Help me choose a bandsaw size

[Edwin Santos]

Hi,
I am in the market for a bandsaw upgrade. I am considering the SCM Minimax and the choice is 16" or 20". My applications are dimensioning (resawing and ripping) 6-10" width boards, but also contour cutting parts, sometimes signs with a 1/8" blade.

The two models have the same motor size, 4.8 hp. Generally I lean to more of an artisan sized saw and less of a brute monster. However, setting price out of the equation, I have the idea that even with an identical motor, larger diameter, heavier wheels are better for cutting performance (inertia) and for reduced blade fatigue.

On the other hand, I have heard no reports of blade fatigue problems or performance limitations with the 16" machine and I sometimes wonder if the larger machines are built primarily for resawing and don't lend themselves to artisan work with narrower blades.

Then again, there seems to be some law of the universe where every time I use rational logic and buy a certain size of machine, I later wish I had bought the next size up.

I realize this a personal choice and there is no universal right answer, but I'd love to hear from others who have found themselves in a similar quandary.

Maybe the questions should be:
1. Has anyone ever bought the smaller machine in a choice and later wished they had gone bigger?
2. Has anyone ever bought the larger and later wished they had gone smaller?

Any feedback appreciated, Edwin

[Andrew Hughes]

Go big, 20 inch the longer blade will last longer. Might also have a bigger table.
I have a 20 inch and a 14. I would have gone to a 24 when I bought my 20 but I wasn't even sure if my electrical service could handle starting a 7.5 single phase motor.
I know it will now because Edison has been good to me.:)

[Van Huskey]

I own both (and bigger saws as well) and I think the MM20 is the best all around saw, one thing I like about larger saws is the larger table. Even of all the other capacity was the same the extra table size is highly appreciated, at least by me.

However, I did notice the desire to use a 1/8" blade, while it is doable on these saws with either a Carter Stabilizer, the Minimax "Cool Blocks" or chunks of hardwood held between the Euro guides (Blasco guides as I call them since AFAIK Sam Blasco was the first t use them) the flat tires on the MM saws is not remotely ideal for running a 1/8" blade. If the budget is set at the roughly $4500 price of the MM20 and you plan to use 3/16" and 1/8" blades often I would suggest getting the MM16 and also a 14" saw with crowned wheels. The venerable US made Delta is an excellent choice here and good ones at good prices are always on Craigs List as long as you are willing to drive a few miles. There are also plenty of good options new as well that won't break the bank.

I don't know where you are located but there are several MM16s on Craig's List in different parts of the country right now, you could use Searchtempest to check the area which you are willing to drive to.

[Jim Becker]

Of the two, I'd also select the larger saw. While they are going to be similar in cutting performance with the same motor, etc., the reasons that folks have already supplied are good ones...bigger wheels are easier on the bands and for you, there's a little more workspace to enjoy. I do agree with Van that if you will be doing some reasonable quantity of narrow blade work, having a smaller saw dedicated for that is a good idea. While you can run narrow blades on these bigger machines, they are not optimal for that with flat tires that will greatly reduce band life/set.

[John TenEyck]

If you want only one saw then I recommend you look at the 17" Grizzly G0636X. It has a 5 HP motor and heavy crowned wheels, so it can run 1/8" blades a lot easier than on the flat tires of the MM saws. But I'm with Van, I would buy the MM16 or the G0636X (which is every bit as good, IMHO, and a lot cheaper) and get a 14" saw, too. That's what I have in my shop. A 1" resaw blade stays in the Grizzly and everything else gets done on the Delta.

John

[Van Huskey]

If you want only one saw then I recommend you look at the 17" Grizzly G0636X. It has a 5 HP motor and heavy crowned wheels, so it can run 1/8" blades a lot easier than on the flat tires of the MM saws. ... G0636X (which is every bit as good, IMHO, and a lot cheaper) and get a 14" saw, too. That's what I have in my shop. A 1" resaw blade stays in the Grizzly and everything else gets done on the Delta.

John

The problem is what the G0636 gains in trackability for the small blades it gives away with the large minimum distance of the lower guides to the table and reduced blade control. Also, the delivered price between the G0636 and the MM16 is about $300, the Grizzly has lost most of its price edge since its introduction when it was indeed a lot cheaper.

[John TenEyck]

When I bought mine 2 or 3 years ago the price difference was over $1K. You're right, the difference now is only $300 or $400. The lower guides on the Grizzly are pretty low, but you can replace the stock table insert with a ZCI brass or wooden one if you need better blade support. In the end, running 1/8" blades is a compromise one way or the other on any larger saw, as you described above on the MM saws, which is why I kept my Delta.

I thought about redesigning the lower guide assembly so that it fits up closer to the bottom of the table, but the saw cuts so well with the 1" blades I use that I never got beyond just thinking about it.

John

[Van Huskey]

When I bought mine 2 or 3 years ago the price difference was over $1K. You're right, the difference now is only $300 or $400. The lower guides on the Grizzly are pretty low, but you can replace the stock table insert with a ZCI brass or wooden one if you need better blade support. In the end, running 1/8" blades is a compromise one way or the other on any larger saw, as you described above on the MM saws, which is why I kept my Delta.

I thought about redesigning the lower guide assembly so that it fits up closer to the bottom of the table, but the saw cuts so well with the 1" blades I use that I never got beyond just thinking about it.

John

These saws were just never designed for tiny blades, whether they are listed to run them or not. You can kludge them as I mentioned with a several methods including a Stabilizer (the one that fits the MM saws is listed as a Jet but I can't remember which OTTOMH and I assume there is one to fit the 636 but you would likely have to refer to the line drawings. Going down to 1/4" is no problem, the 1/8" and 3/16" really beg for a different saw.

At this point I think it is hard to argue the value of the 636 against the MM16, given the MM16 has a triple boxed spine and part of the only line of US available bandsaws made completely in an EU country including the cast iron. The resell is very high on the MM saws due to reputation and they don't carry the $600 price tag for tire replacement. I assume the 636's tires are vulcanized (the only reason I can think of to require wheels to be purchased to replace the tires) and while they should last a very long time Grizzly does not offer a replacement service as Agazzani did with their vulcanized tires. The 636 is a very nice saw just not the bargain it used to be.

[Matthew Hills]

Are the lower guides on the 636 any lower than on the S400?
(I thought the S400 guides were already quite low)

Matt

[Van Huskey]

Are the lower guides on the 636 any lower than on the S400?
(I thought the S400 guides were already quite low)

Matt

The MM saws let you adjust the guide to just under the table (very close) the 636 is much further away at the top and has a metal "blade guard" above the guides as well. The MM saws guides are tooless in contrast to the guides on the 636. If you are interested I can take a picture of the MM bottom guides, just let me know.

[Robert Cherry]

Make sure you consider the delivery cost of the SCM machines. When I spoke to Sam a few months ago they were considering moving to a “white glove” delivery model which carries a high cost. Not sure if it was ever implemented or not.

[Van Huskey]

Make sure you consider the delivery cost of the SCM machines. When I spoke to Sam a few months ago they were considering moving to a “white glove” delivery model which carries a high cost. Not sure if it was ever implemented or not.

I did, Minimax differs from Felder and Grizzly for example in that they have an actual dealer network and several of them charge no extra shipping and do not COLLECT sales tax. While I really like Sam if the factory can't match a dealer price I'll go with the dealer.

[Edwin Santos]

The MM saws let you adjust the guide to just under the table (very close) the 636 is much further away at the top and has a metal "blade guard" above the guides as well. The MM saws guides are tooless in contrast to the guides on the 636. If you are interested I can take a picture of the MM bottom guides, just let me know.

This distinction on the lower guide is good to know. However Van I think you're earlier point is the key one - that this class of machine was not designed for tight scroll cutting with very narrow blades (3/16, 1/8). The place where these machines really excel seems to be resawing and ripping.
This aspect of the discussion is reminding me about an urban legend I once heard that these Euro machines were not originally designed to have lower guides at all, and that they were only added to satisfy the US market. Maybe you'd know if this is true or not.
I can see where it might be the case, because it seems to me that wider, larger blades under high tension would be less reliant on the guides and thrust bearings, and might do just fine without lower guides, or with lower guides further from the table.

The feedback and the input is very helpful.

The table size of the MM16/S400p is about 17.5"x23.5" versus the MM20/S500p which is about 19.5"x27.5" so roughly 2" larger in one direction and 4" in the other.
Van, since you own both models, when do you find yourself heading to the MM16 instead of the MM20 and vice versa?

Edwin

[Van Huskey]

As for the myth or legend, I have heard it but never seen it verified, I simply don't know but it is a nice "tale".

As for what I use the individual saws for understanding I am a bandsaw nut or more likely a bandsaw idiot. I don't change blades, I change saws and have more saws that I am willing to admit. So each saw is limited to an individual task. My MM24 has a feeder and is used for heavy resawing and the occasional ripping (nice to have the long table). The MM20 is set up with a 1" Trimaster for my resaws I do by hand but are still tall and I am not worried about the kerf along with some ripping if the stock is so wide the feeder would have to come off the bigger saw. The MM16 is rather under-utilized since it is used for thin kerf hand fed resawing using a 3/4" Kerfmaster. I have other saws with progressively more narrow blades for contour cutting and one set up for bowl blank roughing.

Now, I am currently set up in a temporary shop as we recently moved and I am just finishing plans and permits for my new shop. I only have room in this shop for one bandsaw and chose the MM20 so I will avoid smaller than 1/4" blades unless I put on the Stabilizer and I am not sure I even have a 3/16 or 1/8 blade to fit currently. The MM20 is probably my call for the one saw to do it all but I would REALLY like a small saw or at least one with a good crown to handle the scroll type work but honestly, I rarely use them. Even though I have a dedicated saw for this I really only keep that saw because I really like the saw and having a 3/16" blade on it is my only justification to keep it, no matter how thinly veiled the justification is.

I don't think you would regret a MM20 purchase and keep in mind if you really need a small blade but aren't using it daily even the small 10" Rikon will handle that work but 14" saws are literally all over CL all the time despite the fact many owners think their vintage US Deltas are worth a mint there are a lot of them sanely priced.

[andy bessette]

My own choice was a 20" Agazzani (with 1" carbide blade) and a 14" Delta-X5 (with 1/4" blade). This setup seems perfect for me in my overcrowded shop. Bought the two machines in like new condition for ~$2,000.

https://s26.postimg.cc/f4srqbcuh/shop-9.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://s26.postimg.cc/6w6lt1jgp/delta-bandsaw-1.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[Van Huskey]

My own choice was a 20" Agazzani (with 1" carbide blade)



I mourn the loss of Agazzani, while they weren't my favorite of the Euro saws Jesse at Eagle provided the best most dependable new sales experience. He simply provided a first class experience that is near non-existent in hobby sized machines.

You can get some great deals on Italian saws if you are patient, vigilant and are willing to drive to pick them up. My MM20 was $2250 cole to being "like new" and it probably had $1000 of accessories and brand new blades with it. I did drive 700 miles round trip to get it though.

[Matthew Hills]

The MM saws let you adjust the guide to just under the table (very close) the 636 is much further away at the top and has a metal "blade guard" above the guides as well. The MM saws guides are tooless in contrast to the guides on the 636. If you are interested I can take a picture of the MM bottom guides, just let me know.

The guide on my S400 gets to within 7" of the table...
387312

I'd pretty much bought into the legend and hadn't worried about it too much.

Am curious whether people have problems tensioning the really narrow blades. I know it doesn't take terribly many turns to tension a 1/2" or 3/4" blade, so I'd be worried about breaking a 1/8"...

Matt

[Van Huskey]

The guide on my S400 gets to within 7" of the table...


That was in the arguably misguided Carter guide days, the guides are actually very nice with the proper perpendicular hardened guide bearing but they were poorly retrofit into the bottom guide area. This is a picture of the Euro guides, they are within 1/2" of the bottom of the table casting web

.387317

Man I had no idea I had taken over 1500 pictures of odd bandsaw parts, I need to catalog them better, it took me forever to find that one!

Here is a much better stock image with the Euro guides

387315


I had one of my pictures of the G0636x lower guides but it really didn't give much of an indication of distance and it guides were covered with sawdust and the pic was dark so I looked for a better picture than mine. Didn't find a good one but the manual picture shows how the guides are below even the bottom of the trunnion.

387318

[John TenEyck]

I don't know why Grizzly put the guides so low on the G0636X, but it doesn't seem to matter when using 25K psi on a 3/4" or larger blade. It cuts beautifully straight. It wouldn't be hard to modify them to fit right up under the table, but I'd probably do what Jack Forsberg showed with a plate insert instead if I wanted to run a small blade occasionally. Fortunately, I have the 14" Delta for small work. Adjusting the guides on the Grizzly is not hard, FWIW. Grizzly even gives you the tools to do so.

Just to clear up an earlier comment. The G06363X has a large cross section double box beam spine and it is incredibly stiff. The upper guides stay aligned with the blade over the full range of motion up to at least 27K psi on a 1" blade, the highest I've run so far, which means there is very, very little frame deflection. Don't get me wrong, if the price difference to the MM16 (whatever they call it now) were less than $500 to my door, and I was interested in selling it someday, I'd buy that over the Grizzly. But when I bought mine the Grizzly was a lot cheaper, had a far superior fence and lock down, and I wasn't thinking about ever trading up. As for the tires wearing out, I doubt that will ever happen in my remaining woodworking years. Non-issue unless you are a 20 something and a heavy user.

I absolutely agree with several comments earlier, including yours IIRC, if I could have only one bandsaw it would most likely be a MM20. But I'd sure hate trying to run a 1/8" blade on it.

John

[David Kumm]

When you tension 1" blades at 25000 or so, the guides don't come into play much anymore. I've taken the upper guides off completely on my old Oliver 217 when I need an extra 2" or resaw and don't miss them when resawing 15" oak so I wouldn't sweat their location as long as they aren't in the way. I run the old Wright or Hanchett guides and like them but it is really only the back bearing that gets occasional use. Like Van, I never change blades although the Oliver will run small ones. I use a Yates Y20 for that purpose. Dave

[Van Huskey]

Guides are basically a non-issue during hand fed resawing, in one of Sam Blasco's videos he shows resawing with the guides completely backed off. The only reason to give it much weight at all is if you are going to use the saw as an all-rounder.

In the end Edwin should just get the bigger saw it is so rare to hear "I wish I had bought the smaller machine" unless it is a real estate issue. He can try guiding the small blades with some of the options presented in the thread and if he is unhappy with the tiny blade performance then he has a good excuse to buy a smaller saw.

[John Sanford]

Are the table heights the same? 'Cause you sure as heck don't want to be doing tight scroll type work on 3/4" stock on a table designed for resawing. Your back will express it's displeasure with the notion.

[Van Huskey]

Are the table heights the same? 'Cause you sure as heck don't want to be doing tight scroll type work on 3/4" stock on a table designed for resawing. Your back will express it's displeasure with the notion.

The MM16 and MM20 have the same table height ~35", the 24 is just a little taller (less than an inch) and starts to jump with the 28 as the wheel size begins to dictate table height. Just another reason to have a second saw.

[Edwin Santos]

Hello all,
I thought I would report back on my decision regarding bandsaw upgrade. I received some good recommendations in this thread and chose to follow them so I took delivery of a new SCM MM20/S500p last week. I have no regrets choosing it over the smaller MM16. Obviously I'm still getting acquainted with it, but after some minor tuning I installed a 1" Woodmaster CT and sliced an oak board with ease into 1/16 veneers. When laid out next to each other across a table in a slipmatch, I can feel almost no variations.

You might remember part of the dilemma was wanting to retain the ability to do intricate work with narrow blades. It's kind of obvious that a brute like this was designed for resawing and ripping. So I've kept my smaller Laguna/Meber saw, perched it up on a platform, and dedicated it to the finer contour work. It's a luxury to go back and forth between two bandsaws set up for different purposes.

By the way, I give SCM high marks for service, shipping, fit and finish of the machine.

Here are a couple of photos of the new saw, and the smaller one in the background. Thanks again for the input!
Regards,
Edwin

388598388599388600

[David Kumm]

Sweet. If you have the room, multiples make life good. Dave

[Jim Becker]

That's a darn good choice, Edwin! And yea....it's really nice you could keep the smaller saw for scrolling, etc. I wish I had the space for that when I moved up to my MM16 year ago, but alas, I did not.

[Van Huskey]

Glad you are happy with the saw and shipping was uneventful. Given I can see you have a nice amount of shop space you should be keeping an eye on Craig's List for a little saw to run those 3/16 and 1/8" blades on we discussed. Less of a compromise than changing out the Meber's guides and won't be a lot more money if you buy right. The thing my eye actually went to was not the saws but the bands (well the sticker of Bob on the Meber as well), nice to see you are ready for any type of war on wood that might break out!

[andy bessette]

Attaboy! You won't regret having both bandsaws.

[David Kumm]

I run the same guides on both my saws. They work for all size blades. Wright guides are still my favorites. Dave388611388612388613

[Edwin Santos]

Given I can see you have a nice amount of shop space you should be keeping an eye on Craig's List for a little saw to run those 3/16 and 1/8" blades on we discussed.

The crating from the last bandsaw is still outside my shop door and he casually suggests looking for the next one. This is how addictions start.
Next thing you know, bandsaws will start spontaneously appearing like Tribbles on the Enterprise.

[Van Huskey]

The crating from the last bandsaw is still outside my shop door and he casually suggests looking for the next one. This is how addictions start.
Next thing you know, bandsaws will start spontaneously appearing like Tribbles on the Enterprise.

At least the bandsaws won't eat your grain only wood you feed them, so there is no tribble with bandsaws. (said in the Aberdeen accent of Scotty)


Apologies for coopting possible the worst line of humor in the entire Star Trk franchise.