Physical ailments and WW

[David Ragan]

I'm only 60, and the last 3 years have had a very tough time w my left knee.

My mother in law told me yesterday: You may never get over your knee pain-it might be just part of getting older.

Leaving aside the diagnostic and therapeutic aspect of dealing w physical ailments, how do you all cope w stuff like this?

-If I stand too long, the pain becomes so bad I have to sit.
-If I sit, I'm good.
-I have a wonderful hobby, and love to do it, but just cannot tolerate being on my feet for a long period, say over 20-30 minutes

Maybe a lot of carving is in my future.
Maybe chip carving.

I suppose my question is this:

-How have some of you all adjusted to not being able to stand a lot; how can one pursue WW sitting? Is that possible?

Thank you, and have a great Memorial Day weekend,
(especially to those w loved ones who this Holiday is about)

[Jim Koepke]

One of my solutions is a couple of saw benches at the bench. When working around the tail vise they are at right angles so my backside can slide around the corner. They can also be set up end to end along one side of the bench. The only time that requires standing is planing panels or long pieces.

It may mix up the work flow a bit to change back and forth from what can be done sitting and what can be done in short sessions of standing, but it can be done.

On the other side of this is knee supports or replacement. My wife was around 60 when she had her's done

jtk

[Michael Pyron]

I'm 55 and started having knee issues a few years ago...I found that wearing a compression brace on both knees works pretty well, and have also found I must wear knee pads anytime I find myself working on my knees as even the slightest thing (like finding my knee on a pebble) causes a downward spiraling set of results that are fairly painful.

[Mike Cutler]

You can absolutely sit and do wood working. I've seen videos of people in wheel chairs doing woodworking.
Look at at changes in footwear and low impact flowing to get you off the hard surfaces.
Incorporate joint supplements into your diet. Glucosamine, SAMe, Boswellia, hyaluronic acid, etc.

You should though get to the bottom of the actual issue if, and when, at all possible. They're doing amazing things with joint surgeries these days.

[Simon MacGowen]

Time to pick up the traditional woodworking skills, I say.

You are not limited to carving when you can only or largely sit to woodwork. In fact, it is is better to sit down to do chisel work, and you can saw when sitting down if you have a low bench.

Planing? Japanese woodworkers sit on their bums to plane! You can plane by pulling with a western plane, but I would invest in Japanese or Taiwanese wooden planes which are more affordable for planing while in a sitting position.

The most critical thing here is your bench which must be built or retrofitted to accommodate your new way of woodworking.

Many physically challenged persons including visually-challenged folks and people in wheelchairs can continue to woodwork. A knee issue is a small obstacle compared to them. At 60, you shall have at least 15 years of active woodworking life in front of you.

Simon

[Jim Becker]

David, it's no uncommon for folks to have knee issues like you describe and it's something that can be addressed pretty effectively these days, depending on the root issue. Have you discussed your options with your doctor(s)? Also, be sure that your footwear is setup correctly as that can exacerbate knee and back pain. I had to get inserts to "correct" how I was standing and they have helped noticeably...at least while I'm standing. I also have quality anti-fatigue mats in my shop in all the places I tend to stand.

That said and to your specific question, I have a lot of physical joint and body pain that I deal with that is still undiagnosed. My hands and wrists are affected, as is my right hip and lower back. So I frankly just muddle through. I notice it less when I'm actually doing things...it mostly comes out when I'm trying to sleep, sadly. At 61 and recently retired, I refuse to let this stop me from doing what I like to do, but I'm hopeful that at some point, the root cause can be identified and appropriate measures taken. Ibuprofen only goes so far and one can only take so much of it. (under Dr. supervision, of course)

[glenn bradley]

I have had a blown knee, sprained ankle, tennis elbow and shoulder impingement. Like anyone who is active and pushes themselves a bit I encounter my limits. For all these types of ills I cope by diligently following the doctor's orders and doing the work (physical therapy). I watch others in the PT groups do well and not so well. When the therapist probes for answers, those not gaining on the problem often confess lack-luster effort at home in their PT.

All that being said, I try to keep safety at the forefront in my decisions of what I will do and not do. Even a bench chisel can send you to the ER if you are not steady on your feet or using good body positions. I may have a bit of arthritis in my wrists and hands and when that is acting up my grip is unreliable. I don't do procedures that require a lot of hand strength at those times. There is a wide enough variety of things in this craft to keep me active even when workting through an injury. Just check yourself often to see that your up to what you are attempting and stay safe.

[Stephen Tashiro]

Leg problems can lead to a downward spiral in health because it's difficult to burn many calories without using your legs. With today's food options, people who sit most of the time are likely to be obese, which puts more strain on their legs and spine, which makes it more comfortable to stay seated. If you get to the point where you use an electric cart instead of walking, you face an extreme version of the problem.

[John K Jordan]

I
Maybe a lot of carving is in my future.
Maybe chip carving.


Do you do any turning? Lots of things can be done sitting. There are even lathes that fold over and adjust for sitting and even wheelchair use. I often sit on a tall stool when sanding and finishing woodturnings and sometimes while turning small things.

That you are good for 20-30 minutes suggests continuing with what you like interspersed with sit-down activities, preferable BEFORE it gets out of control!

Carving immediately came to mind for me, too. Chip carving is both tedious and relaxing and is best done seated. I also do most carving with hand, recip, and rotary tools while sitting. Lots of people sit to do enhancements on wooden turnings and items such as wood burning, painting, air brushing, texturing, carving.

Perhaps branch into something entirely different? Drawing, painting, pottery? I often sit while operating my metal-working lathe and milling machine when working on small projects. A side hobby of electronics design and repair is also provides sit down time. I have a comfortable chair and good lighting in my little office/library in the shop, perfect for breaks to read, sketch out ideas for woodturning, or to occasionally watch a DVD.

But I know a number of people with serious knee problems who had them fixed to like new with medical technology. When my knee acted up the doctor said to first try a knee brace which worked for me. But I assume you've exhausted or at least checked into all these.

Good luck to you! Let us know how things progress.

JKJ

[Mike Null]

I don't think you can avoid "diagnostic, therapeutic" in this conversation.

I have some issues with my back where I simply have to sit down and take a break but after believing that a knee replacement was on the horizon a visit to an orthopedic specialist seems to have solved my knee issue. They are giving me an injection of steroids every 3 months or so and my pain has disappeared.

I'm 81.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I have issues with both knees that have been reduced significantly since I began going to a gym and working out 3 times a week starting last year. I have periodic issues with my back which I broke in 2001 and my hip. I bought a stool for my shop as just getting off my feet for a few seconds can help reduce the hip discomfort.

I have a disease that cost me my hearing, and effects my balance. I took a fall last year. I landed on my side and injured a shoulder. The workouts at the gym have seems to have eliminated my shoulder pain.

At the age of 15 I began working on oil rigs for my father, for a contractor one entire summer I bucked hay bales, elk hunted in the mountains for a couple decades, in my 30s ran 10K-12K road races and did martial arts for a few years. When I consider everything that I have put my body through physically for 69 years, I am amazed that I don't have to take pain medicines daily. BTW, pain medicines scare me, even the over the counter ones so I avoid them if possible.

Like Glenn Bradley, everything I do in my shop, safety is my first and main consideration especially after I encountered a 5/8" pattern bit on my router while I was home alone one morning. Thankfully my neighbors were home!

My only holdback in woodworking is my abilities and financial limitations.

Like Jim Becker, the busier I am, the better I feel.

[Charlie Hinton]

Both of my knees have been diagnosed (MRI) with torn meniscus about 15 years ago.
If the torn part stays seated in place there's no pain, if the torn part gets shifted out of place it can be unbearable.
For me the pain came and went for many years with varying intensity.
About 3-4 years ago my knee had been hurting really bad for months and I finally decided to see the doc about it again.
He said he could cut out the torn parts but it would lead to other issues and prescribed anti inflammatory pills, I had no faith they would do anything for me but in two weeks time it was pretty much a miracle for me.
After 4 months the drugs were discontinued and I have only had a couple of minor flare ups since then and the anti inflammatory drugs bring it back to pain free very quickly.
Everyone is different and orthopedic doctors are different.
The one I originally went to 15 years ago wanted to do surgery at that time, I wasn't ready for that then.
The one I went to a few years ago (when I was ready to do surgery) wanted to try medicine first.
Thankfully that worked for me.
If you haven't done it get some diagnostic images done, it pretty much has to be a CT scan or an MRI.
In my area, Dallas, the price can range from under $1k for CT to many thousands depending on where it's done.
Talk to your regular doctor and get them to find a lower cost option for you.
If you are overweight lose weight.
I know that is easy to say and I know personally (-100 lbs) that it's hard to do and hard to maintain once it's done but not carrying around the extra weight in my advancing years has really improved my quality of life.
Good luck to you sir.

[Bill Dufour]

Lots of people like the hydraulic adjustable table as a workbench base. Adjustable for ergonomic height. If the jack is too hard for you to use install a air-hydralic jack.
Bill D.

[Bruce Volden]

I'm having trouble too! Mostly my arms/elbow areas. Knees ache terribly lifting heave stuff but recover after a couple hours.
I have been getting ready for winter cutting trees, splitting wood, hauling wood, stacking wood.........yuk!
Hopefully I will be ready in another week or two.

What---this IS woodworking too, right.

Bruce

[John K Jordan]

...
At the age of 15 I began working on oil rigs for my father, for a contractor one entire summer I bucked hay bales, elk hunted in the mountains for a couple decades, in my 30s ran 10K-12K road races and did martial arts for a few years. When I consider everything that I have put my body through physically for 69 years, I am amazed that I don't have to take pain medicines daily.

When we are young we think we are invulnerable. Just because we can jump of a 6' wall without instant pain doesn't mean we aren't damaging something. Same with loud noises and body slams. My mother used to warn us about things like that and encouraged us to read Shakespeare and play the piano instead of football.

A friend of mine in his teens and 20's was a stunt man in ski movies and surfing movies. He was amazing, from the clips I saw. At age 45-50 his joints started going and he ended up with total hip and knee replacements.

JKJ

[Lee Schierer]

When my knee pains started limiting what I wanted to do, I looked at alternatives. The steroid shots did little to change the pain. I just had partial knee replacement done on my left knee this past Monday. After just 6 days, my level of pain is about the same in my left knee as it was before the surgery. I have 2 more weeks of recovery plan to get through. What my surgeon said to a group of prospective patients it "When the pain interferes with the quality of life you want to have, then you should seriously consider joint replacement." I looked at two different surgeons and hospitals for my surgery. The first said without a doubt that I needed a full knee replacement. The second doctor took weight bearing x-rays and also took two shots of my knee being flexed outward and then inward. These two shots showed that the outer half of my knee was in good shape. The inner portion was totally gone. The first surgeon did none of these weight bearing or flex x-rays. I had just the inside portion replaced. My leg is much straighter now.

[John K Jordan]

..BTW, pain medicines scare me, even the over the counter ones so I avoid them if possible.
...

I forgot to mention how smart I think that is! My architect son said he worked on designing a 4-story addition on top of a local heart hospital. He toured the new facility after it was finished and in operation. He was surprised to see that MOST of the patients in the new area were young people. Apparently opioid addiction takes quite a toll on the heart.

I found this: "The heart problems seen with opioids are not generally well known among the public, or for that matter by many doctors. In fact, some of the cardiac issues associated with opioids are just now being recognized."
https://www.verywellhealth.com/can-opioids-cause-heart-problems-4134144

I was amazed and a little frightened when a urologist here gave me a prescription in January for FIFTY powerful pain pills for kidney stones. Fifty??? Yes, I took some over the next week but now what am I going to do with the other 46?

JKJ

[Ken Fitzgerald]

John,

I know how easy it was for me to addicted to nicotine. I smoked cigarettes for 41 years. It was tough getting off of them. I can only imagine how difficult it must be for those addicted to pain killers. I have experienced some serious pain. I broke my back and 2 weeks later sitting on the toilet at 9:00 p.m., it collapsed again. I laid on the floor until 9:00 a.m. and it was as if from the bottom of my buttocks to the base of my neck was on a giant cookie sheet of boiling oil. It was a burning pain. I was too cheap to go to the ER just for pain. The next morning I was on the phone with my orthopedic surgeon BEGGING for pain medicine. He prescribed a steroid and the pain was resolved. Pain meds scare me.

[Larry Frank]

There are some people with chronic, severe pain who need the pain meds to live day to day. Under appropriate medical care they can be taken for long periods without addiction. If your doctor is handing out too many pain pills, you should discuss your concerns with him rather than fill the prescription.

The opioid crisis gets a lot of press and the deaths and suffering are terrible. However, the majority of the deaths are due to illegal drugs. The total deaths per year around 43,000.

As a reminder, the smoking related deaths per year is 480,000. Wow, what a crisis and 10 times more than options. Nicotine is very addictive and cigarettes are killers.

Alcohol related deaths per year are 88,000...another crisis. More than 10,000 deaths with alcohol and driving.

[Frederick Skelly]

I'm younger than many of you but my feet and legs hurt after time spent on concrete floors. I put down good quality anti-fatigue mats around my bench. I also have a stool that I use whenever the operation I'm doing permits (like chopping waste from DTs). Stretches also help my legs/feet (but those won't help your knees).

[Bruce Wrenn]

Bi lateral knee replacement in 2013. Unfortunately by the end of the day, my knees still ache. So bad that when we go shopping, I get a cart in the parking lot to use as a walker. Standing, as in line, is a BIG NO NO! As long as I'm moving, my knees generally don't hurt. Sometimes right knee hurts so bad that right hip joins in the fun. I still do both woodworking and run my repair business. Now I pick my jobs, so as to not hurt if possible.

[Larry Frank]

I am always saddened to hear people who have had joint replacement still have more pain. The satisfaction rate for total knee replacement is very high and more than 9 out of 10.

I have had hip replacement and it greatly reduced the pain. I wore one out in 7 years but the new one has not worn. The revision was like doing ball joints on a car. I am very happy with the new parts.

Every orthopedic type surgery has risks and a success rate. Hips and knees are very successful. I think finding the best surgeon is a critical step.

Now, back surgery is a different thing. Much trickier and much more difficult.

[Joe Tilson]

I had the right knee replaced some 15 years ago, and had pain for about 2 yrs after. 5 years ago went back to playing par 3 golf 3 times a week plus woodworking and house husband work. My left knee has gotten stronger, but still gives me some pain. It's not near as bad as it was 4 years ago. I am learning about sitting in the shop as well. While in my working years, they told us that sitting was a sign of laziness. If I could talk to them now, I'd say BULL HOCK! But again, I'm much braver now that retirement has come along.:p

[Marshall Harrison]

I injured my right knee while I was stationed in Germany as an M.P. back in the early '80s. Still bothers me today and can buckle on my at anytime. Sure makes using a table saw an exciting moment; I always make sure my stance is good and that my knee isn't twisted befoer cutting.

I sometimes sit in a stool at the workbench and I'll sit down often. Its my hobby and I recently retired so I'm in no hurry. Projects take longer but I can still enjoy it.

I don't know your physical situation but losing weight can help. I lost 30+ pounds last year and I stay on a low carb diet to make sure my weight stays down. And it helps. If I carry anything over 25 lbs then it bothers my knee. Moving my jointer into and out of a truck bed a couple of weeks ago really set me back. Walking causes it to flair up too if I do too much. I just take it easy when it acts up. Some Ibuprofen and Tylenol work pretty well for the pain.

This is what the rest of my life will look like. You just have to make the most of it.

[David Ragan]

I've carefully read your replies, and thank you.

Let me say that this entire process over the past 3 years has been hell (can I say that?).

Part of the problem is that I waited so long before asking for help.

On account of this being a public-searchable forum, I don't want to say too much about precise treatments-suffice it to say that I've faithfully done everything (and I do mean everything) you guys have said and more. I can describe about 15 knee PT exercises in minute detail. Of course, any decent PT program involves "rolling" and stretching, right?

When I see guys our age w shovels, doing construction, or blissfully going about their shop stuff.....I start feeling even worse.....that is not a good emotion.

If someone picks up a hint of anger in the above, they would be right.

JTK-hard to get a visual on what you're talking about w bench arrangements.

Electronics peaked my interest a few years ago, but could not wrap my mind around exactly how a transistor worked, so-back to the woodshop where familiar concepts like cambium, and growth rings rule.

Yes, I have had to severely restrict my calories and carbs-it is surprising how few calories it takes to make it through the day.

As for safety-thanks for the reminder.

Hand tools are not harmless.

It is clear from the responses that I'm not alone.

"Acceptance is the answer to all my problems today" (Paul O., page 449)

[James Pallas]

I'm only 60, and the last 3 years have had a very tough time w my left knee.

My mother in law told me yesterday: You may never get over your knee pain-it might be just part of getting older.

Leaving aside the diagnostic and therapeutic aspect of dealing w physical ailments, how do you all cope w stuff like this?

-If I stand too long, the pain becomes so bad I have to sit.
-If I sit, I'm good.
-I have a wonderful hobby, and love to do it, but just cannot tolerate being on my feet for a long period, say over 20-30 minutes

Maybe a lot of carving is in my future.
Maybe chip carving.

I suppose my question is this:

-How have some of you all adjusted to not being able to stand a lot; how can one pursue WW sitting? Is that possible?

Thank you, and have a great Memorial Day weekend,
(especially to those w loved ones who this Holiday is about)
For myself I have a Nuero- stimulator implanted in my back for back pain and have knee problems from injuries. I like woodworking and want to keep it up. I have to manage my time well. If 30 minutes is all you can do than adjust your work to that. I also can go about 30 minutes at a session but can manage a couple of sessions a day, usually. The plane shavings have gotten thinner, the project sizes are smaller but I still enjoy it. I bought an adjust a bench and made a few appliances to help out. I would much rather be woodworking than watching TV so I find ways.
Jim

[Jim Koepke]

JTK-hard to get a visual on what you're talking about w bench arrangements.

Hi David,

My saw benches at about 21" tall, mine are built like saw horses and are often used for sitting. Along the front edge of my workbench they are set up end to end. The tops are smooth and it is easy to slide along without having to stand. At the tail vise, benches are set at right angles to each other so it is fairly easy to scoot around the corner.

Here is the build thread on one of the benches:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?146777

The two larger benches are the ones used for sitting around the work bench:

386659

The little one is in the house for a foot rest/stool/table as needed.

jtk

[David Ragan]

For myself I have a Nuero- stimulator implanted in my back for back pain and have knee problems from injuries. I like woodworking and want to keep it up. I have to manage my time well. If 30 minutes is all you can do than adjust your work to that. I also can go about 30 minutes at a session but can manage a couple of sessions a day, usually. The plane shavings have gotten thinner, the project sizes are smaller but I still enjoy it. I bought an adjust a bench and made a few appliances to help out. I would much rather be woodworking than watching TV so I find ways.
Jim


You are right up my alley, sir.

A few years ago, it would be hard to imagine me saying i'm sick of TV-but I am.

Know what gets me excited? The prospect of a bingeable series on Netflix, etc that I have not seen.

I have watched all:
--Justified
--Sons of Anarchy
--Breaking Bad (it's about how money corrupts, not the drugs)
--Downton Abbey (Great show)
--Poldark
--Animal Kingdom
--Tried Bosch, just not enough action, or interesting situations for me.
--Handmaid's Tale (watched like 3-too weird)
--All of Law and Order Criminal Intent (Love that guy-goofy, but smart.....)
--Hand of God (Need to do Season 2)
--Forged in Fire, etc etc

I enjoyed your recent threads about hand tool speed a great deal.




Hi David,

My saw benches at about 21" tall, mine are built like saw horses and are often used for sitting. Along the front edge of my workbench they are set up end to end. The tops are smooth and it is easy to slide along without having to stand. At the tail vise, benches are set at right angles to each other so it is fairly easy to scoot around the corner.

Here is the build thread on one of the benches:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?146777

The two larger benches are the ones used for sitting around the work bench:

386659

The little one is in the house for a foot rest/stool/table as needed.

jtk


I got it-

You have the two little benches arranged @ 90*, L-shaped, @ the corner of your main bench.

Perfect.

[Jim Koepke]

You are right up my alley, sir.

A few years ago, it would be hard to imagine me saying i'm sick of TV-but I am.

Know what gets me excited? The prospect of a bingeable series on Netflix, etc that I have not seen.

I have watched all:
--Justified
--Sons of Anarchy
--Breaking Bad (it's about how money corrupts, not the drugs)
--Downton Abbey (Great show)
--Poldark
--Animal Kingdom
--Tried Bosch, just not enough action, or interesting situations for me.
--Handmaid's Tale (watched like 3-too weird)
--All of Law and Order Criminal Intent (Love that guy-goofy, but smart.....)
--Hand of God (Need to do Season 2)
--Forged in Fire, etc etc

I enjoyed your recent threads about hand tool speed a great deal.






I got it-

You have the two little benches arranged @ 90*, L-shaped, @ the corner of your main bench.

Perfect.

Forged in Fire may be the only program listed to have garnered any of my viewing time.

Got it right on the seating. It is easy to mark and cut dovetails at the tail vise sitting down. Planing small items isn't too difficult either. Even if one has to stand, it isn't constant standing if you remember to sit when you can.

jtk

[Brian Deakin]

I am a retired pharmacist (age 60) and have had knee problems since the age of 16 I have had three knee operations and would suggest the following general advice in no particular order

Identify what exercises you can do to stabilize /improve /maintain the condition of your knee It is essential you receive the correct advice so identify the most appropriate person speak to (eg. an orthopedic surgeon) draw up an exercise programme and do the exercises regularly

Loose weight if appropriate

Identify what makes our knee worse eg walking down hill, uneven surfaces, wet slippery floors ,carting heavy weights eg. shopping and takes appropriate steps to minimize or stop eg. do not carry heavy items get help /purchase a shopping trolley

Shoes wear appropriate footwear eg rubber soles that give soft cushioning and if necessary insoles to give further cushioning Again seek advice what is the most appropriate footwear

[Carlos Alvarez]

I used to have chronic knee and shoulder pain. It was always there, and some days it was so agonizing I couldn't walk through a grocery store. I'd have to put my right foot on the cart and lean on the cart sometimes, just pushing with my left. I found a partially solution via a friend, and then a full solution from another person.

First, I stopped wearing "normal" shoes most of the time. I started wearing Vibram Fivefingers on the recommendation of a friend who is an avid runner and hiker. Within a couple weeks of doing that, a lot of the pain went away. In particular, the really acute pain that made it impossible to walk much was gone. Every time I'd wear regular shoes it would come back. So I just wear Fivefingers 100% now, I don't own any regular shoes. On top of that, they are SO comfortable.

Then a few years ago I was encouraged to try a dietary change for both weight loss and overall health. I spent some time with a famous person you probably all know, who needs to use his hands in very delicate, fine, and fast ways. He would take six (6!!) naproxen before a show just to be able to get through the arthritis pain in his hands. He was also on a ridiculous amount of heart medication. The docs were really telling him he'd die soon. He sought some medical advice from many sources and settled on a radical but well documented diet change. About six months after he started, when he had already lost a huge amount of weight and the arthritis symptoms were nearly gone, I happened to be working on his home studio and home automation systems, so I saw the change. Overall he went down to a very low dose of the heart meds and rarely needing the naproxen. So I started on this also. All of my joint pain went away even before I lost much weight. After ten days on the new eating plan, my watch band actually became loose. It wasn't weight loss, it was joint inflammation going away. I've stuck with it pretty well and the results have stayed around. When I have strayed from it, I start getting the dull ache in my knee and shoulder that always preceded the higher pain levels (well, it was always around, and would just increase here and there). It turns out, food actually affects your body. LOL. I basically only eat whole foods, nothing processed, no salt, and minimal added oils (as in near zero). Very little animal-based foods. As long as I stick with this, I am pain-free.

These are big changes. I get people saying "I couldn't it do it because X" and I just say, well, your choice. I don't care what people think of my shoes or my food choices. Health is more important than everything else.

[Andrew Joiner]

"Acceptance is the answer to all my problems today" (Paul O., page 449)
I like that as well David. My favorite story in the book.

[Roger Nair]

I have knee and foot injuries from years past and my method of dealing is to maintain strength through exercise. Get a plan from a therapist.