Oneida Duct Design

[Chris McKimson]

I recently purchased an Oneida 3HP Super Gorilla and ask Oneida to do the design for my shop. Much to my surprise, 4 of the 6 drops were designed to be 4" drops. At this point, most of my machine ports (TS, Jointer, Performax, Edge Sander etc) are 4".

I know there have been many Creeker's having bought an Oneida cyclone in the past and for those of you having Oneida come up with a design for your cyclone, did they include 4" drops? When I ask that they revise the design to 5" drops, there was a label on the plan that stated "Oneida will not guarantee collection at these drops" because I had requested the change.

Most everything I've read suggests trying to use 6" drops then reducing right at the tool.

Are folks using 4" drops designed by Oneida and are not fessing up? :eek: I had hoped in buying the cyclone and metal ducting from Oneida, I had hoped to "do this right", but still there is this little "Bill Pentz Voice" :) in my head saying "your ducting should be 6 inches". I should add I plan on only using 1 tool at a time and don't mind closing blast gate.

Clearly I'm conflicted between going with the Oneida design or doing something else?

Thanks in advance for the input.

Chris

[Chris Rosenberger]

I see no reason to oversize the drops. If you have a 6" pipe with a 4" inlet, there will not be enough air moving through the pipe to keep it cleared out. To work correctly the pipe needs to be sized for the amount of air going through it. All of the drops on my system are sized for the machines they connect to. The main trunk starts out at 12" & reduces down as each drop comes off. Go with the Oneida design. They are professionals.

[Chris Fite]

I just got my design from Oneida for my 2 hp Gorilla. None of the drops is 4 inches. I have a couple of wyes that split into 4 inches and something else to accommodate things such as the overarm guard on my table saw and the pick up for my drill press. The smallest piping that runs to a drop is 6 inches reduced to 5 inches at a wye, then to the tool itself: floor sweep, planer, sliding miter saw, table saw. I have no piping runs to any substantial tools that are 4 inches.

[John Bush]

Hi Chris,
The 4" drops with my system are working just fine. I've finally started making some dust and I had to empty the drum twice last Sun. With your 3hp you should have more than enough volume and speed of air to remove all the dust and possible some of the paint off your machines. You may want to make sure you toupe is well adhered- it may end up in the bin too. Let me know how the system goes in. Call if you need some help. I've installed one system so I'm an expert now. Good luck, John.

[Gary Kittleson]

I had Oneida work up a design within the last 3 weeks. My main line is 6". I have a 5" drop planned to my jointer (I only need 350 fpm there), and I am also planning a 5"4" combination to my tablesaw base/overarm collection (that is, if I break down and actually purchase/make an overarm guard).

They never planned a 4" connection...and I purchased the 2hp gorilla. On that note...I don't have any ducting up yet, and I'm already wishing I had broke down for the extra 300, and purchased the 3 hp unit....wish I could find a local buyer for my 2hp so I could revisit that decision:( ...but that's another thread....


Good luck, and if you have the opportunity, post a few pictures of your system when it's up and running.

Gary

[Michael Gabbay]

I had Oneida do my duct work design several years ago. THey asked me what my machines were configured for. For the TS they suggested uping the port to a 5" which I did. I will probably move the jointer and planer to a 5" as well.

I'd call them and see why they suggested 4". 5" should be used for most machines.

my 2cents....

[Allan Johanson]

Hi Chris,

FYI, if you run 6" right to a machine and then reduce to 4" you will still be fine velocity-wise. You will not run any sort of risk of clogging the ducts because the 3HP machine is so powerful you'll still probably end up flowing at least 700cfm through it.

Here's one of the tests I ran on my DJ-20 jointer with my Bill Pentz cyclone (roughly equivalent to the 3HP Oneida):

- I set up a duct run that ended with 12' of 4" flex hose to a 4" port on the jointer. It flowed 811 cfm.

- Then I swapped out the 4" flex hose with 10' of 6" flex hose and reduced at the machine from 6" to 4". It flowed 969 cfm.

FYI, replacing the 4" port with a 6" version upped the airflow again another 10% to over 1000cfm. That's where it is now. :cool:

[Your particular results will vary based on the duct run and the tools you have.]

Whether you want the increased airflow is a personal issue for you. But if you want more airflow at the tool then run 6" all the way to the machine. Don't use 4" drops unless you want multiple drops to each tool (like a TS with a cabinet and overhead dust pickup running at the same time).

Cheers,

Allan

[Chris Rosenberger]

Chris,
Here is a link to information on designing a dust collection system.
http://www.airhand.com/designing.asp

[Tom Jones III]

FWIW, I got the 2hp several months ago and I just went back and looked at the parts list they gave me with the duct plan.

* It does not have a listing for any 4" pipe. However some 4" flex hose is listed.
* The main run is 6" branching off to 5" runs to the blast gates. Then gate and hose the same size as the dust port on the machine.
* It contains orders for (4) 4" gates and (6) 5" gates.

I am not totally satisfied with the dust collection. I've got 4" ports on my PM 66 TS and it is the dustiest machine in the shop. If I stand behind the saw and rip a board or two my shirt and shorts are covered in dust. I brought 6" pipe all the way to the machine and then reduced down to 4" right before the machine.

Same ducting goes for my 13" planer as I did for my TS. The port on the planer is 4". Dust collection is a little better, but there are still a few chips on the floor.

[Bob Marino]

Chris,
Here is a link to information on designing a dust collection system.
http://www.airhand.com/designing.asp

Thanks foir the link!

Bob

[Jesse Cloud]

To be fair to Oneida (something I'm not always inclined to do), they configure the port for the size opening you tell them you have. If you report a 4 inch opening on your TS, then you get a 4 inch drop. I reported all the openings as they were and installed the duct work. For the most part it works well. The Dj20 jointer and the dewalt 12 inch planer are just about dust free. The unisaw captures everything from the bottom, but the top is still dusty. I will probably break down and work up some sort of overhead collector as well. <on that fantasy day sometime in the future when I have some spare time...> I don't see the need, for now, for enlarging the whole in the unisaw, but I haven't closed the book on that either. The dc is just about useless on the miter saw. I have tried various shapes of hoods, next try may be to tap the silly little hole in the back as other creekers have had success with that.
For the router table and the drill press, I have the little duct with the magnets that Lee Valley sells. You can easily move the gadget right to where the dust is generated and it works great. To my surprise, my router is virtually dust free now. I'm also thinking about adding a floor sweep for convenience. There is just no way that any dc is going to pick up everything, especially when I'm using my jigsaw, hand planes, etc.

Like a lot of things in woodworking, dc is a learning process for me. Its gonna take a few iterations to get it just right, but I'm optimistic that that day will come.

Good luck and don't hesitate to ask questions.

[Chris McKimson]

Thanks for the reply's guys. I should mention that I was always happy with the size of the main's, 8" to the first wye, 7" to the next wye then 6" to the rest of the drops. With that in mind, and your responses, I think I'll go with the way Oneida did the design. If I decide at some point in the future to upgrade a collection hood, it seems like I could just replace the drop if need be.

John, when I called Oneida to discuss this, air velocity is something they mentioned. They suggested with the 3HP I would get better collection than if I went with drops of 5" or 6". I guess I'll find out. :confused:

Gary, buying the 2HP and wishing I had bought a 3HP was exactly why I bought the 3HP. Hope it works out for you.

Jesse, I have a Biesemeyer overhead guard with the DC kit. That is one drop that Oneida went with a 6" drop splitting into a 4" drop for the overhead guard and a 5" drop for the table saw reducing to 4" right at the tool. This was one of the drops that didn't worry me. The Jet 8" jointer with a 4" drop or the Jet 6X89 edge sander with a 4" drop, they were more worrisome.

Thanks again,

Chris

[John Bush]

Hi Chris,
I,ve been happy with my system so far and the Ecogates will definitely earn their seemingly high cost. They are worth considering. JCB.

[Guy Boulianne]

Hi Chris.

I am no expert and I am in the process of evualing things before a purchase for a system in my small shop (11' x 19'). As others, I have read a lot on Bill Pentz'DC research page. If you look at his Static Calculator, in the cells A10 to A13 of the spread sheet, you have quite a good explanation of why he does recommand to keep the drops the same on every drop and close to the main and to upgrade the hoods and why some others offering a design service happen with different results.

Note: All this apply to a one blast gate open at one time, as said by Mr. Pentz.

Play with the calculator to see the difference in SP from one option to another and check on the Fan performance table, then play with the CFM required (cell. D46), assuming that's what you will have and see the calculated velocity in your main. That will tell you if you still have it ok to avoid clogging; the main reason to run 6" to every machines and to upgrade the ports.

The Gorilla 3 HP performance curve is impressive compared to the 2 HP but you need the speed in your main 8" main instead of in the the 7" with the 2 HP.

According tp the spreadsheet, with a 7" main, I will need to have 1000 CFM to keep the air at 3742 FPM in my 7" main, the 2 HP is able (according the performance table that is quite similar on Oneida-air's site as the Wood magazine test in 2003 on the 2 HP commercial unit) to draw that much air at about 5.25" SP in the ductwork. To have roughly the same airspeed in your 8" main, you need your cyclone drawing 1300 CFM, it can draw that with 6" SP.

Another point, upgrading a branch seems to be quite costly to me, especially going with DC metal ductwork. You would replace the Ys and/or reducer, some elbows, the gates and the flex hose.... all these components are the expensive ones.... I will personnally go with Mr Pentz's approach to keep it to 6" to the machines the first time I do the work, sould I build new ports right on or later it will work the first day with the same ducting, original ports or upgraded ports, only point, if I should operate with a smaller port on a machine, I should Ideally partially open another blast gate to give some more air to the main.

I am unable to attach an image of the planned layout for my shop but I should be able to build quite a clean system and keep the SP low, the key factor to run the 2 HP instead of the 3 HP. By the way, according to the numbers I have put my hands on, I should have the 1000 CFM (or close to) at my TS and roughly the same at the oter machines, tha does mean a lot more than the required minimum.

[Guy Boulianne]

THe image.... the BMP was just too big.... so here it is in JPEG

[Chris McKimson]

Hi Chris,
I,ve been happy with my system so far and the Ecogates will definitely earn their seemingly high cost. They are worth considering. JCB.
I'll have to think about that possibly later. Trying to keep cost down to only 2500.00 :eek: Plus, being generally lazy, first I'd have to think about whether it was more work to manually turn on the DC and open the gate, or do the install of the ecogates and just open the gate. :D

Chris