Not in my Home!!!

[Jim Koepke]

These home helpers have not appealed to me, now they seem even more treacherous:


Over the past two years, researchers in China and the United States have begun demonstrating that they can send hidden commands that are undetectable to the human ear to Apple’s Siri, Amazon’s Alexa and Google’s Assistant. Inside university labs, the researchers have been able to secretly activate the artificial intelligence systems on smartphones and smart speakers, making them dial phone numbers or open websites. In the wrong hands, the technology could be used to unlock doors, wire money or buy stuff online — simply with music playing over the radio.

A group of students from University of California, Berkeley and Georgetown University showed in 2016 that they could hide commands in white noise played over loudspeakers and through YouTube videos to get smart devices to turn on airplane mode or open a website.

This month, some of those Berkeley researchers published a research paper that went further, saying they could embed commands directly into recordings of music or spoken text. So while a human listener hears someone talking or an orchestra playing, Amazon’s Echo speaker might hear an instruction to add something to your shopping list.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/10/technology/alexa-siri-hidden-command-audio-attacks.html?action=click&module=Ribbon&pgtype=Article

[Ken Fitzgerald]

+2

I don't want "Smart" switches, outlets, appliances or a stranger like Siri, Alexa or an Assistant doing anything for me, Thank You!

They will never make a "Smart device" smart enough to prevent hacking.

[Mel Fulks]

Interesting,but I wouldn't worry about it. Once everybody has one ....and there is no one to impress, they "too ,will pass".
I've had several demonstrated to me recently by friends. Everybody wants to be in show business.

[George Bokros]

I want none of types of devices in my house nor do I want a thermostat, door locks, garage door opener or my refrigerator on my network so it could be hacked. That is just asking for trouble. I don't even have a camera on my laptop.

[Wayne Lomman]

It's the next step in social engineering, the earlier foundations of which are already in place. Having just returned from a business trip to Sydney, I was rudely reminded just how rigidly controlled city life is. Systems like this are to control your daily behaviour, not just sell you crap you don't really want. Expect it to be rolled out in 3 years. Cheers

[Carlos Alvarez]

LOL, on another forum I was just having a conversation about paranoia and fear like this. It must suck to live that way. I'd rather enjoy life and its conveniences rather than worrying about something that doesn't actually happen. This morning our wi-fi thermostat alerted me to the fact that our downstairs AC unit was failing. Without that it may have caused more damage, and I certainly would not have been as quick to make the service appointment for same-day service. They have saved us a lot in electricity cost also. There's obviously the convenience of waking up too warm and clicking it down a degree without getting up.

The garage/shop doors being online is also so useful. From just convenience, to security. I get alerted if they are open. And a special alert if they are left open after 9pm. I can know they are closed from anywhere in the world. I also can open them for deliveries and home services when we are traveling.

Etc.

This is all more secure than old-style locks, of course.

[Carlos Alvarez]

I should add that Alexa/Google devices have no place in our home; they simply don't do anything useful. I have "hey Siri" turned off on the phone, but use it on my Watch. It only activates if you specifically raise the Watch to your face.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Carlos,

Don't mistake caution for fear. I have no desire to have something like Siri or Alexa. I have no desire to have a smart device controlling any of our appliances. We have a carport and while my shop has a garage door, it's manual, gets opened maybe once a year and I have some additional locks on it. I don't want it to have an opener and it's nothing caused by fear.

I'll say it again...anything Smart can be hacked.

I even turn off our wireless router when we are out of town.

[Carlos Alvarez]

Anything can be hacked.

[Wayne Lomman]

Anything can be hacked and this is OK? Not until I'm wearing a wooden overcoat. Like Ken said, do not mistake caution for fear. As regards social engineering, which is what we are actually talking about, have a read of this (its from ABC Australia, unrelated to any other ABC). Cheers

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-31/chinas-social-credit-system-punishes-untrustworthy-citizens/9596204

[Mark Blatter]

Anything can be hacked and this is OK? Not until I'm wearing a wooden overcoat. Like Ken said, do not mistake caution for fear. As regards social engineering, which is what we are actually talking about, have a read of this (its from ABC Australia, unrelated to any other ABC). Cheers

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-31/chinas-social-credit-system-punishes-untrustworthy-citizens/9596204

Well, that is an interesting, and terrifying article Wayne. They have taken 1984 and Big Brother to the next step.

As for all the 'smart' devices, I don't own any of them. I can see how a few of the dumber smart devices would be handy. I worked in cash handling for 20 years and have a great deal experience with security, video and access control systems. I promise you that none of these in today's world are 'smart' in that they are are connected to the internet. I view my own home as more important (to me) than a Brink's vault. There are video systems that are internet based, but I am not aware of any security systems that can accessed over the internet.

Perhaps my foil hat is a little too tight, but so much of the touted advantages are of little interest to me. And I have very limited trust in my fellow man...or woman. Too many scams and scam artists just looking for the easy mark, the easy way in. And if you think the NSA and all the other three letter agencies, are not interested in monitoring everything possible, then you might want to read up and reconsider. There is a reason why the NSA has the largest data storage facility in the world about 45 miles south of where I live.

Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get you. Time to go. The voices in my head are telling me to say goodnight.

[Carlos Alvarez]

do not mistake caution for fear

That's a good point. Pretty much everything in this thread is unfounded fear. I understand that most people don't know how this stuff works, but that's no reason to jump right into assuming the worst and being paranoid.

The AC is fixed, thanks smart thermostat. $107 instead of much more if it didn't get fixed promptly.

[Mike Cutler]

All technology has it's good points and bad. It depends on how it's used, and or abused, but to dispel it completely is not good either. It has it's place.
To the adult "physically and mentally" challenged, and aged parents, these devices can be very beneficial and enhance their quality of life. I have a co worker whose parents are quite a bit older. These smart devices have meant that they are able to stay in their own home, instead of a facility, as he and siblings can monitor them through the day. Yes, it's kind of like "spying" on your parents, but it's pretty nice to know that if they forget to turn off the stove, or coffee pot, or even turn up the heat in the winter time, he can do it from his phone. They can call him for help from any room in the house with either Alexa, or Siri.
The math says that the odds of someone "hacking" your home smart devices is pretty remote. In a city or a more urban area where houses are clustered together more closely, it would be easier. In a rural environment, not so easy and there isn't much in it for someone. To a large extent though, you control the gateway. The harder you make it for someone, the less attractive it will be, an they'll move on to an easier target. Just like any home security system or strategy. The security settings are "your fence". You'll never build a fence that someone can't get over, you just want to make it too much of a hassle to deal with for the other 99.9999%
In the 60's and 70's everyone thought that the "guvment " would be targeting us with subliminal messages through the TV to control us. the tech was there, but what is in for them?
When I got out of the Navy a zillion years ago, I held two top secret clearances. I was given a list of countries I could never visit, and told that they would be monitoring me from time to time. I wasn't being paranoid. They told me they would do it, and I believed them. It didn't stop me from getting on with my life.
I just don't worry too much about someone hacking my smart TV. Maybe I'm to cavalier.

Now, when they develop a smart device that cleans the cat litter box, I'm first in line for that thing.:cool:

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Now, when they develop a smart device that cleans the cat litter box, I'm first in line for that thing.:cool:

There is a "Robo Litter Box" advertised on television.:D

[Tom Stenzel]

I want none of types of devices in my house nor do I want a thermostat, door locks, garage door opener or my refrigerator on my network so it could be hacked. That is just asking for trouble. I don't even have a camera on my laptop.

My laptop has a camera and a microphone like most nowadays. I disabled both in Device Manager (win 8.1). The microphone still can be accessed. So when you say no, that means maybe.
-Tom

[Jim Koepke]

There is a "Robo Litter Box" advertised on television.:D

We had one, it worked for about a week.

Save money, take it to the garbage can, dump, refill, be done.

jtk

[Carlos Alvarez]

Now, when they develop a smart device that cleans the cat litter box, I'm first in line for that thing.:cool:

Not only does one exist, there are several.

The wife experimented with some active RFID devices and Arduinos to make dog feeding systems that would only feed the correct dog. We had one that would over-eat and take food from the other when we were gone for a couple days. It worked alright, but we didn't think it was marketable. Now you can just buy them.

[Jim Koepke]

For Kitty Litter Boxes, here is a review page:

https://www.mypetneedsthat.com/best-self-cleaning-litter-boxes/

From a quick read, none of these actually empty themselves and carry the waste out to the curb.

To be honest, ours was more of a first generation design and was subject to the cleaning mechanism getting clogged.

If the business of cat was always uniform, these things would have been perfected long ago.

When one of these clogs, you likely do not want to be the one to unclog it.

A long time ago it occurred to me it is less hassle to let the wife go ahead and get something she thinks is "God's gift" than to put up with the fall out from trying to explain why it isn't going to work.

Then the next time something that comes along appealing to me, it is easier to get her to let me have my way.

jtk

[Carlos Alvarez]

But what if the russian hackers steal your cat poop!!! Anything can be hacked!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

But what if the russian hackers steal your cat poop!!! Anything can be hacked!

I'm sure the Russians are smart enough and the Robo Litter Box isn't smart enough.....I don't think it would be a problem!

[Edwin Santos]

Hi,
The question of caution vs. fear is interesting. Here's a quote that takes one spin on it:

“Caution is what causes you to look both ways before crossing the street. Fear is what keeps you frozen on the curb forever. You know the difference. You can feel it. If you’re ‘stuck’ right now, you’re probably into fear. Get out of there. You’ve already looked both ways. Now cross the street for heaven’s sake. The cars have long since gone. The coast is clear. Your only obstacle now is your own mind.”

Often the guy frozen on the curb also thinks he's the only smart one and everyone else crossing that street is a reckless fool.
Edwin

[Mike Cutler]

For Kitty Litter Boxes,

From a quick read, none of these actually empty themselves and carry the waste out to the curb.

To be honest, ours was more of a first generation design and was subject to the cleaning mechanism getting clogged.

If the business of cat was always uniform, these things would have been perfected long ago.

When one of these clogs, you likely do not want to be the one to unclog it.

jtk

Okay, I'll wait. Our cats are not uniform at all in the litter box. One was so challenged we had to finally buy a concrete mixing tub for litter box, because he couldn't get it all in one place. Some days it looks like a bunch of lumberjacks used it, after a chili festival the night before.

If the Russian hackers want to hack my kitty litter for the poop, I'll give them the device address.:D

[Jim Koepke]

If the Russian hackers want to hack my kitty litter for the poop, I'll give them the device address.

The hacking isn't for the by product, it if for the connectivity activity. Smart devices can be used by nefarious types for not so fair-eous purposes.

jtk

[Mark Blatter]

Since this thread started, I have two articles about 'smart' devices. Here is a link to one of them.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/10/technology/alexa-siri-hidden-command-audio-attacks.html

You can still say "Why would anyone want to access your info/phone/speaker?" but the answer is simple. To order stuff and send it to a different location. To steal your banking info and money. To get your private info and contacts. If nothing else to lock up your phone with a new code, then hold you hostage requiring a payment of $500 to get the code.

Nah, none of that would ever happer. I am just being paranoid.

[Mike Cutler]

The hacking isn't for the by product, it if for the connectivity activity. Smart devices can be used by nefarious types for not so fair-eous purposes.

jtk

Jim
They can be and there is no dispute there.
A long time ago my neighbors, whom are not computer savvy, asked me how hard it was for someone to get into their computer. I told them to give me 10 minutes.
I went upstairs, found their router because our houses are close enough together. Typed in the default Admin password for their brand of router, and locked them out of their network. I turned on file sharing and transferred their whole computer to a spare hard drive I had. There was no real password protection for the computer, which happened to be on, so I could see the whole thing. It actually could still be hacked with one of the many Microsoft admin passwords available on the internet. I also showed them how easy it would be for their kids to get to porn, which blew their mind,and set up a admin tracker for computer activity so they could monitor which chatrooms their kids were in.
I fixed everything for them that day. Set up security, had them change all of their passwords. Set different levels of access, and controls, etc.
A co workers son thought it was great fun to hack the networks along his school bus route. He was pretty successful too, and he was in elementary school at the time. It's not hard because most people just don't want to take a weekend to learn about computer security.

It used to be, years ago, that primarily hackers were interested in your available storage and RAM so they could add your machine, unnoticed by you , to a network to traffic in illegal content. It's expanded a lot from those days. With the advent of smart phones and every other smart device, having a common "hub" makes for an attractive single access target.
It's still like a "physical fence" around your yard. You'll never be able to stop everyone from entering your "digital yard". You just want to make the next guy look like an easier target.

PS
I'll still give them network address for the kitty litter. Heck, I'll even throw in some ESPN and HBO access for them.;)

[Bob Grier]

Wouldn't it be easy for someone to just grab your garbage bag to find out personal info or maybe just use a pipe wrench on your back door handle, or maybe tap out a window when you aren't home to access personal information or even steal something? Security systems on a business or home can offer some protection but not much use in keeping someone out. It is much easier for most people to just open your door or bust a window than it is to figure out how to hack into your network. There are some people who do know how to hack but many more people who know how to get in your house or car.

Smart things can save money (sprinkler system that monitors weather forecast and current conditions to adjust watering), thermostats that automatically adjust, etc. and then there is the convenience that some of these systems offer. It is nice to be able to check on your home while away on vacation, be notified if it is approached or opened, heating is malfunctioning, lights are turning on and off in the evening, etc.

I put off buying a mobile phone for many years due to the cost and my perception that I didn't need one. I ignored the pleadings of my children who wanted to buy one for me. They said it was inconvenient for them to get a hold of me when they had to leave a message and wait for me to get home to call them back. The day came that I decided to travel and then I bought a cell phone. I never went back to a land line. Then the same thing happened to me with the smart phone. I put it off due to cost and perceived notion that I didn't need one. Then the day came when I decided to try one. I bought a used Samsung and now I will never go back. A few months ago I actually bought a new smart phone instead of a used one. It just seems worth it to me now. I didn't buy the most expensive.

[Pat Barry]

Maybe not IN your home, but IS your nee home.
See this article
http://money.cnn.com/2018/05/09/technology/amazon-alexa-lennar-home/index.html

The type of technology many are so afraid of IS the future. Best figure out how to use it.

[Tom Stenzel]

Hi,
The question of caution vs. fear is interesting. Here's a quote that takes one spin on it:

“Caution is what causes you to look both ways before crossing the street. Fear is what keeps you frozen on the curb forever. You know the difference. You can feel it. If you’re ‘stuck’ right now, you’re probably into fear. Get out of there. You’ve already looked both ways. Now cross the street for heaven’s sake. The cars have long since gone. The coast is clear. Your only obstacle now is your own mind.”

Often the guy frozen on the curb also thinks he's the only smart one and everyone else crossing that street is a reckless fool.
Edwin

That's only true if I wanted to cross the street. There needs to be something on the other side of the street I'm interested in. If I'm being pushed across a street I didn't want to cross don't be shocked I'm not all that happy about it.

-Tom

[Jim Koepke]

Wouldn't it be easy for someone to just grab your garbage bag to find out personal info or maybe just use a pipe wrench on your back door handle, or maybe tap out a window when you aren't home to access personal information or even steal something?

Why bother if they can sit on their sofa with a cold beer and a pizza while they charge the TV they really want to your credit account?

They may have even ordered a delivered pizza through your fancy electronic helper.

jtk

[Carlos Alvarez]

Hi,
The question of caution vs. fear is interesting. Here's a quote that takes one spin on it:

“Caution is what causes you to look both ways before crossing the street. Fear is what keeps you frozen on the curb forever. You know the difference. You can feel it. If you’re ‘stuck’ right now, you’re probably into fear. Get out of there. You’ve already looked both ways. Now cross the street for heaven’s sake. The cars have long since gone. The coast is clear. Your only obstacle now is your own mind.”

Often the guy frozen on the curb also thinks he's the only smart one and everyone else crossing that street is a reckless fool.
Edwin

That's a great way to put it. Goes along with the people my friend calls "internet roadkill" who just assume crazy things about technology.

[Edwin Santos]

That's only true if I wanted to cross the street. There needs to be something on the other side of the street I'm interested in. If I'm being pushed across a street I didn't want to cross don't be shocked I'm not all that happy about it.

-Tom

I took the example to assume there is something on the other side of the street that would be valuable to you otherwise the whole example makes no sense.

Another fear vs. caution example I once heard goes something like this: Fear is when the person is totally (or predominantly) focused on pain avoidance. Caution would be where the person is equally focused on risks and benefits and they weigh them against each other in their analysis of the situation.
Using this logic, in the street example, the person in fear is so consumed with not getting hurt, the benefits of crossing the street are no longer visible to them (or maybe they convince themselves that those benefits don't exist).
Sometimes I also think of the person who might be so mistrustful of banks and financial markets that they stash their savings in cash under their mattress, without regard for the long term opportunity cost of foregoing interest, growth, or devaluing effects of inflation.

So relating it back to the original post, technology offers the ability for a person to improve their life in countless ways, albeit with some risks. There are those that will forego all or most of the benefits to avoid all or most of the risks. Admittedly it's a balancing act and a personal decision. I'm not trying to imply anyone is right or wrong. But I do find the psychology around the subject of technology to be really interesting.
Edwin

[Carlos Alvarez]

I took the example to assume there is something on the other side of the street that would be valuable to you otherwise the whole example makes no sense.

Another fear vs. caution example I once heard goes something like this: Fear is when the person is totally (or predominantly) focused on pain avoidance. Caution would be where the person is equally focused on risks and benefits and they weigh them against each other in their analysis of the situation.
Using this logic, in the street example, the person in fear is so consumed with not getting hurt, the benefits of crossing the street are no longer visible to them (or maybe they convince themselves that those benefits don't exist).
Sometimes I also think of the person who might be so mistrustful of banks and financial markets that they stash their savings in cash under their mattress, without regard for the long term opportunity cost of foregoing interest, growth, or devaluing effects of inflation.

So relating it back to the original post, technology offers the ability for a person to improve their life in countless ways, albeit with some risks. There are those that will forego all or most of the benefits to avoid all or most of the risks. Admittedly it's a balancing act and a personal decision. I'm not trying to imply anyone is right or wrong. But I do find the psychology around the subject of technology to be really interesting.
Edwin

FUD: Fear, uncertainty, doubt

As a species we would be far ahead of where we are now if it didn't rule most people. And yes, unfortunately pain avoidance at almost any cost usually beats logic and seeking advancement. The risks with most IoT devices and services is near-zero, but people act as if you're basically leaving all the doors and windows open. But then think nothing of the fact that the common door locks and garage doors are easily "hacked" physically.

[Mark Blatter]

FUD: Fear, uncertainty, doubt

As a species we would be far ahead of where we are now if it didn't rule most people. And yes, unfortunately pain avoidance at almost any cost usually beats logic and seeking advancement. The risks with most IoT devices and services is near-zero, but people act as if you're basically leaving all the doors and windows open. But then think nothing of the fact that the common door locks and garage doors are easily "hacked" physically.

Of course my doors and windows can be physically hacked, or broken into. I can be robbed at gun point, I can be shot. That doesn't mean I don't go out, it also doesn't mean I leave my doors / windows unlocked so there is no deterrent.

I use computers, cell phones, all sorts of tech on a daily basis. I use passwords on my systems to provide the best protection I reasonably can provide. For me, personally, there is little that is attractive about Alexa, Siri and all the rest. When the day comes that I cannot get off my behind and type my needs, I will likely just sit on the floor and die.

I didn't start texting until I had a reason to do so, for work. Today I text quite often, as a good way to communicate with my wife and kids. It isn't about fear of tech that drives me, it about seeing no need to have these items in my home. When / if the time comes that I see the need, I will get one.

A good example of the decisions I make is credit vs debit cards. I do not have a debit card and never will. My son who has one and uses it all the time, has had his account tapped 3 - 4 times. He just shakes it off and calls the bank, then they do their thing and he gets reimbursed. Me, I would rather not have funds taken directly from my bank accounts, plus I make more money off my credit cards. Many factors come into play in making decisions, seldom are they driven by fear. I see all of the AI stuff and internet linked things like thermostats, garage doors, etc. as little reward and more risk. Call me an old fuddy, but I have my thermostat set and it runs. I don't need to adjust it when I am not at the house.

[Chris Parks]

Texting is a good technology, I have never sent one but any deaf person can now use a phone. I had a deaf cousin and I regret he did not live long enough to see texting as his life would have been so much better.

[Curt Harms]

I should add that Alexa/Google devices have no place in our home; they simply don't do anything useful. I have "hey Siri" turned off on the phone, but use it on my Watch. It only activates if you specifically raise the Watch to your face.

For someone to install a surveillance device legally would require a court order. If you install it yourself that inconvenience is removed. It's a risk/benefit analysis for everone.

[Carlos Alvarez]

I find it amazing that it needs to be said, but "I don't find these things useful" is very different from "I won't have this in my house because (list of unfounded fears)."

There's also the matter of "need." Sure, nobody NEEDS a smart thermostat. Just like nobody needs a microwave, a TV, a radio, or really most of the things in your house. A toaster isn't necessary; it just makes a task easier and more convenient. Same as any smart tech device. Nobody needs either. But choosing to leverage one technology while acting a proud Luddite to another is silly. The amish would laugh at your need for a toaster, microwave, and TV.

[Edwin Santos]

Has anyone reading this thread ever been hacked through an IoT device (Alexa, Echo, thermostat, smart switch, smart door lock, TV, etc)? Or anyone you personally know?

I'm not talking about a compromised credit card or identity theft, I'm just talking about hacking of smart devices.

I ask because I truly wonder whether it's more of a theoretical risk than a real one. I have yet to find a person who's been hacked through one of these devices. I know several people whose homes have been broken into or cars stolen but no victims yet of smart device hacking. If you or someone you know has been a victim, please share.

Edwin

[Carlos Alvarez]

I work in IT, mostly routing, switching and related security. It's REALLY rare to even hear of random devices being hacked at all, much less then used against the owner. You are more likely to die in your bathtub today. What does happen is that the mainstream media hypes something up and fearful people run with it as it were reality. They will find one guy who had one unsecured device get hacked, then trot that out as the norm with no statistics and no details. I've done several interviews with a couple of local stations on IT topics and hacking; they always try to get me to make it sound worse than it is. Nope, I want to educate people on reality, not create fear.

Oh yeah, and debit cars...ugh, I preach this all the time. From a security aspect, a debit card is a huge, dumb risk. I have heard of so many issues, both directly from friends and professionally. Aside from that, they don't generally have any sort of rewards or kickbacks. These days you should be taking a kickback from EVERY purchase by choosing the right credit cards. The appliances and high end blinds in my home were all "free" from points. I just cashed in a bunch of Amazon rewards for some Incra and Kreg goodies for the shop. We get several thousand dollars in kickbacks every year from various cards.

[Jim Koepke]

I find it amazing that it needs to be said, but "I don't find these things useful" is very different from "I won't have this in my house because (list of unfounded fears)."

There's also the matter of "need." Sure, nobody NEEDS a smart thermostat. Just like nobody needs a microwave, a TV, a radio, or really most of the things in your house. A toaster isn't necessary; it just makes a task easier and more convenient. Same as any smart tech device. Nobody needs either. But choosing to leverage one technology while acting a proud Luddite to another is silly. The amish would laugh at your need for a toaster, microwave, and TV.

Carlos, my original post started with these devices not appealing to me:


These home helpers have not appealed to me, now they seem even more treacherous:

It would be nice to have a device in the living room to start the car for me. But then we would have to get a new car that would connect to the device.

Maybe something that could take down a shopping list and put it in my cell phone. Then we would have to get cell phones.

At times one of the modern 'smart phones' seems like it would be useful. The problem is we do not have service where we live. It is about a mile from the home where we can get service good enough to make a call. We usually do not get off of our property more than a couple times a week. We canceled our cell phones. We were paying ~$60+ a month for very little use. We are not luddites, we are practical.

If a reason arises to change my perception of how useful one of these devices can actually be, then it is likely my lack of enthusiasm for them will also change.

jtk

[Carlos Alvarez]

So you don't find devices that don't work to be useful? I'm shocked. Obviously you know you're different from most in that, right? I'm in a very marginal coverage area myself, but not without coverage.

I start my car with my phone or watch. I also don't need a box in the living room to do it for me.

[Jim Koepke]

We get several thousand dollars in kickbacks every year from various cards.

Remember the old adage, "there is no such thing as a free lunch."

The kickbacks on credit cards come not only from the fees imposed on vendors who accept the various cards, they are also from the interest payed by those who do not pay down their balance every month. Vendors have their prices set to include credit card 'processing fees.' My experience in 'negotiating prices' is most successful when mentioning my payment will be in cash or by check. One of the businesses we frequent offers a 5% discount for payment by cash or check. Many gas stations give up to 10¢ a gallon discount for cash. When one thinks about it, with a 30 gallon tank being pretty big for most cars, that is only $3 saved. Even if it is only $1 for a smaller car taking 10 gallons, it adds up. When it is $20 or $30 knocked off the purchase of a few items in a local business, it is a good feeling.

To me, the best kickback is from not using the plastic. Of course, if there is no discount for cash, then save the cash and use the card.

Currently we are not carrying any debt and we plan on staying that way for a while.

jtk

[Pat Barry]

Alexa plays CNN for my wife all day long. She loves it.

[Jim Koepke]

So you don't find devices that don't work to be useful? I'm shocked. Obviously you know you're different from most in that, right? I'm in a very marginal coverage area myself, but not without coverage.

Surely you did not mean this to come out as it could be construed:

It surprises me to learn that most find devices that don't work to be useful. :eek: For that alone, it makes me proud to be different from the masses.

My situation is pretty much the same as everyone in my neighborhood and for miles around. Many in this area have landlines without hardwired phones in order to set up a WiFi network for using their cell phones. We also have landlines for high speed DSL internet service.

jtk

[Carlos Alvarez]

Alexa plays CNN


Finally, the first post actually pointing out why these devices are horrible and should be kept out of your home.

[Carlos Alvarez]

Surely you did not mean this to come out as it could be construed:

It surprises me to learn that most find devices that don't work to be useful. :eek: For that alone, it makes me proud to be different from the masses.

My situation is pretty much the same as everyone in my neighborhood and for miles around. Many in this area have landlines without hardwired phones in order to set up a WiFi network for using their cell phones. We also have landlines for high speed DSL internet service.

jtk

I realize my grammar in that post, sorry. My point was that you are one of a very small number of people who can't use these, because you live in a place where they don't work. That's like saying shoes aren't useful if you have no feet.

[Jim Koepke]

Finally, the first post actually pointing out why these devices are horrible and should be kept out of your home.

LOL!

jtk

[Kev Williams]

Many years ago (we're talking the '70's), any perceptions of privacy I thought I had were dashed to bits all because of one 'letter to the editor'. Since that day I've done whatever I could to put myself and family at the extreme fringes of 'the grid'. Being a small business owner doesn't help, I can easily be found on Google these days. However, I'm still not about to simply hand over the keys to my house to any crackpot hacker, 'intelligence', Apple or Microsoft without a fight. The only 'smart' thing I own is computers, none with an OS newer than win7, and I'm THEIR boss, not the other way 'round. Everything I own that THINKS its smart- my Playstation, Wii, the TV's, all are divorced from the www. I have a 10 year old flip phone that I use maybe 4 times a month. I can start my own car, and drive it myself too. I can program my own thermostat. I can play my own music. I write down notes to myself on my hand, sometimes on paper. I don't text, I write email or <gasp> just use the phone. And usually (I'm still working towards 'always'), everything I do 'by wire', can't be traced back to me. (go ahead, tell me my IP address ;)) My product searches, shopping habits, phone calls, the websites I visit, my recreational activities, emails I read & write, are all MY business and no one else's, and certainly NOT for Google to sell or anyone else to steal.

So yeah, not in MY house either! :)

[Mark Blatter]

I start my car with my phone or watch. I also don't need a box in the living room to do it for me.

Well here is another one we can disagree with. I would never remote start my car, for several reasons. First and foremost, if you are not in the car, you cannot tell if there was a coolant leak, an oil leak or other issue that can cause serious problems. Newer cars, I grant you, will mostly shut down before damage has been done, but still a possibility. Secondly, where I live, pollution is a real issue, with most of it coming from vehicles. The Wasatch Front is monitored by the EPA and many cities now have 'no idle' laws in place. All to combat a series issue that is causing a number of health issues. Finally, there is the cost. I know your car likely only runs a minute before you go out, but how often does that get stretched to two or three or more. Cost to idle isn't the same as driving, but it is more than you realize and tougher on the vehicle too.

I grew up, and lived many years where it is cold in the winter. I never saw a reason to start my car and let it idle even when it was -40.

[Jim Koepke]

I've had remote start in every vehicle since the late 90s. Wouldn't be without it.

This is one feature that does appeal to me. It would be nice to have the car warm when you get in on those cold mornings or have it cooled off on those warm afternoons.

If one is really paranoid, then remote start is good so you can make sure someone didn't plant a bomb connected to your ignition.

jtk

[Pat Barry]

This is one feature that does appeal to me. It would be nice to have the car warm when you get in on those cold mornings or have it cooled off on those warm afternoons.

If one is really paranoid, then remote start is good so you can make sure someone didn't plant a bomb connected to your ignition.

jtk

Why are you worried about bombs in your car?

[Pat Barry]

Finally, the first post actually pointing out why these devices are horrible and should be kept out of your home.
You just can't handle the truth. LOL

[Carlos Alvarez]

Why are you worried about bombs in your car?

Well, it's probably a bigger threat than the idea that someone will hack your car and steal it or whatever because you have one of the cellular connections in it.

[Carlos Alvarez]

Funny that someone got so butt-hurt that they deleted my entire post pointing out the silliness of worrying about your car sitting around idling. How sleazy.

Anyway, I let my car idle a lot longer than assumed, and it costs nothing really. Or more specifically, it's well worth it.

I'd love to know which mod has it out for me and continually attacks my posts. I said nothing that violated any rules and it was a pretty simple and to the fact post.

[Mark Blatter]

Funny that someone got so butt-hurt that they deleted my entire post pointing out the silliness of worrying about your car sitting around idling. How sleazy.

Anyway, I let my car idle a lot longer than assumed, and it costs nothing really. Or more specifically, it's well worth it.

I'd love to know which mod has it out for me and continually attacks my posts. I said nothing that violated any rules and it was a pretty simple and to the fact post.

Your post was honest and from the heart I am sure. However it was not completely accurate, in my opinion, and will leave it at that. Your are correct in that it is worth it to you, but there is a cost to idling. A cost in actual funds to you, and a cost to those around you in the form of more pollution. Perhaps in your area the pollution isn't a big deal.

[Thomas L Carpenter]

There are a lot of replies to this post and I haven't read all yet but it would be nice if those who reply also post their age or age range. I'm 72 and struggle to keep up with tech these days. Have been using computers since my Navy days in the 60s but I have to force myself to keep up so I'm looking for logical reasons in the rest of the posts.

[Carlos Alvarez]

Your post was honest and from the heart I am sure. However it was not completely accurate, in my opinion, and will leave it at that. Your are correct in that it is worth it to you, but there is a cost to idling. A cost in actual funds to you, and a cost to those around you in the form of more pollution. Perhaps in your area the pollution isn't a big deal.

Anyone who isn't driving the most fuel-efficient vehicle possible has already decided that their comfort and needs come before the environment. I only made one more small compromise in my comfort versus cost to both myself and the environment. It's no different from deciding you want a nicer car than the most bare minimum, most efficient car possible. There's no high horse available here, sorry.


There are a lot of replies to this post and I haven't read all yet but it would be nice if those who reply also post their age or age range. I'm 72 and struggle to keep up with tech these days. Have been using computers since my Navy days in the 60s but I have to force myself to keep up so I'm looking for logical reasons in the rest of the posts.

53, and I run two tech companies. I started working on TVs with my dad before I was five years old. Love it. My dad basically "dropped out" of tech beyond transistors (we made the leap from tubes together, he stopped keeping up when it became ICs bigger than a 555). I vowed I would never allow that to happen to me, as I think it was part of what led to his mental decay.

[Mark Blatter]

Anyone who isn't driving the most fuel-efficient vehicle possible has already decided that their comfort and needs come before the environment. I only made one more small compromise in my comfort versus cost to both myself and the environment. It's no different from deciding you want a nicer car than the most bare minimum, most efficient car possible. There's no high horse available here, sorry.

No, I don't drive the most fuel efficient car, but likely in the upper range. I drive a Toyota Corolla with a manual. I average about 37 mpg. Sure I would like to dive a 3/4 ton pickup, but won't pay for the gas nor the truck. Was born cheap and will die that way.

BTW, I am 57 and started using computers in college, then more in the Navy, so have been around them a long time. Actually, come to think of it, I started programing in high school using IBM punch cards. Haven't thought about that in a long time. I suppose for me I just don't find much of the new tech, like Alexa, all that much useful or wanted in my life. And yes, I don't like the idea of Amazon, Google, or any other company having the ability to listen in to my life. I don't worry that much about people hacking in, more the pervasive invasion by companies. Call me paranoid.

[Carlos Alvarez]

No, I don't drive the most fuel efficient car, but likely in the upper range. I drive a Toyota Corolla with a manual. I average about 37 mpg. Sure I would like to dive a 3/4 ton pickup, but won't pay for the gas nor the truck. Was born cheap and will die that way.

Then yeah, your horse is pretty high, and you are doing your part. I apologize for my assumption. The last time I was yelled at for idling was by a guy in a 1-ton.


I suppose for me I just don't find much of the new tech, like Alexa, all that much useful or wanted in my life. And yes, I don't like the idea of Amazon, Google, or any other company having the ability to listen in to my life. I don't worry that much about people hacking in, more the pervasive invasion by companies. Call me paranoid.

I completely respect "not useful." That's a value call. I have no respect for FUD used as an excuse or justification for being anti-tech or anti-modernization, and I want to keep the facts out there because fear has slowed down so much tech. I do find Siri on my watch extremely useful, meaning I use it dozens of times per day for both business and personal needs. But a box on the counter would only help if I'm in that room, and I use my voice control in many places, not just one room. So yeah, I just don't get it, other than being an ok BT speaker.

Apple, BTW, makes it very clear that everything you do with them is secure even from their own eyes. You bought the product, you own it and you own the data. Google, Amazon, and the others consider YOU the product, and you do not own your own data. Bit of a difference.

[Mark Blatter]

Then yeah, your horse is pretty high, and you are doing your part. I apologize for my assumption. The last time I was yelled at for idling was by a guy in a 1-ton.



I completely respect "not useful." That's a value call. I have no respect for FUD used as an excuse or justification for being anti-tech or anti-modernization, and I want to keep the facts out there because fear has slowed down so much tech. I do find Siri on my watch extremely useful, meaning I use it dozens of times per day for both business and personal needs. But a box on the counter would only help if I'm in that room, and I use my voice control in many places, not just one room. So yeah, I just don't get it, other than being an ok BT speaker.

Apple, BTW, makes it very clear that everything you do with them is secure even from their own eyes. You bought the product, you own it and you own the data. Google, Amazon, and the others consider YOU the product, and you do not own your own data. Bit of a difference.

Getting yelled at by a guy driving a 1 ton is funny.

You might recall Google's original statement about service use, I believe. They said 'Don't be evil.' Once they realized that was cutting into their profits, they changed it to a massive doc that no one will ever read. Today it is pretty much do as much evil as you want, as long as it is profitable.

I am not an Apple fan, though do have one iPhone 5 that I use for work. Mostly I use Motorola phones as they are pretty, well, cheap. They also seem to take some of the best photos.

[Jim Koepke]

Why are you worried about bombs in your car?

Please notice it says, "if one is really paranoid, then remote... ." Hopefully none of my actions have pushed someone to the point of wanting to obliterate my existence.

jtk

[Carlos Alvarez]

Please notice it says, "if one is really paranoid, then remote... ." Hopefully none of my actions have pushed someone to the point of wanting to obliterate my existence.

jtk

Yeah, I thought your post was funny, but I guess it bombed.

[Mark Bolton]

Man, This is one for the record books. I hope it stays in the archives. Some seriously wild big brother paranoia in this one. Zoikes.

[Jim Koepke]

Man, This is one for the record books. I hope it stays in the archives. Some seriously wild big brother paranoia in this one. Zoikes.

My worries are less about big brother and more about bad actors who might exploit a vulnerability in my home network.

Is there some other reason to install a gadget in my home that seems to have no current use?

jtk

[Carlos Alvarez]

Three things that are all over this thread:

"This is stupid and I can't imagine why anyone would want it."

"I've looked into this and can't find a way it would help me."

"OMG but hackers scary!!!"

Only one is rational.

[Jim Koepke]

Three things that are all over this thread:

"This is stupid and I can't imagine why anyone would want it."

"I've looked into this and can't find a way it would help me."

"OMG but hackers scary!!!"

Only one is rational.

To each their own 'thing' seems rational.

To me,
Is there some other reason to install a gadget in my home that seems to have no current use?, seems a rational reason to not spend money on something that doesn't appear to have a way to make my life any better.

That some are already working on ways to hack into it is even more reason to not jump on the latest home gadget bandwagon.

jtk

[Chris Parks]

A very good reason to utilise technology in the home....https://www.smh.com.au/technology/for-david-smart-devices-are-more-than-just-a-convenience-20180515-p4zfeh.html

[Jim Koepke]

A very good reason to utilise technology in the home....https://www.smh.com.au/technology/for-david-smart-devices-are-more-than-just-a-convenience-20180515-p4zfeh.html

Yes, there are some wonderful things technology can do.

jtk

[Edwin Santos]

To each their own 'thing' seems rational.

To me, , seems a rational reason to not spend money on something that doesn't appear to have a way to make my life any better.

That some are already working on ways to hack into it is even more reason to not jump on the latest home gadget bandwagon.

jtk

I would give it some time and continue to watch the smart home device space before deciding that they are just gadgets that hold no way to make your life better.
I remember a lot of people not that long ago who declared they didn't need a cell phone, or smart phone for that matter, because they don't talk on the phone a lot.
I once saw a documentary that talked about how the original developers of the home computer (Xerox I think) shelved the project as non-marketable because the scientists could provide no example applications to the managers other than a housewife being able to keep and file recipes on the device. This was in the 1960s.

My point - a lot of the time the applications of technology are very difficult for most people to imagine when they're looking at it through the lens of the world they live in today. A lot of things in my life today would have been preposterous to the younger version of myself not that long ago. This is why I try to stay out of the "nope not me" camp and remain in either the yes camp or in the watch and wait camp.

The interesting article that Chris linked reminds me that elderly and aging people can look to this technology to enable themselves to stay independent at home longer, maybe much longer. I think the key might be keeping an open mind and acclimating to the technology early enough so one is proficient with it before you need to depend on it.
Regarding hackers, I suppose that will always be a risk, surely diminishing over time as security continues to improve. Sometimes I wonder if a hacker who is talented enough to hack someone's smart home device has enough to gain by hacking a normal average person's home. You would think even a thief is mindful of wasting their time.
Just a bunch of rambling thoughts...
Edwin

[Bob Grier]

Something very sad happened in my life recently that reinforce why I encourage my close friends to keep their phone with them at all times.

I am in my 70's and am acutely aware of how vulnerable older people are to medical emergencies. If I suffer a medical emergency and am able to put my finger to the phone fingerprint indentation on the back of the phone to unlock it and then say "ok google" I can then say call 911 or who ever I want. If I say call "Bob", and there are two "Bob"s in the directory, it asks which one and I simply say which one. This happens much faster than dialing the number or looking it up, assuming I can see (glasses in place) and manipulate my hands enough to hit the little numbers or pick the correct person out of the directory. Of course if I just suffered a pulmonary embolism or some other situation where I have difficulty talking, the phone may not understand what I am saying and I will have to dial the number or pick the person out of a directory. That quite literally is life.

I posted earlier on this thread about my experience with changing technology. After someone quoted one of my sentences out of context to make a negative point, I almost posted an argument about how unfortunate some people are who live with a negative attitude about change. Instead of doing that I will keep it simple. Crossing the road to see what is on the other side may not be for everyone but when 1/2, 3/4, or more of the population has crossed that road and didn't look back, maybe there is something there to at least take a look. Taking a look includes making a positive effort. Of course there are reasons why changes in technology are not for everyone but there is a lot out there that does make life easier and safer. Someone commented about how they can walk to their thermostat and change the temperature implying they see no use for a smart thermostat. I should probably not get personal but this is a simple example of how someone looks for what they want to see without trying or even learning about something before they pronounce a verdict.

[Al Launier]

+2

I don't want "Smart" switches, outlets, appliances or a stranger like Siri, Alexa or an Assistant doing anything for me, Thank You!

They will never make a "Smart device" smart enough to prevent hacking.

I may be "old school", but I'm with Ken. Seems like we can't do much of anything these days without being monitored & secretly invaded.

[Pat Barry]

I may be "old school", but I'm with Ken. Seems like we can't do much of anything these days without being monitored & secretly invaded.
I find it a bit ludicrous that people can have this perspective yet willingly participate in a forum such as this with real names, email addresses, living locations, and commentary all for public dissemination, yet pretend some sort of line in the sand being drawn with "smart" devices. I hope you don't pay your bills online, or attempt to access your banks or the SSA accounts for that matter.

[Keith Outten]

On May 1st 2014 I experienced what is called the Widowmaker heart attack. I was returning to my shop from a meeting in the county and made it to the door of my workshop where I went down onto the floor just three steps inside my shop. I had my cell phone in my shirt pocket so I was able to contact my youngest daughter and told her to call 911. I beat the odds big time on that day and the only reason I am here today is because I had a cell phone in my pocket.

I am not a fan of the so called smart devices available these days other then cell phones obviously. IMO its just to early for me to consider integrating these type of devices into my home, probably because I am skeptical about how easily they might be abused. I admit that my cell phone is without a doubt the most vulnerable device in this category but the risk versus benefit ratio makes cell phones worth owning no matter what your age IMO.

A Friendly Note:
All of you young guys and gals take my words seriously. When I was in my Cardiac Rehab Program I was very surprised at how many young people were in the program right beside me and a few other oldtimers. Honestly it was very sad to see so many young people who were now burdened with many changes in their life with so many years ahead of them.

[Keith Outten]

Pat,

We don't allow access to anyone's email address here. As far as real names and locations that information is publicly available from a number of resources. Additionally if you consider the number of databases that have been hacked from very large companies and government institutions over the last few years its likely that much more sensitive information is available publicly these days than any one of us is comfortable knowing exists.

[Bill Dufour]

On May 1st 2014 I experienced what is called the Widowmaker heart attack. I was returning to my shop from a meeting in the county and made it to the door of my workshop where I went down onto the floor just three steps inside my shop. I had my cell phone in my shirt pocket so I was able to contact my youngest daughter and told her to call 911. I beat the odds big time on that day and the only reason I am here today is because I had a cell phone in my pocket.

Why did you not call 911? was it because she was on speed dial and 911 wasn't?
Bill D.

[Carlos Alvarez]

The medical emergencies made me realize that I should probably give my mom an Echo or similar. She lives alone, and while in good health, isn't exactly young. Sort of an "I've fallen and I can't get up" that is always listening and responding, but you don't have to wear a thing around your neck which you could forget to do.

A few weeks ago a friend of a friend went to the ER because his Apple Watch alerted him to unusual heart rythms and heart rate while not active. Since the Watch knows your exercise level and your heart rate as well as some of the actual pulse rhythm details, it can make those decisions. Turns out he was in a pre-arrest condition, and the Watch saved his life.

But yeah, who needs that junk?


They will never make a "Smart device" smart enough to prevent hacking.

The majority of smart devices are smart enough to prevent hacking. You can see that since, well, they are still working and unhacked. We do a lot of security work on our servers to make them smarter and prevent hacking. A real basic one is to monitor logs for too many failed connection attempts from any one IP address, and blacklist it automatically.

[Pat Barry]

Pat,

We don't allow access to anyone's email address here. As far as real names and locations that information is publicly available from a number of resources. Additionally if you consider the number of databases that have been hacked from very large companies and government institutions over the last few years its likely that much more sensitive information is available publicly these days than any one of us is comfortable knowing exists.
That is what I'm getting at. All sorts of big companies and .com sites have been hacked and personal data has been stolen. Everyone who participates here is somewhat vulnerable. Possibly, having a portal through a site such as this, provides hackers somewhat easier access for them to unlock other information in other locations, ie passwords shared between sites by users. Face it, everyone here has multiple sites they utilize and the key to getting entry to those sites are passwords. It is just common sense that exploiting a site such as SMC might be easier than Twitter or Facebook or your bank or the SSA. Obviously folks should have different passwords for other sites, particularly ones with importance, but I bet there are many here that don't do that. I'd like to hear from experts here about ways everyone can safeguard their privacy and not spout about their fears - we all have those concerns. Having concern, by itself, is unproductive.

[Keith Outten]

Bill,

My daughter was inside the house so I called her first because I didn't know if I was going to pass out or not. She was inside my shop in less then 30 seconds with her phone in her hand dialing 911.

Pat,
Securing a server has a lot to do with the services you provide. Some options that are enabled can increase your risk dramatically. Certain configurations make servers highly secure and much more difficult to invade. I don't have the expertise to go into any details, this is what my expert tells me. I have unique and extremely difficult passwords for every account I use online, this was a lesson I learned during my ten years as an Internet Provider. Any good network administrator will insist on a specific means of selecting passwords, I have always taken their advice.

[Simon MacGowen]

Funny that some of you are worried about what is in your home. What is more worrisome is what is vulnerable in the institutions which we rely on: governments, banks, utilities, healthcare etc.

The hacking tools including those stolen from NSA will get into one or more of those systems one day and it is just a matter of time that someone makes a break through in the evil way, or someone in those institutions makes a mistake that allows others to wreck our lives. You really think encryption can save us all? I am not so optimistic, but I probably won't live long enough to find out how IT may turn out to be more lethal than nuclear weapons.

Simon

[Al Launier]

I find it a bit ludicrous that people can have this perspective yet willingly participate in a forum such as this with real names, email addresses, living locations, and commentary all for public dissemination, yet pretend some sort of line in the sand being drawn with "smart" devices. I hope you don't pay your bills online, or attempt to access your banks or the SSA accounts for that matter.
I thought these sarcastic responses were prohibited on this forum. Regardless, isn't that what software security is for, both through personal purchase and that offered by forums, to inhibit or remove virus intrusions, etc?

[Jim Koepke]

The hacking tools including those stolen from NSA will get into one or more of those systems one day and it is just a matter of time that someone makes a break through in the evil way, or someone in those institutions makes a mistake that allows others to wreck our lives.

According to reliable sources this already happened through the vulnerabilities in social media.

Some will believe anything they see on TV or the internet.

jtk

[Carlos Alvarez]

I previously posted about my wifi thermostats saving me a bunch of cash when an air conditioner was failing. Well my friend who said "who the heck needs to control their thermostat from the couch" just spent almost a grand for a major repair that probably could have been avoided if he had caught it like I did. It cost me $107 because the thermostat let me know there was a problem.

[Mark Blatter]

Funny that some of you are worried about what is in your home. What is more worrisome is what is vulnerable in the institutions which we rely on: governments, banks, utilities, healthcare etc.

The hacking tools including those stolen from NSA will get into one or more of those systems one day and it is just a matter of time that someone makes a break through in the evil way, or someone in those institutions makes a mistake that allows others to wreck our lives. You really think encryption can save us all? I am not so optimistic, but I probably won't live long enough to find out how IT may turn out to be more lethal than nuclear weapons.

Simon

Your comment is a concern I have, no doubt. As we see more of our institutions and companies that help drive the economy get hit, I wonder how long til a major crash happens. When something like the Equifax hack happens, it shows that incompetence and greed (for not being willing to spend the money to upgrade systems) are far more likely to bring the system down than evil doers. I just read this abouit the Echo;

A couple’s private conversation was mysteriously recorded by their Amazon Echo device and sent to one of their contacts, igniting privacy concerns about the voice-activated gadgets the online retailer wants to make as commonplace in homes as televisions.

So yeah, I don't personally see a benefit, today, to having an Echo in my home. Tomorrow perhaps, but even less so after a simple glich like this one. In 15 years perhaps it will allow me to stay in my home longer, but we are all gonna die some day anyway.

Going back to Simon's comment, I always think of one of my favorite movies. It is just a movie, but oddly prescient some 26 years later. Ben Kingsly's character, Cosmo, was a little scary.

Cosmo (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001426/?ref_=tt_trv_qu): Posit: People think a bank might be financially shaky.
Martin Bishop (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000602/?ref_=tt_trv_qu): Consequence: People start to withdraw their money.
Cosmo (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001426/?ref_=tt_trv_qu): Result: Pretty soon it is financially shaky.
Martin Bishop (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000602/?ref_=tt_trv_qu): Conclusion: You can make banks fail.
Cosmo (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001426/?ref_=tt_trv_qu): Bzzt. I've already done that. Maybe you've heard about a few? Think bigger.
Martin Bishop (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000602/?ref_=tt_trv_qu): Stock market?
Cosmo (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001426/?ref_=tt_trv_qu): Yes.
Martin Bishop (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000602/?ref_=tt_trv_qu): Currency market?
Cosmo (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001426/?ref_=tt_trv_qu): Yes.
Martin Bishop (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000602/?ref_=tt_trv_qu): Commodities market?
Cosmo (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001426/?ref_=tt_trv_qu): Yes.
Martin Bishop (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000602/?ref_=tt_trv_qu): Small countries?
Cosmo (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001426/?ref_=tt_trv_qu): I might even be able to crash the whole damn system. Destroy all records of ownership. Think of it, Marty: no more rich people, no more poor people, everybody's the same. Isn't that what we said we always wanted?
Martin Bishop (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000602/?ref_=tt_trv_qu): Cos, you haven't gone crazy on me, have you?

[Jim Koepke]

A couple’s private conversation was mysteriously recorded by their Amazon Echo device and sent to one of their contacts, igniting privacy concerns about the voice-activated gadgets the online retailer wants to make as commonplace in homes as televisions.

From the news:

An Amazon Echo user in Portland, Oregon, says she was shocked to learn her Echo had recorded a conversation with her husband without them knowing, then sent the audio file to one of his employees in Seattle.

http://money.cnn.com/2018/05/24/technology/alexa-secret-recording/index.html

The device is always on and always listening. With memory of what was said yesterday or the day before it could be real scary.

jtk

[Pat Barry]

"
The device is always on and always listening. With memory of what was said yesterday or the day before it could be real scary.

jtk"
Yes, it is always on and listening for its keyword. That is local listening, no external communications the way Amazon describes it. It doesn't wake up until it recognizes its name and light's up. There is no memory until it wakes up, again, according to Amazon. If someones has other real information, or something I stated is false, please correct / clarify/ expound.

[Bill Dufour]

"
The device is always on and always listening. With memory of what was said yesterday or the day before it could be real scary.

jtk"
Yes, it is always on and listening for its keyword. That is local listening, no external communications the way Amazon describes it. It doesn't wake up until it recognizes its name and light's up. There is no memory until it wakes up, again, according to Amazon. If someones has other real information, or something I stated is false, please correct / clarify/ expound.

beleive what the article is saying is it thought it heard it's name and then soem commands to record and then send the recording to Some address it already had in it's memory. Kind of like the autofill option.
Bil lD
I

[Jim Koepke]

A friend has echoed my feeling on this and told me about a murder case that involved recordings on Amazon's servers from a suspect's homes on their "helper" devices:


THE AMAZON ECHO can seem like your best friend—until it betrays you. That's because this device is different from anything else in your house. Alexa, the voice assistant that powers Echo and more, is always listening, sending what you say after using a "wake" word to Amazon's servers. Of course, Echo isn't the only voice-assistant speaker on the market, but it sits in millions of homes, and Alexa is headed to devices from companies like Ford, Dish, Samsung, and Whirlpool.
Thankfully, before Alexa can betray you, Amazon is taking steps to push back.
Arkansas police [ http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/28/tech/amazon-echo-alexa-bentonville-arkansas-murder-case-trnd/ ]recently demandedthat Amazon turn over information collected from a murder suspect's Echo.

https://www.wired.com/2017/02/murder-case-tests-alexas-devotion-privacy/ ]https://www.wired.com/2017/02/murder-case-tests-alexas-devotion-privacy/

This case ended up being dropped for lack of evidence.

Search terms > alexa recording in murder case < or > alexa recording in court <

It seems the 'smart' water heater also came into play because of an inordenate amount of water being used late at night.

Another article mentioned a suspect whose alibi was broken by his Fitbit not agreeing with his story of where he was.

Kind of reminds me of an old Twilight Zone episode where the home appliances went against the homeowner.

jtk

[Carlos Alvarez]

A friend just told me she was given an Echo. Had to send it back. Her name is Alexis, and the thing triggered constantly. She didn't ask me or research the fact that you can change the word.

[Chris Parks]

And for all the bad stuff technology brings to our lives we have technology possibly saving one

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/teen-uses-siri-to-call-triple-zero-after-after-bike-crash-in-bush-20180525-p4zhen.html

[Carlos Alvarez]

And for all the bad stuff technology brings to our lives we have technology possibly saving one

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/teen-uses-siri-to-call-triple-zero-after-after-bike-crash-in-bush-20180525-p4zhen.html

Similar things have happened a number of times. Also the Apple Watch has saved a lot of lives by alerting people to unusual heart rate/rhythms that it detects. Just a few weeks ago I read about a guy having a mild heart attack but he didn't feel bad enough to go to the ER. Then the watch told him to.

[Carlos Alvarez]

I had a few neighborhood kids over building model rockets on Sunday, along with my friend who is a teacher. We were in the wood shop, when one of the kids fell and hit his head. Two other kids said he slipped and fell, but that didn't make much sense. The two adults were not looking at the time. Dad took him home to clean him up, and couldn't decide whether a hospital visit was needed or not. Since I have motion-activated cameras in both garages I decided to go see if it was captured. It showed the kid looking wobbly (dizzy), walking a few feet, then stopping. Then his head tilted up and he just fell over. He fainted, didn't slip. That told dad he needed to go to the ER.

When they got there, he showed the video and it had two great benefits. One, they took him in immediately since they could see that he passed out and hit hard. Second, the "did you abuse your child" conversation was very short. Otherwise without evidence they have to assume you may have done it, and involve an investigation.

Another win for home automation and security.

He's doing well and the docs aren't sure what happened. Dad said they had a sleepover and were up way too late. The kid said he felt dehydrated, and dad had just started to walk over to get a bottle of water for him when he fell, which is why he didn't see anything. Hey may have a mild concussion but was over yesterday to play with our dogs and said he felt great.

Side funny: Another kid, while installing a fin, just nonchalantly said, "I hope these fly better than the North Koreans' rockets!"

[Curt Harms]

Similar things have happened a number of times. Also the Apple Watch has saved a lot of lives by alerting people to unusual heart rate/rhythms that it detects. Just a few weeks ago I read about a guy having a mild heart attack but he didn't feel bad enough to go to the ER. Then the watch told him to.

This sort of thing is where 'wearables' seem to have a real future. Being able to monitor things like heart beat and glucose/insulin levels 24/7 without being wired up seems to offer real value. The trick would be insure that the data harvested only ends up in the intended hands.

[Jim Koepke]

This sort of thing is where 'wearables' seem to have a real future. Being able to monitor things like heart beat and glucose/insulin levels 24/7 without being wired up seems to offer real value. The trick would be insure that the data harvested only ends up in the intended hands.

There have been some security issues with Fitbit tracking exposing the whereabouts of military personnel:

https://mashable.com/2018/01/28/strava-fitbit-fitness-tracker-global-heatmap-threat/#jQQm_799hPqq

The Fitbit is a great idea, but like so many great ideas it may have vulnerabilities.

jtk

[Carlos Alvarez]

There have been some security issues with Fitbit tracking exposing the whereabouts of military personnel:

https://mashable.com/2018/01/28/strava-fitbit-fitness-tracker-global-heatmap-threat/#jQQm_799hPqq

The Fitbit is a great idea, but like so many great ideas it may have vulnerabilities.

jtk

That's not a vulnerability, the product is working exactly as intended. But people were allowed to use devices that exposed data that shouldn't be. Same problem as carrying modern phones with GPS and motion tracking, wearing an Apple Watch, etc.