece, I do with a skew.

I just got a piece of steel from our maintenance department that ought to give me an 11" reach. So tonight, I'm going to try and grind it and turn a handle

[Andy Hoyt]

John - Oh man is that UGLY!. But it looks like it'll do the job.



Bill,
What's a "slice"? Here in desert country, we're a bit far from the docks.
Ernie
It might be that the reference is actually to a "slick". As far as I know, there are only two industries that use them - and for the same purpose.

I spent many many years as a timberframer and used a slick all the time for paring tenons on scarf joints and such. Builders of wooden ships use(d) them for essentially the same thing.

Here's a picture of one. The blade is 8" long and it's about 32" overall.

[Ernie Nyvall]

Wow John, great job on that mesquite. Glad you could get some use out of it.

As far as the other vase, well I was just happy with what all was said. I didn't have a clue, but learned a lot from this thread.

Ernie

[Michael Stafford]

John, that is one ugly tool! I swear that looks like something left over from the bronze age! But if it works and pretty things are the result who am I to judge. I sure couldn't come close to that kind of hollow from work. Give it a coat of paint or something, make it look like it didn't originate in a 3rd world country....:p :D

[Carole Valentine]

Man, is that thing ever uuuuugly!:D Looks like you went out of your way to make it as ugly as possible! The glue squeeze out adds an extra touch to the bohemian look. :p Appears that it works great, though. I'm sitting here thinking "Carole, look at what John does with just a skew and a uuuugly shop made scraper! He does better stuff than you do with your stupid Sorby Hollowmaster, Scopion, Stinger, 3 bowl gouges, 3 spindle gouges, Wolverine, etc." Just goes to show it ain't the tool...it's the craftsman who uses the tool.

Carole (who is seriously thinking about selling all her fancy-schmancy HSS and treking down to the docks to look for a peel, slick, slice or whatever it's called):(

[Loy Hawes]

I hopped in my time machine and went back to the iron age. You guys are never gonna guess what I found! It was John! and he was trading with the locals. It looks like he picked up that scraper for a six pack of pepsi.

Oh, if you are wondering what was in the hut. It was a certain DeLorean.

[Bill Stevener]

Hay John,
You put that up on the unmentionable auction channel in the wood lathe section, and I can almost hear it now, "do I hear $300.00. What works. works.
Andy, you have placed it just about right. I am familiar with the term slick, as you have noted. During a summer recess, while off from furthering my education, I excepted a job with a dock building crew. The Crew chief (General Gorilla) handed me a tool, for which the term they used was a slice, and said "go and dress up the top of the piles. The with of the blade was 4" and about 12" - 14" long, sharp as a razor, supporting a handle the size of a baseball bat. I said ok, I'll hold it, but who is going to hit it? Boy, did I catch it then--- I learned it is not hit, rather slung under your arm and pushed. Once mastered, it's a great tool.
Anyway, different trade, could be just a different term, but they do make a great long reach scraper.
Sure would like to find another one ---- cheep,
Bill.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>:)

[Andy Hoyt]

..... Sure would like to find another one ---- cheep, Bill.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>:)

Go dig up John's last remaining pear tree. Oughtta find something that'll work.:cool:

[John Hart]

Thank you all....I feel much better now!:D

Loy, Yer KILLING ME!!!! I had to go get a kleenex!! fast!!!!:D :D