Experiment: Cheap chisels vs Premium Chisels

[Frederick Skelly]

I got out my Aldis last night and did a significant reshape on the handles. Now they look better/plainer and feel better in-hand than the originals. Sharpened at 22*, I use them only for paring softwood. But as I was putting them back in their rack, I looked at my Marples bench chisels (blue handles with white rings) and thought "Geez, these work fine. How much better could expensive chisels actually work?"

So I got on the web and studied up on Blue Spruce, LV & LN. Just for fun I looked at the new Stanley 750s, too. Though they arent priced in the Premium category, I was interested in socket chisels. (We have a couple excellent threads in the archives about the new 750s, BTW.) From what I can tell just reading - lotsa reading, but only reading - the biggest differences between cheaper vs Premium brands are: edge durability, thickness of the lands, the quality/finish of the machined surfaces AND the aestetics - how they look and how they feel.

So, I think I'm going to order 1-2 LNs and find out for myself whether a Premium chisel is nicer-enough to warrant the cost. I doubt it will improve the quality of my work in the slightest. But then I'll know for myself.

Has anyone else upgraded from cheapos to LNs? Was there any real difference in the way the tool handled, aside from edge durability?

Fred

[ken hatch]

I got out my Aldis last night and did a significant reshape on the handles. Now they look better/plainer and feel better in-hand than the originals. Sharpened at 22*, I use them only for paring softwood. But as I was putting them back in their rack, I looked at my Marples bench chisels (blue handles with white rings) and thought "Geez, these work fine. How much better could expensive chisels actually work?"

So I got on the web and studied up on Blue Spruce, LV & LN. Just for fun I looked at the new Stanley 750s, too. Though they arent priced in the Premium category, I was interested in socket chisels. (We have a couple excellent threads in the archives about the new 750s, BTW.) From what I can tell just reading - lotsa reading, but only reading - the biggest differences between cheaper vs Premium brands are: edge durability, thickness of the lands, the quality/finish of the machined surfaces AND the aestetics - how they look and how they feel.

So, I think I'm going to order 1-2 LNs and find out for myself whether a Premium chisel is nicer-enough to warrant the cost. I doubt it will improve the quality of my work in the slightest. But then I'll know for myself.

Has anyone else upgraded from cheapos to LNs? Was there any real difference in the way the tool handled, aside from edge durability?

Fred

Fred,

Socket chisels were for carpenters, cabinet makers mostly used tanged chisels. Find a pre-war chisel meant for cabinet makers to run your tests. There is a difference.

ken

[John C Cox]

Fred,
A lot of folks like the feel of the Stanley/LN handles.... They also have much narrower side bevels - which can be a big plus if you do a lot of dovetailing or fitting small pieces where you need to sneak up into the corners..

For example - I like my Blue Spruce's narrow side bevels when I fit the tail graft on my guitars. I used my Ashley Iles this time and it worked well - I just wish it was 2" longer....

And on the bit about edge life.... Don't assume the Aldi chisels will necessarily do worse on wood... Often they hold their own a lot better than you would think when you run them head to head - they just don't feel as refined or elegant when they do....

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Fred, I went from a set of Stanley hardware store chisels (the fat max or whatever) to Ashley Iles. I noticed a big difference in the Iles. For whatever reason I can get them sharper. I have a set of the new Stanley socket chisels as well. I think the Iles are better. Sticking simply to the sharpening aspect, as the handles, etc. are too subject to personal preference.

[ken hatch]

Fred, I went from a set of Stanley hardware store chisels (the fat max or whatever) to Ashley Iles. I noticed a big difference in the Iles. For whatever reason I can get them sharper. I have a set of the new Stanley socket chisels as well. I think the Iles are better. Sticking simply to the sharpening aspect, as the handles, etc. are too subject to personal preference.

Nicholas,

Of modern Western Chisels the Ashley Iles tickle most of my chisel G-spots. If they had Boxwood handles they would be close to perfect. I haven't priced 'em in a bit but unless the price has gone way up they are a bargain as well.

ken

[bridger berdel]

[QUOTE= .......my chisel G-spot......

ken[/QUOTE]


.....Lol......

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks everyone. All good info.



Nicholas,

Of modern Western Chisels the Ashley Iles tickle most of my chisel G-spots. If they had Boxwood handles they would be close to perfect. I haven't priced 'em in a bit but unless the price has gone way up they are a bargain as well.

ken

Hi Ken, Nick,
The Best Things and Tools for Working Wood both sell a set of 6 for about $200. What is it you like best about them? The doggone price is really hard to beat if these are truly good tools.

Fred

[John C Cox]

For your amusement - here is a side view of a number of 1" chisels so you can get an idea of the profiles.
from top:
Woodcraft green handle
Aldi
Pfeil
Woodcraft socket
Two Cherries
Marples
Ashley Iles
Stanley Fat Max full length

The AI is probably the thinnest/most "delicate" profile.... Very nice for paring.

385788

[Frederick Skelly]

Now THAT is a lot of 1" chisels.

Fascinating picture. Thanks John!

[Mike Henderson]

Try the LV PM-V11 chisels for chisels that sharpen easily and hold an edge for a long time. If you get the LN chisels you can make new handles to suit your hand. That's what I did with my LN chisels.

Mike

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks Mike!

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Hi Ken, Nick,
The Best Things and Tools for Working Wood both sell a set of 6 for about $200. What is it you like best about them? The doggone price is really hard to beat if these are truly good tools.

Fred

Fred, I am not a chisel expert. I used the fat max ones for probably ten years because they were the only thing available in the hardware store when I went looking for chisels. They worked, so I was not going to spend money on other stuff. The Ashley Iles were a gift. I say this just because I am not Ken (who I think has every variety of chisel ever made).

What I like about them is the steel. I like the O1 a lot. I have never sat down and “scientifically” (I do not think a lot of the tests or comparisons we see are actually that scientifically valid) compared it to anything else, but my personal experience is that it sharpens a lot easier and takes a better edge then the couple of A2 blades I have, and a better edge then the “mystery steel” in the Stanley products.

I have read conflicting things on PMV-11. Some suggest it sharpens just like O1. The information on the LV website I read suggested it was more in line with A2. Whether it is easy or not probably depends on what stones you have, whether you use a Tormek or the sandpaper disk thing, etc. I have never handled PMV-11, so will leave the comparisons to others. You can compare price yourself.

The Iles handles are not Ken’s beloved boxwood. They are Bubinga or something hard, dense, and tropical. They feel like they have linseed oil or something on them, but I don’t really know. The brass ferrules may come loose in the winter (mine did when we moved to the new house) as the handles shrink in low humidity. I used a nail, and tapped one side lightly to make a little indent. They all hold now. I was unsure about the shape until I got my hands on them. I found I like them a lot. Ken has some antiques in pictures he has posted that have pretty much identical handles, so I assume it is a classic design.

The blades are fine. When I first pulled them out of the box, I thought they might be too fine to use. But that was silly. You are not going to bend them, unless you are doing something ridiculous. I have mortise chisels I use for mortises, but I have chopped with them without any concern (I have paid attention to Warren, and do not “beat” on them, nor do I pry or scrape them when cutting). The lands that everyone talks about are much thinner than any other new production chisels I have handled. I do not do a lot of dovetailing, but if you cannot get into the corner of a dovetail with one of the chisels in the six chisel set, I would be very surprised. They are finished well (not going to cut your hands on them).

Sharpening is what really caught my attention. I think I might have spent a half an hour on the whole set. I probably spent half an hour on each of my old Fat Maxes when I first got them. The Iles were all razor sharp. Somewhere along the way Ken mentioned using a combination of an India stone and an Arkansas with vintage or O1 steel. In my new shop water is a little more of a pain then in the old shop, so I decided to give it a try. The combination of an India (I have a medium, but I think if I were to do it again I would buy a fine) and a black Arkansas, plus a strop, and it takes almost no time to fix or refresh an edge. If I have done something stupid, or worked it longer then I should, the India will fix it in a couple of strokes. If I have not been doing anything dumb, I will just touch it up on the Arkansas or the strop.

I have not been able to do as much woodworking lately as I had hoped. Too much to do with a new house, kids, gainful employment, etc. But I have no regrets about the Iles chisels. If anybody needs something more out of a chisel they are doing something I am not doing. I have not looked at prices recently, but you can do that yourself. I picked up a used set of new Stanleys about a year after I got the Iles (partly because I always wanted to try a socket chisel, partly because the used set was not that expensive and I was curious). I think the Iles is a much better chisel for a little bit more money.

[Chris Parks]

Possibly OT but maybe not. A hypothetical question, why would I buy a Japanese chisel instead of a western chisel or vice versa?

[ken hatch]

Thanks everyone. All good info.




Hi Ken, Nick,
The Best Things and Tools for Working Wood both sell a set of 6 for about $200. What is it you like best about them? The doggone price is really hard to beat if these are truly good tools.

Fred

Fred,

Every thing Nick said much better than I could.

I will add, again just what Nick said, with chisels it is about "balance". By balance I mean a chisel that feels "good" in hand, that sharpens easily and quickly using your preferred stones and methods yet holds that edge long enough to get some work done. It isn't about being the best in this or that but more about being an extension of your hand and not getting in the way of work.

ken

[ken hatch]

Possibly OT but maybe not. A hypothetical question, why would I buy a Japanese chisel instead of a western chisel or vice versa?

Chris,

Western chisels and Japanese chisels come from different work traditions. Western chisels are built to be pushed or used with a soft or wood face mallet. Japanese bench chisels (oire nomi) are made to be struck with a steel hammer, there are different chisels for pushing. Also Japanese woodworkers have traditionally worked with softer woods than Western woodworkers. Both Western and Japanese chisels work well when used as designed. The best of all worlds is to have both and use them for their intended jobs. That is what I do, both have a place in my shop.

I know that doesn't answer your question mostly because there is not an answer to your question other than it depends.

ken

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks Nick! Thanks Ken!
Fred

[Jim Koepke]

with chisels it is about "balance". By balance I mean a chisel that feels "good" in hand,
[edit]
It isn't about being the best in this or that but more about being an extension of your hand and not getting in the way of work.

To me, how a chisel feels in my hand is as important as any other point of comparison. This is why one of my comments about purchasing tools is to try and handle it before handing over any money.

If a tool doesn't feel right in one's hands, it isn't going to feel right when it is in use. If a tool doesn't feel right, it will be a distraction every time it is used.

When one is trying to do good work with sharp tools, the last thing one needs is a distraction.

jtk

[Rhys Hurcombe]

Derek Cohen has, what I think to be, a well constructed comparison of different chisel steels on his website inthewoodshop.com http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/ChiselBladeTesting-5Steels.html

That being said he doesn't really cover a 'cheap' option. Still, worth a read.

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks Rhys. Welcome to SMC!

[Frederick Skelly]

I've ordered an LN 1/2" and an Ashley Iles 5/8". I'll let you know what I think. Should be fun to horse around with. Thanks to everyone for their advice.

In the meantime, cut a few more dovetails with my cheapo chisels after dinner with Mom. Up to 75 pairs now. The usually fit right off the saw and look presentable enough.

Fred

[Nicholas Lawrence]

If LN offered their chisels in O1 I probably would not have looked at the Iles. My experiences with the A2 plane blades I have made me think I would not prefer that in a chisel.

Derek Cohen’s findings are interesting. I have been tempted to order a Japanese chisel and try it, but the fact that they are closer to Blue Spruce prices then anything else places them realistically out of the range of what I am going to spend on a hobby, that unfortunately I have less and less time to enjoy.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Thanks everyone. All good info.




Hi Ken, Nick,
The Best Things and Tools for Working Wood both sell a set of 6 for about $200. What is it you like best about them? The doggone price is really hard to beat if these are truly good tools.

Fred

You don't need to buy a complete set from either of those vendors, plus you got to tailor the chisel style to what you are going to use it for. For me, for dovetailing, I have a liking for the AI roundback chisels. Perfect for close up paring and sneaking up to a line. But these are not chisels for general bench work!

[Warren Mickley]

Derek Cohen has, what I think to be, a well constructed comparison of different chisel steels on his website inthewoodshop.com http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/ChiselBladeTesting-5Steels.html

That being said he doesn't really cover a 'cheap' option. Still, worth a read.

Years ago when this was published I tried to duplicate the test with my own chisels. My cast steel chisels outperformed all of the chisels in Deerk's field by a wide margin. I do think technique plays some role in test results.

[Matt Lau]

Define cheap.

Prior to my "Stan" chisels, I got some beaters off E-bay. Since I can't read Japanese, I don't know the makers/steel/etc.
However, they sharpen easily, take a great edge, and hold it well.

I'd encourage you to try getting a few

[lowell holmes]

I had one Japanese chisel. I don't know what I did with it.
I have a leather chisel roll full of Lie Nielsen chisels and I know exactly where they are.
OBTW, sharpen easily on a diamond hone that stays our on the bench. I keep them
scalpel sharp.

[Frederick Skelly]

Define cheap.

Thanks for the tip Matt.

Cheap (for me) are the Marples and Aldi sets I mentioned in the start of the thread. But you could probably stretch the definition to be "brand chisels you pay $10 or less a piece for." YMMV of course.

[Frederick Skelly]

You don't need to buy a complete set from either of those vendors, plus you got to tailor the chisel style to what you are going to use it for. For me, for dovetailing, I have a liking for the AI roundback chisels. Perfect for close up paring and sneaking up to a line. But these are not chisels for general bench work!

Thanks Tony!

[John C Cox]

Thanks for the tip Matt.

Cheap (for me) are the Marples and Aldi sets I mentioned in the start of the thread. But you could probably stretch the definition to be "brand chisels you pay $10 or less a piece for." YMMV of course.

Fred,
If you poke around the old ad copy floating around on "The Internet" - for a while both Aldi and Marples chisels called out nominally "the same" alloy. That has since been pulled down - probably too specific for the sourcing types out there.... While perhaps you may ultimately get a similar amount of work out of both before they won't cut - the Marples receives a much better heat treatment in my book and retains the sharp, smooth cutting edge longer during the cycle... After using both head to head - I prefer the feel of the Marples - it just cuts more smoothly.....

You wondered why I had so many 1" chisels.... Because I wanted to test them out to see how they worked in my hands.... There is something to getting them in your hands and feeling how they work in real life....

[steven c newman]

What I use all the time...
385868
YMMV, of course....

[Jim Koepke]

You wondered why I had so many 1" chisels.... Because I wanted to test them out to see how they worked in my hands.... There is something to getting them in your hands and feeling how they work in real life....

+1000 on that!

jtk

[Frederick Skelly]

Fred,
If you poke around the old ad copy floating around on "The Internet" - for a while both Aldi and Marples chisels called out nominally "the same" alloy. That has since been pulled down - probably too specific for the sourcing types out there.... While perhaps you may ultimately get a similar amount of work out of both before they won't cut - the Marples receives a much better heat treatment in my book and retains the sharp, smooth cutting edge longer during the cycle... After using both head to head - I prefer the feel of the Marples - it just cuts more smoothly.....

You wondered why I had so many 1" chisels.... Because I wanted to test them out to see how they worked in my hands.... There is something to getting them in your hands and feeling how they work in real life....

Understand completely John. Thanks. I agree the edge doesn't last as long on the Aldis, but figured that was due to my 22* bevel. What you said makes sense to me.

I enjoyed that pic you posted! Agree I need to put hands-on too. With luck, I'll have my two samples for the weekend and see for myself!

Fred

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Let us know what you think please.

[Frederick Skelly]

Let us know what you think please.

I sure will Nick!

[Matt Lau]

Thanks for the tip Matt.

Cheap (for me) are the Marples and Aldi sets I mentioned in the start of the thread. But you could probably stretch the definition to be "brand chisels you pay $10 or less a piece for." YMMV of course.

I'd recommend upping your budget to $5 or less :D

Seriously, it sometimes confuses me why in Japan they don't value the used tools as much as we do.
You may find a decent chisel in a lot for $5 on ebay in Japan (a lot of 5 or 10 tools, with 5-8 decent chisels).
Meanwhile, a cruddy worn to it's last legs Marples paring chisel or Berg will have an asking price of $30-50. Go figure.

[John C Cox]

Matt,

We can't read the Japanese maker's marks and are mostly unfamiliar with what's what...

And so most of us can't tell a rusty new production Grizzly Chinese knockoff of a Japanese chisel from that of a real 1st quality Japanese smith...

It's kinda like the Ebay grab bag lots of "vintage chisels" and when you look close - you can see there are 4 or 6 rusty Aldi and Harbor Freight as well as a couple rusty Ace Hardware chisels mixed in.. It's like they pull them out of the package and spray them down with salt water to make sure they get a little "rust patina" on them so they don't look new as a way to get a couple more units in the "grab bag lot"...

[Vincent Tai]

John,
Matt stated he couldn't read the Makers mark either (he can't read Japanese). Luckily buying from Japan means theres less of a chance a Grizzly chisel infiltrated (I think). Speaking of Grizzly J chisels, they're made in Japan the Grizzly website states. Never even thought of the possibility of infiltration, interesting point though. Thing is the Grizzly ones have fat handles that aren't properly shaped even in the ferrule area, strange ferrules That blend into the neck, and no "ears' or mimi. They are made out of a pre laminated steel stock (I forget the name for it; starts with R ends with an ai I think) so the factory cannot fold the carbon steel sides up and into the chisel body to form the nice strengthening ears. You can see these ears when looking at the bevel, Grizzly's just have a line across like a Japanese plane blade. Funny enough Grizzly and every tool retailer seem to avoid getting a shot of the chisel front that would reveal this detail. Only from pictures taken by actual users did I notice this. Point is you can spot a Grizzly easily enough. They might stick out more then your Aldi or Harbour Freight that have been vintaged. Personally I wouldn't go for anything thats rusty enough to disguise things if you're worried about a scam. There's lots of clues like lamination line, handle material and setup, condition, ferrule alignment, straightness, what the back looks like, is the neck centred. Wilbur Pan on his Giant Cypress blog did a post a few months back where he got an old J chisel for 20$ and showed the before and after, a good quick read. Hope that helps.

Vincent

[Tony Zaffuto]

John,
Matt stated he couldn't read the Makers mark either (he can't read Japanese). Luckily buying from Japan means theres less of a chance a Grizzly chisel infiltrated (I think). Speaking of Grizzly J chisels, they're made in Japan the Grizzly website states. Never even thought of the possibility of infiltration, interesting point though. Thing is the Grizzly ones have fat handles that aren't properly shaped even in the ferrule area, strange ferrules That blend into the neck, and no "ears' or mimi. They are made out of a pre laminated steel stock (I forget the name for it; starts with R ends with an ai I think) so the factory cannot fold the carbon steel sides up and into the chisel body to form the nice strengthening ears. You can see these ears when looking at the bevel, Grizzly's just have a line across like a Japanese plane blade. Funny enough Grizzly and every tool retailer seem to avoid getting a shot of the chisel front that would reveal this detail. Only from pictures taken by actual users did I notice this. Point is you can spot a Grizzly easily enough. They might stick out more then your Aldi or Harbour Freight that have been vintaged. Personally I wouldn't go for anything thats rusty enough to disguise things if you're worried about a scam. There's lots of clues like lamination line, handle material and setup, condition, ferrule alignment, straightness, what the back looks like, is the neck centred. Wilbur Pan on his Giant Cypress blog did a post a few months back where he got an old J chisel for 20$ and showed the before and after, a good quick read. Hope that helps.

Vincent

I tried a (one) Grizzly Japanese chisel several years ago and I did not care for it. Another was one Narex Japanese style chisel, and again, same thing. I bought a set of three Japanese chisels from Amazon several months ago-cost about $25 each or so. These are bench chisels and don't feel too bad at all. Had to set the hoops and took a bit of work (for hollow back Japanese chisels) to get the backs flat, but these are not just Japanese "styled". I haven't used them enough to offer any opinion. The Grizzly was given away. The Narex lays around somewhere (maybe near some paint cans!). The Amazon chisels will be tried.

[michael langman]

I just chopped 8- 3/4" wide,x 3" long mortices 3 1/2" through pressure treated yellow pine 4x4's using Aldis chisels for the first time. There were plenty of large knots, and the chisels impressed me, surprisingly.
I sharpened the chisels with a Norton coarse,fine bench stone and then hard white Arkansas and then a translucent Arkansas followed with the new strop I made.
I predrilled the holes with a 5/8" drill.
None of my edges rolled and they completed the job without touching up the chisels. I was not gentle either although I did use 12 oz. rubber mallet from harbor freight for a striking tool.
Also I left the primary angle at 25* as it came from the store.
The cutting edges lost their keenness and the end grain on the mortices did not slice as easily as when I started, but the still cut good enough to complete the job.