Powermatic vs Delta TS

[Gary Herrmann]

Don't mean to start an argument here. SWMBO has said that "Maybe you can use your bonus to buy one of those cabinet saws you've been talking about."

Took a quick peek at Amazon, and I can get the Delta for about $1850. The PM is about $2250. I've got a PM 6" jointer and have been very happy with it.

My question is, what makes the PM worth $400 more? I believe it weighs more and supposedly is a bit more heavy duty. I think its also still made in the US, but I'm still interested in your opinions. Especially those of you that have used both. Thanx.

[Travis Porter]

Can't speak to the Unisaw, but I love my Powermatic 66. Very well made, good fence, no regrets. I bought a DJ-20 jointer as I didn't want to spend the extra money on the Powermatic, and in a lot of ways wish I had bought the Powermatic as the fence on the PM was better than the Delta. Being that a lot of PM is now made in Taiwan (don't know about the 66) I cannot say that it is still as good as it was. I do like the left tilt on the PM, but you can get it with a Unisaw as well.

[tod evans]

the powermatic has a slightly heavier trunion, but both are good saws for the money, don`t discount general either, or jet for that matter. jet and delta are taiwan, general is canadian&powermatic is still made in tenn. i believe the powermatic is still using a baldor motor which is a good thing. tod

[Chris Rosenberger]

I have both & they both are excellent saws.

[John Miliunas]

Oh no-o-o-o-o-o! Here we go again!!! :eek: As stated, they are both good saws, as is the General but, for some reason, people keep forgetting about the Bridgewood BW10LTS as a very, very viable option when talking about the heavy trunion/frame assembly. :D AND, less $$$ than PM or General or Uni! Just something to consider.... I've had mine a couple years now and can't say enough good about it.:) :cool:

[Frankie Hunt]

I faced the same decision this past spring. I had it narrowed down to those two saws. My neighbor has a PM66. I ended up with the Unisaw. Both saws are fine. Don't fret the decision, just get one and don't look back.

Here's one thing to think about. Woodworkers supply currently has the Unisaw with mobile base for 1499, the Dewalt sliding table for 485, and the Uniguard for 288. The total is $2272. Thats only $22 more than the PM66.

Before I purchased my saw I called Delta and asked if the Unisaw was made in the USA, they said it was. When it arrived it had the "Made in the USA" sticker on it. It's moble base was made in the USA too. I purchased a DJ20 at the same time. It's moble base was made in china. Both mobile bases are of good quality.

I prefer the Unifence, the rest of my shop is Delta gray, and I knew the the Dewalt sliding table would fit on the Unisaw rather easily, so I got the Unisaw and I am VERY well pleased!

Would I make the same decision again? I would do it again in a heartbeat! The saw is wonderful. Having the sliding table is super nice. I feel much better about safty having a great guard on my saw. The Uniguard comes with a splitter that is EASILY removable. The Delta mobile bases are much nicer IMHO than the htc bases, more stable, beefier built and easier to activate/deactivate. For me the choice is/was very clear. Spend the additional $22.00 !!!

The bottom line ...... Both are fine saws, just get one and dont look back!

[Jason Tuinstra]

Gary, I have had a Unisaw since March. I got mine from Woodworker's Supply where I got a free mobile base and free shipping. I know that some others here took advantage of this as well. They still have the deal for $1499. I know that the fit and finish is nowhere near the PM, but for my needs, the Unisaw is just fine. That's where I would make the call concerning which to buy. Becuase I'm a hobbiest, I think I already have more machine than I'll ever need. So I saved some money and got some Festools - more tools that are way more than I need :p :D I know that the price difference isn't that much with the prices you quoted, but if you look around, the price difference can be quite a bit more than that. Regardless of your choice, you'll be very, very happy.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Gary, I'm going to try to state my theory of tool buying as it applies to these two saws in particular, and tool buying in general. Once you determine which features you want and need, and identify those tools which meet your requirents, one tool is just as good as another within a general price range.

If functionality were the only criteria, you'd probably be better off going with the cheaper tool. However, some tools have more "cache" than others and it all comes down to personal tastes, likes, disklikes and even a little bit of personality. To some people, that slightly larger trunion and nicer finish on the Powermatic table top make it the tool to buy. Others will look at the $400 difference and say its just not worth the $$$. Only you can decide which group you belong in.

Please keep in mind I am talking about comparing apples to apples, a unisaw to a powermatic, not a contractor saw to a unisaw or a 13" planer to a 20" planer.

[Greg Narozniak]

I faced the same decision this past spring. I had it narrowed down to those two saws. My neighbor has a PM66. I ended up with the Unisaw. Both saws are fine. Don't fret the decision, just get one and don't look back.

Here's one thing to think about. Woodworkers supply currently has the Unisaw with mobile base for 1499.

Would I make the same decision again? I would do it again in a heartbeat!
The bottom line ...... Both are fine saws, just get one and dont look back!

Well Said and I agree 100%

[Roy Wall]

Gary, I have had a Unisaw since March. I got mine from Woodworker's Supply where I got a free mobile base and free shipping. I know that some others here took advantage of this as well. They still have the deal for $1499. I know that the fit and finish is nowhere near the PM, but for my needs, the Unisaw is just fine. That's where I would make the call concerning which to buy. Becuase I'm a hobbiest, I think I already have more machine than I'll ever need. So I saved some money and got some Festools - more tools that are way more than I need :p :D I know that the price difference isn't that much with the prices you quoted, but if you look around, the price difference can be quite a bit more than that. Regardless of your choice, you'll be very, very happy.

Gary, Jason's post seems to be the "best deal" so far.....I also thought of John M. and his "Bridgewood 10LTS" machine....a viable option.

Just to go look at one - just for the heck of it - is a Sawstop. I mention this because Ken Waag lives in St. Louis and you could easily go take a peak. He may also have a 10 yr old Jet Cabinet saw (unless sold by now). Send me a PM if you want his email; he'd be happy to show you the Sawstop and talk shop.

I was going to get decent contractor's saw - but my wife made me get a cabinet!!!

Since you have a green light, I'd get the one you'd be most happy with-- because $400 or $1500 extra does "mellow" when you have the machine for the rest of your lilfe.

[Michael Gabbay]

Gary - One other option to look at if you have $2000 to spend is the General 350 or 650. Just to muddy things up even more! :D

Dev wrote a great dissertation a few months ago when I asked a similar question. Basically he puts the General above the PM based on the type of casting it uses.

I've also seen the PM against the Bridgewood and I personally like the BW, nicer trunion. Alden Miller, who is a PM66 owner felt the same when we looked at them at Wilke a year ago.

Mike

[Roy Wall]

Gary - One other option to look at if you have $2000 to spend is the General 350 or 650. Just to muddy things up even more! :D

Dev wrote a great dissertation a few months ago when I asked a similar question. Basically he puts the General above the PM based on the type of casting it uses.

I've also seen the PM against the Bridgewood and I personally like the BW, nicer trunion. Alden Miller, who is a PM66 owner felt the same when we looked at them at Wilke a year ago.

Mike

I knew John M. wouldn't give us biased info!!!!! :D :)

[Mark Carlson]

All the saws mentioned in this thread are good. I faced the same decision this summer. I ended up going with a General 650. I would buy that saw again or the 350.

~mark

[fred woltersdorf]

i have the pm66,just love the color of baby poo in the morning.all kidding aside i faced this descision 2 years ago,looked at shop fox which i almost bought,unisaw,general,bridgewood and pm.i loved the fit and finish and the baldor motor,so i guess those were my deciding factors.the unisaw is a wonderful saw.you can't go wrong buying it.

[Tom Sontag]

Gary,

Did you see the PM66 on Craigs list - St. Louis? Not sure if it is still available...

[scott spencer]

...My question is, what makes the PM worth $400 more? ... The gold in yellow paint costs more than plain gray...:D

Honestly, I'd just go with the one you like best for whatever intangible reason...pick a color!

On a more tangible note, IIRC the cast iron on the Uni is now brought in from China, and the motor is made in Brazil (if any of that matters). Not sure of the future of the PM66 with the introduction of the PM2000. The Uni offers a Biese fence with the laminate faces, whereas the PM has the Accufence with the UHMW plastic faces...the General has a fence that's about identical to the Uni's but is still made in Canada and the whole saw is overbuilt to old time standards. If you consider foreign made saws in your search, the door opens to the PM2000, GI, SF, Grizzly, Bridgewood, Woodtek, and Jet to name a few.

Good luck and keep us updated please!

[Dan Forman]

If a dead flat top means a lot to you, go with the General (Canadian made). They use a different type of cast iron that doesn't warp. My Delta top is not very flat, the miter slots are different widths, if I go from right to left slot, I have to change the adjustable set screws on the Woodhaven Miter gage. I was told that this is not uncommon, and that the top is within Delta's tollerance. If I had to do it over, I would not get a Delta. Don't know much about Powermatics, nobody sells them here.

[tod evans]

bite the bullet and go northfield! nice american made stuff!http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/Brochures-PDF/TiltingArborVarietySaws.pdf

[Dale Rodabaugh]

Just bought the Delta Unisaw,left tilt 50 in.Beismeyer fence and extended table,from Woodworkers Supply.$1499.free shipping no tax.,Delivered right to my shop.:) :rolleyes: :cool:

[lou sansone]

bite the bullet and go northfield! nice american made stuff!http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/Brochures-PDF/TiltingArborVarietySaws.pdf


Sure tod !! you must be joking. Is there actually anyone on the creek that owns a northfield #4. Real nice machines.

As long as we are offering american machine then I will offer up a couple of favorites as well.. Oliver 260D and oliver 88. And for those who are interested in one... I will be selling my Oliver 260D

lou

[Allen Bookout]

Gary, I agree with what Dan said. I bought the Delta Unisaw several months ago and am dissapointed about the top as it is not perferctly level and there are mill marks showing on the surface. In fact it is not completely smooth as you can even feel the mill marks. I am sure that the miter tracks are not exact as my crosscut sled just cannot be made to run smooth all the way across the table. Have not measured because I do not really want to know how much they are off.

Woodworkers Supply told me it was one of the Made In America models but when it came it did not have a Made In USA sticker and does not have a Baldor motor so it might as well be any saw that comes from Asia as that means that the top was made somewhere else also where evidently the standards are not so high.

If I had it to do over I would look into the Bridgewood as John said or look into the PM66 (ugly color) of which I have no knowledge or go with the General (Not Gereral International) route. I suspect that the Bridgewood is excellent if John recommends it and we all know the reputation of the General that has not jumped to the substandard of the Asian manufactures just to make a few more bucks and in the process cost local jobs. The only downside to General is that it is green. Gray would have been better.

I would have gladly spent another $400 to have a perfect saw since I am going to have it for so long.

I don't want to thank about it anymore as it is giving me a headach.

Let us know what you decide.

Good Luck! Allen

[Dev Emch]

I have worked on the insides of several unisaw going back over 30 years and have tinkered with the insides of the PM 66 as well. I have used both saws.

The PM 66 is left tilt and a bit more heavy duty. But now you can also get the unisaw in left tilt. So in general, I would say the PM 66 rates a hair better than the unisaw. I think you would be happy with either one and maybe it boils down to color.

But my all time favorate saw in this particular class has to the General 350. Without a doubt. End of story. End of Paragraph. If I needed to buy a unisaw class machine right now, I would not waste any time researching the topic. I would immediately purchase the general 350 and be done with it. If you gotta have left tilt, then buy the General 650. Same beer, less filling.

[Dev Emch]

Allen and others.

First of all, I do not blindly support Delta. Given my choice, I usually go with General of Canada. I have owned several of their machines and only sold them to get much bigger industrial machines. My current jointer runs circles around my old general jointer not because its better but because 20 inches wide is better than 8 inches wide.

I do like the DJ jointers but overall, I am not a Delta fan. My opinion. Delta used to make the unisaws and bandsaws in Tupelo, Miss. but that plant is now closed down. As I understand it, all made in the US operations are actually outsourced to US based job shop machine shops. The DJ jointers and planers have been made in taiwan for many many years now. I know of no DJ jointers that were made in the USA. There may be some but I have not come accross any. Have any of you guys found a US flag on a DJ joiner?

Delta has contracts for foundry work in south america. I believe Brazil where rough castings are poured. The metalurgy is unclear and undocumented. So I dont know if Meehanite is being used. I actually doubt it. Castings are then sent to taiwan where preliminary machine work is done. Tops are blanchard ground and then grease packed for shipment to the USA. Delta's recent blanchard grinding has been rather rough lately with huge swirl marks. The argument is that it reduces sticktion which you get with a very smooth and shiny surface. Its also cheaper to do and you avoid finish grinding and polishing operations. I have never seen a super high end machine with that type of rough finish.

General uses meehanite from a meehanite certified foundry to make their tops. Also, the surface grinding on these tops is excellent with the machines usually sporting a smooth, matte sheen finish. The fit and finish on the general is legendary! That is all that needs to be said here!

So the general is a commodity of known facts. You know everything about the general before you purchase it. Nothing is hidden. The only thing the general has *NOT* done is partake in the grand epic of 80 days around the world.

[Tom Sontag]

I love my General 350 but still have not figured out a good way to have my DC get the dust from the cabinet. When the cabinet fills up I just shovel the dust one handfull at a time into the 6" outlet I attached that apparently does very little while the saw is cutting.

Ah well. A flat top, a reliable fence and workable tolerances (plus a 3hp motor) keep me satisfied.

[Dev Emch]

Tom... is your general one of the older ones with no baffles in the bottom and a louver door? If so, most folks simply build a baltic birch grain hopper for the bottom to which the DC hose is attached. The hopper fits in the bottom of the cabinet and is not visiable from outside. Also, they install a piece of 1/4 inch baltic birch ply into the inside of the door to keep the louvers from sucking air. This is the only major complaint I have seen with general 350 saws. Personally, I like a few wooden additions. Done right, they lend character and warmth to the machine. That is why my top inserts are home made from wood and not purchased. Same goes with push sticks and push blocks.

[Brian Hale]

Check out my post on this thread (#19) for some pics of the Bridgewood and PM 66 with the tops removed...

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=25571&page=2&highlight=bridgewood

Aside from the very obvious differance between trunion mounting and size, note the number of belts and number of mounting holes for the top.

Brian :)

[tod evans]

Sure tod !! you must be joking. Is there actually anyone on the creek that owns a northfield #4. Real nice machines.

lou no lou unfortunately i couldn`t swing that when i upgraded. as i told you in an earlier post i kept my `ol rt to use as a rip saw when i got the slider. i did think long and hard about not going with a slider (in the euro format) and getting the northfield instead. being as you are still undecided???????? this may be a viable option for you? if the northfield had offered an 8' slider my decision would have been much more dificult.but for the odd stuff i do i believe i made the best choice for me. tod

[Gary Herrmann]

Based on responses and my research over the last couple days. I'm going to go try to see a SawStop in person. I'm also becoming more intrigued by the General 650. The sliding table is beginning to really interest me.

I like the SawStop because of the riving knife. The blade stopping technology is nice too. If a "regular" saw had a riving blade, that would be great.

I'd love to get a euro slider, but there is no way thats going to get past SWMBO.

[Bill Spievak]

I have used the Delta, the General, and the Powermatic . Also used an Oliver and a Felder. In the Delta price range I don't think you can go wrong with either of the Delta, General or Powermatic. When I bought, 22 years ago I bought the Delta right tilt. If I were to buy today I'd go with the General right tilt. My old Delta has the same dust collection problems that the General has so it is not a big deal to me, I'm used to adding some plywood.

[Travis Porter]

When I ordered my DJ-20 jointer from Amazon it said made in USA. When it came, the base was made in USA, all the cast iron was shipped from Taiwan. I totally agree with you perspective on Delta. A slow downward spiral continues.

[CPeter James]

I have a PM66 that I bought used, but if I was going to buy new, my list of choices would certainly include the General 650. Same price range and a real nice machine. Made in Canada by people who care.

CPeter

[Tom Sontag]

Gary,

I agree that a decent splitter is the single best reason to look upscale, but it is not hard to put an aftermarket Bies splitter on a unisaw/PM/General. A slider is clearly nice; isn't there a 2hp Jet (or was it DeWalt?) that comes with a slider? Don't forget you will likely want an aftermarket miter gauge for crosscutting. I think that since the weaknesses of older designed cabinet saws require all this extra buying, it makes sense to look at newer designs like the DeWalt or Saw Stop or get an older cabinet saw used and upgrade (which is what I did).

[scott spencer]

... A slider is clearly nice; isn't there a 2hp Jet (or was it DeWalt?) that comes with a slider? Jet made an earlier hybrid with an open bottom cabinet called the Supersaw that had a slider option, DeWalt had a similar machine. Jet is introducing a newer version of it with a full cabinet and a better fence. Unfortunately, by the time you add the slider you're into the $1400+ price range. Both still have the trunnions hung from the table like a contractor saw. Neither are as heavy duty as the Uni, PM, or General, but do seem to fill a niche for many hobbyists.

[Gary Herrmann]

I've been looking at aftermarket splitters on the web. Am I right in assuming that they will not work with bevel cuts? That I'd have to remove them because they won't tilt with the blade - much like I have to remove my blade guard on my Dewalt bench top saw?

[Roy Wall]

I've been looking at aftermarket splitters on the web. Am I right in assuming that they will not work with bevel cuts? That I'd have to remove them because they won't tilt with the blade - much like I have to remove my blade guard on my Dewalt bench top saw?

Your are correct! Only a true riving knife like on Sawstop or Euro tables will tilt with the blade.....

FYI - the sawstop has two riving knifes.. one (for thru cuts) that rises above the blade and holds the blade guard; another riving knife set about 1-2 mm below the apex of the blade for non-thru cuts.

[Gary Herrmann]

Thanks Roy.

[Frankie Hunt]

I've been looking at aftermarket splitters on the web. Am I right in assuming that they will not work with bevel cuts? That I'd have to remove them because they won't tilt with the blade - much like I have to remove my blade guard on my Dewalt bench top saw?

Most splitters WILL work with bevel cuts. What they don't do is work with non thru cuts. That requires a riving knife.

The riving knife is flush with the top of the blade at all blade heights. Most American saws use a pivot system to move the blade up and down, the blade moves up in an arc. This means that if you tried to attach a riving knife on that type of saw the riving knife / saw blade heigth relationship would change.

This is one reason I didn't want to go with a Sawstop. It uses gas struts to offset the weight of the arbor and motor so it could move in a vertical path and not an arc. I have replaced a lot of those gas struts in my lifetime (several on vehicles and around a hundred or more on large printers) and did not want them in my saw. I am NOT knocking the Sawstop. I am sure its a fine saw and is probably better than my Unisaw, just not for me.

My Uniguard came with a removable splitter. It tilts with the sawblade. It takes about 10 seconds to remove. It is not as good as a riving knife, but it is plenty good enough.

The splitter that attaches to the throat plate does not tilt. I cant remember its name, but it is the only one that I know of that attaches that way. (It's a little green plastic tab thingie)

Frankie

[jack duren]

Geneneral, Powermatic and Unisaw all cut the same. color, weight and price are the only differences. but still cut the same. pick a color and price;) ....jack

[Bill Fields]

Hey Gary_

I had modest expectations of my hobbiest needs when I started acquiring tools. I bought the Hitachi CF 10-L (?) left-tilt hybrid saw for $500. My choice was driven by the need to have the tool maximally mobile--and the price was attractive.

This saw has treated my well after I have re-engineered the splitter/anti-kickback arrangement for easy mount/dismount, constructed my own mobile base after the stuff that came on it proved wimpy.

MY POINT: Once you have made the commitment to buy something, it's darn hard to decide to "move up" espacially when it involves getting rid of your "mistake". SO--

My advice is to get the best saw you can. tha way thre will be a minimum of "painful regrets" and you will enjoy, use and be proud of your choice.

BTW--these comments apply to the Ridgid 14" BS I bought for about $300. The quality and function leave something to be desired.

Good luck--

Bill Fields