Saw Stop safety saw

[Bob Michaels]

Is anyone using the Saw Stop safety saw? I have a PM 66, I bought 8 months ago, and I think it's pretty darn good. However, realizing that the table saw is probably the most accident prone tool in a WW shop, I am considering moving to the Saw Stop. Comments from anyone will be appreciated. FWIW, the PM 66 cost about 2200 and the Saw Stop will probably cost about 3800 with extra cartridges, Biesmeyer type fence, etc. If it really works, my feeling is that the bucks are worth it. Just attended a Gary Rogowski seminar, and like he even says, "odds are that sooner or later the table saw is going to bite you". This won't happen to everyone but I don't want to be one of the statistics that has 4 fingers left on one of my hands. Rogowski says he avoids using the table saw anytime he can by opting for the band saw usually.

Any comments would be appreciated.

[Dino Makropoulos]

Just attended a Gary Rogowski seminar, and like he even says, "odds are that sooner or later the table saw is going to bite you". This won't happen to everyone but I don't want to be one of the statistics that has 4 fingers left on one of my hands. Rogowski says he avoids using the table saw anytime he can by opting for the band saw usually.

Any comments would be appreciated.


The saw stop is a nice machine and you can't go wrong
by keeping all of your digits.

[Roy Wall]

Bob,

First of all, welcome to SMC!!

There are quite a few "creekers" that have Sawstops and they helped me very much in my decision making. I'm sure you'll here from them soon!!!

I took delivery of my Sawstop in July. The setup took awhile.....and I would honestly say I was a little irritated at the procedure - believing everything would be "perfect" out of the box....but it took a little tweaking here and there.....it was just hot in the garage so I was cranky!:cool:

This aside, I'm happy with the saw! The riving knife is excellent as well as the knife/spreader/blade guard combo. These are two important safety features on the saw- so that you don't get to the third:eek: !! The riving knife virtually eliminates kickback.

It is a very smooth running machine. The miter slots are parallel, their Beis-type fence is accurate. The ext. table is pretty solid.

Dust collection is good due to the dedicated shroud underneath and around the blade. It runs thru a 4" port in the back where I connect a 5" flex hose to my Cyclone. I wish it were a 5" dia. hose inside the cabinet as the CFM would be greater - but it does work well. I added a Felder blade guard that has a DC port so now dust is minimal.

[Don Frambach]

I have a SawStop. It replaced my 1.5 hp Delta contractors saw. The SawStop is ever so much better. Mine was right on out of the box. It's solid and easily passes the penny test. I thought about a PowerMatic but went for the SawStop hoping that I'd never use its safety feature but would be very grateful if I ever did. I was also very much sold on the built in riving knife. I think that the riving knife by itself would have been enough for me to go for the SawStop instead of the PowerMatic. I suspect that except for the riving knife and the blade stopping mechanism of the SawStop that the saws are otherwise essentially identical. However, since I've never had the pleasure of using a PowerMatic 66, I can't say for sure.

[Dev Emch]

Welcome Aboard Bob...

First let me introduce myself. My name is Dev, aka Dr. Martin. I rebuild and restore super high end machines like Martins, Hofmanns, Wynigs, Olivers, etc. which I then use in my cabinet and tool buinsess. My own table saw is a Martin that tips the scale at over 2500 pounds. I also own an oliver 88-DM with a sliding top which tips the scale at about the same weight.

First let me say that the new saw stop seems to be a very well recieved machine and the quality seems to be there. But its not for everyone. I have been using table saws since about 1975 and I will never purchase a saw stop saw myself. That is me. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. For me, super precision and ultra accuracy in the machine are worth more than the gimmicks saw stop markets. Before I get any boos from the peanut gallery, all I have to say this. Care to pit a saw stop saw against a martin? Didnt think so.:cool:

I have used your PM 66 before and its a great saw for that size class. It is a bit light weight for my tastes however.

As to the comments by Mr. Rogowski. I think Mr. Rogowski should be ashamed of himself for being so loose with his lips. The reason I can type faster than a secretary is that I have developed software for years but also because I type with all TEN digits. The reason they are still attached is that I follow the rules and respect the machine. This topic is not open to debate. There are rules of the road for using table saws that have been developed through 100 plus years of use. You need to find some books and take some courses on using the table saw. This applies if your using a PM 66 or a Saw Stop Saw. Dont allow yourself to be lulled into a sense of false security because you may have a saw stop saw. You are and will always be your first line of defense. Start acting like it.

The saw stop saw is a tiny saw. Consider what it feels like to drive a saw with a 16 or 18 inch blade and a 1.25 inch to 1.5 inch arbor? But when you find out that the blade retracts into the belly of the machine and that you can rip a board while at the same time keeping a nickel on edge, then you know why we like these machines. They were designed for a 100 years and with a new set of bearings will embark on a second lifetime.

Should you sell your PM 66 and buy a saw stop saw? That is up to you. I personally would not at this time. But if your not comfortable with a table saw and not fully dialed into the rules of using one, then maybe you should buy one. Its great first saw for someone just starting out in woodworking. But is very expensive for what you get and I consider it a bit dated in comparison to some of the european saws. See Pual's C. posts on his euro slider.

[Dino Makropoulos]

Welcome Aboard Bob...



I think Mr. Rogowski should be ashamed of himself for being so loose with his lips.

Dev.
Mr Rogowski should be given a price for speaking out about
the table saw reality.
And the reality is ...
.."There are rules of the road for using table saws that have been developed through 100 plus years of use..."
that you need more than a life time of luck to master the monster.


I forget to ask the guy next to me if he was using a Sears or a Martin cutting few of his fingers.
but I knew it. It wasn't a saw stop.




This topic is not open to debate.
OK.:rolleyes:

Don't allow yourself to be lulled into a sense of false security because you may have a saw stop saw. You are and will always be your first line of defense. Start acting like it.

Just use your brain.
Imagine yourself cutting with your hands few inches from the blade and you're about to sneeze.:confused:

And think about the answer from Dev..... if the saw stop was invented by Martin or Hoffman.:rolleyes:

Good luck.

[Ian Barley]

Bob

Welcome to the Creek. I hope that you get lots of information from here and that at least some of it is useful to you in the wonderful world of woodworking.

I don't have a Sawstop. They are not (yet) available in the UK. If they were and I was buying a new TS it would quite possibly be a Sawstop. If they fitted the technology to a saw with a "euro" slider it would definitely be a Sawstop.

Everybody has their own opinions on which machines are best and they all merit listening to. But in the end the assessment has to be made against what you want top get out of it. Dev has a tendency to see the world in an aircraft carrier scale because he is a full blown all weather ocean going woodworker. Many other people are "taking a nice turn round the lake on a sunny day" woodworkers and for them a good quality dinghy is the better choice. To push this rather weak analogy, the Sawstop has positive bouyancy built in. You are much much less likely to drown in it but you can still get wet and look a chump.

Now - what Mr Rogowski says in his class. He has a very valid point. The tablesaw is a machine fraught with risk which needs to be treated with great respect. I spend about 15 hours in an average week pushing wood through mine and try hard to make myself think of each cut as a unique event which has a unique capacity to do me harm. Dev is right that there are reasonably straightforward rules which make it a much safer experience. The same can be said of driving an automobile but at least some of us believe that the introduction of safety features like seat belts, airbags and ABS braking has been a good thing. That is where I see the technology on the Sawstop fitting. Seat belts don't make me a lazy or feckless driver, they just make me a safer occupant of a moving mass of metal.

Now the $64K question - should you change? If the tablesaw makes you nervous and the Sawstop will make you less nervous you probably should. Just the simple fact of being less nervous will make you safer. If you are not particularly nervous but just feel that it is better to be "safer" then you might be just as well to spend a little time and money getting used to the "rules of the road" which will massively reduce the risks and give you a better sense of control of this important piece of equipment.

[Rob Russell]

Bob,

Since you're asking for opinions, I'll give you mine also. I wouldn't replace the PM66 with a SawStop. If you chose to buy a SawStop, that's fine.

I don't agree with Mr. Rogonowski's statement that "odds are sooner or later the saw will bite you". I will say that - if you're not careful with every cut - you increase the odds that you will get hurt.

At $4K, you're into the price range where you can get an entry level european sliding table saw (probably need to add another grand or so, realistically talking about a starting point of $5K). That's where you really can look at saving digits because your fingers never need to get close to the blade.

Rob

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Bob.....Welcome to the Creek! You have asked the question that will and has in the past gotten very many comments! You can probably do a search on saw stop and find some of the past threads where this subject was beaten to death and then the bones were beaten to shards! Good luck with your decision!

[Per Swenson]

Bob,

Welcome.

Sawstop, yes sir. When we get around to building the new shop

and moving, we will buy another. We make our living in the woodworking

business, which amounts to daily use of this saw. (by three people)

It would be silly for us not to use this technology.

I have written some initial thoughts here, http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=19698&highlight=sawstop

If you have any further questions feel free to e-mail.

Per

[Dino Makropoulos]

Bob,



I don't agree with Mr. Rogonowski's statement that "odds are sooner or later the saw will bite you". I will say that - if you're not careful with every cut - you increase the odds that you will get hurt.

Rob.
I think mr R.statement and yours is the same.
Keeping in mind that the machine don't think and we can't be perfect forever. Even machines malfunction.

At $4K, you're into the price range where you can get an entry level european sliding table saw (probably need to add another grand or so, realistically talking about a starting point of $5K). That's where you really can look at saving digits because your fingers never need to get close to the blade.

The ESFTS offers many safety features and versatility.
I use one for years and I love it.
But you can't do all your cuts with the slider.

I think the Manufactures of the ESFTS should adapt the saw-stop technology and get done with it.
Or have a small saw stop for the dangerous cuts.



Rob

Can you help me here and tell me how you do your rip cuts with your slider?
Thanks Rob.

YCF Dino

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Bob......do an advanced search using saw stop as the words and you'll find hours of reading about saw stop saws.....and hundreds of opinions and view points.

My advice.....if you feel that replacing the PM with a saw stop will make you feel safer and enjoy wood working more......if you can handle the financials of same.....BY ALL MEANS DO IT!

If you do an advanced search using saw stop as the seach words you'll see that several members here have that saw and most if not all were extremely happy with it.

It's important that You feel comfortable working with a saw.....If you feel you need a sawstop........GO FOR IT!

Good luck with your decision!

PS..........I don't own a sawstop...have never seen one.....don't intend on owning one.....

[Chris Barton]

Hi Bob,

I agree with some of the other posters, if a Saw Stop will help you work wood with greater comfort and peace of mind, then it is the right saw for you. It was recently reviewed by a couple of the woodworking magazines and they said it was a decent saw, with an overpriced fence and that on at least one occasion during evaluations, the stop mechanism misfired while using a dado attachment.

As for Dev's comments; I simply don't know what to think. I know this is politically incorrect to challange someone but, Dev seems to be all talk. He knows everything about every tool ever made and owns every great machine on earth (but you never see them in use...). He is cabinet maker to the stars so, he can't show you any of the work he's ever done. On the other hand, he does seem very knowledgable about some of the older equipment. I certainly can't quote you line and verse thet statistics about every machine ever made but, Dev can...

I have always considered the PM66 a truely great table saw and many aspire to own one. I don't think the saw Stop table saw will be a better saw than your PM66 however, it may be safer.

[Phil Winn]

and love it! It is very well made, and has some nice safety features.....but it costs more $$$$. I find the customer care department at SawStop is first-class as well....
Phil

[Burt Waddell]

There has to be a safer way than the table saw. The other day I was doing some kitchen remodeling on site and had to do a couple risky cuts. I actually had to stand back and relax a few minutes to get enough nerve to make the cuts. Next time my Easy smart guide will be on the truck and I can keep my hands away from the blade.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

I love the idea of saw stop, but what do I do when i want to cut some hot dogs? As their video on the website shows, this is impossible.
I'll stick with my Powermatic

http://www.sawstop.com/media/Table%20Saw%20-%20Quicktime%20low.mov

[John Bailey]

There has to be a safer way than the table saw. The other day I was doing some kitchen remodeling on site and had to do a couple risky cuts. I actually had to stand back and relax a few minutes to get enough nerve to make the cuts. Next time my Easy smart guide will be on the truck and I can keep my hands away from the blade.
I don't have a table saw and don't plan to get one. What does it mean when you have "to do a couple risky cuts."

John

[CPeter James]

I have a PM 66 and I have an overarm blade guard and a splitter. I am paranoid about keeping the guard in place. Probably for the same reason that I am paranoid about setting my alarm system when I leave my house. I also have the Exactor sliding table. I feel that this helps in controlling cuts and stabilizing large workpieces. It may not be an European saw, but it is pretty nice. I wonder if all the people who are so in favor of the Saw Stop ( and I wanted one, but the PM 66 came along before the Saw Stops saw production) even use the guards that come with the machinery. How many times do we see people using saws with NO blade protection of any kind, NO finger board or push stick? I am amazed at certain TV shows that NEVER use a blade guard, but always start of by saying "Always read and understand............". I am not perfect in this area, no one is, but I do try. If you want to change, you won't have any problem selling your PM for most of what you paid.

CPeter

[Burt Waddell]

John,

Rather than "hi jack" this thread, I started a new thread -Risky Cuts.

[Dev Emch]

Chris...

Have you seen some of my machine posts? I got egged on to post some of these by others and then no comments. But I do have one of the last three Maka mortisers imported into the USA. I would have bought it new but they were no longer available. New, they sold for $22,000 dollars. I lucked out and got a repo machine from a leasing company (2001 model: STV-161) for a steal. Hardly used. But in looking back at dumping close to $18,000 into my Hofmann TFS-1200 and the aproximate cost of $24,000 for the new martin, I guess I must be doing something right? By the way, the hofmann is also posted on this forum. As I told you in the reply to your PM on this topic, I just began my very first project that I will be able to post photos on. I actually requested this opportunity in the contract. This will be a double whammy for you guys. Not only do I get to photograph myself but I also get to photograph my Oliver 125-D tennoner with the top coping head finally reattached after a couple of years. I bought it with a cracked upper coping head casting and it broke about a week after I got it home. So yes, there is no bloody way I could afford these machines if I were cloning the work sold by Home Depot and Lowes. I have worked hard to establish a nitche for myself and working for peanuts reproducing commodity items from a borg is not what I do.

[Dev Emch]

John....

A risky cut is one in which you allow your fingers and hands to come too close to the blade.

The first one I learned about went like this. A guy in VO-TECH was cutting a dado in a board with a dado stack. The board was cupped and he did not adjust the height correctly (i.e. did not push the board flat on the top when he adjusted the height). He then ran the dado cut rather quickly with full down force. He felt something. He looked at his right hand and all 5 digits were attached. On looking at the other side, four digits fell over still hanging on the skin and meat hinges.

One of the rules I talk about is very simple. NEVER ALLOW YOUR FINGERS TO COME WITHIN 6 INCHES OF THE BLADE. This often requires the use of push sticks, push blocks and other devices. Also, sliding tables go a long way to reducing the overall risk of using a table saw. I would highly reccomend getting one. It makes the saw easier to use with less stress *AND* it improves the quality of your work. What more do you want.

[Mike Cutler]

I guess I'll wade in to the waters here.

I like the Sawstop idea on a number of levels. It guards against complacency. I don't believe that there is a woodworker alive whom can honestly say that they never made a cut while tired of distracted, especially at the end of the day, or project. Sorry folks, it's just human nature to be goal oriented, and want to get the project done.
I wish that I could state that my hands had never come within 6" of the blade while cutting, but it would be a lie. I try to make jigs for all the dicey cuts, to help with accuracy and safety, but sometimes.... ya' just get lazy, or in a hurry, and complacency kicks in.

I've been operating tablesaws on and off since 1971. I still have all of my fingers, but I understand what Gary Rogowski was stating.While I haven't been "bitten" by the blade, I have had the off cast waste fracture, and come back up into my face twice, that was scary. So I reckon I would have to honestly place myself in the "had an incident category".

When it is time to change out my current tablesaw, I will look at the Sawstop as an option, but due to some rather heated threads, and articulate posts, I am really leaning towards a European Style Sliding tablesaw. I really like the idea of not have your hands, or body parts anywhere near the blade to begin with.

Bottom line, I wouldn't sell the PM to get a Sawstop. Use the saw in it's intended safe manner, but if you really have concerns or worries that you will have an accident due to the lack of the blade brake, or it just makes you feel more comfortable having one, then go for the Sawstop.
You need to be comfortable, confident and have respect for any machine. If one of these components is missing, it's a recipe for an accident.

My .02fwiw

[Bob Michaels]

Thanks again to all that replied. I agree that with or without SawStop safety features it makes good sense to think before making any cut on a table saw (or any machine for that matter). I feel comfortable in my use of the PM66, but I am open minded to technology improvements that may increase safety. Love that 66, and I'll probably stay married to her for the time being, but I'll also keep watch on the SawStop.

[Craig Colvin]

I have 2 Saw Stops in my shop and love them. I had a PM66 and the Saw Stop is much better designed saw. Even if it didn't have the safety features I would pick the Saw Stop over the PM66.

Speaking about it just being a matter of time before you get bit I'm beginning to believe that. I have 1-2 people a week come into my shop who are missing a digit or more. Almost all of them had been woodworking for 20+ years when the accident occured. Some say they were tired, some say it was a momentary lapse, some say they were doing what they always did when something unforseen happened. All say it happened so fast they didn't realize what happened. I'm happy to have the Saw Stops.