Small SCM slider repairs SI 16 SF

[Warren Lake]

Ive done a few repairs this is next. Handle as it should be then folds to the machine into the recessed area. I havent used Helicoils before but maybe the are a direction. Had a tool and die maker that could have fixed this in his sleep but no longer has his shop. Did go to a local CNC guy for something a while back had it done twice and didnt go back as it was still not right.

386729

area it threads into is stripped

386730

Threads on the handle end are very rounded not sure if a die would crisp them up enough that it can be reused like to if I can

386731

Also missing the nut which would allow you to lock it in place and direct where it pivots, likely done by a past owner to get more thread bite

386732

[Warren Lake]

As it arrived the bearings on the slider were toast. Overall it still slid nicely, I can say that after having coming from two excalibur first generation sliders on a General cabinet saw.


How it came saw not cleaned and maintained so even a build up you could feel on the bearing surfaces.

386733

cleaned up the bearings surfaces and bit more, showing bearing number. Assume they are cheap bearings never mind someone was hammering on this one.

386734

Cleaned up and sliding nicer now but I can still feel one or two bearings working

386736

Are there upgrades for these bearings and is it worth it? They are not a high RPM bearing so that aspect insnt critical but if there is something better than it makes sense to do that.

[Joe Jensen]

It's just me, but now that you've gone to the trouble of removing the slider I would for sure put new bearings in. When I buy bearings there are almost always a wide range of options for a particular size. Chinese, Taiwan, Japan, US, Italian, etc. I replaced the bearings on a 12" SCMI jointer and the price range was something like $25-120 depending on country of manufacture and brand.

[Warren Lake]

I already put the slider back on to see the difference and there was. Its super simple to put it on and off .

[Jim Becker]

I'd surly replace the bearings for like-new performance. If you can get one or more loose, it should be easy to directly measure them with calipers to get replacements that match. For the tilt-wheel handle, hopefully, you can clean up the threads (or re-bore and tap) to get that fixed up. You don't want the handle sloppy...it's hard enough to use as it is!

BTW, I combined both threads...keeping everything in one thread makes for a nice story. :)

[Warren Lake]

Bearings will be replaced, the question is will better bearings make a difference as its not a shaper or a jointer but slow moving rolling table. No problem replacing them with any level just like to know from someone with experience if there is a difference for this application. My understanding of bearings is not to measure them but work from part numbers and cross reference. Ive done tapered interference fit roller bearing rebuild stuff in the past and all that was used was a part number to go from SKF or Timken or whatever.

You cant rebore and tap its stripped. It needs a helicoil or some other type of repair, and I dont know if a die can bring the handle threads back to life be nice if that was the case and dont have to wait for a part to arrive. I have the same handle on my shaper not sure why you find them hard to use.

[David Kumm]

This is an application that standard sealed bearings are good. Do not use C3 clearance . For instance an SKF sealed bearing with JEM in the designation is a C3 clearance. c2 or CN are what I would use but nothing special or precision. Natchi quest or SKF explorer are slightly better bearings but C2 or CN is more important than brand. Dave

[Warren Lake]

thanks David thats the kind of info I was looking for. When I did the tapered bearings I talked to people that made tools for setting them up, I asked my friend that works on race cars and hist story was different. Timken invited me out sat with me and explained it saying my friend was correct.

Next figure out the handle so anyone who has solved this before thoughts are welcome.

[Mike Kreinhop]

The handle looks like it has enough material for a Helicoil insert, if you can find the correct size. The threads on the pivot pin look like they are beyond saving. Chasing them with a die might move some of the metal, but I doubt it will be enough to last. However, the part looks easy enough for a machine shop to fabricate from bar stock.

[David Kumm]

When you start rehabbing old machines you need two friends. One who knows how to rewire motors, and another who is a machinist. It is amazing what they can make if they have something to copy. Dave

[Warren Lake]

havent had to rewire a motor so far and some are 60 years old, though now I dod remember having to replace wiring in one as SCM had a period they wired with self dissolving wiring, sort of mission Impossible style. Lucky I discovered that when I did as it was soon to be short time.

Had an amazing tool and die maker friend trained in Germany several simple machines he make anything and super accurate. I had a spacer made by a CNC shop with tons of machinery wrong the first time had them do it over still off, clear message there. My friend lost his shop saddly he had a square head and its a round world. Otherwise it would be done tomorrow.

If a die wont do it I wonder about getting a smaller die and so it becomes smaller a bit then the helicoil matches if there is enough thickness for a helicoil. Ive likely change threads on things in the past to do what I want. Not sure if it could be welded in then redrilled and tapped or if they make a helicoil that goes over a screw thread to make it larger in that case the base could be tapped larger but never seen such a beast

[David Kumm]

The motor on my SCM SI16 is one of the few I've had to rewind. 9 hp windings in a 100 frame motor. I would check the motor bearings. The SCM motors run hotter and bearings do wear. I rehabbed my saw and bought a second for parts. I don't think I have what you need but will look. Dave386758

[Jim Becker]

I have the same handle on my shaper not sure why you find them hard to use.

That should have been more "tongue in cheek", but I failed to convey that. But cranking my S315WS for tilt is not something I enjoy simply because just as soon as I get going at a nice clip, my hand moves enough for the handle to break position and partially fold. No big deal...it's an operator-error thing. :)

[Chris Parks]

I would plug the stripped out hole and tap a new thread into the plug rather than do a helicoil repair. Helicoils are good where there is not a lot of movement but not in a situation like this. Drill the hole round to suit a piece of bar and push the bar in using loctite to make sure it does not move. You could make it more secure by getting a custom piece of rod made with a shoulder on it and push it into the wheel from the back.

[Warren Lake]

thanks Jim I often read or type too quickly then off to something else.

Lots of guys talk about power up and down stuff. Old school other than the power table on the stroke sander. The one I had before was brutal and made me mental any time I had to use it. The third one has a power table and its a joy, in the case of up and down all of my machines shaper and planers the SCM stuff are crank handles and fine, the older General stuff is more annoying. I dont mind handles when its a well made machine its not a bother at all, not much effort and smooth.

[Peter Kelly]

Bearings & Belts
(863) 337-4984
http://www.usabearingsandbelts.com

Call and ask what the options are for 608-2Z bearings. They should be able to provide SKF ones.

[David Kumm]

386776386777This is a little newer and lacks the chrome strip but I believe it may fit. Bore is 22mm and diameter matches the one on my saw that looks like yours. If you want, PM me. If it doesn't fit you are only out the postage. Dave

[Warren Lake]

thanks Chris for another idea. Wish the friend still had a shop.

David do you have an SCM graveyard of parts? Thanks thats a kind offer. Give me a bit one guy is checking on bearings and going to see what they have at work in the next few days. One thing yours looks like aluminum? is that correct. I havent taken this off yet but you can see in the threaded area or where the threads were mine is rusty so likely its steel. There was not rust on the handle threads though.

[Darcy Warner]

95% of older Scmi I have owned, had to have motors rewound or replaced. Stupid metric frame Fiemec motors.
Every hand wheel had a stripped out handle hole. You can easily re tap for 1/2" 13 and buy a new folding handle from McMaster Carr.

Add- stupid plastic knobs and handles are always broken.
They are great saws, but all the cheap parts are always broken. I have a pile of parts laying around as well.

[Warren Lake]

guess ive been luckier than you and Martin. think there are five SCM machines here and not one motor touched. Two motors in two of them so thats seven motors. I knew the original owners and bought two of them from them, they saw lots of use and likely 60 years old. I think the ones that are 60 years old are made better than the newer ones likely the saw is about 20 years old and not as heavy as the older machines. thanks on the suggestion on the handle one more thought and a good one. Id already sent the email to a guy in town that works on race cars, he came to mind remembered a friend landed his plane there and they showed me the shop. So will see his perspective as well but that sounds like the cleanest solution so far. thanks Darcy and all, its appreciated.

[Martin Wasner]

thanks David thats the kind of info I was looking for. When I did the tapered bearings I talked to people that made tools for setting them up, I asked my friend that works on race cars and hist story was different. Timken invited me out sat with me and explained it saying my friend was correct.

Next figure out the handle so anyone who has solved this before thoughts are welcome.

Buy a new handle. I can't remember what they are called, but McMaster has them.

Fixing the hole won't be real pleasant. I'd try a helicoil first. If that didn't work I'd drill it out larger and have someone make a threaded inset for the handle to thread into.


Or. Have a machinist make you another part of the handle that is threaded, but make it longer so you can put a nut on both sides of the wheel

[Brian Holcombe]

I have a felder machine bought used and a few of the plastic handles were broken. The zinc ones cost all of about $2 more at McMaster, not sure why they could not simply provide better ones OEM.

Anywho, McMaster is a great resource for all of these odds and ends. I’d do as Darcy suggested and buy the next size up in the handle and cut larger threads. Easier than putting a helicoil in.

Having worked in a machine shop I have an adversion to helicoils, locking threaded inserts are preferred.

[Martin Wasner]

The four people all woodshop owners should befriend:

The machinist
The electrician
The welder/fabricator
The electrical engineer

[David Kumm]

in addition to the small frame, some metric motors, SCM included are 50 hz and just run at 60 hz for the US market. That is why the odd 9 hp size. At 50 hz the motors put out 7.5 hp. I think it is a contributing factor to their failure rate. The good thing about buying SCM used is that they sold a billion machines so parts can be had. I have a 10 hp Felder shaper with a 90 frame motor so SCM isn't alone. Dave

[Jim Becker]

thanks Jim I often read or type too quickly then off to something else.

Lots of guys talk about power up and down stuff. Old school other than the power table on the stroke sander. The one I had before was brutal and made me mental any time I had to use it. The third one has a power table and its a joy, in the case of up and down all of my machines shaper and planers the SCM stuff are crank handles and fine, the older General stuff is more annoying. I dont mind handles when its a well made machine its not a bother at all, not much effort and smooth.


Yea, there's nothing wrong with hand-cranking for this...and it's cost effective. It just takes a lot of revolutions to tilt my blade to 45º and invariably, I mash my hand a few times when the handle decides to "not stick out straight" because I'm flopping around like a clown. :) :D

[Darcy Warner]

in addition to the small frame, some metric motors, SCM included are 50 hz and just run at 60 hz for the US market. That is why the odd 9 hp size. At 50 hz the motors put out 7.5 hp. I think it is a contributing factor to their failure rate. The good thing about buying SCM used is that they sold a billion machines so parts can be had. I have a 10 hp Felder shaper with a 90 frame motor so SCM isn't alone. Dave

Plus they are wound for like 4 voltages.

My motor shop said the windings are small an insulation is poor.

Yes, I have 60s and 70s SCM stuff still going strong with original motors, but they are way different than the fiemec ones.

[Warren Lake]

and for some of you your wives :)

Im lucky to have a lady friend who buys me shop stuff. Last time she went to a tool and die maker friend behind my back and bought a 72" precision ground straight edge made from a shear blade. He was selling off his shop stuff and she knew I had borrowed it in the past. If i had known would have suggested the original owner Bridgeport with the Mititoyou digital read out.

Have a few welders so have that taken care of. Darcy ill check what motors i have, likely some of what you mentioned arent great. one of the machines was rewired originally from 575 to 220 single phase. He had a roto they should have just told him to get a transformer but guess they wanted the work.

[Martin Wasner]

Plus they are wound for like 4 voltages.

My electrician was pretty sure he was going to let the smoke out of one of my scm shapers switchingg it over to 480. He didn't, but he wasn't real confident.

WHY can't the Italians put a sticker on the inside of the doghouse cover like the rest of the developed world?!

[Darcy Warner]

My electrician was pretty sure he was going to let the smoke out of one of my scm shapers switchingg it over to 480. He didn't, but he wasn't real confident.

WHY can't the Italians put a sticker on the inside of the doghouse cover like the rest of the developed world?!

Yeah, I don't get some of the stuff they do.

Right now I have a stuck spindle in a 1968 SCM T160 shaper. May be one of the best shapers they ever built and they claim it doesn't exist. Power lift, power tilt and a oil circulation pump for the bearings. The oil pump is what they said never existed. Think they only made this for one year or so.

[Warren Lake]

Is it Beige, I missed a real nice one of those Italian Shop totally maintained had a clip board on the side with service records. I hand spun the spindle never felt one turn so smooth effortless and under the nut was double any spindle ive ever seen.

[Darcy Warner]

Is it Beige, I missed a real nice one of those Italian Shop totally maintained had a clip board on the side with service records. I hand spun the spindle never felt one turn so smooth effortless and under the nut was double any spindle ive ever seen.

No, it's the L'invincible line, green. I think this one has 9" under the nut.

[Warren Lake]

they did make the 160 more than one year or just that one model you have with the oil and power lift is the one year thing, this one was manual lift and tilt. Big deep machine and heavy. beige and agree at least that much under the nut. Turned so smooth felt like there wasnt a belt on it.

[Darcy Warner]

they did make the 160 more than one year or just that one model you have with the oil and power lift is the one year thing, this one was manual lift and tilt. Big deep machine and heavy. beige and agree at least that much under the nut. Turned so smooth felt like there wasnt a belt on it.

It's the oil circulation for the bearings. Scm claims they never made one. Only seen 3, maybe 4.

[Warren Lake]

I guess its like area 51

[Larry Edgerton]

Fixing the hole won't be real pleasant. I'd try a helicoil first. If that didn't work I'd drill it out larger and have someone make a threaded inset for the handle to thread into.


Or. Have a machinist make you another part of the handle that is threaded, but make it longer so you can put a nut on both sides of the wheel

This is how I fixed mine when it did the same. No problems.

[Warren Lake]

I tried to measure the handle thread size last night and im getting M10 x 1.5. Bit hard to tell with the threads being so rounded but think thats accurate anyone verify that measure.

Then whats the best way to remove the bearings from the shaft? Im thinking its going to put pressure on the bearing in a non positive way but then they are not being reused anyway but even going back on if a little tool was used not much of a shoulder for that.

[Peter Kelly]

A bearing puller tool would be simplest. NAPA dealers often have loaners of these, just requires a temp charge on your credit card. Usually just need to return within 24hrs and they release the hold.

https://media.rs-online.com/t_large/R1253896-01.jpg

[Brian Holcombe]

Those aren't for sealed bearings, it'll destroy them. I believe you need a bearing extractor made for blind assemblies (rather than through assemblies) which grips the inside of the bearing and applies pressure to that shaft support.

[Peter Kelly]

Those 27 year old USSR-made bearings are pretty well trashed, I wouldn't worry too much about saving them for anything. A new set of sealed SKF or FAG 608 bearings would likely cost under $60.

I'd say it's a very worthwhile upgrade if you've already got the sliding table off the saw.

[Warren Lake]

once again the bearings are being replaced. THey can come off any different way. I dont see any easy way to get the bearing off the shaft as it is now that would not possibly do damage but it doestn matter anyway. Almost something like a pickle fork that slips in and is super thin might do it. I could grind a putty knife likely to do that and might do it for a lark to see if it works. Going on they will need a tool to knock them on a piece of shaft drilled or bored out to just contact the center portion of the bearing and nothing more. Found a bearing supplier not too far in an area I will be in. Aasked him for Timken and its next day. Ill photo the bearing later how they are on this short shaft, its got an offset so as you turn the allen screw center they move from side to side for adjustment of how they sit on the bar.

[Brian Holcombe]

Can you remove the shaft from the block, then just knock the shaft out of the assembly.

I am careful to avoid destructive disassembly, so to avoid damaging the adjoining parts.

[Warren Lake]

David, I checked all the Italian motors and every plate was labelled 60 HZ, since you mentioned they are 50HZ I wanted to check that.

[Peter Kelly]

Going on they will need a tool to knock them on a piece of shaft drilled or bored out to just contact the center portion of the bearing and nothing more.Bearings should be heated for installation on a shaft not hammered on, ever. If you wrap one in a very wet paper towel and microwave for about 1:30 it should increase it's diameter by 0.002" at 200º. This will allow it to slip on effortlessly.

[Warren Lake]

came apart super easy cut an allen key short and just rested the bearing on a vice since its not reused.

Also looked at making a pickle fork from a thick putty knife and its easy to do just grind it to the shaft size it will likely take it apart very easily and that could be done with good bearings take them apart without damage. Bearing would stop moving by the thickness of the knife so likely need a second one either way I wont have a need to do that.

As far as assembly decided to put it back together and see how that would go,. Found a socket that was absolutely perfect 9/32 of one brand like someone had machined it for this, more amazing was the same allen fit into a hole down the center of the socket so it could be used to align it so you would not slip off the inner race.

Hammering is a big word, tapping the inner race with the socket that is only touching the inner race I doubt has any affect on the bearing I have a press but this is small stuff and id think it might be easy to get it cocked, The shaft itself is not even ground square or cut square so it wont even sit square. I dont see heating either there is grease in there and not sure what temps affect that, its not needed. I learned from a mechanic a while back when you can put stuff under load then light tapping will do wonders as its loaded. This isnt an application for that but when I have used that in the past its excellent ive seen people pound stuff to take it apart and on the same application I modified a tool so it could load the parts and then just light tapping it moved easily, then tighten up the load again Light tap and you just move it along slow bit at a time.

Nice how the socket was perfect for this and even the allen key fitting a hole already in the center of the socket? think I should go out and buy a few lottery tickets.

[Warren Lake]

site issues as usual and cant see my post and wanted to add this in, log off I see my post then cant put the photo in when I log on my post is gone.

The socket fit the inner race like it had been machined for it. The allen key fit the part as its the correct allen key for that think 4mm, the allen key fit snug to a hole down the center of the socket. I cut the allen about an inch and half long enough that it didnt extend out the end of the deep socket. It kept it all perfectly aligned and the socket fits tight and snug and just moved along the allen lining up perfect with the inner race. seated as well or better than before I took it apart



386984

[Larry Edgerton]

Cool I just did the bearings on mine. I bored a hole for the eccentric shaft in a hunk of aluminum as a holder and pressed them on with an arbor press.

[peter gagliardi]

Martin used a similar bearing system for the slider on their T17 saws. It was a very simple deal to swap them out as I recall. Simple , inexpensive sealed bearings I got from Accurate Bearing as I recall. Martin used 8 or 12 of them as I recall.
Probably around $8.00 each.
My saw came with a couple of the bearings with cracked outer races?!
Adjusting the table was another matter entirely.

[Warren Lake]

thanks, I have a press but the end of the shaft this presses onto is not cut square which is a bit bizarre so it would sit caulked. I think ill file them all square not sure if they are all the same but realized I have both wood and metal vises and few heavy metal vises sure they would do this very easily. I can see small burrs and allen screw damage the usual so will clean all of that stuff up put bevels on things.

Someone had hammered on one bearing already and bent the metal cover. Peter your saw didnt come new with bearings damaged did it?

All the bearings work few have a bit of play in them and you can feel the bearings working but even with that slides very nciely. Im thinking set up will be some time then the previous owner had loosed the top before i got there to pick it up so likely that is disturbed as well and will be the starting point for set up since the main fence is not adjustable the top will have to be adjusted in relation to the blade. Arbor is dirty as well and will have to clean it and check it.

Do I want bearings with Rubber shields or metal? sales guy says they sell both and he has seen dust in both of them.

[Martin Wasner]

I'd guess rubber seals? Metal is more of a shield than a seal, I think?

[Darcy Warner]

I'd guess rubber seals? Metal is more of a shield than a seal, I think?

Rubber seals have more drag than shielded. Rubber is probably the better choice here though.

[David Kumm]

Contact seals are what you want for a rolling table. Dave

[Warren Lake]

What are contact seals? The rubber ones?

Put some time in cleaning up the collars around the blade washers and nut, rust gone now. Dial on the inside only blade collar showed it to be out .00075 so just under .001. I used a shaper washer to be able to tighten up only using the inside collar.

I put a blade in and measured in a few places, older blade dont know its history. One thing I dont get is putting the dial centered on the blade lowest point then dropping the blade I see a difference of .007. Figured fine the blade is not exactly square to the top so I loosened off the tilt stop and went below zero. I stlil see that change, sort of like the whole carriage as you raise or lower the blade moves in one direction .007. Not sure if it even matters but i would have thought when the blade is true 90 degrees there should be little to no change raising and lowering off the side of the blade.

See how the scoring blade works, Height and side to side so I guess your scoring blade has to be exactly the same thickness as your saw blade? likely missing a washer but wasnt focused on it.

[Larry Edgerton]

Warren, I adjust mine slightly more that the kerf of the main blade. Not much, but a little more.

[peter gagliardi]

Yes, the rubber seals would be better. I also put a light smear of grease on the outside of the rubber on both sides. The idea being to catch the dust before it migrates in, but I think it would take decades to make any real difference from dust buildup inside the seals.

[David Kumm]

Almost all seals are contact which helps to keep out the crud but also reduces the speed rating of the bearing. Irrelevant in this application. Shields are almost always non contact so shielded and open bearings can run faster. There are bearings with non contact seals but they are usually special order and rare. Dave

[Warren Lake]

John what do you mean slightly more? choices for adjustment on this saw are side to side and up and down for the scoring motor. I think one washer is missing and the nut is fairly rusty last owner didnt use it but the motor was running for sure tested when I bought it. In the past ive never needed one but wouild like it running its not a priority at the moment. Bearings need to be next. Still confused raising the blade up and down and how i could not get it to stay zero at the bottom and top of its travel. Ill check another saw today to see what that one does. ILl check with my best level and make sure its totally level.

The arbour measured being out less than .001 in fact .00075. Do i want to live with that or is it sensible to reduce that, what do you aim for in the inner blade collar.

Found these bearings from Timken. Timken did me well with some time to explain rebuilding some car parts. David you stated not C3 for clearance but rather C2 or CN the clearance listed on these is C0 is that okay?



387107





387108

[David Kumm]

If the Timken are more expensive than the SKF, buy the SKF. You don't need anything better for your application. Runout is fine if you are measuring it on the inner flange near the edge.
Dave

[Warren Lake]

Timken are just over 10.00 per and they had in house stock stuff for under 2.00 I ordered the Timken because I appreciated years back two engineers sat down with some car parts and confirmed info from a friend and gave me more info. Not like I will change their bottom line here but still appreciate the service I got from them in the past.

[David Kumm]

Timken was the original tapered roller bearing. They also own Fafnir who I'm guessing is the manufacturer of the deep groove bearings you are buying. Fafnir makes good bearings. Dave

[Warren Lake]

so some progress and more to shortly. Handle is back repaired and into the wiring. electrician showed up and figured stuff out. Here is first of all. Some previous owner jumped the master shut off. Not good as shut off one phase would still run through. White wire was 22 inches long. Not only not ideal silly length of wire. Has any one taken these apart and its the most likely failure arcing? Ive taken magnetic starters apart in the past and done fine cleaning up years of use later though one or two where a little spring shot accross the room and landed in sawdust not so much so.

One start button would not work so he took the scoring start and put it on the main blade. Ive since taken the start button apart and it works fine now after many attempts.


Top left main shut off is the offender

387718


Back of panel jumpered from 3 to 4 with ubber long wire.

387720

[Warren Lake]

Here are some photos of the start button. I didnt realize it came apart, inexperience not enough lighting and ancient eyes. Surprised how well it all comes apart and easily. A question for you electron guys can a little blob on the contact be enough that it doesnt make contact? its shiney figured current would still pass.

Insde the panel, shortened the white, Problem not solved just got rid of the monty python piece of wire

387723


Inside the panel the right button is scoring saw start not working the left is the main motor. Changed at sorting out time to at least get the main motor running

387724


start switch removed, simple twist the part on the front panel after loosing the two slotted screws

387725


Before I realized I could take this apart I cut two slots on the left with a die grinder thinking I could get paper in to clean the contacts. I did with double sided auto body paper but it still didnt work. Later with some light and glasses could see it comes apart

387726


This broke down to about 10 little pieces but the main thing you could get at the contacts to file them. Im not sure if I have a point file maybe just found the finest one I could

387727

Here are two photos of the blobs I was talking about. Removed and filed the four contact surfaces. LIkely my file was too coarse.

387728 387729


exceded my limit oh well

[Warren Lake]

and here the moving part is sort of flopping around, one more problem, thought about putting epoxy in to keep it in place so it always aligned perfectly there is still the one main spring in there

387731


Ended up bending that part and tried it 20 times worked perfectly. Power back on and it worked in all the testing. Im wasnt apposed to buying a new part but told not available and likely take me time to find a used one,. Its running so can take my time now to find some used parts

387732

[David Kumm]

you can find those on ebay. Measure the diameter of the hole. Some are NO and some are NC ( normally closed ) and some ( most ) can be wired either way. Lots of choices in start stop buttons. Dave

[Warren Lake]

cant even see what I posted, have to log off to read your post Dave., Electrician said anthing lots available. Wasnt into changing it if I could repair it start button works its done id be waiting for whatever ordered and im just as well to keep it original.

Do you know on the main shut off if arcing is the main cause of failure on those, if it is then im up for taking that apart and finding the right file. Ill find back up at another time but have it working now

thanks w

[Warren Lake]

here is the handle repair, I liked the idea here best of the insert with a shoulder on the back then rethread the handle if possible. Likely that didnt work but he did rethread to 3/8", I mentioned poeple dont like Tapcons, he said some people dont use them correctly then I told hiim there is not much meat here only 1/4" he said yeah he could put a nut on the back. He works on airplanes at some point I have to let people do their thing.

Hes put a washer on the one side, a tapcon inside and a nut on the back. Likely be strong and hold time will tell.


Washer on this side

387738

nut on the back side

387739

slider bearings next, got timkens with Rubber dust shields as suggested and will grease the outside as Peter suggested. Input from everyone appreciated.

[Warren Lake]

also on the HP if you convert KW to HP you need your voltage. For Amps say in this case 9 amp motor how do you figure HP, Ive always figured its close to 1 Hp per amp at 600 volts, close on most of my machines that have both listed on the plated.

I looked it up other day and could not find voltage entering into it. Converting from KW it was something like 8.9 HP. Then someone had said here they are fairly tail HP. I realize there is some efficiency factor it was on one forumala at 65 percent other stuff I read said real world on these its 90 percent.

[David Kumm]

.75 kw = 1 hp approx at any voltage. the amps change with the voltage. Most SCM motors are 5.5 kw @ 50 hz or 7.5 hp @ 50hz. When the motor is run at 60hz the kw goes to 6.6 and the hp to 9. At 240v the motors draw FLA of about 20-22. Dave

[Warren Lake]

thanks Dave, plate says 60 HZ, 6.6 KW and 9 amps.

more questions to follow three speeds 35 years two saws with one speed, guess it relates to blade size, splitter geez never had one of those have to take it off see it moves for 14" blade and likely 16" or maybe not. Have blades will need a rip blade for it but have a good assortment of others in two sizes likely 12 and 14"

[Darcy Warner]

6.6kw is just at 9hp. 9amps is probably at 440v.

[Warren Lake]

9 amps 600 volts

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[Darcy Warner]

Not sure where to source 1000v switch gear. Lol.

I take it you are in canada?

[Warren Lake]

I think so, is that bad :)

[Warren Lake]

Ive done some measures on the saw, fence and top etc Ill post some of that have to do some sorting. Next thing ill look at is the riving knife. Having never used one here are some thoughts and questions. I want to know I understand it and get the best out of it it that it can do. Past experiences cabinet saw stuff not favorable.

Based on Jacks recent post the riving knife is supposed to be less than the blade kerf and thicker than the blade plate. I measured a bunch of teeth and they were different. 14" blade thicker than the 12" etc, My plate measures were .0750 Plate on a 12" blade then the 14" blade plate was .1010. I guess the reasoning for the riving knife being thicker than the blade plate is if the wood tension releases it will press on the knife and not on the blade. Never had that luxury.

I saw a photo where someone made a riving knife from an old saw blade. Seemed to make sense if the numbers work, I guess harder to machine it.

In the recent stuff posted one thing not mentioned was the position of where the riving knife sits. I can see its adjustable and this one was shimmed out. Unfortunately the table top was moved before I picked the machine up so that has to be set up. Quick glance at it and one aspect seemed odd so will take a look at that.

Riving knife on my saw is aluminum think it was .075 thick. The slots they cut in the riving knife are too large in relation to the dowel pines it fits onto. What I dont like is the knife then can be tilted back or forward or between as the slots are so large. Are your riving knives machined fairly tight so there is little play which equals little forward to back movement before you tighten it down.

Stated riving knife spacing I think ive mostly seen .6 - .8 mm. Seems pretty tight however, is there a seperate riving knife for each size saw blade? Im thinking that is a yes or do you just use a larger one for say a 12 and 14 inch blade.

Says the saw can take up to 16" but they recommend 14". Looks like it would still take a 16 with the riving knife, not this one but one made correctly. Is there such a thing as a template pattern for these riving knives?

thanks

w

[David Kumm]

I can make an outline of the knife on my SI 16. I think there is enough adjustment that it fits with both a 14 and 26" blade. When you run a slider with a scoring blade you want to standardize your blades as much as possible. I have Lee and Sharkguard make knives for me in a couple of thicknesses. It will take me a few days to get over to the saw as it is in my other building but email me and I will follow up. I use 16" blades but 14" and 16" tend to be fairly close in plate and kerf. A 12" will usually be thinner. I prefer the heavy plate larger blades so I don't use a 12" often. Dave

PS I just looked at the Sharkguard site and Lee has SCMI knives and a drawing you can look at. He supplies three thicknesses in stock. Take a look.

[Warren Lake]

Thanks David

did contact him and found out there are more thicknesses than listed. I asked him if some people set them up to put pressure on the material to hold it tight to the fence and he said some people do. Seems silly if its not set up that way. A simple finishing nail nailed into a wood insert and the head cut off will preload the material and keep pressure against the fence. That makes ripping really long material easier as you walk it into the blade. I think my question about the riving knife is that you should have ones for each size of blade. Likely would have got more responses if this was a separate post. I have more questions as I set this up and will think if its better to make separate posts and Jim can combine it later.

[David Kumm]

I set the knife to center on the plate. It is seldom you rip against the fence on a long slider, more often on a short but if the saw is well tuned and has little runout, there is no need to push the stock against the fence with the knife. Dave

[Warren Lake]

Site doesnt work right for me so cant see your post Dave.

Id say that a riving knife should hold the material tight to the fence otherwise my little finishing nail already can out perform it. If I rip long stock or want to be critical on some final rip stuff id put a finishing nail in, its not the fence its me walking the material and the finishing nail gave it consistent pressure tight to the fence. If they are not set up that way either people are missing the point or they are too fiddly to shim up to get then positioned that way and im wondering if this is going to have shades of the original blade guard.

Answer came back that ideally the riving knife is the same size as the blade. So three blade sizes then different plate thicknesses? think I would stick with 14" blades like you do. I do have one 16" blade then 14 and mostly 12.

[David Kumm]

Sometimes I have to log out to see all the posts. Due to the scoring blade, I run a combo blade 90% of the time ( Forrest WW2 in this case- not my favorite but the tooth width is the max my scoring blade will handle). The rip blade has a very similar thickness plate and I never seem to need a better crosscut blade. I would not vary the plate thickness or blade size much. Simplfies life to not have to swap blades, knives, and adjust scoring often. Get a good blade and use the saw before deciding what types of blades you need. I've found that a good blade, FS Tool, Leitz, Royce Ayr, Nap Gladu, or forrest, and a machine with ground flanges to reduce runout give such a good cut you don't need a million blades unless cutting special materials. Dave

[Warren Lake]

yeah logged on non of your posts are here the last one is my Timken bearing post.

So appreciate your answering and so far I can see a riving knife is not going to be as good as I thought. I realized after I posted I want it to be to the right to keep pressure after all id hope that my lowly finishing nail cant do a thing a riving knife cant but I think it can. If the riving knife is to the right and the riving knife should be thicker than the blade plate thickness there would be an issue offsetting it to the right. Id say then I want a riving knife that is not necessarily thicker than the blade plate but that i can put to the right side of the kerf so it can at least put pressure on the material to the fence. Its solid closes in ill deal with it I always have with less HP.

I have lots of blades mostly Melmine and mostly Royce, Ultima and a few other models. ILl likely try Kanafusa stuff for the scoring and a rip, I do have one combo as well in 12 likely Ulitma.

What did you say about machining something? I cant see your post so not sure what you said are you talking about the blade collars that go on each side of the blade? I did check them before and think one was out about .0015 ill have to look that up that was the inside right side of the blade one that goes on the key way.

[Warren Lake]

next I checked the fence to see if it was straight. It has this sort of plastic laminate stuff on it.


390261

Lead in edge was out .022, outfeed end was out .027 so whatever this material is it was worn.

390262

Damage in the blade area

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Took it off with lacquer thinner ill go with the aluminum so here is whatever that material is sure some of you have used it ive not seen it before

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Fence has been cut into as well. I measured the fence and its pretty good overall it is more worn in the blade area then the added damage done from some previous owner.

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Good it was square to the table unlike the one on the cabinet saws


390266

[Warren Lake]

fence measures. Ill live with the fence damage for now, Not sure if its a thing they can machine out. Overall the fence is fairly true about .002 out but up to .004 and .005 in the damaged area.


390267

this is the underside of the fence and I see no adjustment for Parrallel like on the cabinet saw fences. It was cleaned up and deburred after this photo.

390268

I think as the starting set up point since the saw has no mitre gauge that this fence has to be parrallel to the blade or if you supscribe to the set out thing think I read on Altendorf that the heal of the fenc should be out about .002 ill check that.

[Warren Lake]

table top measures. can see a bit worn in the heavier wear areas that is the blade area middle. Fine for now. Likely can be hand scraped which ive never done, dont know what it is but a tool and die maker mentioned doing it to the ways on his Bridgeport. I normally flatten things with a hard edge with stick on auto body paper. Ill leave this for now.

Table inserts show lack of logic. There is not lip on the main blade insert so if you wanted to use set screws to adjust be pretty hard to drill and thread as too close to the edge, then there is not much material in the table top as well. Compare that the scrolling saw which is less critical because of how it works they make a good size lip in the saw then have the insert threaded with allen screws. even my cabinet saws have that. Most of the stuff on this saw so far is much better than the cabinet saws guess Iill still find the odd thing that is going backwards.

Has anyone modified this in some fashion. The insert does not sit close to flush and I doubt its straight.

some table top measures
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main blade insert

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scrolling saw insert with lip in the table stop and insert has adjusting screws to flush it to the top, someone had their thinking cap on

390282

[Warren Lake]

back to the riving knife. This one home made you can see the slot for the dowels on the mounting block is oversize so it gives a fair bit of front to back tilt, also it wasnt made wide enough to extend past the mounting block so you could never position it properly according to stated 6-8 mm clearance you would run the blade into the block first and looks like someone has.


390289