Ripcut or Crosscut Carass or Tenon Saw

[Brian Eaton]

I’m planning to build my first serious workbench this summer and am working on a list of things I still need (probably more likely want) to purchase before I get started. I’m planning on building a Paul Sellers workbench - after a lot of reading it seems like it will best suit my current abilities without really compromising on functionality.

I have a dozuki, ryoba, and Lowes 20” panel saw (blasphemy, I know, but it sure can cut!).

Having seen a Paul Sellers video I am going to give the Spears and Jackson saw he recommends for beginners a go, along with a saw file to refine the teeth of the saw for a rip cut. The Lowes special crosscuts REALLY well, rips so-so, so I figure for the time being I think the Spears & Jackson panel saw will serve my needs once refiled for rip cutting. As a side note, I am going to a pretty big antique tool event in my area in June so if I find any old saws I may go with one of those instead - this is just the plan assuming I can’t find anything.

The real question I have is this - the main joinery on the Sellers bench is some mortises and tenons for the legs. I could make do with my Japanese saws but I don’t feel like I have as much control with them (as much as I’ve practiced) as I do even with my Lowes special. I know that tenons require cross and rip cuts but I wonder, if I could only purchase one, which one might see more use - I know the first answer a lot of people might give is - “it depends on what kinds of things you plan on making” but at this point I’m really open to anything and everything post workbench build, and I like trying new techniques. My thought is a carcass saw because as much as I’m wanting to try many different things, I don’t see myself doing a bunch of big projects - a tool chest (maybe Dutch style) might be the biggest thing in my near future.

Which one do you use the most? At this point my brain is just on overload trying to make decisions and plan.

[Osvaldo Cristo]

The first hand saw I have seem people buy is a cross cut as usually it is the most frequent saw activity as well they will also rip (better than a rip saw making crosscut, mainly at harder wood).

I am not a Neander but 30 years ago I purchased a good rip saw and a tenon saw I used at several occasions, mainly for carpentry.

Good luck at your choice.

All the best.

[Simon MacGowen]

The first hand saw I have seem people buy is a cross cut as usually it is the most frequent saw activity as well they will also rip (better than a rip saw making crosscut, mainly at harder wood).

.

Cross-cut saw is very slow when ripping. I would recommend getting a rip IF you could only have one for both types of cuts.

Simon

[chris carter]

I have both a 15tpi crosscut carcass and a 15tpi rip carcass. Despite the fact that the rip doubles as my dovetail saw, I still use the carcass way more.

Crosscutting with a rip works fine, but will leave a less flattering surface. Ripping with a carcass works fine, but is twice as slow. I would not make the decision based upon this one single bench project. You can use either one fine for one project. It’s over the long term of many projects that having more specific saws for specific tasks becomes more important because you get tired of having to “make do”.

[lowell holmes]

I file the tooth line off of old beater saws, tape a paper tooth pattern to the saw, mark the teeth with a single file stroke, and then file new teeth.
I have five saw sets, so setting the teeth is not an issue.
One saw came to me broken off, so I made a panel saw out of it and made a new handle.
Actually, I have made new handles for several of the saws. I have saw nuts that I saved from old saws to use when needed.
Curly maple makes striking looking handles.

[David Eisenhauer]

I believe I have read somewhere that the old, well-trained and experienced types of older vintage tend to use their tenon (rip filed) saws for mostly everything. Perhaps cross cut filed saws may be easier to start cuts with may enhance their popularity for beginners, but tend to I use my rip saw more than my cross cutter for typical furniture joinery work. Creating a knife wall for a proposed cross cut tends to negate some of the rip-filed saw's roughness when cross cutting in my experience.

[steven c newman]

Happen to have a decent rip saw I was using yesterday...and today it was a crosscut D-112...



Use the backsaw No. 4 as a joinery saw ( 14" long, filed rip, 11ppi) and another two No. 4s in my Mitre Boxes...that is basically it in my shop.

[Joe A Faulkner]

Brian, if memory serves correctly, Paul Sellers often "chops" his tenon cheeks, so if you are going to follow his teaching, then perhaps your best joinery saw would be filed cross-cut. If you have a shoulder plane and a plane that you can use on a shooting board, then you might be content to do your cross cutting with a saw that is filed rip. If not, then for fine joinery, I'd think you would want a cross cut filed saw for cutting shoulders.

Given that you like learning new techniques, I think in your case it doesn't matter which you buy next because my guess is that it won't be long before you own one of each. I say this to encourage you to not over think this. What Spears and Jackson saw is Sellers recommending and what is the price point of that saw? Where are these sourced in the U.S.?

[Brandon Speaks]

Paul Sellers advocates filing all of the smaller tooth backsaws rip, I dont take his word as gospel though. That being said I do have a rip carcas but not an x-cut, it x-cuts well enough but I am probably either going to add an x-cut, or try what bad axe advocates and add a touch of fleam to my rip saw for a "hybrid" filing. I am leaning toward the hybrid approach, not so much to save $ but so that I can use just one saw for both, seems quite convenient.

[chris carter]

I think in your case it doesn't matter which you buy next because my guess is that it won't be long before you own one of each. I say this to encourage you to not over think this.
This.

I agonized between the two and settled on the Xcut (Veritas). It worked close enough for both xcut and rip applications and in the end a few months later I acquired a used rip anyway. So ultimately, I sweated over nothing.

[Prashun Patel]

I would get a cross cut carcass saw. You can use your Ryoba to rip if you really need efficiency for a long rip.

I find my tenon saw a little big for most of my joinery.

[Brian Eaton]

Brian, if memory serves correctly, Paul Sellers often "chops" his tenon cheeks, so if you are going to follow his teaching, then perhaps your best joinery saw would be filed cross-cut. If you have a shoulder plane and a plane that you can use on a shooting board, then you might be content to do your cross cutting with a saw that is filed rip. If not, then for fine joinery, I'd think you would want a cross cut filed saw for cutting shoulders.

Given that you like learning new techniques, I think in your case it doesn't matter which you buy next because my guess is that it won't be long before you own one of each. I say this to encourage you to not over think this. What Spears and Jackson saw is Sellers recommending and what is the price point of that saw? Where are these sourced in the U.S.?

Joe - the Spears and Jackson saw I've seen Paul Sellers talk about can actually be found on the UK amazon site (9500 R 22" Traditional Skew Back Woodsaw). It ends up being about $40 with shipping. I know it isn't in the same category as an old Diston, etc. but I try to be very cost/quality conscious. If I can save money and still get a good tool then I'm willing to try it out! That being said, I'll be waiting until I've had an opportunity to see what I can find at that antique tool show I mentioned in early June.

[Pete Taran]

Having been to many, many tool meets, I'd be stunned if you couldn't find a cheaper and superior old saw there. You might need to put in some elbow grease and learn to file, but as I recall from Seller's ministrations, he advocates refiling the Spear and Jackson saws before use anyway. So, if old tools appeal to you, go for it.

Just be sure to make sure the plate is generally straight. A gentle and gradual bend is easily removed, a sharp bend can't. Also, carefully look at the amount of rust the blade has. If you see just a thin coat of rust, it will likely clean up ok. A thick, flaking coat of red rust is beyond salvation. Further, look for a saw in the best shape you can find for the money. Meaning, you can buy lots of basket case saws for $10 each. You might pay $30 for one that is in generally good shape requiring a minimum of clean up. The difference in price is worth it in most cases.

A third factor is look for saws that have regular and even teeth. The teeth can be dull, but they should be regular and evenly space. Also, the toothline should be straight or have a breasted edge. If it's all over the place, pass, unless you are willing to send that saw out and get it retoothed.

[lowell holmes]

You can file crosscut with a rip saw, but it will be a rougher edge. You will do better with 10 or 12 tpi.

[Kees Heiden]

The finer the teeth the less you need a special crosscut saw. At 15 tpi I hardly feel a difference. But below 12 and certainly below 10 I feel a marked difference and a crosscut is very much worth it.

Get two saws, a rip at 10 tpi and a 12 tpi crosscut or something like that. More saws WILL follow.

[John Sanford]

You have a ryoba, i.e. you have a rip saw AND a crosscut saw. So, unless you're looking for an opportunity to get a new saw (not that there's anything wrong with that, mind you), you're already set with what you need for the workbench.

[Mike Holbrook]

Look behind door #3. There is another option, a saw blade filed as a “Sash” saw. I have the Tools For Working Wood (TFWW)(Gramercy) model, and it is my favorite saw. The Sash saw was designed for exactly the purpose you mention. Some will argue that the Sash saw is actually a Tenon Saw, but it has important variations that allow one to make cross cuts with similar results.

Gramercy (TFWW) makes a kit that comes with hand hammered teeth/plate. Ron Bontz offers an even more customazable kit for a Sash/Tenon saw. Bad Axe may offer parts too. You can learn a good deal making your own saw.

[Brian Eaton]

Look behind door #3. There is another option, a saw blade filed as a “Sash” saw. I have the Tools For Working Wood (TFWW)(Gramercy) model, and it is my favorite saw. The Sash saw was designed for exactly the purpose you mention. Some will argue that the Sash saw is actually a Tenon Saw, but it has important variations that allow one to make cross cuts with similar results.

Gramercy (TFWW) makes a kit that comes with hand hammered teeth/plate. Ron Bontz offers an even more customazable kit for a Sash/Tenon saw. Bad Axe may offer parts too. You can learn a good deal making your own saw.

If only I had $300! That would consume most of what I can budget for workbench material and a few other tools this summer.

[Monte Milanuk]

If only I had $300! That would consume most of what I can budget for workbench material and a few other tools this summer.

I hear ya! I'm finally making some forward progress on my first real 'woodworking' bench; I figure the lumber for the legs should be pretty well seasoned after sitting in the shop for <way too many> years :rolleyes: I've got a couple ryoba saws that are going to probably get tagged for most of the saw cuts, mainly because they're cheap and they're what I have on hand. That said, I recently put a deposit on a Bad Axe 14" carcass saw. This article (http://badaxetoolworks.com/pdf/FC262_Need_Want.pdf) by Mark Harrell (of Bad Axe Toolworks) touches on what saws (size, teeth, etc.) he thinks you 'need' vs. 'want'.

[Mike Holbrook]

Actually you do not have to buy an entire kit, which is sort of like a model airplane with all the parts. I think the kit you mention has all the parts ready for assembly. I believe there are a number of different places your can purchase blades/plates from. I suspect a plate/blade without teeth ground in it might be obtainable for far less than an entire kit. There are lots of models/designs for handles floating around. You can make or buy a back out of a number of different materials. The screws which hold the handle on are available from multiple sources too.

Learning to make and set the teeth for an entire plate is somethng I want to do at some point. I am confident it will develop a greater understanding of everything going into tooth design. I think there are places where you can buy teeth ground in by a machine and then refine them yourself too.

I think Ken Hatch makes a good point about building a bench, just do it. Chances are by the time you are done you will figure out a significantly better design and your needs will change. My original bench was 2x4s, 2 sheets of 3/4” plywood, a sheet of particle board, screws and nails, with a single Record vise. Now I am building an adjustable height workbench/worktable using loose tenons....then I will build a “real” bench from various hardwoods I have been collecting.

[lowell holmes]

IIRC, when I attended a Paul Seller class, he filed all his saws rip cut.

[Simon MacGowen]

IIRC, when I attended a Paul Seller class, he filed all his saws rip cut.

When he did a season of tradeshows on the road, I went to his last demo. He used back saws that were rips only, regardless of the cuts, because for cross cuts, he made a knife wall first. I guess he brought only rips to the shows because he did not have to double check the teeth when he picked it up. This guy was something as he used a #4 for everything, including edge jointing. He also had a 4 1/2 on the bench. But he made it clear to the crowd that they should use a longer plane for that job.

At the end of the show, he gave away his bench. He planted the seeds for his online success (he was solo then, now he is supported by a team).

Simon