Cheap vs Premium Chisels: First impressions

[Frederick Skelly]

Premium chisels: 5/8" Ashley Iles Mk-II and 1/2" LN.
Cheap chisel: 1/2" Marples Blue Handle. I bought a set of 6 for less than a single LN cost.

* Fit/finish impeccable on both Premiums.
* AI and LN are well balanced
* The LN is noticeably thicker than the AI. (Some of that may be because it is 1/8" more narrow.) The lands are ground much steeper too.
*The back on the LN has been lapped. The AI still needs to be. (Will do it this weekend.)
* The AI and LN were sharp right out of the box. Both ground at a 30* bevel, but in use the AI "feels like" it's ground lower. I cannot figure out why. (I wonder if the AI is sharper. Dunno.)
* I touched up the cutting edge of both on my Shapton 6000. It seemed like the AI was sharper when cutting notebook paper. The AI is O1 vs A2 in the LN. Jury is still out until I do more work.
* The LN's socket handle looks very small. In reality, it's only 1" shorter than the AI. So far, both handles feel fine in-hand.
* The 5/8" AI is noticeably lighter weight than the 1/2" Marples. That's partly because the Marples has a long heavy handle.

I cut two pair of dovetails and chiselled out the waste.
* The only difference I noticed is that the AI doesnt seem to bruise the baseline as much as the LN or the Marples.
* Other than that, they all 3 worked equally well.
* I did not see any advantage to the thin edges on the LN or AI. Yet.

More this weekend.
Fred

[John C Cox]

The Iles chisels are made following old Sheffield cabinetmaker's chisel patterns - which were considrably thinner than most current designs are... Even the old Firmer chisels were quite a bit thinner than current offerings... LN are made following older Stanley Carpenter's chisel patterns - which tended to run more beefy....

Did you regrind the AI chisel to 30 degrees? The set I have showed up a hair under 25 degrees... They do much better in my hands with a 30 degree microbevel....

For me - the big advantage of the finer side bevels comes when sneaking into corners to massage a fit a bit... I really prefer fat, square sides for the vast majority of things I do with a chisel... But - it's handy to have a set with nice fine side bevels when you need to sneak into a corner....

[steven c newman]

With those Aldi's chisels...depends on which "Model Year" you get..
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Last year's model (top) compared to one from 3 years ago ( bottom) same width chisels...

[Frederick Skelly]

The Iles chisels are made following old Sheffield cabinetmaker's chisel patterns - which were considrably thinner than most current designs are... Even the old Firmer chisels were quite a bit thinner than current offerings... LN are made following older Stanley Carpenter's chisel patterns - which tended to run more beefy....

Did you regrind the AI chisel to 30 degrees? The set I have showed up a hair under 25 degrees... They do much better in my hands with a 30 degree microbevel....

For me - the big advantage of the finer side bevels comes when sneaking into corners to massage a fit a bit... I really prefer fat, square sides for the vast majority of things I do with a chisel... But - it's handy to have a set with nice fine side bevels when you need to sneak into a corner....

Thanks John. I can already tell that I'll be hard pressed to choose one brand over the other. The machining and finish on the LNs is impeccable - they are really a work of art. The AI is slightly less perfect but still a wonderful tool.

I did not regrind. My AI came at 30*.

I'm looking forward to trying those thin side bevels this weekend!

Fred

[Patrick Chase]

If you had an infinite budget then it would be interesting to throw O1 and PM-V11 LVs into the mix.

I think that the hand-forged AI is an extremely good tool for the money, and suspect that it would more than hold its own functionally against the O1 LV. I also think that the PM LV is hard to beat though.

I'm not surprised that you got a more refined edge on the forged O1 chisel than on the LN. O1 is finer-grained to begin with, and the directional refinement from forging presumably extends that advantage further still.

I also think that the AI is a very well-proportioned chisel that's about as thick/heavy as it needs to be and no more.

[ken hatch]

If you had an infinite budget then it would be interesting to throw O1 and PM-V11 LVs into the mix.

I think that the hand-forged AI is an extremely good tool for the money, and suspect that it would more than hold its own functionally against the O1 LV. I also think that the PM LV is hard to beat though.

I'm not surprised that you got a more refined edge on the forged O1 chisel than on the LN. O1 is finer-grained to begin with, and the directional refinement from forging presumably extends that advantage further still.

I also think that the AI is a very well-proportioned chisel that's about as thick/heavy as it needs to be and no more.

Patrick,

Chisels are so personal, what suits one might drive another to barking at the moon. I've a set of LV PM-11 chisels and of the chisels pictured below they are my least used. Nothing really wrong with them other than they do not feel right in hand and on the stones. Also in all my years of using chisels they are the only chisel handle I've split. LV made good but....

The two favorite Western chisel are the pre-war Marples and the Ashly Iles. The other favorite user (not pictured) is the #1 White Steel Kikuhiromaru. Of all the chisels I own the Marples have the best balance of feel and steel. Of course as always....YMMV.

A photo of some of my 12mm (1/2") chisels with weight in grams. From left to right: Lee Valley PM (113g), Sorby (131g), Marple (107g), Ashly Iles (111g), Swiss Made (105g), Koyamaichi #2 White Steel (109g), and not pictured Kikuhiromaru #1 White Steel (99g)

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Click 'em to big 'em,

ken

[kent wardecke]

I'm holding out for an Aldi "set". But i am going to the Springfield extravaganza this weekend and I'll probably pick up some more older American made chisel s. Buck Bros, Ohio Tool, Stanley etc.
I messed around with my 1x30 belt sander with an angle guide 20 deg with a 25 deg micro bevel. It's sharp, sharper than I can get my kitchen knives.
From what I understand i should go with a 25 deg grind and a 30 deg micro bevel?

[Robert LaPlaca]

I bought a set of AI butt chisels that must be 15 years old, that I use for chopping dovetails, the reason for the butts is I prefer short chisels for dovetails. I find the AI steel really nice, sharpens pretty easily and holds an edge nicely. I sharpen the chisels on Shapton Pro stones.

My only comment about the vintage AI butt chisels I bought was the lands are really portly, which makes sense since these are really Carpenters chisels, more than cabinetmakers chisels. So I kind Frankensteined the chisels by grinding the lands really thin. IIRC, the new version of these chisels the lands are much thinner..

[Hasin Haroon]

I've got the AI chisels and the Veritas PMV11s. Also have the Stanley sweethearts and a couple sets of vintage bevel edged and firmer chisels (I'm due for a purge). I've tried the LN chisels too - out of all these if I had to choose a chisel that was the best bang for the buck, or even most used in my shop it would be the Ashley Iles.

They are just made with a focus on whats important - a classic time tested shape and design, a hollow ground O1 steel and a simple yet comfortable handle. It's a wonder they are still the price they are, and I had to get a set just because I know they will have to bump up their prices eventually.

That said they dont have the fine finish of the Veritas or Lie Nielsen - the hoops often have glue squeezout, the makers mark is off skelter more often than not etc. but those are easy to get around. The PMV11 chisels are fantastic, great steel and well finished. The Lie Nielsens are well finished but I wish they offered an O1 version. For LN and LV you get what you pay for, for AI I feel like you get a bit more than what you pay for them.

The new stanley sweethearts are kind of meh.

[John C Cox]

I gotta say Fred - whatever decision you finally make... Getting the chisels in your hands and trying them out is the right way to do it...

Each of us likes something a bit different... So you may well end up hating my favorite thing and vice versa... And there's no way to really know without putting the tools on wood and running them through your sharpening routine ...

[Frederick Skelly]

I polished the back of the LN chisel, even though it came lapped. I just wanted to. Then I honed the bevel. It's sharp and cuts notebook paper cleanly.

Next, I lapped the back of the AI. It came with a bit of a rough surface on the back and 2 factory ground hollows. (See ##, below.) Took a bit of work, but I got it lapped. But then I dropped the doggone AI and chipped a corner. That forced me so see how it ground and sharpened. All of that went fine. Very very very sharp.

So I then cut about 8 pair of dovetails, alternating between the AI and LN. By the time I was done, I found myself reaching for the AI more often than not. The LN was thicker at the bevel and just did not give me as clean a baseline cut as the AI.

Of the two brands, I think I prefer the AI so far. But I still need to cut a bunch of dovetails and alternate between my cheapo Marples Blue Handle and the AI. I definitely like the thin AI and it's low profile side bevels.


##About those 2 factory ground hollows:
* The first hollow starts about 1/2" behind the cutting edge and is about 1 1/2" long. To me, it looks like they deliberately machined it a couple thou deeper to reduce your lapping. (TFWW website mentions that.)
* Then there is a second hollow that looks like the back of a Japanese chisel. This begins where the handle meets the blade and extends forward about an inch.
* Between the two hollows is a flat spot that is coplanar with the first 1/2".
Two hollows seemed odd, but it's what I have. Dunno.

More to come....
Fred
.

[David Eisenhauer]

Agreed on your second impression Frederick. I have both and (to me) the AI just feels slightly better in my hands than the LN, with the LN always having felt just a little "chunkier" than the AI. I tend to use the LN if I need to strike the chisels and the AI for hand paring only. The AI O1 steel is nice to touch up, however I will not say the LN A2 is really hard or difficult to sharpen either. Just another subjective feel for me that may not agree with others. The larger LN sizes do seem to be really chunky and heavy, but the smaller 1/8", 1/4" and 3/8" seem to feel OK in my hands and do hold up to lots of mortice bottom scraping and debris removal. I have not tried a comparison on chopping dovetail baselines but will do so soon. The handles on the AI really do fit my hands nicely and the only complaint I can come up with is that occasionly the brass hoop on an AI will stick in one of my too-tight chisel stand holes and come loose. I do need to ream the chisel holes just a little more. I have considered leaving the AI at a 25 deg bevel and the LN at 30 deg for use as desired to fit the circumstance.

[lowell holmes]

Well, this string made me remember that I have a leather chisel roll full of LN chisels.
I have not seen it since my shop was decimated by Hurricane Harvey.
I need to find my chisels.:confused:

[John C Cox]

I did not regrind. My AI came at 30*.

Interesting - did they have the factory grind on the bevel? Every one in my set came from AI at a hair under 25 degrees...

Glad to hear your testing is progressing well so far.....

It's pretty telling that the worst thing people can come up with on AI chisels is that sometimes the ferules come loose and you have to glue them back on with a drop of superglue... And I basically agree... They are fine chisels... There is nothing else on the market quite like them...

That's a universe better than all my Harbor Freight chisels arriving without proper heat treatment - very shallow hardness which I then proceeded to sharpen right through in my initial chisel prep leaving a mushy edge which wouldn't hold up past a minute or two of light work..

[Robert LaPlaca]

It's pretty telling that the worst thing people can come up with on AI chisels is that sometimes the ferules come loose and you have to glue them back on with a drop of superglue... And I basically agree... They are fine chisels... There is nothing else on the market quite like them...



Well, one pretty common issue that Fred also discovered is the chisels love to roll off of the bench and almost always wind up hitting the deck edge first..

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks David! Your experience is a good calibration for me. Very much appreciate you sharing it.

Lowell, I read about Dickinson online, knowing from your posts that you live there. I hope you can recover your shop. I can tell by your posts it was a traumatic experience. Hang in there Sir!

John, I just checked again and both the LV and AI came with 30* bevels. To me, both looked like factory grinds. The AI really is a nice tool. Is it better-enough than my Marples to warrant buying a set? I still haven't decided. But I really like these things.

Fred

[steven c newman]

Used the wide Aldi's chisel today...trimming end grain...
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Had to power the chisel with my chin, though..
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And the back?
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Had two rails, with these tenons on both ends....didn't seem to bother the edge of the chisel..

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YMMV

[lowell holmes]

Frederick, my shop is about back together. The rust is gone, the edges are sharp, and my saws were not lost.
My D12 has no rust, is sharp, and has a new curly maple handle.

[John C Cox]

Steve,

I am always amazed at how much work you get out of those Aldi chisels.... Mine roll the edges when push cutting end grain.. I get maybe an inch of smooth cutting and then it goes awry.. I have a suspicion that my Aldi chisels share a common diagnosis I recently stumbled upon with my HF chisels... Specifically - Something awry with their factory Heat treatment routine lead to very shallow hardening... In the HF chisel - this created a thin section of hard metal over a much more malleable core... It's a classic concern with simple water hardening steels. And my aggressive chisel prep routine may have gone right through it leaving the softer material underneath as the new cutting edge.... As a data point - new Buck Bro's chisels (tested at Rc56-57@ hardness) honed to 30 degrees do not exhibit this same problem... So provisionally it's not 100% me...

The way to test my hypothesis would be to get another set and do the absolute minimum edge prep required to sharpen them - especially the backs - and then have at it... Unfortunately - Aldi's chisel stock was long gone before Easter and Mother's day... And it's still plant and gardening related seasonal.. Father's day is still a month away... So that test is on hold (at least until the new Lidl opens up in town...)

[Warren West]

I thought we might hear about how the Blue Chips compare. I have a couple of the recent Irwin which are purported to be garbage and find them quite good in use and edge holding. Not heirloom works of beauty by any means but more than good enough for any actual use short of mortising which should be done with a mortise chisel imho.

[Frederick Skelly]

I thought we might hear about how the Blue Chips compare. I have a couple of the recent Irwin which are purported to be garbage and find them quite good in use and edge holding. Not heirloom works of beauty by any means but more than good enough for any actual use short of mortising which should be done with a mortise chisel imho.

I hope to compare my Blue Chips this weekend Warren. Like Mr. Newman, I get a lot of work done with my Aldis and my Blue Chips. That's what motivated my experiment here. It's been fun so far.

Fred

[Stewie Simpson]

I polished the back of the LN chisel, even though it came lapped. I just wanted to. Then I honed the bevel. It's sharp and cuts notebook paper cleanly.

Next, I lapped the back of the AI. It came with a bit of a rough surface on the back and 2 factory ground hollows. (See ##, below.) Took a bit of work, but I got it lapped. But then I dropped the doggone AI and chipped a corner. That forced me so see how it ground and sharpened. All of that went fine. Very very very sharp.

So I then cut about 8 pair of dovetails, alternating between the AI and LN. By the time I was done, I found myself reaching for the AI more often than not. The LN was thicker at the bevel and just did not give me as clean a baseline cut as the AI.

Of the two brands, I think I prefer the AI so far. But I still need to cut a bunch of dovetails and alternate between my cheapo Marples Blue Handle and the AI. I definitely like the thin AI and it's low profile side bevels.


##About those 2 factory ground hollows:
* The first hollow starts about 1/2" behind the cutting edge and is about 1 1/2" long. To me, it looks like they deliberately machined it a couple thou deeper to reduce your lapping. (TFWW website mentions that.)
* Then there is a second hollow that looks like the back of a Japanese chisel. This begins where the handle meets the blade and extends forward about an inch.
* Between the two hollows is a flat spot that is coplanar with the first 1/2".
Two hollows seemed odd, but it's what I have. Dunno.

More to come....
Fred
.

Fred; the following video outlines the benefits of those factory ground hollows on the back of the Ashley Iles Mk-II. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENqMrvsR3q8

[Frederick Skelly]

Thank you Stewie!
Fred

[Tony Zaffuto]

Well, one pretty common issue that Fred also discovered is the chisels love to roll off of the bench and almost always wind up hitting the deck edge first..

Not always-once in a while a wayward chisel decides to roll off the bench on a beeline for your ankle....

Also, Joel, from "Tools for Working Wood" has a nice article on his blog mainly about paring chisels, but includes bits about angles of bevels and descriptions of vintage chisel construction.

[Frederick Skelly]

Well, I like the AI better than the LN. So tonight, I compared the AI against my Marples Blue Handles. My objective was to see if there was enough difference for the work I do, to warrant replacing the Marples with AIs.

Well. I'm not sure there is. For me.

* Chopping out waste from dovetails, the Marples seemed to cut faster and more cleanly. I recognize that part of that is because my Marples have a 25* bevel, compared to the AI at 30*. I don't think all of it is. (I dont really want to grind a Marples to 30*, then take it back to 25* after making a direct comparison.)
* The AI really does get into the corners nicely because of the thin blade and thin side bevels.
* The AI is a nice, balanced tool. But it doesn't feel that much better in-hand than the Marples. To me.

I think I answered my initial question. My cheaper chisels seem to work well enough for me and I don't get a lot by replacing them. It's not like the mammoth improvement I got when I hung up my Box Store backsaw after I bought my first LV backsaw. Or even the jump I got moving from my LV backsaw to my LN backsaw. It also isnt the major upgrade I got when I bought the Knew Concepts fretsaw and threw away my old coping saw. I just don't see enough change to warrant the cost.

But if I didn't own any chisels, I think I'd buy the AI. It's a lovely, balanced, capable tool.

YMMV.
Fred

[John C Cox]

Which variety if Marples blue chip do you have? Current SBD production, Irwin pre SBD China made which looked kinda like the Sheffield ones, or the Sheffield ones?

My impression is that the SBD made Marples chisels are the best in the "budget" price range.... They sharpen easily and hold an edge well enough. They make pretty good "regular bench chisel" chisels....

[Frederick Skelly]

Which variety if Marples blue chip do you have? Current SBD production, Irwin pre SBD China made which looked kinda like the Sheffield ones, or the Sheffield ones?

My impression is that the SBD made Marples chisels are the best in the "budget" price range.... They sharpen easily and hold an edge well enough. They make pretty good "regular bench chisel" chisels....

John, I'm not smart enough to know. They are probably 10-12 years old. Blue handle with a white ring. Handle is a glossy plastic that's shaped much like the ones on the AI. They are nice tools and feel pretty good in-hand. It says "Marples" in silver on the handle.

[John C Cox]

Typically the British made ones say something to the effects of Sheffield or England on the blade.... But that description sounds like the England made ones before they went over seas.

[Frederick Skelly]

Typically the British made ones say something to the effects of Sheffield or England on the blade.... But that description sounds like the England made ones before they went over seas.

Edit: John, I don't recognize the acronym SBD? Based on your thoughts I looked more closely. I can see a faint "Made in Sheffield England" that I didn't recall. Any idea whether these are the "SBD made Marples chisels are the best in the "budget" price range"? (Sorry to be so dang dumb. I just don't know.)

Fred

[John C Cox]

Sorry..
SBD = Stanley Black and Decker.

Sounds like yours are the Record made pre-Irwin chisels....

[Nicholas Lawrence]

But if I didn't own any chisels, I think I'd buy the AI. It's a lovely, balanced, capable tool.


Fred, I am glad to hear you liked them. I probably would not have bought mine for myself either, but mine were a significant upgrade over the Stanley hardware store chisels I had. Sounds like your Marples are a pretty good chisel in their own right.

[John C Cox]

Those UK made Marples were generally regarded as pretty good tools... The only complaint I heard was some people wishing they were a bit harder and the occasional report of an un-hardened chisel ending up in someone's hands...

[Matt Lau]

Try Japanese chisels...good white steel chisels.

Those will blow away your cheap chisels by a big margin IMHO