Prices of tools - then and now

[John C Cox]

I was thinking about the "problem" of "boutique" hand tool makers and the prices they charge....

And so I looked up a salary and prices survey from 1900...

for a UK cabinetmaker - "average" salary was $7.75/week (this was reported in american $$ - not £)
One "Average" socket firmer chisel cost $1.25. So a set of 6 "average quality" chisels cost about $7.50 - or right at one week's wages before tax... "Premium" brands like Ward no doubt cost much more...

In 2017 - the average cabinetmakers salary was $675/week... A set of Marples runs $72, Ashley Iles chisels runs $190, and a set of 7 Veritas PM-V11 chisels runs $539...

So why can't we have "Quality" like they had back then with all the hand work and testing? Because nobody will pay for it.... And what we can get is an absolutely fantastic deal compared to what they got back then..... $7.00/4 Aldi chisels - and they work - that's 7 minutes of work to buy a chisel..... Even $30/AI chisel is still less than 2 hours work for an average UK cabinetmaker... What could AI or LN or LV do if they could get us to pay $150/chisel - that's probably half what a Ward made in 1900 would cost new in today's money relative to wages....

I am not complaining about prices... But it's probably no coincidence nobody is gnawing at the bit to get into the woodworking hand tools making market...

[Philipp Jaindl]

The Handtool and Collector crowd only make up a tiny fracture of the Woodworking Industry, lets be honest in the commercial world its all about cost effectiveness + efficiency at the end of the day the tools need to get the job done.
And its almost exclusively Powertools these days anyways the only indispensable Handtools are a good set of Chisels and a Handsaw or two, you're not gonna find companies paying premium boutique prices if other tools get the job done more cost effectively.

What i really do miss is the Midrange of Tools though, theres often only the cheap stuff and the premium prices with no middle ground, id rather have that fixed instead of more "premium" makers.

[William Adams]

Yeah, John Economaki had an interesting bit about this in one of his blog posts, noting the size of the boutique woodworking tool market in comparison to Tiger Woods' salary in his heyday if memory serves.

FWIW, I've decided that I'm going to do my best to put together a wonderful collection of really nice tools to use when I retire, buying some of the fabulous new tools which technology has made possible such as the Blue Spruce Toolworks coping saw.

[Warren Mickley]

In 1796 Benjamin Seaton bought 16 cast steel chisels for 6 shillings 10 pence or just over two days wages (6s 8p) for a tradesman at the time. These chisels were hand forged and ground and filed by hand and had nice tapered tangs with handles fixed. An hour and a half of labor to buy a chisel. Socket chisels, which were used by carpenters, were half again as expensive.

Today we have semiskilled labor making chisels. Some makers can't forge so they are limited to steels that can be machined easily. Some can't do heat treatment on a traditional steel, so that limits their steel choices also. And nobody seems to be able to make a nicely tapered tang. From a craftsman's point of view, higher prices for a lesser product.

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks Warren. Always find it interesting when you chime in with historical perspective!
Fred

[Brandon Speaks]

Isnt the take away from the OP that tools cost less now, even for premium. An average chisel back then cost a higher % of a weeks wages than a premium one does now.

[John Sanford]

In 1796 Benjamin Seaton bought 16 cast steel chisels for 6 shillings 10 pence or just over two days wages (6s 8p) for a tradesman at the time. These chisels were hand forged

Something doesn't add up. Were they hand forged? Or were they cast steel?

[James Pallas]

One good thing about tools today is you can find some at reasonable cost. You can search the whole country and other countries with the net. You can find all kinds of prices and here at SMC you can get info on whether the tool will work. You'll get the full spectrum of advice here from "if the tool was made after 1850 it's junk" to "my brand new xxx chisel is the best thing since bacon was first cut". All that and some new things are reasonably priced as far as current wages are concerned.
Jim

[steven c newman]

Hmmmmm...."40 Shillings on the drum...."

[bridger berdel]

In 1796 Benjamin Seaton bought 16 cast steel chisels for 6 shillings 10 pence or just over two days wages (6s 8p) for a tradesman at the time. These chisels were hand forged

Something doesn't add up. Were they hand forged? Or were they cast steel?

the chisels were forged from cast (crucible) steel.

[John C Cox]

Right.

The foundries produced cast steel pigs. These pigs were sold to forges and other mills. Those guys would roll, form, forge, and work the cast steel pig to transform it from an inconsistent pig with slag inclusions and voids into a consistent homogeneous product which could be made into useful things.

These days - tool steel comes from the mill already rolled into shape in bars, plates, etc...

And so for example forging chisels out of billet these days doesn't really improve the grain structure or grain flow vs simply machining it out of rolled bar like LV and LN are doing. Back in the day - that was not the case, and a chisel that was simply machined out of slab cut off a cast steel pig would make a very poor tool with grain flow going every which way, slag inclusions, voids/defects/cracks, and gigantic huge grain size... Back then - the forge did critical work taking the cast lump of steel and making it into something which had physical properties useful for things other than boat anchors...

[John C Cox]

Another thing I kinda found interesting... What's "premium" and what's "standard" or "cheap".....

Looking through the tool catalogs - the "Cast steel" chisels that received typical "standard" treatment and wood handles were the cheap ones and the "Alloy steel" chisels receiving new "Split proof" plastic handles or special metal strike proof caps and "Scientific heat treatment" were the expensive ones.... For example - in 1964, a Ward's "Cast steel" firmer cost 16% of what their most expensive HSS tipped, plastic handled chisel cost and 25% of what their most expensive conventional chisel.... Their "cast steel" firmer and bevel edge chisels were the cheapest ones they sold... Yet today, Ward cast steel chisels are highly sought out and bring good money where nobody cares about HSS tipped plastic handled chisels...

Kinda like in the 1970's - wood floors were "standard" in houses and Linoleum/carpeting was an expensive "upgrade" - yet now we see exactly the opposite....

It really makes me wonder if nobody really focused on replicating this stuff because it was considered "Cheap stuff"... And why bother spending time and resources replicating somebody's cheap "discount price" product line.... These days, it would cost good money to make chisels that match the quality of those old "standard" cast steel offerings... No doubt the thinking is "Why waste money trying to replicate the junk of the past"... But the truth is that these old "budget" line simple steel tools often did actually work better - it's just that the cry of the day was "New" and "Scientific" and nobody wanted to buy "Traditional".....

[Mel Fulks]

John, I think the "cast steel" of that reference was not the cast steel of the 19th century. It was a complicated expensive
process,and it was ingots of steel that got cast,not the tool. I do remember one catalog from 1960s that claimed they were going to a lot of trouble to get the old cast steel. They made a big deal of it and said it might not be a continuing venture.
The most detailed description I've seen on the old process was in the 11th (I Think) edition of the Britanica Ency. which is free on line. I don't at all doubt reports here of the superiority of new alloys, but 19th century cast steel is still good stuff!

[Warren Mickley]

Pig iron is not cast steel. And pig iron that has been worked at a forge becomes wrought iron, which is not cast steel either. Cat steel is made by melting pig iron in a crucible.

I looked into prices from 1900. I found that a tradesman in England made about $8.25 a week and could buy a set of six Ward cast steel firmer chisels for $0.98 (Melhuish catalogue). So he could buy 50 high quality chisels for a week's pay. Unhandled chisels were considerably less. Nicely formed tang, nicely formed bolster, not too thick, no chromium.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I have a 1935 Millers Falls and Goodell Pratt tool catalog. Here are some samples:

No 1 hand drill: $3.65
All steel miter box with saw: $24 to $34.64 depending on size
No 100 Breast Drill: $6.40
Get this- a 1 1/2" No 552 Solid Center Car Bit was $38.00 Wow! The bits were more than the dril. No 935 ship auger bits ranged from $4 to $15.
No 42 Coping Saw Frame: $1.60

[bridger berdel]

New! Improved! As seen on tv!

[Patrick Chase]

John, I think the "cast steel" of that reference was not the cast steel of the 19th century. It was a complicated expensive
process,and it was ingots of steel that got cast,not the tool. I do remember one catalog from 1960s that claimed they were going to a lot of trouble to get the old cast steel. They made a big deal of it and said it might not be a continuing venture.

Cast steel became obsolete (higher operating costs to produce a product that was inferior in all respects) with the advent of the modern electric arc furnace. There was no reason besides nostalgia-driven marketing to use cast steel in 1960, and there certainly isn't today.

Forging is a different matter. AFAIK it's still the most economical way to produce a part with optimized microstructure along a single direction of expected load, which is a common situation in real designs. Powdered metallurgy can produce equivalent or better results in all axes at the same time, but it's more expensive and so forging continues to be a common manufacturing process.

[bridger berdel]

Cast steel became obsolete (higher operating costs to produce a product that was inferior in all respects) with the advent of the modern electric arc furnace. There was no reason besides nostalgia-driven marketing to use cast steel in 1960, and there certainly isn't today.

Forging is a different matter. AFAIK it's still the most economical way to produce a part with optimized microstructure along a single direction of expected load, which is a common situation in real designs. Powdered metallurgy can produce equivalent or better results in all axes at the same time, but it's more expensive and so forging continues to be a common manufacturing process.

Add in that blacksmithing skill has been in steady decline with the advance of more mechanized metalworking methods and the best chisels overall are ones made a long time ago.

[Patrick Chase]

Add in that blacksmithing skill has been in steady decline with the advance of more mechanized metalworking methods and the best chisels overall are ones made a long time ago.

Not true, it's simply that the best minds, hands, and processes are employed in pursuits other than hand tool making.

Anybody who thinks that a level 30 druid blacksmith from the magical days of yore can somehow out-produce the people who do forgings for, say, aerospace (where steel forgings still see significant use) is utterly delusional. We can start with the fact that the old-timey blacksmiths didn't really have the faintest clue what they were doing at the material level - it was all trial, error, and lore.

Also note that there are mechanized approaches to create forgings, so the implication that the loss of hand smithing skills equates to a decline in quality is questionable. I suppose we could debate all day whether there's any inherent advantage to hand smithing (though the answer is "no").

[Warren Mickley]

Here are some chisels from 1816. Nice and thin, real tang, real bolster, no chrome. How much would it cost to make a chisel like this today?385783

[bridger berdel]

Not true, it's simply that the best minds, hands, and processes are employed in pursuits other than hand tool making.

Anybody who thinks that a level 30 druid blacksmith from the magical days of yore can somehow out-produce the people who do forgings for, say, aerospace (where steel forgings still see significant use) is utterly delusional. We can start with the fact that the old-timey blacksmiths didn't really have the faintest clue what they were doing at the material level - it was all trial, error, and lore.

Also note that there are mechanized approaches to create forgings, so the implication that the loss of hand smithing skills equates to a decline in quality is questionable. I suppose we could debate all day whether there's any inherent advantage to hand smithing (though the answer is "no").

Blacksmithing by hand today is more performance art than blue collar trade.

Drop forging has it's own set of design parameters which don't necessarily coincide with the ideal designs for a woodworker's needs. We end up with short thick blades, round tangs, wide lands, chrome vanadium steel, plastic handles. Those chisels are useful for some stuff, can be made to work for some other stuff and can be mass produced with a good profit margin by the gazillions. The closest steel today to crucible steel is probably w1 or o2. Cv has a lower cost to forge and finish. If you want o1 chisels you can get them but you have to seek them out.

[John C Cox]

Here are some chisels from 1816. Nice and thin, real tang, real bolster, no chrome. How much would it cost to make a chisel like this today?385783

Warren my friend - when I win the lottery, I will sort it out and make some...

I have a suspicion that part of the issue is that elements we consider "Contaminants" in modern steel are actually one of the reasons these old tools had the unique properties they do.. The trouble is that nobody makes steel like this because it doesn't really cooperate with modern high volume industrial production...

[Patrick Chase]

The closest steel today to crucible steel is probably w1 or o2. Cv has a lower cost to forge and finish. If you want o1 chisels you can get them but you have to seek them out.

You haven't looked much, I see.

Lee Valley offers their premium chisels in O1
Ashley Iles' chisels are O1 (hand-forged on a trip hammer no less)
Some of the newer Chinese chisels like the ones WoodCraft sells are W1
etc etc.

I know that certain folks love to harp on the notion that modern makers can only use A2 because they don't know how to deal with oil- or water-hardening steels, but it's bunk. Many of the smaller makers are jobbing their heat treatment out to specialty shops that service industries vastly more demanding than ours. Those shops are perfectly capable of dealing with all of the alloys you list, with tolerances/control far better than was historically possible. Again, one key difference is that modern HT vendors actually understand what they're doing, where their 18th/19th Century predecessors did not. I can't emphasize the importance of this enough. It's really hard to do optimal hardening if you haven't yet figured out what an "atom" is, much less face-centered vs body-centered crystalline structures.

Manufacturers use A2 because it sells. I personally think that it's a poor bench/paring chisel material, but there's no accounting for taste.

[steven c newman]

And, it is not just chisels....there were also hammers, braces & bits, and saws to be purchased...and squares. And, all the other tools a "Mechanic" of the times would need. Might want to price a Complete Tool Kit for both time periods....IF you can....

"..40 Shillings on the Drum....for those 'listed and want to come.."

[steven c newman]

Let's try this.....a tool kit list from , say, 1900...vs....2018
Then list the price for each tool .....handsaws? Drills, and bits? Hammers? Maybe a couple squares? Screwdrivers? Chisels?
In short, if you were to open the tool chest of a workman from 1900, and list all of his tools...including all the planes....

Or, take a Stanley No. 888 tool chest with tools included.....then priced the same set of tools today.
385806
Sitting on a table it helped build. Tool box now resides in Canada...
385808385809385807
The only I didn't place in the box, that was on Stanley's list, was the 18" level. All else on the list went into the box..
385810
Then I closed the lids.