Euro slider vs cabinet saw

[Jon Snider]

I’ve posted here a lot about planning my new workshop. Up until now I have been thinking about getting a SawStop to add to my old PM66 in a central tool cluster w jointer. I build whitewater dories plus furniture, guitars and mandolins, and am thinking it would be nice to have both a rip and dado setup. There is lots of dado work for the boat framing and decking.

My sheet work is mainly 1/4” - 1/2” Meranti and I can get by with a track saw for that if I’m alone. I’ve built a few armoires and a china cabinet using some sheet goods, and will be building my new shop cabinets and miter saw station, hopefully soon. Space is not too much of a concern in new shop.

So ironically, since I’ve just been reading the SMC Blessing or Curse thread, I’ve recently gotten interested here about sliders. I’ve heard of them but never really considered I might “need” one.

Having watched about 20 YouTube videos and read a string of searches here I’m just barely up the road in understanding these. It seems the main players are Felder, Minimax, and Hammer (by Felder).
I’m totally lost when considering the many accessories and options.

Can others who’ve been down this path share their thoughts, including why or why not I need a slider and if so, which one.

Thx much. Jon

[Joe Jensen]

I started WW'ing with my dad when I was 8 years old, on an old Craftsman table saw. For a wedding present after college I was given a 1970s Unisaw with a Biesemeyer fence. I used that until 1990 when I upgraded to a new PM66. Loved that saw until I traded up to a new Sawstop ICS in 2005. In 2009 I traded up again to a Felder 700 Series saw/shaper. I used to bash the Euro slider folks on this forum and then I tried one. Here is what a slider did for me instantly.
1) If you clamp stock to the slider the edge from a cut is as perfect as if off a jointer, really it is. I ordered my saw with a scoring blade and in 7 years I've never even set it up. Perfect edge perfectly straight.
2) It's pretty easy to get the crosscut fence on the slider adjusted for perfect square. With the slider every part I cut that is under 9ft long is perfectly square.
I struggled learning to use the slider as a cabinet saw replacement.
1) I found that great clamps on the slider gives you amazing results.
2) I love the parallel cutting jig for the slider. I now rip most things with the slide and not with the fence like you would on a cabinet saw. I can still rip the traditional way but I like perfection and with the parallel cutting jig.
There is a guy who has a bunch of videos on youtube showing how to use a slider. I'd recommend watching them all before you make a decision.

The Sawstop taught me that not all guards are in the saw, and a riving knife and guard that mounts to the riving knife are great. After using the Sawstop for several years I learned to always use the guard when possible. I now never cut without the guard unless it's not possible any other way.

[kent borcherding]

A very good slider is the Martin T 70. High dollar but worth it. .www.martinwoodworkingmachines.com .cost is in the $30,000.00 range .

If you do any architectural precision woodworking the Martin T 70 will do the job .

Go to the website , very good video of the saw. The video will help you in deciding why sliders are best for high end precision woodworking.

[Chris Parks]

The best recommendation I can give is that I have never heard anyone regret buying a slider. The best part is learning how to use it and saying to ones self, why didn't I buy this years ago. Even some neanderthal hand tool guys like them!:D

[Wade Lippman]

If you have the room and the money it is a nobrainer. I don't have one.

[Chris Parks]

With a shorter table a small slider such as the K3 Hammer does not take up any more room than a cabinet saw and if the cab saw has a 52" fence the slider is smaller.

[Jim Becker]

One thing that's important to note right up front is that sliders are not just for sheet goods. Yes, they excel at that application, but they also do great (and repeatable) work with solid stock, too.

Whether you "need" on is a matter of personal choice or inclination. I will say very clearly, that I'd never want to go back to a cabinet saw if I have the choice, even if I had to downsize to a much smaller slider in the future for some reason or another. I love the format, the precision, the repeatability and like that even with all of that, the majority of cuts don't have any of my body parts anywhere near the blade.

[Martin Wasner]

If you have the room and the money it is a nobrainer. I don't have one.


One thing that's important to note right up front is that sliders are not just for sheet goods. Yes, they excel at that application, but they also do great (and repeatable) work with solid stock, too.

I have the space, I have the money, and I don't have one. The reason being there are better options for sheet stock if you're processing material manually.

If I could only have one saw, I would have a slider though. Just tossing out a different view point.

[Martin Wasner]

I have kicked around getting a short stroke slider, or a rolling top, for cross cutting wider drawer parts.

[John Sincerbeaux]

Slider!!!!!

[Chris Parks]

I have the space, I have the money, and I don't have one. The reason being there are better options for sheet stock if you're processing material manually.

If I could only have one saw, I would have a slider though. Just tossing out a different view point.

Absolutely! A vertical panel saw would be a lot better in a one person workshop I would think as it would be easier to load and it can cut on both axis.

[Martin Wasner]

Absolutely! A vertical panel saw would be a lot better in a one person workshop I would think as it would be easier to load and it can cut on both axis.

And that's why we've got a Striebig.

Even in a shop with a bunch of people, it's tough to beat on sheets. Plus you can gang cut at least a couple of parts at once.

Not overly useful for everything else though.

[Osvaldo Cristo]

I have used a few times a slider saws and read a lot about them... they are better than traditional cabinet saws for almost all, with important exceptions the size and price. I have no space for one of those toys in my tiny workshop to replace my contractor saw and I am not sure if I would have the courage to put the money to purchase one of them... please be aware, as most of the stuff, there are cheap versions also for slider saws and they are an invitation for headache... look for a decent slider saw (and unfortunately it will come at a price).

All the best.

[Rod Sheridan]

Jon, having gone from a cabinet saw to a short stroke slider ( I have the Hammer B3 Winner with 49" stroke), I would never go back to a cabinet saw.

Accuracy, capacity, safety exceed that of a cabinet saw................Regards, rod.

[Marshall Harrison]

I'm not in the market for a slider as they are out of my price range. Though they do look like a great alternative to a cabinet saw.

My biggest issue with them and the Eureka Zone EZ-1 which I strongly considered is that they are so different from what we are used to. There are literally hundreds of books and videos on every technique or jig for doing anything on a more conventional saw. Not to mention all of the after market accessories. With the EZ-1 or a slider it seems to me that I would have to lear everything all over. Having to experiment or learn something new seems like a waste of time and somewhat dangerous.

Maybe one of the slider owners could address this issue as well as how steep the learning curve really is or isn't.

[Mike King]

I'm not in the market for a slider as they are out of my price range. Though they do look like a great alternative to a cabinet saw.

My biggest issue with them and the Eureka Zone EZ-1 which I strongly considered is that they are so different from what we are used to. There are literally hundreds of books and videos on every technique or jig for doing anything on a more conventional saw. Not to mention all of the after market accessories. With the EZ-1 or a slider it seems to me that I would have to lear everything all over. Having to experiment or learn something new seems like a waste of time and somewhat dangerous.

Maybe one of the slider owners could address this issue as well as how steep the learning curve really is or isn't.

It does take time to learn how to use the advantages of a slider. But that just means you are using it as you would use a cabinet saw, and that's no more dangerous than using a cabinet saw. So what do you have to lose?

I virtually never use the rip fence on my saw anymore. In fact, it is out of adjustment and I don't care as it isn't being used...

Mike

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I'm not in the market for a slider as they are out of my price range. Though they do look like a great alternative to a cabinet saw.

My biggest issue with them and the Eureka Zone EZ-1 which I strongly considered is that they are so different from what we are used to. There are literally hundreds of books and videos on every technique or jig for doing anything on a more conventional saw. Not to mention all of the after market accessories. With the EZ-1 or a slider it seems to me that I would have to lear everything all over. Having to experiment or learn something new seems like a waste of time and somewhat dangerous.

Maybe one of the slider owners could address this issue as well as how steep the learning curve really is or isn't.

I'll give it a shot Marshall. I have both, so each time that I use one or the other, the differences are illustrated. On the Felder, you use the carriage as much as possible so the waste is often right of the blade. The conventional nearly always has the waste on the left. I'd buy a slider again if it only had one benefit, the ability to straight line rip. I can process a lot of rough lumber very quickly with it, where the conventional route is tedious. People talk of the trouble ripping narrow stock on a slider, which isn't an issue, it's just usually done on the carriage.

The only benefit that I can see on the conventional saw is the simplicity of the stacked dado. A slider will dado, with a insert shaper head type cutter, which generally makes a better cut, however it's expensive and more effort to install. As a result you don't swap from dado to saw as often on a slider, you plan better.

I don't think it's really a learning curve, it's just a different tool, and you use it differently. Same as you'd use a tracksaw, panel saw, or whatever differently. Some will not want to do that, some will be fine with it.

[Robert Engel]

For a production cabinet shop, IMO its a no brainer. Time saving is enough to justify it.

For a hobbyist shop, its simply a matter of want + funds + space. (They are quite a space hog).

If you've got those 3 I say go for it.

[Jon Snider]

Jon, having gone from a cabinet saw to a short stroke slider ( I have the Hammer B3 Winner with 49" stroke), I would never go back to a cabinet saw.

Accuracy, capacity, safety exceed that of a cabinet saw................Regards, rod.

Rod, Are you able to cut a 4x8’ plywood sheet? I’m guessing if yes only crosscuts. I spent last night reading the Felder pdf catalog online. It seems the various Hammer and Felder saws all go up in price with longer slider tables, and with outriggers as an option or standard. Why do you need or want an outrigger if every fence has 49” or more clearance to the right?

Also, what else does a short slider offer over a cabinet saw and SCMS or RAS combo? It does seem that with the crosscut fence you can do very nice and repeatable work, but it seems to my very uneducated eye that the main appeal of a slider is for sheet work, ripping a new straight edge on rough lumber, and for perhaps safer ripping with hands and body out of danger zone.

Thx again to all who have posted. I’m working to try to catch up.

Jon

[Dan T Jones]

Joe,
I know this is a little off topic but what is the parallel cutting jig? I have a Hammer C41 but still use the fence to rip.
Dan

[Jon Snider]

I'll give it a shot Marshall. I have both, so each time that I use one or the other, the differences are illustrated. On the Felder, you use the carriage as much as possible so the waste is often right of the blade. The conventional nearly always has the waste on the left. I'd buy a slider again if it only had one benefit, the ability to straight line rip. I can process a lot of rough lumber very quickly with it, where the conventional route is tedious. People talk of the trouble ripping narrow stock on a slider, which isn't an issue, it's just usually done on the carriage.

The only benefit that I can see on the conventional saw is the simplicity of the stacked dado. A slider will dado, with a insert shaper head type cutter, which generally makes a better cut, however it's expensive and more effort to install. As a result you don't swap from dado to saw as often on a slider, you plan better.

I don't think it's really a learning curve, it's just a different tool, and you use it differently. Same as you'd use a tracksaw, panel saw, or whatever differently. Some will not want to do that, some will be fine with it.

Steve, our posts crossed in cyberspace while I was replying to Rod. Thanks for your helpful descriptions.

[Chris Parks]

Steve a forum contributor has done a series on sliders that is worth watching



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_A24SfM5KI&list=PLEb0Ut6A7deZhW9Sbf0EGMmT axGrJpTyJ&t=7s&index=7

[Jim Becker]

Maybe one of the slider owners could address this issue as well as how steep the learning curve really is or isn't.

I believe there are quite a few discussions on this here at SMC over the years in addition to this one...

Some things are "the same"; some things are slightly different, but very easy to adapt do and some things require a different approach. How long it takes for the latter really revolves around the commitment from the individual to dive in and be willing to think things through in an unfamiliar way. Some people like change; some do not. The former will have no problem. The latter will likely be unhappy.

[Marshall Harrison]

Thanks for the relies Mike and Steve.

One more question on the subject. Are sliding table extensions added to a cabinet saw a viable option? Or are they more bad than they are good.

A true slider is out of my budgets. I'm just a hobbyist with intentions to maybe sell a couple of pieces to supplement my Social Security.

[Jim Becker]

Sliding table extensions generally work well for larger panels, but otherwise are not really the same as a Euro slider where the wagon (the actual sliding mechanism) butts right up to the blade.

[John Kee]

I'll give it a shot Marshall. I have both, so each time that I use one or the other, the differences are illustrated. On the Felder, you use the carriage as much as possible so the waste is often right of the blade. The conventional nearly always has the waste on the left. I'd buy a slider again if it only had one benefit, the ability to straight line rip. I can process a lot of rough lumber very quickly with it, where the conventional route is tedious. People talk of the trouble ripping narrow stock on a slider, which isn't an issue, it's just usually done on the carriage.

The only benefit that I can see on the conventional saw is the simplicity of the stacked dado. A slider will dado, with a insert shaper head type cutter, which generally makes a better cut, however it's expensive and more effort to install. As a result you don't swap from dado to saw as often on a slider, you plan better.

I don't think it's really a learning curve, it's just a different tool, and you use it differently. Same as you'd use a tracksaw, panel saw, or whatever differently. Some will not want to do that, some will be fine with it.


As far as Dado cutting goes I've used an insert cutter but the results from my Freud stacked Dado, that I had bored and pinholed are just as good with no bat ears. Forrest also offers a Dado set that fits the Felder 30mm bore with the pin holes.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

As far as Dado cutting goes I've used an insert cutter but the results from my Freud stacked Dado, that I had bored and pinholed are just as good with no bat ears. Forrest also offers a Dado set that fits the Felder 30mm bore with the pin holes.

John, I didn't know anyone had a pinned stacked out there, good to know! Nothing wrong with the shaper style cutter, I just personally prefer stacked.

[Marshall Harrison]

Sliding table extensions generally work well for larger panels, but otherwise are not really the same as a Euro slider where the wagon (the actual sliding mechanism) butts right up to the blade.

Thanks. So it sounds like a cabinet saw along with a track saw would be a better way to go if you can't afford a true slider.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Marshall, that's a solid work around plan.

[Jon Snider]

Steve a forum contributor has done a series on sliders that is worth watching



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_A24SfM5KI&list=PLEb0Ut6A7deZhW9Sbf0EGMmT axGrJpTyJ&t=7s&index=7

started looking at these last night and about 3/4 through his entire series. Very helpful. For ripping, how many use the sliding table with either clamps or Fritz and Frank type jig, or parallel fence vs just standard rip fence ripping?

If I were to go this route, the ripping features would be a big reason. I got nailed for the first time in 30yrs with a kickback last fall. Completely my fault even though I thought I was paying close attention. I’ve gained a new respect for the TS and am frankly a little spooked with all of the narrow stock I need to rip for boats such as gunwales and hatch frames.

[Andrew Joiner]

I vote for a vertical panel saw and cabinet saw even if space isn't a problem.
I had a Safety Speed from 1970 to 2005. You get splinter free cuts with good blades. Now in my hobby wood shop, I use a vertical panel saw that I made. I get cutting accuracy of 1/64" straight, square and ready for edging, just like my old Safety Speed Cut.

The vertical saws are the way to go for 1 person. You can store your sheets on edge and flip thru sheets on edge with less effort. I can slide sheets thru without scratching veneer faces. If you store sheet goods next to the panel saw it really minimizes panel handling effort.

[Tim Bueler]

To somewhat echo Martin's alternative.

I caught the Euro slider bug a few months ago. After much agonizing I decided to stay with what I've got, which is a PM-66 and a vertical panel saw. Shop space would've dictated removing both of these for a slider. As much as I wanted the straight line rip capability of the slider I didn't want to give up the benefits of the vertical panel saw. One of the greatest benefits, to me, is that since my sheet goods storage is vertical, I can slide out a sheet and roll it into the panel saw never having to "lift" more than 1/2 a sheet at a time. Even though it's one of the lesser expensive panel saws I have taken the time to tweak and tune it properly and, with the correct blade, it will make perfectly square cuts (perfect enough for me anyhow, YMMV).

The second major deciding factor was the rip capacity of the slider when used for straight lining. Even at 10'6" it is less than much of the raw lumber I get. My lumber supplier offers straight line for a reasonable price...less than I can do it in house actually.

That said, if I ever decide to expand into my adjacent warehouse space a Euro slider would likely be one of my first purchases.

[Rod Sheridan]

Joe,
I know this is a little off topic but what is the parallel cutting jig? I have a Hammer C41 but still use the fence to rip.
Dan

Dan, I'm not Joe however a parallel cutting jig is one or 2 extensions with a measuring scale and stop block, that are at right angles to the sliding table.

You can also use one, and the crosscut fence to establish 2 stops that are a certain distance from the blade. Depending how you set them (parallel or offset) you can rip parallel pieces or tapers using only the sliding table...............Regards, Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hello Jon, yes my short slider will crosscut a sheet of plywood.

The outrigger supports the work piece during crosscutting or straight line ripping.

I don't keep the outrigger on mine, however when I need to break down a piece of rough timber ( for example cut 3 feet off an 8 foot long timber) I use the outrigger. It takes about one minute to put the outrigger on.

Remember that a rip fence only makes parallel cuts, you can't square up anything with a rip fence, the slider will square up stuff, and the outrigger is to support the weight.

With the slider I don't need a RAS or a mitre saw.



Yes, the main benefits are safety, capacity, accuracy, and space savings. In addition having a scoring saw makes absolutely flawless cuts on laminated, veneered or solid wood objects........Rod.

P.S. here's a good video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eV8A3XK3R0I&t=762s

[Joe Jensen]

I still rip a fair amount with the fence. After a year ripping with the fence on the slider was no different for me than ripping on a cabinet saw. I don't get the concern other see with ripping with the fence on a sliding saw. The only thing is that when you see the precision you get when stock is clamped to the slider you will often choose to make cuts that way. The fence for me is used when cabinet saw rip precision is fine. I also joint 100% of the hardwood I rip.

[Jim Becker]

Jon, I do most my my ripping using the wagon and a Fritz'nFranz jig at this point. I sometimes use the fence for some narrow stuff with it laid down in the short position and a push stick, but I've been moving more and more to the F&F for that now. Using the wagon give me a very good surface on the cut and that's important because I don't edge joint material much at all anymore...it comes right off the slider.

[Patrick Irish]

I'm a few days from powering up a used 5hp industrial sawstop I got used. I may add the sliding crosscut to it and see how I like it. I lust for a Minimax Elite 410 due to the 5 in 1 function and a 16" jointer/planer. It's a spendy machine though.

My 2 car I don't think has the room for a slider. The old pm160 planer doesnt move and router table and jointer take up space. My hope is build a deep workshop when we move and maybe find a deal on a used slider eventually.

The hammer K3 sure looks nice. I think I would still get at least a 2 in 1, slider with shaper.

[Jim Becker]

Patrick, the space considerations for a Euro slider that are most difficult to meet in many small shops is in the direction parallel to the slider wagon. For example, my MiniMax S315WS with the 8'6" slider requires a minimum of 19' for full travel. Other brands with similar sized sliding operation will have similar requirements. Obviously, a short slider brings all the benefits except length for longer stock tied to the wagon, but there is an interesting workaround for that using a sled that rides in the hold-down slot that most sliders have on the top of the wagon. So your mention of hoping to have a "deeper" shop is a good thought if you want to move to a slider or combo with a slider in the future to take advantage of the larger capacities in a relatively compact space.

[Jon Snider]

Jon, I do most my my ripping using the wagon and a Fritz'nFranz jig at this point. I sometimes use the fence for some narrow stuff with it laid down in the short position and a push stick, but I've been moving more and more to the F&F for that now. Using the wagon give me a very good surface on the cut and that's important because I don't edge joint material much at all anymore...it comes right off the slider.

Thx Jim I’m rounding third in designing my shop and now wth this new potential idea curve balls are coming from everywhere.

Jointer - could this be replaced w a slider completely? Right now it’s occupying a prime spot next to table saws in center cluster. If I don’t completely ditch it (I still see some functionality with lutherie) I could maybe put it on wheels on a side wall.

Sliding CMS -the Makita is right now my favorite tool in shop. I really don’t see giving it up, esp for all of the compound miter cuts in boat building, but maybe I don’t need an entire wall with a SCM station anymore?

Shaper - I just received an email from my local Felder rep with promotional pricing for saws plus saw/shaper combos. Having now had a sip of the koolaid I could be going deep under. How many of you are using the shaper combo and feedback?

Air to slider - Steve (Extreme Woodworking) mentions in a video on his scoring blade that he didn’t have it on as the compressor was off. Do I need compressed air to the center of shop in my design? I can’t find anything from Felder brochure about air, just mechanical scoring blade w a belt.

thx once again.

[Jim Becker]

Jointer - could this be replaced w a slider completely? Right now it’s occupying a prime spot next to table saws in center cluster. If I don’t completely ditch it (I still see some functionality with lutherie) I could maybe put it on wheels on a side wall.

I absolutely use my jointer for flattening stock...I just rarely edge joint. IMHO, a jointer isn't optional. I use a J/P combo and batch flattening, so most of the time, it's in thicknessing mode.


Sliding CMS -the Makita is right now my favorite tool in shop. I really don’t see giving it up, esp for all of the compound miter cuts in boat building, but maybe I don’t need an entire wall with a SCM station anymore?
I use my CMS primarily for breaking down longer boards for processing into components with the J/P and slider. I wouldn't abandon the tool, but where/how it's used is always open for adjustment. I only have a fence on one side of my CMS at this point, for example.


Shaper - I just received an email from my local Felder rep with promotional pricing for saws plus saw/shaper combos. Having now had a sip of the koolaid I could be going deep under. How many of you are using the shaper combo and feedback?

Shapers have great value for certain operations. While I don't own one, there have been a few times when it would have been preferable over my "poor man's" shaper setup...which is a router and the Benchdog cast iron top at the end of my slider cabinet.


Air to slider - Steve (Extreme Woodworking) mentions in a video on his scoring blade that he didn’t have it on as the compressor was off. Do I need compressed air to the center of shop in my design? I can’t find anything from Felder brochure about air, just mechanical scoring blade w a belt.



No air is required for my MiniMax gear. Perhaps the Martin machine that Steve uses has a different setup. He does use air now for the very nice clamps he implemented, however.

[Chris Parks]

I have found over quite a few years that a short slider which will cross cut a full sheet is perfect for me and actually takes up less space than a full sized cabinet saw if the cab saw has a 52" fence and out feed table. The infeed and outfeed length for both saws is the same for both saws. The chassis and and cross cut fence for the slider is no wider than a cabinet saw and if you want to make it smaller remove the outrigger or do as I did and don't buy the outrigger initially and see if you need it. I worked without an outrigger for some years before I was given a job that made buying it a necessity.

I never use the rip fence to rip, at least I can't remember when I last did as the F&F jig basically removes the need. I have a short piece of rip fence mounted on the head and it is used strictly as a measuring stop when using the F&F jig. I bought a full length fence and cut it into 200mm lengths, kept one and sold the other three to owners who do the same thing. The rip fence has a Wixey DRO on it for repeatability purposes which works really well. If the saw is used in this way the use of a short fence is almost mandatory as the fence has to be shortened to pull it back and walking around it all the time is a PIA. If I do need the fence to rip it is a 30 second job to change it and no further calibration on the Wixey is needed.

I too looked at the feasability of selling my mitre saw but I think it suits me better to keep it and I am not pushed for space as the workshop is fairly large, I already had the saw and I hate selling tools. I still think the introduction and use of the F&F jig has made the small slider the most versatile saw it is possible to use if you can afford one.

[Mike Kreinhop]

My Minimax SC2 is the center attraction in my basement shop, almost literally. I looked for a cabinet saw, but they are not common here like they are in the States. The choices were various grades of contractor saws or the sliders. The professional wood shops in my area use Martin or Felder sliders for production work. Most hobbyists make do with the contractor saws or small sliders.

I can't rip a full sheet of plywood lengthwise in my shop, but this is due to the size of my shop and not the limitation of the SC2. The metric equivalent of a full sheet here is 1250x2500mm. The widest dimension in my shop is 4950mm, so there is no point in my shop where both ends of a sheet of plywood could pass lengthwise unless I oriented the saw diagonally. The center of the blade is almost exactly in the middle of the widest part of my shop, so I would need another 200mm on each side to pass a full sheet through. However, I have no problem crosscutting full sheets. My challenge is maneuvering the full sheets down the stairs. If I have to cut a full sheet lengthwise, I use my circular saw and track rails outside or in the garage on sawhorses and 15mm OSB.

[Jon Snider]

I absolutely use my jointer for flattening stock...I just rarely edge joint. IMHO, a jointer isn't optional. I use a J/P combo and batch flattening, so most of the time, it's in thicknessing mode.
I use my CMS primarily for breaking down longer boards for processing into components with the J/P and slider. I wouldn't abandon the tool, but where/how it's used is always open for adjustment. I only have a fence on one side of my CMS at this point, for example.

Shapers have great value for certain operations. While I don't own one, there have been a few times when it would have been preferable over my "poor man's" shaper setup...which is a router and the Benchdog cast iron top at the end of my slider cabinet.

No air is required for my MiniMax gear. Perhaps the Martin machine that Steve uses has a different setup. He does use air now for the very nice clamps he implemented, however.

Thanks for all the great info Jim. I clearly need sleep as in focusing on the edge I forgot about the face.

How do other tools such as your router table or maybe my extra cabinet saw fit around a slider? It looks like from the videos and catalogs there is room for something level with the extension table of the slider on the opposite side (which could use that same table as it’s own outfeed). Planning ductwork spots under floor right now.

[Jon Snider]

I have found over quite a few years that a short slider which will cross cut a full sheet is perfect for me and actually takes up less space than a full sized cabinet saw if the cab saw has a 52" fence and out feed table. The infeed and outfeed length for both saws is the same for both saws. The chassis and and cross cut fence for the slider is no wider than a cabinet saw and if you want to make it smaller remove the outrigger or do as I did and don't buy the outrigger initially and see if you need it. I worked without an outrigger for some years before I was given a job that made buying it a necessity.

I never use the rip fence to rip, at least I can't remember when I last did as the F&F jig basically removes the need. I have a short piece of rip fence mounted on the head and it is used strictly as a measuring stop when using the F&F jig. I bought a full length fence and cut it into 200mm lengths, kept one and sold the other three to owners who do the same thing. The rip fence has a Wixey DRO on it for repeatability purposes which works really well. If the saw is used in this way the use of a short fence is almost mandatory as the fence has to be shortened to pull it back and walking around it all the time is a PIA. If I do need the fence to rip it is a 30 second job to change it and no further calibration on the Wixey is needed.

I too looked at the feasability of selling my mitre saw but I think it suits me better to keep it and I am not pushed for space as the workshop is fairly large, I already had the saw and I hate selling tools. I still think the introduction and use of the F&F jig has made the small slider the most versatile saw it is possible to use if you can afford one.

Chris,

G’day to you. We visited and surfed up and down the east coast of Aus a few years ago and can’t wait to get back. Wonderful country and people.

If i’m starting to get this now (always possible I’m not) unless you’re using your rip fence in the traditional way, with any rips on the slider the rip length is limited by that slide. I do a lot of 6-10+’ rips (often with narrow stock) so I’m not clear on the value of a short slider , unless of course cost or that’s just all the room in a shop. At least for my application. Cabinets, some furniture certainly would likely be just fine.

[Jim Andrew]

I bought the Hammer K3 with the 79" stroke, and 48" width, but think the 49" stroke with 48" width would work very well now. I do little with sheets, and find most of my projects are 48" or less. Thing is you can always crosscut your sheet, then rotate 90 degrees and rip with the rip fence. Your pieces will still be square. Do not give up the outrigger. The big clamp Hammer sells can be replaced with a small rectangle of steel and a Kreg T track clamp.

[Chris Parks]

Applications vary of course and ripping on the sliding table is definitely limited by the table stroke but maybe not. Felder sell a guide which slides in the table slot to do this.....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--M-Iz2pw1k

[Warren Lake]

id like to see the next steps when its ripped to widths and how it behaves. putting wood down on the floor? then walking on it?

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Chris, now I can straight line 16' with that Felder slider, slider ��

[Brian Holcombe]

id like to see the next steps when its ripped to widths and how it behaves. putting wood down on the floor? then walking on it?

I’m also curious about this, many comment about how a jointer is no longer needed for edges but I’m curious as to how that is possible without the wood moving as I expect it would.

[Chris Parks]

I doubt the results would be perfection but trying to rip 10' lengths on a cabinet saw would be about the same or worse and a sight more dangerous.

[Joe Jensen]

Air to slider - Steve (Extreme Woodworking) mentions in a video on his scoring blade that he didn’t have it on as the compressor was off. Do I need compressed air to the center of shop in my design? I can’t find anything from Felder brochure about air, just mechanical scoring blade w a belt.

thx once again.

I am a huge fan of Mac's air clamps on a slider. I would for sure plan on air to the slider location. Youtube videos on Mac's clamps.

[Ray Frederick]

Jim makes reference to a sliding table that can mount to a existing slider table (locking into the slider's miter slot so to speak) to increase depth of cut. Any links to this table or a home made version ? I don't often do 8' rips from sheet stock but it is sometimes a necessity, I'd like to move away from the track saws completely in the shop.

[John Kee]

My slider is a Felder K700SP with a 126" table. To do rips longer than the slider you need to use 2 parallel guides. The parallel guides aren't cheap but in my world worth their cost. Its not difficult and you don't need a sled which can reduce the depth of your cut. The principle is the same as a fence of the slider but much more versatile. The cuts usually take 2 passes and are virtually perfect with no gaps and ready for glueup. I don't have a pic of the setup but will take one if there is any interest.

[Jon Snider]

My slider is a Felder K700SP with a 126" table. To do rips longer than the slider you need to use 2 parallel guides. The parallel guides aren't cheap but in my world worth their cost. Its not difficult and you don't need a sled which can reduce the depth of your cut. The principle is the same as a fence of the slider but much more versatile. The cuts usually take 2 passes and are virtually perfect with no gaps and ready for glueup. I don't have a pic of the setup but will take one if there is any interest.

I’d love to see both some pics and a link if you can find one. Thx for posting.

[John Kee]

Jon I will try and take some pics today hopefully depending on how the job I'm currently working goes. If you want a link to some parallel guides you can check Felder E-Shop or take a look at another SMC members site, Brian Lamb. He can custom make for any machine. No connection to Brian just we are also members on the original FOG.

http://www.lambtoolworks.com/products.html

[Rod Sheridan]

Thx Jim I’m rounding third in designing my shop and now wth this new potential idea curve balls are coming from everywhere.

Jointer - could this be replaced w a slider completely? Right now it’s occupying a prime spot next to table saws in center cluster. If I don’t completely ditch it (I still see some functionality with lutherie) I could maybe put it on wheels on a side wall.

Sliding CMS -the Makita is right now my favorite tool in shop. I really don’t see giving it up, esp for all of the compound miter cuts in boat building, but maybe I don’t need an entire wall with a SCM station anymore?

Shaper - I just received an email from my local Felder rep with promotional pricing for saws plus saw/shaper combos. Having now had a sip of the koolaid I could be going deep under. How many of you are using the shaper combo and feedback?

Air to slider - Steve (Extreme Woodworking) mentions in a video on his scoring blade that he didn’t have it on as the compressor was off. Do I need compressed air to the center of shop in my design? I can’t find anything from Felder brochure about air, just mechanical scoring blade w a belt.

thx once again.

Hi, the scoring saw does not need compressed air. Felder sells saws with mechanical scoring (My Hammer B3 for example) and saws with electric scoring (an additional motor).

I love having the shaper in the saw as it really saves me space and gives me a sliding table, tilting spindle shaper for very little incremental expenditure. I have both the 1 1/4" and 30mm spindle for my shaper, that allows me to use metric tooling which often is available at lower prices as most of the tooling in the world is metric.

I also of course have the feeder on a flip up bracket, which allows me to use it for the saw or shaper. I would suggest that you buy the optional longer arm on the feeder if you want to use for the saw.......Regards, Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

Applications vary of course and ripping on the sliding table is definitely limited by the table stroke but maybe not. Felder sell a guide which slides in the table slot to do this.....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--M-Iz2pw1k

I have that for my short stroke slider, it's a 3 X 1 metre section of T molding, part number 500-110.............Rod.

[Jim Becker]

Thanks for all the great info Jim. I clearly need sleep as in focusing on the edge I forgot about the face.

How do other tools such as your router table or maybe my extra cabinet saw fit around a slider? It looks like from the videos and catalogs there is room for something level with the extension table of the slider on the opposite side (which could use that same table as it’s own outfeed). Planning ductwork spots under floor right now.

I have a thread here on SMC that details how I added the BenchDog setup to my slider as a "poor man's shaper". It should be helpful to you understanding how you can accommodate grouping with other tools, such as your additional saw. It's really a matter of height matching and making sure anything on the alternative/extra tool doesn't interfere with the slider's wagon or stick up and interfere with material movement for any tool(s) you have in the group.

[Jim Becker]

I’m also curious about this, many comment about how a jointer is no longer needed for edges but I’m curious as to how that is possible without the wood moving as I expect it would.
Although it's not a sure thing, most of the time where a piece comes off where the edge moves, it's been on the off-cut side for me. Not always, of course. And if I have material that's clearly wanting to bend after a cut releases tension, I'll cut proud and then quickly re-cut the edge. And finally...I will go to the jointer if it's necessary. I just don't find it necessary very often when I have flat material on the wagon for the rip cuts which are perpendicular to the faces by nature and smooth because the material is clamped down.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks Jim! This sounds like I was imagining, it sounds like it cuts down significantly on edge jointing, especially of wide panels.

[Jim Becker]

It has for me, Brian. But like I indicated...there ARE going to be some boards that don't cooperate. Running a sharp blade is also important for obvious reasons. Lastly, the board must be held down securely on the wagon for best results...the idea is that it moves through the cut with zero deflection from the operator's hands, etc.

[Chris Parks]

It has for me, Brian. But like I indicated...there ARE going to be some boards that don't cooperate. Running a sharp blade is also important for obvious reasons. Lastly, the board must be held down securely on the wagon for best results...the idea is that it moves through the cut with zero deflection from the operator's hands, etc.

I simply cannot understand the need for clamps on a small slider and as I have never used a big slaider/panel saw I have no idea about the need on one of those. The F&F jig is in reality a clamp so maybe I need to rephrase that comment.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks again, Jim!

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I simply cannot understand the need for clamps on a small slider and as I have never used a big slaider/panel saw I have no idea about the need on one of those. The F&F jig is in reality a clamp so maybe I need to rephrase that comment.

Some boards are a little "squirrely", that's when I use clamps to rip. Say I'm milling wide trim stock, and there is a bow in the board that makes part of the board not touch the table, clamp it. If you don't, you'll get a vibration that yields a rough cut. I use DeStaTo toggle clamps that I rigged to fit the table groove, fast and easy.

[mark mcfarlane]

Thanks. So it sounds like a cabinet saw along with a track saw would be a better way to go if you can't afford a true slider.

Marshall, I hope I don't take your post out of comment, but I wanted to add a note to others reading this thread.

I think there is a common misconception that the 'real value' in a slider is when cutting sheet goods. I don't think that is accurate. Sliders are nice for cutting sheet goods, but they are so much more. Sure, a Lexus has a great cupholder, but that's not all...

With a fritz and Franz jig and/or some parallel guides (the fritz and Franz can be used as parallel guides), I haven't found a hardwood cut that can't be made accurately, quickly, and safely (I do use a SCMS for cutting down 12' hardwood boards). Once the machine is dialed in you can just walk over and cut any part you need, sized to within a fraction of a mm, in a few seconds. Huge parts, small parts,... I moved to a slider about 9 months ago and all I can say is 'mostly pure joy'.

I does, as Jim said, take some initial time/thought when you first want to make a new kind of cut, but after you get your technique figured out it is fast, safe, and a joy. There are a ton of references on SMC and YouTube where you can get a quick answer about different cut types.

FWIW, I suggest that a Fritz and Franz jig might be the best 'first thing' to make when commissioning a new slider. They are great for holding small parts, and ripping, and,... You can start with a very simple one, then you will want to make a fancier one.

[mark mcfarlane]

I simply cannot understand the need for clamps on a small slider and as I have never used a big slaider/panel saw I have no idea about the need on one of those. The F&F jig is in reality a clamp so maybe I need to rephrase that comment.

For me,... clamps hold the work steady so I am ensured a straight, accurate cut. Clamps also hold the work so I can stand 2 feet away and push the outrigger through a cut, standing no where near the blade or the 'ejecta' back side of the blade. I keep the clamp on my slider and pretty much clamp everything. It just takes a few seconds. With pneumatic clamps (perhaps some day), it is even faster. I sometimes use a separate clamp for rips with the Fritz and Franz jig, if one will fit easily. This is just a habit I have gotten into, clamp anything that can be reasonably clamped in a few seconds.

[Jon Snider]

Saw /shaper combo. There are a few threads about this, most several years old.

My my main question isn’t how much you use or like it (but certainly open to comments), rather how the change-over affects your workflow. It seems the shaper unit will get in the way of the saw function, which would be prob 80% of my use. Do you just leave shaper attachments off until need.

N.B. My question is based on a few pics and videos, never seen one (yet) live but working on it.

[Jim Becker]

I simply cannot understand the need for clamps on a small slider and as I have never used a big slaider/panel saw I have no idea about the need on one of those. The F&F jig is in reality a clamp so maybe I need to rephrase that comment.
Chris, yes...with shorter material, especially with the F&F, clamps really are not needed when you've got flat material. They do make it easier if you're ripping longer stock. One could use a ripping shoe, too, so they only need to "hold" one end. One other advantage to clamping, however, is it totally gets any body parts very far away from the cut. How fast one wants to work matters, too. I'm kewel with taking my time for the kind of work I do, but someone doing production will likely prefer faster/simpler. Lots of choices!

[John Sanford]

I have used a few times a slider saws and read a lot about them... they are better than traditional cabinet saws for almost all, with important exceptions the size and price. I have no space for one of those toys in my tiny workshop to replace my contractor saw and I am not sure if I would have the courage to put the money to purchase one of them... please be aware, as most of the stuff, there are cheap versions also for slider saws and they are an invitation for headache... look for a decent slider saw (and unfortunately it will come at a price).

All the best.

While there are cheap versions of sliders (as opposed to sliding table attachments), they are almost unknown in the market here in the US. The Indian and Chinese made machines would be completely unknown were it not for the Internet revealing their presence. While it's been quite a while since I went to the AWS trade show, I don't recall there being any sliders there other than the European makers, which, as you note, "come at a price."

[John Sanford]

What about cutting tenons on the slider? On a cabinet saw, we'll frequently use a tenoning jig, is that the usual approach with a slider?

[marty fretheim]

Jon, I see your in the Springs. If you feel like a trip to Denver area I'd be glad to show you my Felder KF700S and answer any questions I can.

Marty

[Chris Parks]

Jon, I see your in the Springs. If you feel like a trip to Denver area I'd be glad to show you my Felder KF700S and answer any questions I can.

Marty

Jon, feel free to do the same if you want to see mine, a plane ticket will sort it out and i live very close to one of those surfing beaches.:D

[Jon Snider]

Thx Marty. PM sent

Chris, I’ll be sure to drop by next time I’m heading to the Gong. :)

[marty fretheim]

Jon, feel free to do the same if you want to see mine, a plane ticket will sort it out and i live very close to one of those surfing beaches.:D

I gotta ask. Does your cyclone DC spin the opposite direction as mine?

Marty

[Jim Becker]

What about cutting tenons on the slider? On a cabinet saw, we'll frequently use a tenoning jig, is that the usual approach with a slider?
If you want to cut them on the slide, it's not a difficult task to adapt the jig that holds the material vertically onto the slider wagon. That said, cutting the shoulders on the slider using the miter fence and then doing the remainder on the bandsaw is a great alternative...

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Saw /shaper combo. There are a few threads about this, most several years old.

My my main question isn’t how much you use or like it (but certainly open to comments), rather how the change-over affects your workflow. It seems the shaper unit will get in the way of the saw function, which would be prob 80% of my use. Do you just leave shaper attachments off until need.

N.B. My question is based on a few pics and videos, never seen one (yet) live but working on it.

My machine is a CF741, so I've got the shaper/saw combo, as well as a planer/jointer sharing the same space. I like that the shaper is easily available, and is a beast of a machine on its own. I like that the power feeder for it also is usable on the saw and jointer (awesome for face jointing). I like that I can just lower the cutter into the table and keep something common set up at all times.

What I don't like is having to set up the shaper fence every time I want to use it, so make sure you mill everything at once because resetting for that one door stile you forgot, sucks.

If I was building cabinets full time, I'd want a couple dedicated shapers. As I do one off stuff, a saw/shaper is perfectly adequate for my needs, as long as I plan appropriately.

[John Kee]

Had a chance this morning to take a few pics of the dual parallel guide method to do cuts longer than your slider. This is more for production oriented people. I didn't have any oversized material to cut but the pics show the procedure. First thing you typically do is to remove the front fence, move outrigger table back to accommodate the front parallel guide. Your other guide should be at the rear of the slider. Adjust guides to proper width and push material through the blade using guides as an outboard fence without moving the slider until over length is completely on slider. Then make cut with slider as you normally would.

[Joe Jensen]

Saw /shaper combo. There are a few threads about this, most several years old.

My my main question isn’t how much you use or like it (but certainly open to comments), rather how the change-over affects your workflow. It seems the shaper unit will get in the way of the saw function, which would be prob 80% of my use. Do you just leave shaper attachments off until need.

N.B. My question is based on a few pics and videos, never seen one (yet) live but working on it.

I have Felder KF700SP saw/shaper. I currently work in a 3 car garage and there was not room for a separate saw and shaper. I went from a Sawstop ICS and a PM26 shaper to the Felder. I was apprehensive about the changeover from saw to shaper and back. I have worked this way since Jan 2010. I do less changing in the middle of a project because I try to plan a bit better and when cutting I cut an extra part or two so I have backups in case there is an issue shaping. The changeover including tilting the feeder is less than 5 min so that's not a huge issue. I did order the unit with digital power height adjustment so it's easier to repeat a setup in the times when I need to change and keep a setting. I would not go back to a cabinet saw and separate shaper. Having said that, I am building a much larger shop now and once I have it done a separate shaper is high on the list of tools for the new space.

[Chris Parks]

Thx Marty. PM sent

Chris, I’ll be sure to drop by next time I’m heading to the Gong. :)

A local I see!

[Bill Adamsen]

I build whitewater dories ... There is lots of dado work for the boat framing and decking. Thx much. Jon

When building boats (dories) space for the growing "product" is typically the limiting factor. And then I find dado work on boats is often on long pieces of wood (at least for me) where it is easier to operate the dado cutter on the wood, rather than the other way around. That would favor a hand-held router or (sacrebleu) a sliding miter.

I have an 8' slider but often look at it wondering if the space wouldn't be more valuable. My sense is that if your workflow involves a lot of square panels, then that favors either the slider or vertical panel saw. If just a few square panels every once in awhile, your idea of the track saw makes a lot of sense.

[Chris Parks]

Tenons on a slider....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg3YZQx-0qc

[Mike King]

If you want to cut them on the slide, it's not a difficult task to adapt the jig that holds the material vertically onto the slider wagon. That said, cutting the shoulders on the slider using the miter fence and then doing the remainder on the bandsaw is a great alternative...

Even better is if the slider is a combo saw/shaper -- then you simply shape the tenons with the shaper and a rebate head (or two).

[Rod Sheridan]

For a production cabinet shop, IMO its a no brainer. Time saving is enough to justify it.

For a hobbyist shop, its simply a matter of want + funds + space. (They are quite a space hog).

If you've got those 3 I say go for it.

Hi Robert, my slider is actually smaller than the General cabinet saw it replaced, and it replaced the shaper as well, so I really saved space..................Regards, Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

John, I didn't know anyone had a pinned stacked out there, good to know! Nothing wrong with the shaper style cutter, I just personally prefer stacked.

Steve, being Canadian I have an FS Tools stacked dado for my saw, since it's 30mm bore I also use it on the shaper as a grooving cutter...........Rod.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Steve, being Canadian I have an FS Tools stacked dado for my saw, since it's 30mm bore I also use it on the shaper as a grooving cutter...........Rod.

I want one Rod! What diameter do you use?

[Rod Sheridan]

I want one Rod! What diameter do you use?

Steve, since I have a Hammer B3 I'm limited to 180mm diameter for the groover so I have the 6" version.

I bought one for Rich Riddle a couple of years ago as well.

Felder Ontario supply the FS Tools units as well..............Rod.