Is three phase really a benefit for our use ?

[Robert Hayward]

Are three phase motors an asset or liability for our small shops ? I know it is beneficial in a production shop, but how about our hobby shops ?

I just spent close to $400 powering up my new to me 3 phase 5hp jointer. The machine runs well and strong. I push the switch and it spins up. It would do that with a single phase motor though.

What did I gain by getting a 3 phase machine ? The jointer was what I was looking for and the price was right for me. I had anticipated that buying a used jointer in the size I wanted would entail 3 phase so I am not complaining. Just wondering why so many people consider 3 phase a plus.

BTW, Matt Matt was an unbelievable amount of help programming the new VFD from Jack Forsberg. I was totally new to VFD's and knew nothing about programming them. After close to two hours over several different phone calls with Matt on a Sunday afternoon I believe I could now program one out of the box unassisted. Matt's explanations are that easy to understand.

Bob

[Bill Dufour]

Three phase on a jointer or tablesaw is pretty much no benefit. rotary converters have no real advantage over single phase.
VFDs allow slow start and variable speed of three phase motors but you need one for each machine. A three phase motor should last a lifetime since it has no capacitors or switches to go bad.
Bill D

[Matt Day]

I partially disagree Bill.

On tablesaws, being able to motor brake is a nice feature. And no, I don’t mean stopping the blade in 1 second and no the arbor nut has never loosened. Spinning down in 3 seconds is nice though.

There are quite a few old arn jointers that are direct drive (DD). Converting to belt drive and a single phase motor doesn’t make much sense. So, keeping 3 phase in this case is almost a no brainer.

So what do you gain by keeping the machine 3 phase OP? A smooth running bombproof motor that will last a lifetime. Question - how old is the jointer? Did you replace bearings or at least inspect the motor? I ask because I do this on all my vintage motors - the amount of sawdust that’s usually packed in there is amazing, and sometimes you find things like lollipop sticks and bathroom notes in school machines.

[Robert Hayward]

Question - how old is the jointer? Did you replace bearings or at least inspect the motor? I ask because I do this on all my vintage motors - the amount of sawdust that’s usually packed in there is amazing, and sometimes you find things like lollipop sticks and bathroom notes in school machines.

The jointer I bought is only four years old and still a current production model. Oliver 4240 and did not even have any scratches on the paint. It also came with a Byrd head that the cutters had not been turned. Although the first three or four rows of cutters against the fence are showing their age. If the rest of the cutters were not in such good shape I would have turned all of them. I also got the original straight knife head and knives in the shipping box the Byrd head came in with one of the original bearings still on the shaft. This bearing is still smooth and tight enough I could put it on the machine.

I agree about the 3 phase/VFD braking ability. I have the jointer VFD set up for four seconds spin up and spin down. That would be nice on my table saw to not have to wait whatever my Powermatic takes to stop spinning so I can clear a thin drop next to the blade.

Bob

[Doug Hobkirk]

I'm curious about the money if you're willing to divulge. I think this is a 10" jointer that costs around $3200 + shipping + the helical head.

What were the steps and costs involved in converting to 3 phase?


Did you re-wire your panel (or sub-panel)?
Or is the 3 phase/VFD (Variable Frequency Device) a gizmo to avoid that? And is that the $400 cost?


Thank you. And congratulations on your acquisition - it would seem to be quite magnificent.

[David Kumm]

A lot depends on what you make. I tend towards larger stuff, 8' doors, heavy moldings, 12,4 stock or even heavier. Three phase is a no brainer because for the cost of vfds- 200-400 per machine, rpc-2000, or phase perfect 4000, you have access to industrial machinery. A guy here just posted his new Griggio slider- probably 14K new- that was like new for under 4K. My 20" SAC planer was 4K, my SCMI T130 sliding table shaper that had never been used was 4K. I've bought 40-50 used machines for a fraction of what new of lesser quality would cost. Last night I jointed some 15" wide oak for a friend that was so out of whack I needed a 1/8" cut to flatten it out in a reasonable time. The 5" thick stuff was then straightlined on a 9 hp saw. That kind of work is hard on the build of most single phase machines as they seldom are made to handle more than a 5 hp motor. Even the 7.5 hp single phase stuff is the same build with a larger motor stuffed in.

If you tend towards bigger projects, don't have the time to fiddle with multiple passes ( I've never liked doing finish cuts ) or just enjoy well made machines, three phase is a necessity to be efficient with your time. Dave

[Robert Hayward]

I'm curious about the money if you're willing to divulge. I think this is a 10" jointer that costs around $3200 + shipping + the helical head.

What were the steps and costs involved in converting to 3 phase?


Did you re-wire your panel (or sub-panel)?
Or is the 3 phase/VFD (Variable Frequency Device) a gizmo to avoid that? And is that the $400 cost?


Here is the story. I am a hobby and craft woodworker. Only jointer I had ever owned was a ~1960's Homecraft 4" model in spite of owning some really nice commercial grade other machines. About a year ago I started looking for a used 12" jointer with a $1500 max price. Passed up a couple because they were 3 phase went to look at one that was converted to single phase ( hack job ). Gave up a few months ago and ordered a Grizzley 8" straight knife model even though I was not completely happy with my decision because I really wanted one bigger.

While waiting for Grizzley the BO status went to late August maybe September. :mad: Started looking used again and a 1982 vintage Taiwan 12" single phase short bed one popped up for $600 all rusty and dirty but the owner said it worked fine. I thought this would be a fun project to rehab and told the owner I would be there Saturday to look at it. Then the Oliver popped up in Fort Lauderdale, 600 miles round trip. Too far. Next day at work kept thinking about the Byrd head and 84" of tables. Called the owner and felt comfortable the machine was almost like new. Told the owner I would take it, without even laying eyes and hands on it.

The money breakdown.
$1650 for the machine.
$160 gas to go after it.
$40 Home Depot trailer rental
$385 USD for the VFD
~$75 wiring (did not keep track of )
Two hours to convince the neighbor with rigging experience, lifting straps and a shop crane it would be a fun trip to see Fort Lauderdale. :D

That is close to my self imposed budget of $1500, isn't it ? This is probably one of the reasons I am divorced. :)

For the wiring rather than running a new circuit I put a cord and plug on the VFD and used the existing MIG welder outlet. Then I ran another cord and plug from the VFD to the jointer which already had a 20 amp four conductor plug in it when I bought it. I mounted the VFD up high on the wall out of the way so it would not get bumped, banged or otherwise. The VFD is hooked up with three conductor 10 gauge SO cord plugged into a 30 amp circuit outlet. The wire going to the jointer from the VFD is 12 gauge four conductor SO cord. I included plugs so I could unhook the jointer and move it out of the way when not needed. I will make a mobile base for it as soon as I figure out how to put swivel casters under a ~850 pound machine without raising the table height too much.

To answer your question 2, yes the VFD in this situation is a phase converter. That is single phase in and three phase out. The other things the VFD is capable of are simply added benefits for what I am using it for. Variable speed and timed spin up and spin down ( braking ).

[Mike Heidrick]

Robert, did you wire the vfd just to the jointer's power?! The start and stop buttons on the jointer need to be wired to the inputs on the vfd to control when to start and stop the jointer. You do not put a switch on the line output side of a vfd. You are risking blowing that vfd with a voided warranty to boot.

[Robert Hayward]

Robert, did you wire the vfd just to the jointer's power?! The start and stop buttons on the jointer need to be wired to the inputs on the vfd to control when to start and stop the jointer. You do not put a switch on the line output side of a vfd. You are risking blowing that vfd with a voided warranty to boot.

Yes, that was all done properly under Matt Matt's guidance via phone.

[Frederick Skelly]

Yes, that was all done properly under Matt Matt's guidance via phone.

Bob,
Who is 'Matt Matt'?
Thanks,
Fred

[Robert Hayward]

Bob,
Who is 'Matt Matt'?
Thanks,
Fred

A member of SMC Matt Mattingley. Other than him helping me program my new VFD via phone I do not know him.

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks Bob!

[Dan Friedrichs]

Robert, sounds like you got a great deal on a great machine. I bet you're quite happy that the Grizz was on backorder, now :)

One question, though: do you use the VFD's on/off buttons, or did you run a separate wire from the VFD to use the jointer's original buttons (and, if so, did you put a plug on that cord, too)?

[Robert Hayward]

Robert, sounds like you got a great deal on a great machine. I bet you're quite happy that the Grizz was on backorder, now :)

One question, though: do you use the VFD's on/off buttons, or did you run a separate wire from the VFD to use the jointer's original buttons (and, if so, did you put a plug on that cord, too)?

Yes I did run a four conductor 18 gauge separate wire so I could use the buttons on the jointer rather than the VFD keypad to start and stop the jointer. I used a four conductor cable even though I needed only three wires because Matt suggested a spare would not hurt anything. While not on the control wire cord yet I am going to add a four pin plug as soon as I find one that suits me. I have a length of 1" heat shrink tubing in the mail that should be here Monday. I will use short pieces of the heat shrink tubing to tie the control cable to the power cable and put the plug in the same place as the one on the power cable.

[Bill Dufour]

For control wiring a modular phone jack has 4 conductors or the bigger modem jack has 6or 8?
Bill D

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Three phase on a jointer or tablesaw is pretty much no benefit. rotary converters have no real advantage over single phase.
VFDs allow slow start and variable speed of three phase motors but you need one for each machine. A three phase motor should last a lifetime since it has no capacitors or switches to go bad.
Bill D


Bill, there are benefits on a saw and jointer, the braking is nice on both if you use a VFD (like Matt said). Another benefit of VFD three phase on a saw is the ability to change blade speed when changing sizes. VFD can also move between machines, I have one with a wired plug in and out that allows simple moving. Works for the drill press and the lathe.

As for three phase power into your building, that is a great benefit. As others have said, it opens up a whole new level of machinery availability without having to have the extra costs of VFD or converters. I have a welding/fab shop, three phase welders usually have much better duty cycles. Right now, there is a really expensive Miller 400 amp machine with 100% duty cycle available locally, for ridiculously cheap. The little plant it's in is just buying new machines, nothing wrong with it. Great to have access to that sort of thing if you need it.

[Phillip Gregory]

The amount of benefit of 3 phase equipment over single phase largely depends on the piece of equipment.

In general, 3 phase equipment tends to sell for less on the used market and to boot almost all of the larger/better equipment is 3 phase. You nearly always get a better piece of equipment for less on the used market if it's 3 phase as many people do not want to deal with phase conversion. All of my used equipment is 3 phase for those reasons.

If you are deciding between otherwise similar pieces of equipment (such as buying a new single-phase vs. 3 phase piece of equipment), the benefits of 3 phase equipment largely lie in if variable speed control and/or braking using a VFD would be beneficial. Drill presses and lathes greatly benefit from variable speeds, and bandsaws and anything direct drive without a mechanical brake greatly benefits as the VFD can brake the tool very much faster than it spins down by itself. Belt driven machinery designed to run at a single speed such as a jointer, planer, or tablesaw don't benefit much from being 3 phase with everything else being equal as they don't take long to stop. 3 phase motors are simpler than single-phase motors but a single-phase motor is simpler than a 3 phase motor and a phase converter of some fashion. A capacitor-start, capacitor-run single phase motor also has similar power curves as a typical design B 3 phase motor. The 3 phase motor isn't any more efficient once you also include the phase conversion inefficiency into the mix.

[Mike Heidrick]

If you have to ask, it probably won't for you. Most of what 3ph I run and plan to run does not come in 1ph.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Bob, no it's not beneficial.

That said, sometimes a used machine is such a bargain, or a machine is only available in 3 phase, so we wind up with one.

In most cases a VFD will be the least costly solution to the problem on a one off basis.

In Canada, a majority of 3 phase equipment is 600 volts, that's not allowed to be distributed in a residential setting so you have to add a VFD and a transformer to the machine. In that case I usually suggest changing to a single phase motor or a 208 volt 3 phase motor.......Regards, Rod.

[Jeff Heath]

In an industrial setting, with 3 phase supplied service, 3 phase is, by far, the best option.

That's not what this thread is about.

For woodworking machinery in a home shop setting, supplied by either a vfd or a RPC, the benefit of 3 phase motors is not so much the 3 phase itself, but the machine it's powering. Industrial machines were built of a quality that is much better than the typical hobby shop machines being purchased new today. No comparison. 3 phase is very nice to have for a lathe, as controlling it with a VFD for speed control is a very nice feature to have. Many of the new ww lathes like Oneway have this feature built in, but you pay thousands of dollars for those new. A vintage industrial lathe, like Oliver, Wadkin, etc.... can be purchased for a fraction of the money, wired to a VFD for speed control for a couple hundred bucks, and you will have a very nice lathe that is, in many instances, a few thousand pounds for stability and vibration dampening. My Oliver patternmakers lathe does NOT walk across the floor when I turn it on.

Not relevant to many users here, but where 3 phase also shines over single phase is with high precision bearings and machinery that requires them. If you're running an overarm/pin router, or a big shaper with expensive Abec 7 or 9 bearings inside, the 3 phase motor supplying the power is much smoother, for a better finish, than a single phase motor with a start capacitor. Where you can really tell the difference is with metalworking machinery, like a precision metal lathe or mill, where the quality of finish is measurable vs. the same machine powered by a single phase motor. The rougher running single phase motor can be seen in lack of quality in the finish of the metal.

Overall, I personally seek out 3 phase machinery, and replace single phase motors on all my machines with 3 phase. Drill presses are a fine example, where the 3 phase motor is just smoother. A drill press, 3 phase motor, with a VFD to control it is a very nice tool to have in your arsenal if you're doing a lot of work with it.

[jack forsberg]

the benefit to any machine with the VFD is motor control. some say no use on a table saw but i say what if you want to add a sanding disk? in some cases putting the blade in backwards and changing rotation let you make some cuts from the back of the saw. sure these are not conventional cut and one needs to know what there doing but if you are modifying your machines then you most likely have the chops. here i am running a drill press at 10,000 RPM as an over head pin router

https://www.instagram.com/p/BjqC8g9AKq8/



switch gear is a big reason to have a VFD and that is why so many with 3 phase line power in the shop use them . Motor control . They are also cleaner than 3 phase line power and are often mandated by the utility to reduce surge at start up on hard start machines . lastly 3 phase is not limited in HP single phase is .

you can run these with your I phone now and it be the control board for thing like the dust collator . So if you want machines with touch screen then the VDF is ideal

387249



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-WHT6HwlUY

switch gear on my Wadkin RS pattern makers Lathe

https://www.instagram.com/p/BjSDyIdAtud/

[Chris Parks]

VFD's will offer a simpler alternative when they are networked and can be controlled by a application on either a tablet or a PC. I can't see why a tablet application has not been used, it just makes sense to me.

[Patrick Irish]

I put a VFD on my 5hp 3ph planer. Was hesitant cuz I bought the cheap huyuang brand. Almost went with a rpcbut space and too small a panel.

Love the VFD. I just need to wire in a toggle on off switch soon. It’s wired where I use the start stop on it and just unplug it when done using the planer. It shares my dryer outlet.

[Robert Hayward]

After reading all the comments I think 3 phase really does have a benefit over single phase. Motor control.

While my new jointer is the first machine I have owned that required 3 phase to power it up I have two other machines that have factory built in VFD's. A Powermatic 3520b and a Nova Voyager drill press. I would not want either one of these machines if they did not have reversing and variable speed. Motor control is key to using both of these woodworking machines.

Bob

[Keith Mombourquette]

I'm new to these parts, but have been reading the forum for a long time. One of the reasons that I finally joined was so that I could add my 2 cents worth to Robert's post. I just finished converting a very old Union Graduate lathe from 1HP single phase to 2 HP 3 phase with a VFD in order to get control over the motor. I also bought my VFD from Jack Forsberg, and had the same telephone help getting set up and running from Matt. I have to say that this was a delightful experience overall. My lathe is like a new machine with infinite speed control. I will probably never change a pulley again.

Keith

[Robert Hayward]

My lathe is like a new machine with infinite speed control. I will probably never change a pulley again.
Keith

Welcome to the forum. I am with you on the pulley changing. I could not imagine going back to a lathe or a drill press that did not have a knob to dial in the speed I want.

[Matt Mattingley]

Thanks guys. I’m always willing to help out anybody. There is so much confusion in the market of RPCs, VFD‘s, static phase converter’s , phase perfect.... and what is a perfect solution for certain situations. I don’t mind walking anyone or helping anyone through the best solution needed. Most often for small shops VFD‘s are a great solution. They have gentle start and breaking that work absolutely brilliant with lathes and drill presses. For complicated shops with multiple voltage requirements above 300 V a RPC or PP are beneficial. A PP is restricted to 30 hp. A PP is a shop digitally runned complete source. A RPC is A complete source as well which is almost bulletproof but now has its drawbacks. If a person is requiring more than three phase converter’s shops the large RPC, PP or multiple VFD‘s bar the solution. Anyone in this situation needs to weigh out the pros and cons. I am here to only give advice to suit your personal situation... and I don’t mind giving you a call.

If you want to build your own RPC using scrap or recycled parts. I don’t even mind helping you here!

The fact that I require three phase in my shop is because my Lathe Harrison , table saw PK , air compressor 5 hp three-phase, JTA, Do-All, Start-rite, Bridgeport, cylindrical grinder.... and a few other machines woodworking and metal. Pick my brain any day the week.