Thompson full shank SRG with wings??? Spindle/detail with wings??

[Henry Neufeld]

As the title suggests, I noticed that Doug Thompson's SRG has a full, long 3/4" shank. If one were to buy this tool, and grind the corners of the wings off, more similar to a bowl gouge, how would the tool perform? I am trying to imagine that deep wide 'u' flute with wings on the side. More of a curiosity.

And while I am at it, I guess I will ask this too, can one put wings on a spindle gouge or detail gouge? Will it do anything to how the tool can be used? I also have a deep fluted spindle gouge, between a bowl gouge and regular spindle gouge in terms of flute depth. What kind of application does this tool have?

Thanks,
Regards,
Hank

[JohnC Lucas]

You can put wings on anything but it might not be useful. I grind my Thompson spindle and detail gouges using the same jig I use for bowl gouges I just move the V arm closer to give me a more acute edge. I would think the large spindle roughing gouge would be somewhat unmaneageable as a bowl gouge. A good 5/8" bowl gouge is really all you need. I can hog off huge amounts of wood with it. I will have an article and brief video on sharpening spindle gouges in one of the next issues of Woodturning fundamentals. If your an AAW member you will get that online magazine.

[John K Jordan]

Henry, I haven't see that one. I have a 5/8" SRG with a 5/8" shaft and a 1" SRG with a 5/8" shaft. Do you have a link to the 3/4"?

I'm with JohnL in wondering if a large SRG with wings would be useful for anything. Due the shape it might be unstable away from the tip. Let us know how that works out for you. :)

BTW, having a u-shaped SRG ground straight across where the last bit on each side is straight has an advantage when turning spindles - rough the spindle with the curved part then roll the gouge over on it's side and use the flat part just like a skew to flatten the cylinder or taper.

I also grind "wings" on every spindle gouge and detail gouge. They don't look the same as wings on a bowl gouge due to the cross-section of the gouge and flute. The swept-back edge grind is great for shear scraping on the inside and outside of things from vases to bowls. BTW, although it is called a spindle gouge I use them for detail cuts on face turnings like bowls and platters for clean v-grooves, bevels, etc.

Who makes your deep-fluted spindle gouge? Is it one of Thompsons normal spindle gouges? He carries a normal spindle gouge, a shallow spindle gouge, and a detail gouge. If some other brand, maybe a some photos would help, especially a shot directly from the end. As for use, I imagine it would work just like a normal spindle gouge.

JKJ


As the title suggests, I noticed that Doug Thompson's SRG has a full, long 3/4" shank. If one were to buy this tool, and grind the corners of the wings off, more similar to a bowl gouge, how would the tool perform? I am trying to imagine that deep wide 'u' flute with wings on the side. More of a curiosity.

And while I am at it, I guess I will ask this too, can one put wings on a spindle gouge or detail gouge? Will it do anything to how the tool can be used? I also have a deep fluted spindle gouge, between a bowl gouge and regular spindle gouge in terms of flute depth. What kind of application does this tool have?

Thanks,
Regards,
Hank

[Jeffrey J Smith]

John’s right - you can put wings on anything. Dave at D-way Tools offers a 3/4” bowl gouge that is necked down to 5/8” so it fits in standard handles for use as a bowl roughing gouge. A 5/8 bowl gouge can rough anything I’m likely to tackle just fine - the question (at least for me) becomes how much will such a monster be used...the added mass might make getting a large blank in balance a little easier and take a little of the bucking out of the process, but my guess is that I’ll still be reaching for the ibruprophen when the day is done.

[Henry Neufeld]

Ok so the reason I ask what a winged 1.25" Thompson SRG would be useful for, is this:

I noticed on Doug Thompson's website that there is a SRG that is huge, 1.25" with a 3/4" tang. The only handles Doug sells with a 3/4" tang are long (16 & 20 inches). Pictured below:

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The fact that the gouge costs 200 bucks, handle costs 70 bucks, has such a huge tang, and long handle setup, makes me think it has some special application.

I get how wings would not do much on a gouge like that, except that the corners couldnt catch anymore. It just seems this particular SRG was designed to be used on more than spindles. Consider me confused. Could you not still slice/skew cut with a wing if it existed?

Same thing goes for the spindle gouges. To me it appears Doug sells 4 types. Spindle, Deep flute spindle, detail, shallow detail. Pictured below:

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I purchased a 1/2 spindle and 1/2 deep flute. The deep flute is slightly deeper than the regular spindle.

I just want to understand what the deeper flute would do for the tool before I commit to a grind. What effect does the shallower/deeper flute have on how a spindle gouge is used?

I personally have a Thompson 5/8" tang 1/2" v-flute Thompson with an Ellsworth style grind that hogs great for me. The first part of my question regarding the SRG, more has to do with curiosity regarding the particular design of that tool, and intended use. I should really call Doug Thompson again soon, he's great to talk to.

Thanks for y'all's input so far. I am definitely an experimenter and come up with wild ideas in my head. Always looking for ways to apply things in new ways. I'll post up any pictures of my gouges that could be useful to answering my spindle gouge questions. Will be a bit though.

Warm regards,
Hank

[Bill Blasic]

The different flute depths serve a purpose. The shallower the flute the beefier the underside of the gouge allowing greater length over the tool rest, I do not know why one would put wings on the SRG (Spindle Roughing Gouge $200). It is intended for one thing and that is roughing out square stock and it is not meant to be used on bowls. The 1 1/4" SRG has a 3/4" tang and if you have a CBN wheel that gouge will last you a couple hundred years as it does its job a very long time between sharpening. I have absolutely no idea what a "Thompson 5/8" tang 1/2" v-flute Thompson" is, there are Thompson 5/8" Vs and Thompson 1/2" Vs.

[John K Jordan]

Ok so the reason I ask what a winged 1.25" Thompson SRG would be useful for, is this:
I noticed on Doug Thompson's website that there is a SRG that is huge, 1.25" with a 3/4" tang. The only handles Doug sells with a 3/4" tang are long (16 & 20 inches). ...




Ah, that makes sense. I misinterpreted your comment that "I noticed that Doug Thompson's SRG has a full, long 3/4" shank" to mean the SRG was 3/4" was the diameter of the entire tool. I didn't see you mention it was the 1.25 SRG. I don't have his 1.25" SRG and don't see a use for it with what I do, especially at that price. In fact, I don't often use the 1" SRG. Maybe the big one would be good for newel posts and such. Or for bragging rights. :)

BTW, the way he turns 2" of the end of the tools down to fit in standard handles has always irritated me. I often like to sink bowl and spindle gouges deeper than 2" into the handle. This gives me more control for detailed because of the way I grip the tool, especially when turning one-handed. It also lets me keep the same tool extension even when the tool is shortened by grinding. Since I make my own tool inserts and handles I simply bore them larger so the entire shaft can be inserted. This also lets the working end be embedded in the handle for transport.

You might consider making the handles, far, far cheaper and you can make them any way you want. I've made aluminum inserts on the wood lathe with standard woodturning tools.

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...To me it appears Doug sells 4 types. Spindle, Deep flute spindle, detail, shallow detail.


I haven't looked at his deep flute spindle gouge. In fact, I didn't even know he offered one. Maybe since I have a lifetime supply of his spindle gouges and never browse his web site or look at them at shows. I'll have to get one to try out. (I keep six of my favorite 3/8" spindle gouges, each with identical grinds, and swap them out as they get dull so I don't have to stop turning and sharpen. When they are all dull I sharpen them all at once on the Tormek. This way, I only have to set up the jig once and the sharpening is quick.)

JKJ

[JohnC Lucas]

I was given a 3/4" bowl gouge once and after playing with it for a while gave it away. It was just harder to control than my 5/8" and didn't seem to make any advantage. When push cutting the wings can act as a secondary cutting tool and remove large quantities of wood very quickly. You can however take too big of a bite.

[Reed Gray]

Well, I am wondering why you would change the grind. An old variation that you seldom see any more is a continental style SRG which is shallow fluted with a ) shaped nose rather than square, It is forged (heated and bent) with a tapered tang on it. It was used more up on the side for roughing and finish cuts. The more standard SRG tends to be used more with the flutes straight up most of the time for peeling cuts, and some roll it over on the side a bit for finish cuts. As for size, I don't use gouges over 5/8. I do all of my bowl roughing with a 1 inch wide scraper. What the size issue comes down to is how much can you hog off at once without stalling your lathe and beating yourself up.

robo hippy

[Henry Neufeld]

The different flute depths serve a purpose. The shallower the flute the beefier the underside of the gouge allowing greater length over the tool rest

So I get more overhang with less flute depth? However I still do not realize, what do I get from more flute depth? Why would one even use a deeper fluted gouge if it has less overhand ability? Can it take a different cut?


I do not know why one would put wings on the SRG (Spindle Roughing Gouge $200). It is intended for one thing and that is roughing out square stock and it is not meant to be used on bowls.

Well, I am thinking outside the box here, and see a massive piece of steel that could be made to serve any purpose. The SRG cannot be used on bowls because of A: the pointy wings and B: the inadequate tang. I like experimenting in order to find ways of doing things that suit my workflow. I see a $200 dollar tool that could be made to work on more than just one limited function. I realize there is not much that wings would do. It is less about what the wings would do directly, and more that they would indirectly remove the catch area of a SRG shape.


I have absolutely no idea what a "Thompson 5/8" tang 1/2" v-flute Thompson" is, there are Thompson 5/8" Vs and Thompson 1/2" Vs.

The tang, or part that goes in the handle is 5/8" (the bar stock). The flute is 1/2" wide. Doug sells them based on bar size designation. Some places sell by flute width designation. I gave both specs. Its a v gouge, with a 1/2" flute, and the bar is 5/8". Sorry to confuse.


I didn't see you mention it was the 1.25 SRG. I don't have his 1.25" SRG and don't see a use for it with what I do, especially at that price. In fact, I don't often use the 1" SRG. Maybe the big one would be good for newel posts and such. Or for bragging rights. :)

Yeah, forgot the blade width part, sorry for the lack of info at first. I agree with the bragging rights thing. I have a crown rougher gouge. Since it only needs to rough, and does not need a long handle, and is 1" across, I see no reason for a tool like the Thompson SRG. I was trying to invent a way to take advantage of that massive piece of steel.


BTW, the way he turns 2" of the end of the tools down to fit in standard handles has always irritated me.

Same. Agree for the same reasons, just never put it to words. It is kinda annoying. My crown HSS bowl gouge that I removed from the wood handle can be put any amount of length into the handle I own.


You might consider making the handles, far, far cheaper and you can make them any way you want. I've made aluminum inserts on the wood lathe with standard woodturning tools.

Did not know I could turn metals. I will have to try out that custom mdular handle. The main reason I got modular over permanent wooden route, was I can sharpen way easier with the tool out of the handle.


I haven't looked at his deep flute spindle gouge. When they are all dull I sharpen them all at once on the Tormek. This way, I only have to set up the jig once and the sharpening is quick.)
I use a tormek as well, and my high speed grinder is non functioning for this kind of shaping atm...the wheel has been abused and I think the brushes need replaced. For this reason I really like to know what I am grinding on my tool, and how it will function, as the Tormek is slowww, even with the Blackstone Silicon wheel. I get that a shallow flute is a stiffer gouge, but what are the advantages to giving up that stiffness for a deeper flute? What area of application does that have?


I was given a 3/4" bowl gouge once and after playing with it for a while gave it away. It was just harder to control than my 5/8" and didn't seem to make any advantage. When push cutting the wings can act as a secondary cutting tool and remove large quantities of wood very quickly. You can however take too big of a bite.
Is this what a deeper flute spindle gouge is for? The deeper flute to me, says that the tool will have cutting wings.


Well, I am wondering why you would change the grind. An old variation that you seldom see any more is a continental style SRG which is shallow fluted with a ) shaped nose rather than square, It is forged (heated and bent) with a tapered tang on it. It was used more up on the side for roughing and finish cuts. The more standard SRG tends to be used more with the flutes straight up most of the time for peeling cuts, and some roll it over on the side a bit for finish cuts. As for size, I don't use gouges over 5/8. I do all of my bowl roughing with a 1 inch wide scraper. What the size issue comes down to is how much can you hog off at once without stalling your lathe and beating yourself up.

robo hippy
I wouldn't change the grind as of now, as I have come up with no out-of-the box design that would serve any useful purpose. With that large tang and huge size though, I feel like experimenting could be done with it. The styles of SRG you mention is interesting. I rarely use the SRG in peeling mode with flute and wings up. I use it more on the side, and then use the "wing" to skew cut with. If I was going to peel, why would I use a tool that has a curved nose? The accepted use of the SRG compared to the shape of the blade seems totally pointless in turning. At least how it is currently ground and applied. I just see a lot more potential to the tool, than some pigeonholed peeling tool. Especially for $200.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Off the subject a BIT. Big SRGs? I have a big (bragging rights? LOL) 2" PSI SRG. There are a couple reasons I like it. 1, it's huge, I don't think I can ever break it roughing. Especially when taking down the corners, there's a lot of gouge hanging off the tool rest. 2, there's a lot of metal and I can rotate the gouge around and get sharp portions of the gouge all the time, sharpening less. I don't really think I take off more wood, just a lot of fresh cutting surfaces. It doesn't cut "nicely", I have regular SRGs for that. To hog off wood, it's my go to gouge. It's also not really HSS I think. It doesn't hold an edge as well as others.

[Henry Neufeld]

Nahh, that is 100% on subject. Thank you!

That is the kind of info I wanted. I see this big steel, with huge edge. I notice when I use my SRG (1") that only a little bit of the edge is cutting at any one time. This annoyed me...until your info. Why have a huge edge if only a tiny bit can be safely used? You have somewhat given insight into that.

It also helps me more clearly state my goal. I want to conceptualize taking that SRG (which to me cannot break unsafely) and making it into a totally different tool, which is for roughing end grain/spindle oriented pieces, but has more versatility, and functionality. It would be cool if more parts of that edge could be used to good effect, other than just having a new sharp area, but the same type of cutting function.

[Bill Blasic]

Henry by all means please put wings on that tool, I urge you to do it. You think you are inventing the wheel, please proceed.:D

[Mick Fagan]

Interesting thread.

I just went out to the shed and photographed my winged SRG, along with another unmodified SRG to give a perspective.

When I started turning I had very little in the way of tools and knowledge. I bought a cheap 6 chisel turning kit, figuring this should get me going somewhat in the right direction. I already had a Tormek T7 which I acquired shortly after they came onto the market. When I ventured into wood turning, I just picked up the turning kit they market; then figured out how to sharpen turning chisels with it.

The wood turning chisel kit, essentially had two spindle/bowl gouges. I now know they are more spindle than bowl gouges. Seems these kits are mostly used by people doing spindle turning with some sporadic bowl stuff.

Slowly, and I mean that in the sense of shaping in a manner I found better for more use of the supplied SRG. As I traversed further down the turning vortex, I started to experiment with the SRG more and eventually ended up with what you see. It is a great tool and I use it to remove square edges when starting spindle turning. Quite often, I then start to shape the material doing gentle beads and coves. If I'm intending to make something round and long, then it is my chisel of choice.

Attached is the gouge in question alongside a standard SRG (Hurricane unit). The Hurricane and the unknown modified SRG are 25mm in external width (63/64") I have also attached the two Hurricane SRG's I picked up earlier this year when Amazon came to Australia and we finally had access to the Amazon world wide delivery system. Dirt cheap and very effective tools.

The 50mm unit (almost 2") is huge, heavy, doesn't move much, handles like a dream; I too roll it side to side to completely and very quickly remove mountains of material off of square stock. I have started to use the big one for doing some rough tapering when spindle turning. Just hold it at a slight angle and away one goes; huge shavings are a real buzz.

The last picture, shows a long rod being manufactured for an embroidery rack I made for my better half. The tools on my rest are from L to R a square scraper, my modified SRG, 10mm spindle gouge, 25mm skew chisel. I would think about 95% of the work was done with my modified (winged) SRG.

Mick.

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[Grant Wilkinson]

Brendan Stemp has a youtube video on his "winged" roughing gouge. You can see it here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W10WqVuSGo

[John Keeton]

Brendan Stemp has a youtube video on his "winged" roughing gouge. You can see it here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W10WqVuSGoWhich begs the question - why not just use a winged bowl gouge in the same manner? I don't do a lot of spindle work, but most of the time I will use my bowl gouge for roughing the same way Brendan uses the SRG with wings. As to Henry's original question, other than how Brendan, and others I am sure, use a winged gouge for roughing I am not aware of any other uses. So, Henry, grind that sucker and report back on what you find out!

[Reed Gray]

A different approach, which I had seen but forgotten about. You can do pretty much the same cut if you roll the standard SRG over on its side rather than having the flutes straight up. I was out in the shop last night roughing out a bunch of green end grain spindle/box/rolling pin blanks, and using my Big Ugly tool, which is a scraper. It works quite well. Flat on the tool rest for peeling cuts, and up on edge for shear cuts.

Oh, the skew works well for peeling cuts as well.

robo hippy

[John K Jordan]

A different approach, which I had seen but forgotten about. You can do pretty much the same cut if you roll the standard SRG over on its side rather than having the flutes straight up. ...

I think I mentioned above that the flat on the sides of some SRGs work very well for planing a cylinder, just like a skew. I often use a 1.25" skew for roughing a square spindle blank. I sometimes use the SRG for peeling a spindle to make a tenon. JKeeton sometimes uses a bowl gouge for roughing. I like a 3/8" spindle gouge in places on bowls and platters. The biggest Hunter tool is pretty good for roughing, shaping, then finish cuts on both spindles and face work. I hollow end grain with a parting tool. A bedan can be crazy flexible with some practice. I often switch tools several times during both initial cuts and when doing practice final cuts just too see how different tools work in that situation with that particular wood. Sometimes one tool will work best on maple but is horrible on osage orange.

I think the moral of the story is there are many ways to use the tools we have. If we had just one tool in the shop we could still make things.

JKJ

[Robert Henrickson]

I usually use a 1/2" bowl gouge for rouging spindles, sometimes a 1" spindle roughing gouge. I rarely use a 5/8" bowl gouge for anything, even larger bowls or roughing spindles; the 1/2" gouge can remove large amounts quickly. I do most work on platters and spindles with detail gouges.

[Henry Neufeld]

I think I mentioned above that the flat on the sides of some SRGs work very well for planing a cylinder, just like a skew. I often use a 1.25" skew for roughing a square spindle blank. I sometimes use the SRG for peeling a spindle to make a tenon. JKeeton sometimes uses a bowl gouge for roughing. I like a 3/8" spindle gouge in places on bowls and platters. The biggest Hunter tool is pretty good for roughing, shaping, then finish cuts on both spindles and face work. I hollow end grain with a parting tool. A bedan can be crazy flexible with some practice. I often switch tools several times during both initial cuts and when doing practice final cuts just too see how different tools work in that situation with that particular wood. Sometimes one tool will work best on maple but is horrible on osage orange.

I think the moral of the story is there are many ways to use the tools we have. If we had just one tool in the shop we could still make things.

JKJ

Yes exactly. This is really what my question is trying to get at. What does that shape excel at, what would it look like if ground in certain ways, how it would perform, etc.

This is in order to learn, how the different geometric features that make up the overall shape of different tools affect how it can be used and how the grind can be shaped to suit that use.

There are physical reasons, represented in the geometry of any given tool that make it do certain things when certain grinds are done on the end. For example there are geometric design elements that:



make a detail gouge work better with a more acute point
make a parabolic fluted bowl gouge work better with an ellsworth grind
make a spindle gouge better for coves with a more rounded, less acute nose.
make a u flute bowl gouge work better with "traditional" non swept winged grinds


I have heard or read all of these things. Some by experts, some by experienced hobbyists. I have never heard anyone except Stuart Batty get into actually why the shape of a tool changes how it should and/or can be ground. I get that these are accepted truths and work, but I want to know why, so that I can take those concepts and apply them to any given tool based on how it is designed.

To know these "whys" to me, means I can take a given shape and start messing with how it cuts, and see if I can expand the capabilities of a piece of metal that I own, in order to make it work for me better. I can do this because I theoretically learned how the different physical elements effect function. Or even more simply and honestly more importantly, I can buy a tool, and see, "oh, this has a slightly deeper, wider flute than other "U" gouges, it may be suited well for _______."

I appreciate rules, but with any art or craft, you need to know the rules, so that you can eventually know how to break them. I do this for the art and the passion of chasing a mastery that I may never achieve. I have a personal need to be able to develop things that work for me. I am not saying I am inventing anything, as Bill Blasic seems to be snarkily suggesting. In fact, I am sure others have had this thought.

I knew I had seen it somewhere, but forgot Brendan Stemp's name. But because I know others have actual anecdotal experience with how their different tools work for them...well...that is exactly why I am here asking what the underlying principles are behind doing such a thing. This leads really to my main goal here, which is to figure out what the best application would be for this Thompson deep fluted spindle gouge. It has a wide flute, slightly deeper than a normal Thompson spindle gouge. It seems to me that this would make it perform differently than a normal spindle gouge. If I knew how the wide, slightly deeper flute affected how it worked, then I could grind it and apply it where it was most useful to my workflow.

I am really getting some good info from this, thanks y'all.

Warm regards,
Hank.

[Bill Blasic]

Thanks Reed I have no problem removing tons of stock with the conventional grind on the Thompson SRG flat or on its sides.

[Henry Neufeld]

I should say, the skew to me, is the easiest tool to use, and the easiest to understand why and how it works. It is just a flat edge with a skewed angle in order to create a point for reaching. I wish gouges made sense to me like the skew.

I have different gouges with different grinds, some work well for me and some do not. I also go to do certain tasks sometimes, and find myself lacking the true perfect solution for me.

It would be nice, to look at any of my gouges, see how it is geometrically shaped (deeper/shallower flute, wide flute/narrow, shape of flute, amount of steel under flute, etc) and then look at how it is ground, and be able to understand why it is working the way it is. Then, if it is not working how I want, I can decide how to try and change it's application to work how I want.

It does me little good, to hear someone say that any given thing would not have many uses. The thing only has to A: have one use to me, and B: work well for that use.

[Henry Neufeld]

I am not sure if you all have thought of this, but the wide circular shape of the SRG flute means that the type of chip that it takes is vastly different than a bowl gouge which, even with a "u" flute, has a very acute cutting area. A flatter section of the edge is contacting the wood with a tool fluted like an SRG. I am not sure if this means anything.

[Reed Gray]

I have tried bowl gouges on spindles, and still prefer the skew, SRG or Big Ugly, they just seem to work better. For any one going to the Symposium, do make a point to check out Eric Loffstrom. His peeling cuts, and approach to turning are 'different'...

robo hippy

[Kyle Iwamoto]

I am not sure if you all have thought of this, but the wide circular shape of the SRG flute means that the type of chip that it takes is vastly different than a bowl gouge which, even with a "u" flute, has a very acute cutting area. A flatter section of the edge is contacting the wood with a tool fluted like an SRG. I am not sure if this means anything.

I have a 3/4" Sorby bowl gouge, which is almost an inch across. I have it sharpened with swept back wings, same as all my other bowl gouges. I tried using it in the "traditional" SRG fashion, handle down, flute up. It works OK, not as much wood removal as the regular 1" SRG. May be due to what you're saying. It's also a way different angle, that could have something to do with it. BUT, used with the bowl gouge fashion, handle level, flute leading the cut it does cut really well. Mush faster. So, if you do sharpen your SRG with the swept back wings, you could try using it like a bowl gouge on the side. Neither method removes wood as fast as my monster 2" PSI roughing gouge.

[Henry Neufeld]

Just spoke with Doug Thompson himself. Was as always an extended, and pleasurable conversation spanning subjects from tools, business, life, and of course turning.

So I asked about the SRG that he sells. 1.25" across the flute, 3/4" round 2" tang. He told me that the people who actually end up buying them, will grind them into giant bowl roughing gouges. A very very huge bowl gouge! Neat!

As I suspected, that huge piece of steel Doug sells is at least determined to be useful on bowls by pros who according to Doug "regularly turn and sell huge 36" inch plus bowls for $1000 and up"

I would assume that in order to be used safely, the wings would have to be taken back, ground into a fingernail shape.

Another thing Doug told me, is that his "bottom bowl gouges" used for finish cuts on the bottom of bowls, are actually 100% identical to a SRG shape: half circle flute, flat grind across the front, 60 degree bevel angle.

All of this to me confirms that the shape of a tool does contribute to use applications, but does not necessarily put a hard limit on what a tool can be used for.

What I really wanted was a tool that could be used for slicing cuts, like a skew, but could be used in a push or pull fashion on the outside of a bowl or hollow form. I very much like the results this kind of cut gives me, and to be able to apply this outside a bowl form would be superb for my workflow.