Old Iron Help (12” Silvers Jointer)

[Elliott Wilson]

Hi all
New to posting on SMC here and I’m desperately in need of advice
I LOVE old iron but sometimes I flush my money going after it
Someone in my area is selling a 1911 silvers manufacturing 12” jointer (3hp 1ph) for $275
It has a Babbitt and clamshell set up now and I’m hoping to replace with a Tersa head
It has the classic clamshell damage to the infeed table that has been patched but other than that seems to be in really great condition
So my question to all of you is
Is it worth it to spend $1200 on a new head and refurbish this top to bottom or pass?

[Will Boulware]

Hi Elliott!

Put me down as another old arn enthusiast. I've got a 24" Crescent jointer from the same era as the Silver you're looking at. Barring a modern Martin, there is NOTHING I would trade mine for (and even the Martin would be a questionable trade :D ) If you're ok with getting your hands dirty and learning some new old skills, this will turn out to be a fantastic machine for you. If you want a guesstimate of what something of this quality would cost you, check the current Northfield catalog.

Something to think about.... Don't assume it will be a $1200 head because of comparable pricing on other 12" models. These babbitt bearing machines have heads with spindles that run WAY off the ends (compared to a ball bearing cutterhead). Any good manufacturer can machine what you need, though. I'm pretty sure Hermance and Byrd can match your head if you ship it to them. I don't know anything about the Tersa heads.

One more thing to think about - when you get your cutterhead back, you'll most likely have to repour the babbitt bearings to get a good fit. This is a surprisingly easy process, and nothing a little research won't get you through.

One other option that I've seen done with good success is finding an old planer head of similar size (plenty of people are swapping theirs out for helix models) and having it modified by a machine shop. I've got the factory 4-knife head on my crescent and it cuts remarkably well, so don't write off a straight knife head if you can dredge up a good frankenstein swap candidate (Make sure the diameter is the same as what you need).

All that may sound complicated, but you're looking at a lifetime machine that will be awesome to use, so don't write it off! Let us know what you end up doing!

[Mel Fulks]

Seems to me the clamshell heads usually get replaced mainly because of predjudis against BABBITT. Those old machines will safely take off a lot more wood per pass than the new stuff. Some will take off a whole inch at once. That makes the jointer a good stand in for a straight line rip saw. And two knives cut fast. And those machines are easy to rig up helpful knife changing jigs since the out feed table adjustment wheels can be calibrated to help with knife change jig then reset quickly.

[Elliott Wilson]

I am against the clamshell mainly for the safety concerns
Judging by the infeed table this machine has already thrown a knife once and I prefer to keep at least 95% of my body parts
Plus the wife wouldn’t let me go near it until it has a safer modern blade inside it

[Elliott Wilson]

386487386488
here's some pics

[Mel Fulks]

None of them are safe. But some of the operators are! I've got a friend with a machine much like that one ,like many, he first assumed the Babbit was shot...but if was fine. My guess is that you will be better off with a machine some one ready to move on to stamp collecting is selling than making extensive changes to that one.

[Elliott Wilson]

well the specific problem with the clamshells is that all the force is transferred directly to the bolts and they can shear causing a catastrophic failure
the bolts are also prone to "stretching" over time causing it to bottom out in the hole and providing inadequate clamping force on the blades.
it doesnt matter how safe the operator is when a blade is flung from the machine at a 100mph

[Mel Fulks]

Certainly possible that the machine has been used by some incompetents. Almost a certainty. I'm sure new bolts can be had. I've worked where there was a lot of that stuff,but the guys worked their way up as an apprentice. No one got to run any machine just by saying he knew how. Had fewer injuries then than now. But they were "good jobs" then.

[Elliott Wilson]

Hey will, thank you for your comment!
My uncle works for a darn good local machine shop so I should have some adequate help in that dept
I was hoping to switch the Babbitt to balls but I don’t know how extensive a process this would be, do you know anyone that has done this to an old jointer before?
Byrd makes a replacement head for the 8” of the same year for $1200 but I’ve read that a Tersa would be slightly cheaper so that’s where I got that guesstimate

[Will Boulware]

Please tell me those shots are from inside your shop!?!?!?! Go get that thing!!!

And ditch the clamshell. I agree fully with Mel on general safety and on the babbitt issue - No machine is safe, but those cutterheads (Wadkin variant excluded) are a disaster waiting to happen. As far as babbitt goes, there's not much to be afraid of. Babbitt is simple and it works! You can do it!

[Mel Fulks]

Many of the sale ads for old jointers say they have been converted. I see that as not understanding that the babitt runs
smoother than most bearings and lasts a long time. If the stuff is good when you buy it ,it is unlikely you will wear it out.

[Elliott Wilson]

no not yet!
i have to figure out if im going to make the 5 hour drive with my drop deck trailer or hire a freight company
according to vintage machinery it is 1200lbs
have you any experience with shipping huge old arn?

[Elliott Wilson]

oh i wasn't aware of that, i have no issues using babbitt if its better i had just heard otherwise on other boards and want to restore this beast to a premium machine

[Will Boulware]

no not yet!
i have to figure out if im going to make the 5 hour drive with my drop deck trailer or hire a freight company
according to vintage machinery it is 1200lbs
have you any experience with shipping huge old arn?

I went and got mine (Drove from Tennessee to Iowa) with a uhaul trailer. If you have any way to pry it up (or access to a forklift and some straps), throw some 4x4 or 4x6 skids under it, bolt them down, and then roll it on 1 1/4" black iron pipe. My wife rolled mine into the shop (She wanted to do it herself). Just go slow. Jointers are simple machines to handle.

The fact that you own a drop deck trailer says you need to get this one yourself. Shipping will be expensive even before crating fees, and you'll probably have to drag it home from a fastenal or a freight dock even if you get it shipped. 5 hours isn't a bad drive.

[David Kumm]

I'm guessing a Byrd or preferably a Hermance ( even Terminus ) head will cost more like 2000-3000. Veriify the prices with a picture of the original head as reference. If that price is accurate, there are plenty of 12" plug and play options from Oliver, Yates, Porter, Newman, Etc Etc Etc. Dave

[Jeff Heath]

Clamshell heads are not dangerous because of the babbitt bearings. They are dangerous because their design relies on the clamping strength of bolts that stretch over time and use, allowing a just enough wiggle room to throw a blade. It's catastrophic when it happens. I've purchased a jointer that had this catastrophic failure, and I've read about quite a few others from my owwm brethren. You are absolutely right in wanting to change the clamshell head. They are simply dangerous, and if you've seen the carnage up close and personal, you wouldn't want to be in the building when one of these lets loose.

Babbitt bearings are excellent bearings. I have several babbitt machines, and in my opinion, they are every bit as good, if not better, than top end ball bearings. If you maintain them properly with oil, they will last a century before wearing out. Repouring babbitt for a new cutterhead is not a big job, and a lot easier than it sounds. Plenty of good youtube video's on Keith Rucker's channel about pouring babbitt.

Machining a head for a babbitt machine will cost more because there is more overall length involved, as a babbitt machine would incorporate an extra 6" or so, at each end, not found on a ball bearing machine. Like Dave said, the best way to not be surprised is to send photo's and proper measurements to the maker of your choice for price quotes.

If it were mine, I'd machine a 4 knife straight head for that machine, restore it, and have a lifetime machine for the shop. I know, because I already have done this to 6 jointers. Great machines when they are set up right. The species of timber I work doesn't warrant the extra expense of a spiral head. YMMV. I paid $400 for my current 16" jointer. It was a train wreck, ready for the scrap yard. I resurrected it and now it's a perfect machine. Hard to beat 2000 lbs. of cast iron for stability in a jointer.

[Andrew Hughes]

I would not add a Bryd Head it a Babbitt bearing jointer. Inserts with their 30 degree face bevel and slower speed of a Babbitt nope no way. The technology is too far apart.
Two sharp straight knives is the way it's designed.
Look for a two knife head with a 40 degree hook angle. The cutting circle needs to be the same.
Too me it looks like your road is narrow :(

[Elliott Wilson]

I would not add a Bryd Head it a Babbitt bearing jointer. Inserts with their 30 degree face bevel and slower speed of a Babbitt nope no way. The technology is too far apart.
Two sharp straight knives is the way it's designed.
Look for a two knife head with a 40 degree hook angle. The cutting circle needs to be the same.
Too me it looks like your road is narrow :(

Whats your opinion on a Tersa or Terminus head?
from what i've read on Babbitt bearings is that they are designed for high speed high load applications (if you maintain your lubricant levels)
if you run a babbitt too low it wont draw the oil into the cavity to lubricate your shaft
please correct me if i've been mislead

[Andrew Hughes]

I am against fixed cutters for a jointer.
I like to have the freedom to set my jointer knifes to the out feed table. If the knives are fixed in the head that great and easy to replace. But now the tables across the width infeed and outfeed need to be in the same plane.
some guys find it easy to make that adjustment to their machine. But not me I found it to be difficult.
I thought Babbitt run slower.
For you to compare my jointer runs at 3600 with a 5 inch cutting circle. I can easily tell when my knives are getting worn or if one is high after setting in new ones.
Good luck looks like a great machine.:)

[Bradley Gray]

I have an old Fay & Eagan 16" with babbet bearings about the same age. I had a machinist rework the square head to hold 4 modern knives with gib screws, Twice the cuts per revolution without spinning faster.

[Jeff Heath]

Babbitt bearings can easily handle the speeds of modern cutterheads. They are not a slow speed bearing material. There are also different alloys of babbitt available.

I personally believe in setting up a jointer correctly the first time, for all time. That means infeed and outfeed tables should be coplaner. Once this is done, it's not too difficult, with a .001 indicator, to get the cutterhead set parallel to the height of your outfeed table. If one side is low, it's pretty easy to cut the necessary shim stock thickness to fit under the low side and shim it up a tad. We're talking a few thousandth's of an inch, so not rocket science.

Personally, I scraped the ways on my current jointer, as well as the bearing seats, to dead nuts. I know it's not for everybody, but it took a days work, and I've got a machine that does it's job and makes very flat sides on wood. Now, setting freshly sharpened knives is a snap. 30 to 45 minutes to swap out a set. I use this gauge, available from Northfield. Money well spent.

386508

[Mel Fulks]

I like the Fay and Egans. But more knives cut slower , I like two ,or three.

[Darcy Warner]

My 30" Babbitt jointer runs at 3600 rpm, same as a direct drive machine.

That head is not an Oliver clamshell. It looks to have thick knives, probably slotted. I wouldn't dismiss that head, I also wouldn't think twice about an insert head, know many guys running them in their Babbitt jointers, I have an insert head for my universal woodworker.

[Mike Cutler]

I have an old Fay & Eagan 16" with babbet bearings about the same age. I had a machinist rework the square head to hold 4 modern knives with gib screws, Twice the cuts per revolution without spinning faster.

Bradley
Could you please post a photo of the modifications?
I have a 16" square head that I still haven't gotten around to restoring, and that sounds like a very useful modification.

Thank You
Mike