Sash by hand tools

[Mark Rainey]

Planning on making a China closet/hutch with hand tools. Bought a matched pair sash plane & coping plane from Tod Herrli about 17 years ago, but life got in the way, and never used it. 386778386778386779386780 Figuring out how to use it - sharpened it & tried it out on pine - makes 2 cuts at the same time - works like a dream. Any other hand sash Neanderthals out there?

[Tom M King]

If I have a few to make, I'll use molding planes. Check out the windows page on my website, and you may find some useful information in the pictures.

[Mark Rainey]

OK. Thanks Tom

[Zach Dillinger]

Yup, I've made many window sash and sash furniture doors by hand. Most of my early production went to people restoring old barns and homes. I haven't done one in a while, might be time to get the planes out and do one just for the fun of it.

[steven c newman]

386891
Prefer this...

[Darrell LaRue]

I've made only a few sash frames. Not too ugly actually. These were done with individual planes, sash ovolo and sash fillister. I've since acquired one of those twin-iron sash planes like you used, but I have not sharpened it, so it is a dust collector at the moment.

I also picked up a foot powered mortiser, which were used for sash and door work back in the day. That one gets more use, because mortises are kinda ubiquitous.

The one thing I do not have is a sash coping plane. I've used incannel scribing gouges instead.

Darrell

[Tom M King]

For ones made by hand tools, I've used a jeweler's saw more times than not for the cope.

[Mark Rainey]

Yup, I've made many window sash and sash furniture doors by hand. Most of my early production went to people restoring old barns and homes. I haven't done one in a while, might be time to get the planes out and do one just for the fun of it.Zach, while surfing the internet I saw some of your hand sash work. Impressive!

[Mark Rainey]

A Stanley 45 Steve?

[Mark Rainey]

For ones made by hand tools, I've used a jeweler's saw more times than not for the cope.Good tip Tom.

[steven c newman]

Yep.
387028
Needed a frame to set a panel into, for the top of a dresser..
387029
Had to widen the rebate part..
387030
like this.
387031

[Tom M King]

For shaping an ogee, or ovolo profile on muntins, and stiles and rails, you have to be really selective of the pieces of wood you use, especially with a combination plane. I have never attempted one with only a combination plane, but have called on hollows and rounds when the grain goes the wrong way for even mostly using a sash plane.

I bought one set of sash planes, with a coping plane, but it's never fit anything I needed to copy, so I've never used it, other than just playing around with it. It doesn't matter how hard the wood is, or how obstinate the grain is for a jewelers saw, but I expect it would for a coping plane, but never having made a whole window with one, I really can't say.

Mark, can you post a pic of your coping plane? The only one I've ever had in my hands is the one I bought off the auction site.

http://historic-house-restoration.com/images/windows3_001.JPG

[Jim Koepke]

Roy Underhill has a good video on this with the sash planes, the coping plane and a foot powered mortiser:

https://www.pbs.org/video/woodwrights-shop-double-casement-window/

jtk

[Tom M King]

How long does it take for someone to make a complete sash by hand? If I have one or two to make, on the old houses I work on, I'll make them by hand. The reason is simply cost. If I have a number to make, like a house I had to make 38 for, the $1600 for a set of custom cutters is a no-brainer. For just one, or two, it costs more to buy the cutters, than the double time in labor.

Right now, I have 4 to make. The trouble is that they're large ones, being 9-lites with 12x14 inch panes. As typical for what I do, matching the old ones, they will be made from Heart Pine, rather than a much easier to work with wood like White Pine, or Cypress.

For smaller sash, I figure I can make one a day with hand tools. We're close to the break even point, if I can make one of these big ones per day, but I'm afraid to say that I can, including swapping out pieces of wood in the middle of the process due to grain that has a mind of its own with the old Heart Pine. I don't know that it would be that much more time than making one with 8x10 pane size, but it seems like there is the potential for taking significantly more time, simply because the sash are so much different in overall size. The number of joints are the same, but there is the Heart Pine factor. Muntins are 5/8" wide.

Another factor is that the ogee is a strange one, and I would have to modify old molding planes to get one to fit the originals I would be copying.

The good thing about making them mostly with power tools means that I can make a couple of extra ones, to have on hand when one in use needs to be worked on, for maybe just an additional 300 in labor each, so the owners of the houses have always decided that was well worth the little extra cost.

[Mark Rainey]

For shaping an ogee, or ovolo profile on muntins, and stiles and rails, you have to be really selective of the pieces of wood you use, especially with a combination plane. I have never attempted one with only a combination plane, but have called on hollows and rounds when the grain goes the wrong way for even mostly using a sash plane.

I bought one set of sash planes, with a coping plane, but it's never fit anything I needed to copy, so I've never used it, other than just playing around with it. It doesn't matter how hard the wood is, or how obstinate the grain is for a jewelers saw, but I expect it would for a coping plane, but never having made a whole window with one, I really can't say.

Mark, can you post a pic of your coping plane? The only one I've ever had in my hands is the one I bought off the auction site.

http://historic-house-restoration.com/images/windows3_001.JPG
Tom, I will post a picture of the coping plane I purchased from Tod Herrli when I get back home in 4 days. Thanks again for your advice.

[Mark Rainey]

Roy Underhill has a good video on this with the sash planes, the coping plane and a foot powered mortiser:

https://www.pbs.org/video/woodwrights-shop-double-casement-window/

jtkThanks for the link Jim, it was a fun episode to watch.

[Mark Rainey]

Tom, here are pics of Tod Herrli’s coping plane387247

[lowell holmes]

I have Lee Valley's small plow planes, both of them. They are a delight to use.

[steven c newman]

Wonder IF those could even use the two sash cutters that the #45 had? One was a mirror image of the other, and you could do both sides, by just swapping out the cutters..

IF one didn't like the profile Stanley made, they could always regrind them to what they did like...

[Mark Rainey]

Darrell, an incannel gouge would be useful. I am going to look around for one. It might be time to tune up your stick & rabbet plane387378

[Mark Rainey]

Stick & rabbet plane then coping plane. Nice fit, no fret saw no gouge387491387492387493387493

[Tom M King]

Very good! Now only 19 more copes to make for a 9-lite.

[Mark Rainey]

Very good! Now only 19 more copes to make for a 9-lite.
Thanks Tom. I will get moving!!